Archive Result

1Soundfile 199871102GR&RTMN1_01

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche & Robert Thurman

Location ??

Topic Tibet Mystic Nation

Transcriber Vicki Cahill

Date July 25, 2021

0:00:27.7 Robert: And I’m very happy to see all of you here, on this course. And talk and so forth. We’ll talk on the history of Tibet and its sort of spiritual legacy, which is the first event actually in the, on the calendar there’s a slight error. It really is co-sponsored by the Tibet House. By the Institute of Buddhist Studies and also by the Tibet House. But at the time we did it, the Tibet House was not yet existing. So, I must have meant the Office of Tibet, and put the Office of Tibet. But the Office of Tibet and the Tibet House are really very related. The Dalai Lama’s office in the United States and the Tibet House will be the cultural embassy of the Tibetan people in the United States, when it’s built. And so, we are now in the Tibet House. This is now the Tibet House. The Open Center being open. It has a center which is open. And now we can, it can be the Tibet House for tonight. And so, what we are doing is something very, actually I teach a course in Tibet at Amherst College, where I usually teach. One of the places I usually teach. And in that we have fourteen weeks, a semester, in which we have twenty-eight hour and a half classes. And still, I always towards, towards December of the fall semester like that, I’m wondering, you know, when we’re going to get started in learning about Tibet. We cover tremendous amount of territory and the students also read approximately a hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty pages a week. And I lecture on that, those subjects and still by the end of the fall system, we have not really touched on the culture of Tibet. And really, really, it encompasses its dharma and its teachings and its history and so on. So, what we are going to do in this six sessions, is we are going to do something like that. We’re going to try to give the people a feeling of what is Tibet and what is it that the big fuss is all about. Many of you already probably know a good deal about Tibet. And some of you probably know very little. So, those of you who feel it’s over, it’s too far ahead, please be patient and we’ll have question sessions at the end of each period of time, between before breaks and then you could ask your questions. Please speak up. But ask your question. Some of you will feel that it’s a very pedestrian for you. So, those of you who do that, please take your. You know, please be patient with the rest of us. And perhaps, you could follow the adage of a famous Tibetan lama. Oh, actually I should put this on. Shouldn’t I? I’m being very tantric(????).

0:03:04.0 Famous Tibetan lama, who used to, as he grew older and older, after being in many teachings, which were complete with initiations and very advanced and extraordinary teachings and so forth, surprised some of his disciples and when he was quite old in that he preferred most of all when he was ill and he couldn’t go to all the sessions of a teaching that were given by some other great teachers in Tibet. And when he could only go to some of the teachings, he would always go to the beginning classes. If it was a one month lecture, he would go to the first few days always. And his disciples said, “Why do you go to first few? Why don’t you go to the last few, when they are at the highest teachings?” He said, “Because the highest teachings are always taught at the beginning. The highest teachings are the simplest thing; what is Buddha? What is the dharma? What is Sangha? What are the three refuges?” That’s of course in the context of Buddhism. So, those of you who feel you are advanced, perhaps we can rehear together and rethink the elementary things. And they will even have a heightened significance for you perhaps in this context. Now, tonight I should announce. Now, of course, Gelek Rimpoche is my team-mate all throughout this series. And he will come. He is coming, as I am coming from Massachusetts, he will come from Michigan. From Ann Arbor, every Monday for the session, that time. And he and I will switch back and forth, go forty minutes, forty minutes, sort of like that, throughout the two and a half hour. It may run over a little bit sometimes; hours. And in addition, we had planned to have. We have invited four or three other different lamas, of whom I’m very disappointed to announce, the first of whom has not, at the last minute, been able to come. Harold Talbott and Tulku Thondup from Providence, or from Massachusetts, pretty much at the last minute, informed me that they wouldn’t be able to make it, due to health reasons. Which we’re very disappointed about, but we got instruction from them about what we should present. And so, we will do that. We luckily have several very good books written by Tulku Thondup and Harold Talbott together and we will refer you to these. Now, another thing, just introductorily, I have brought here, with some, with some lugging, with some effort of lugging, a stack of books. And the reason I bring. I can’t really refer to this stack of books. But the reason I brought this stack of books is to encourage you all and to exhort you in a certain way. And that is that, what we are doing here. You know, sometimes in these kind of courses one goes to, one sort of goes to get enlightened or goes to learn some particular skill or do something. Oh lotus, please, Rimpoche. Come up. And this is Gelek Rimpoche, Ngawang Gelek Rimpoche. Presently from, previously from Tibet. There Rimpoche0:05:45.7 (Tibetan) And nowadays from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. I just was starting anyway, to get us going. From the University of Michigan Ann Arbor. And who was also one of the early workers in India, with the Tibet House in New Delhi. The previous Tibet House that we are hope, we are sort of trying to imitate by making a Tibet House here in America. A very important institution. Those of you who have been to India have visited, I’m sure, Tibet House in New Delhi.

0:06:19.8 And Gelek Rimpoche was an early person working there. 0:06:22.6 (Tibetan: RT and Rimpoche…) 0:06:38.6 So, now, I have a thought to begin, with this story, that some of you may have heard before. But just sort of, just as a good omen at the beginning, even though the first topic is actually the three phases of Buddhism in India and their transmission around the world. Which we need to, go into that background in a very abbreviated form, to understand something about Tibetan Buddhism. But before that, I want to start, as a good omen, this story. Before his teacher, Amitabha. This is a myth that comes from the Karandavyuha Sutra, it’s particular Indian sutra which they have in Tibetan translation. Before his teacher Amitabha, Arya Avalokiteshvara vowed, may I have the opportunity to establish all living beings in happiness, beginning with those in the land of snow. That is Tibet’s name. Tibet’s name is actually not Tibet. It’s Bo. The name of Tibet is Bo. It’s B O umlaut. Sort of Bo, like that. They pronounce Bod which doesn’t mean bod. It’s Bo. And Bod Kala Gangs(?)0:07:41.0 it is sometimes called. Kala Gangs(?) 0:07:42.4 means Land of Snow. So, here you ??? 0:07:45.7, beginning with those in the Land of Snow. Until I relieve all living beings, may I never, even for a moment feel like giving up the purpose of others for my own peace and happiness. If I should ever think of my own happiness, may be head be cracked into ten pieces, like the adaka(?)0:08:04.2 plant. And may my body be split into a thousand pieces, like the petals of a lotus. Having made this promise, he traveled throughout the six realms of samsara, teaching all living beings the eighty-four thousand teachings of the dharma, by means of the six syllable mantra, OM MANI PADME HUNG. In each realm, he freed beings from their particular miseries and taught the dharma to those who wished to hear it. Finally, he went to Tibet, the land of snow. Gazing over the Tibetan nation from the peak of the red mountain, he had a vision of countless beings burning alive in an ocean of fire. Witnessing the misery of these beings, he wept heartfelt tears. The goddesses Tara and Bhrikuti, 0:08:44.6 miraculously appeared from his teardrops and encouraged the bodhisattva, promising to help him with the great task of teaching the Tibetans. This was before the Tibetans had themselves become a dharmic people, in other words, when they were just a worldly people. Avalokiteshvara went among the Tibetans and taught them the mantra, OM MANI PADME HUNG. [Please come in]. OM MANI PADME HUNG. Pronouncing the words of the dharma with infinite compassion. Then he entered the meditation of bodhimind, making a long and intense effort to dispel the misery of beings and bring them to happiness.

0:09:17.2 Exhausted by his efforts, he entered the meditation of restoration. For a second time he gazed out over the land and saw that he had not helped even one hundredth of the beings of the Land of Snow to enter the bliss of liberation. He was seized by bitter sorrow and for an instant, the thought arose, “What is the use? I can do nothing for them. It is better for me to be happy and peaceful myself.” To attain nirvana himself, attain samadhi and forget about the difficult Tibetans. At that very moment his head cracked into ten pieces and his body split into a thousand parts. In agony, he cried out to Amitabha Buddha, who appeared before him in the sky. Placing his hand on Avalokiteshvara’s shattered head, Amitabha said, “All circumstances come from cooperative causes, conditioned at the moment of intent. Every fortune which arises to anyone results from his own former wish. Your powerful expression of supplication was praised by all the Buddhas. In a moment of time, the truth will certainly appear.” Then Amitabha blessed him and transfigured the ten pieces of his head into ten faces. One for each of the ten transcendences. He also blessed the broken body, transfiguring the torn flesh into a thousand hands, each with its own wisdom eye in the palm, so that the bodhisattva had a thousand eyes and his vision became as that of the thousand buddhas of the golden eon. On the crown of the ten-faced head, Amitabha placed himself and he radiated boundless inconceivable light. Since that time, Arya Avalokiteshvara has often manifested himself in Tibet. His various forms have included laymen and lamas, the first of the three great Tibetan Dharma kings, King Songtsen Gampo who ruled in the seventh century, with his incarnation and his two Buddhist queens and so on. The great Dharmaraja Trisong Detsen in the eighth century, the great Dharmaraja King Ralpachen (?)0:11:13.4 and so on, he goes on talking about the deeds of Avalokiteshvara. I just wanted to read this in the beginning, just as a little bit of a kind of explanation of the “Tibet, the Mystic Nation” idea. Because this is a nation, that this is from, that was from Geshe Wangyal’s excellent book, The Door of Liberation. Which is still, is still is a marvelous book. It’s an older one, but it’s really still very great. And he was my own original teacher and a friend of all of us. And I’m pleased to read his, as a good beginning. So, the myth, the intent of Tibet, the Mystic Nation meaning, Tibet as a modern nation is a very unique one in the history of the world, in the sense that the Tibetan people sort of adopted their national identity had become completely intermingled with the dharma, the Buddhist dharma. So, that they sort of were, Tibetan, Tibetan’s legitimacy as a nation was conferred by the Tibetan’s identification with the Buddha dharma. So, that in that sense Avalokiteshvara is sort of seen as the incarnation, as an incarnation of all their rulers and their, and their entire national purpose is part of the purpose of sort of Buddhism which is liberation of beings, the achievement of enlightenment, so forth, non-violence, this kind of thing.

0:12:32.1 This is a very strange kind of national identity because most national identities give legitimacy to the nation just as itself and therefore usually allow a nation to be nationalistic and therefore treat other nations in some way less than themselves. And sort of have a national ego, like an egotistical person might have a personal ego. And whereas in the Tibetan case, since that national ego has become identified with the selfless ideal of Buddhism, they’re in this awkward position of not being able to be aggressive with other nations. Of not being able to consider that they should just be themselves as they are. But somehow their national legitimacy comes from their identification with Buddhism. It puts them in a very complicated situation. For example, today they are under a state of invasion and so forth, an occupation. But they are unable to mobilize as a nation like say, the Muslims in Afghanistan and have a holy war the whole ty why(?) 0:13:25.9. Because they’re not able to really think of a violent war as a viable thing to do, because of this sort of Buddhist identity. Now I’m jumping way to the end, but this is somehow, something very peculiar and special about the Tibetans, the Tibetan national identity. So peculiar in fact, that many people have come to think that the Tibetans didn’t have a national identity. Because precisely they have said that what it means to have a national identity was different from normally what we think of nationalism where it’s sort of the inflation onto the scale of a nation of normally personal egocentrism. And so, the ability to therefore do violence to others and be selfish about them and so on. So, this is. Now this. Now this doesn’t mean. I don’t need to say by this that every Tibetan is a selfless savior, a selfless Buddha by any means. And the Tibetans do and will fight, and they did have this and that problems and their history was a long and checkered one. Furthermore, when they early began, they were very rough and tough. They conquered huge area of central Asia. Sort of like Genghis Khan. They had their own time of being conquerors. But nevertheless, as a whole, the nation did reach this state in the modern time of this kind of weaving of the dharma, of religion, of selflessness, into the notion of a national self. Into their very being as a nation. And this made them of course, extremely vulnerable to the problems of modern planet with its nationalism going around. And so, what we want to do in looking, therefore, this is our angle in other words in the whole thing that now will follow. What we want to do, therefore, in exploring the history and culture of Tibet, is you want to come to understand this peculiar type of nationalist, national identity, of national being. And see how it grew over many, many centuries And where it, where it came from and what were its ingredients because it’s something, beside from just the intrinsic interest of Tibet itself as a, as a subject. This is a, this is also something peculiar and unique and interesting in the world today.

0:15:28.3 Now, with that as a preamble, I want to begin very quickly with the first section and this has to do with the three phases of Buddhism in India. Now it may not be known to many of you, but it may be known to some, that there are basically three types of Buddhism in the world. In the. At least three. I mean, each of those has many, many subdivisions, but there are at least those three. [There’s number of seats over here if you want to come across. Quite a few. Please, just come right across. No. Not at all. Oh, meaning of course, we do. We do excuse you. Yes, definitely] So, these three types, I like to call; monastic Buddhism, messianic Buddhism, and apocalyptic Buddhism. Monastic Buddhism was the teaching of Buddhism that is identified with the earliest period of Buddhism. I like to say from, you can roughly think of it as a five hundred year block from about five hundred A D until 0. Something like that, in which monastic Buddhism is predominant. And monastic Buddhism emphasizes the difficulty of ordinary life and ordinary culture and the necessity of maintaining a space which is extraordinary, which represents a separate type of culture, which is anchored. Which is not only for monks and nuns, but which has its anchor, I mean it includes laymen and laywomen, but it has its anchor in the monastic community. Those laymen and women are sort of centered around the monastic community. The monastic community idea was in fact invented by the Buddha. And it is that community. Because in order to withdraw to a separate kind of world, a world of not. Whereas ordinary world is the world of ignorance and greed and tribalism and violence. Tribes fighting and empires struggling and so forth and individuals struggling and it’s mutual exploitative and so on. This other world is based on non-violence, on wisdom, on peacefulness, and calm, on. The monastic, you know, withdraw, in other words, from the sort of the arena of ordinary life. And then, that Buddhism spread from the time of Ashoka to Sri Lanka, ancient Sri Lanka. And from Sri Lanka to Burma, and Thailand and (turned in??) 0:17:50.1 to southeast Asia and its, its residue is what we come to know as southern Buddhism nowadays. And it emphasizes the monastic ideal and the fact that the ideal is to, to withdraw from, sort of doesn’t really talk much about what to do with the main world. Sort of leaves the main society’s a fairly hopeless case. After about five hundred years, another type of Buddhism arose in India, which was a kind of Buddhism that was not content to simply create a sort of separate enclave outside of society, in which, which people could retreat. And this is not because it found something unsatisfactory about that, that ideal.

0:18:29.7 The next phase did not reject the phase of monastic Buddhism at all. It simply had developed in the monastic communities. In particularly, in India. Such a strong beachhead you could say, for sort of sane life had been established that it was time to reach out from there and to go back into the ordinary life and try to change the ordinary society. And that is why I call it, that’s why that’s called, it is called in Sanskrit, Mahayana Buddhism or the great vehicle Buddhism but I call it messianic Buddhism because it became an idea where the individual who could withdraw themselves and could do for something for; could be calm and peaceful and could not get dragged into desire and ignorance and so forth, themselves. Now, took up the vow and the resolve to do something for all others. To save and transform the whole society. The whole universe actually. Just as Avalokiteshvara in that little excerpt that I read, took this vow that he would do something for the entire universe. He took a messianic vow basically. He insisted that he was not only going to save himself, but he was going to save all others. So, that’s another five hundred year period. The period of Mahayana in India or the period of messianic Buddhism from about zero to five hundred, you could say, its main, its main predominance. Although, important to recognize is that within itself, it preserved the monastic Buddhism. It made no effort to destroy monastic Buddhism. So, it was not supplanting it, it was adding on to it. Then about, from about five hundred came in what is known in Sanskrit as the Vajrayana or the Diamond Vehicle or Tantrayana sometimes, the tantric vehicle. And this was based on, again, not a rejection, it’s often wrongly seen. For example, the life of Naropa is seen to imply criticism of monastic Buddhism and messianic Buddhism. That somehow now the Vajrayana Tantric peoples are going to show the real thing and that other stuff was just, just kids’ stuff. Type of thing. This is completely wrong. The, the Vajrayana Buddhism or apocalyptic Buddhism as I like to call it, was again based on the success within Indian civilization of the monastic Buddhism and messianic Buddhism. Which had produced over a thousand years, a peaceful, pacified type of society. A society in which women were relatively liberated, which the arts flourished, in which there was great wealth, in which there was very little warfare and of course, unfortunate therefor society, which was extremely vulnerable to the invasion of outside war, barbarian type of, you know, rough fighting, type of people. But a very civilized situation.

0:21:02.3 And so, based on that, the apocalyptic Buddhist movement said, well, let’s not wait until millions of years in the future to transform this universe and all these beings. Let us try to achieve a shift of dimension, wherein we can attain the Buddha’s vision now, of a liberated perfected universe. So, we can see it in the immediate reality. That’s why I call it “apocalyptic”. Apocalyptic doesn’t mean some sort of end of the world really. Apocalypse means revelation in Greek. It means taking off of coverings and things and immediate revelation of the Buddha’s vision of reality, in which even time is transcended. And therefore, there’s no need to wait for historical future in we in which time the millennium will have come. The millennium can be realized immediately by those who, who turn their minds in a certain way. Who enter into a certain kind of a teaching, enabling them to achieve a kind of dimensional shift, let us call it. And this apocalyptic Buddhism therefore simply did not reject these earlier phases at all. But it added to them a certain final dimension, that I would like to call a kind of high technology. High technology, not of external technology, but high interior technology. A technology of chakras. A technology of mantra. A technology of visionary construction and imaginative yoga and so forth. A very extraordinary kind of technology which was hen refined right after for another five hundred years. And what’s finally and continues to exist in India, its Buddhist form until about even thirteen, fourteen hundred. And then even when Buddhism was destroyed in the external Indian society, by various external invasions, invasions from the outside, it permeated into other aspects of Indian society. So, it still existed there. But that’s another story. Now, the reason for telling about these three things is because, the form of Buddhism that Tibet began to receive, was note, around in the seventh century. The common era. Really was, say you(?) 0:23:06.0 would say fifth century some early traces. But really hard, begins to work hard around the seventh, eighth century. And therefore, the form of Buddhism it gets is a form of Buddhism that has built into it already, these three layers. And in fact, the Tibetans themselves consider that all three were taught by the Buddha. And that they sort of unfolded as the Indian civilization matured. And they were kept, they were sort of esoteric in the early period and so only you, all you heard about was the monastic Buddhism. Then all you heard about was messianic Buddhism. Then you could hear about all three. After, after the society had matured. But westerners say that they you know, they were, created as the society matured because they don’t believe there’s such a supernatural being, or super ordinary being like a Buddha, who would sort of transcend history at a single bound. Not just tall buildings, but history. And see thousands of years in the future at a single bound, naturally in our modern Western mind, we can’t believe such a thing could exist. And therefore, that someone would, sort of engage an engine of civilizational development that would then run through peoples’ hearts for thousands of years or something inconceivable to us. And therefore, the western historical thing is that they just developed as the society developed. The two really are the same. In a, in one way. In one way. In one way, their point’s(?) 0:24:26.0 vastly different.

0:24:28.9 In the sense that if one has the view of human potential; that view that there is no limit to the evolutionary possibility of human beings, even to achieve such a status even beyond that of divine beings. That is a different way of living one’s life, if one thinks there is such a possibility, than if one thinks there is no such possibility. And that all beings are just sort of more or less like us. Ok? So, that brings us up to Tibet. And now I will stop that first section, right on schedule. And now I want to turn to, I can take exorcism(?)0:25:05.1 so on schedule, I can take three minutes of questions about that first, which was very fast. About that first overview. If anyone has any questions, just specifically on anything we touched on. Not just your general questions. We’ll table for the end. But anything particularly that we touched on. We can, we have three minutes. Yes.

Audience: What does the evidence show that the various forms of Buddhism will always exist, or that they’ll just going to unfold into the people or they actually evolve, one from the other?

Robert: Well, there’s not really. We can’t say that there is evidence in the sense of material evidence. You know, like, sort of what Webster’s think of as evidence, say archaeology or something like that. There isn’t any kind of evidence of that sort at all. Precisely in fact, in relation to the material record, the two versions agree actually. The unfolding version. Because the unfolding version says it wasn’t here until it unfolded. Right? The other one says, well, when we see a text or we see something in stone, or a sculpture then we; at that point it exists and it didn’t exist before that. You see. So, there’s no physical evidence and one can argue for it in a physical way. In philosophically or internally I believe there is a kind of evidence And that is, if one can read the record of monastic Buddhism, the Pali Sutras, or of Mahayana Buddhism, you know, Messianic Buddhism, the Sanskrit sutras. If one reads them informed by some insight gained from the Vajrayana type of teaching, one can find so much evidence, that there is so much latently unpacked, that is not unpacked in there, that basically agrees.

0:26:45.2 So, that one has to say that compassion and that imaginative vision and creative imagination is contained even within the monastic teachings, you can find that. As I once said to a, I’m, let me give you an anecdote; answer in an anecdote. I once said to one Indian chap who I was debating with, in India, who was, you know, Pali scholar type. And he would say, “What is this about the Buddha, the tantra? There couldn’t possibly be. This is impossible. Where, find me a tantra in the Buddha’s life.” And I said, “I will show you a tantra in the Buddha’s life. I will show you tantra. And here is tantra.” A young man, the Buddha’s first layman, who is the lay disciple was hung over one morning. He had been rolled by courtesans with his friends in the woods at a lavish playboy type party the night before, who had run off with everything but his underwear. And all of his jewels. In India they wore; the Indians they wore, like, tremendous jewels. The males did. And they were really decked out. Expensive stuff, you know? And he was staggering around all hung over the next morning in his underwear looking for these girls. He was really mad. Here’s a guy who was, like, been totally inebriated, drugged, drunk, nude and mad. And he walked into the Buddha’s camp. Staggered in there, “Where’s me girls?” You know. “Have you seen any girls?” and he says to the Buddha. And Buddha says, “Young man, Do you want to find a girl? Or do you want to find liberation?” (child’s voice is heard) 0:28:14.0 (laughter ???) covers that. So, he said. He said, “Hey, liberation. That’s a new idea.” He sat down, underwear and all. The Buddha taught for him about two minutes. Two things about suffering and it’s cause, and it’s cessation and the path to cessation. The guy goes into samadhi. Eight hours later, he’s an arhat. So, I said to this Indian guy, “What would, don’t you think there’s something operating other than two or three short sentences? And some guy with a cute orange dress on, that is to affect a person like that so powerfully. And what is operating there is, the Buddha’s own being is a kind of field of bliss. And a field of stability. And a field of illumination. And a field of openness and so forth. And the guy walked into it and his nervous system just completely flowered and he felt totally peaceful. And he felt totally that there was a whole new dimension to things. And that was initiation in the mandala. That’s what true initiation is. And out of, you cannot explain by some sort, just he said some words, or he had a nice orange dress on. You cannot explain this otherwise.” So, I told to this guy. He said, “Very interesting” This Indian gentleman. He didn’t believe me at all. Ok. That’s enough question.

0:29:30.6 Now we go to the next section. And now, the next section is entitled. It’s about the land of Tibet, its ancient roots, and formation as a nation. And we will now come to Tibetan Rimpoche. Do you need this? Or are you just going to talk this way? Sit, want to stand? You don’t need this.

Rimpoche: I don’t. Yeah. (Tibetan: GR and RT) 0:29:47.7

Rimpoche: Ok.

Robert: 0:29:51.1 (Tibetan: ..nam gin le)

Rimpoche: (Tibetan:)

Robert: So, now Rimpoche. We will turn now to Tibet as a. Well, I’ll leave it there. You may wish.

Rimpoche: No. I don’t care

Robert: No. You don’t.

Rimpoche: (laughs)

Robert: We’ll turn to Tibet itself. Because now in understanding how these different streams came to Tibet. We should look at the pre-existent Tibetan civilizations in itself. And Rimpoche will now embark upon that one 0:30:14.5 (Tibetan back and forth between RT and Rimpoche)

Rimpoche: excuse me. (laughs) I don’t even know what I’m supposed to speak. What I’m. (laughs)

Robert: Don’t believe it. Don’t believe it.

Rimpoche: Ok. Now. 0:30:58.8 (Tibetan: Rimpoche and RT) Ok. Now. I’m sure, I don’t know, what I’m supposed to talk. But I was told to speak about Tibet itself. And how it’s been existed. And all this. I think I’m in sort of a very dark in that subject really. Though I’m a Tibetan. And, so anyway, let’s see whatever I know.

0:31:46.7 History of Tibet. It’s a very complicated. As every other history except America. Which is very, not very far away, so you can very easily say and record and all this. Place like Tibet and India and all this ancient place, they are very complicated. It’s very hard to say pinpointedly, this is that, that’s that. Now the question of, “How does Tibetan races have come up? How does Tibetan peoples have come up? How does Tibet itself has become a country?” And all this are very complicated. Tibetans have a very strange record which I do not know whether scientifically, that is to say yes or no. There are a lot of other people who are also giving a lot of different opinions. Which is also very hard to say right or wrong. However, I will speak to you whatever I know on the basis of what I’ve heard, what I hear, what I think is right. I guess that’s it, really. As a whole or something like that. Now, if you look back into the Tibetan history; the books and religious texts and all this. They say, well of course, the land of Tibet is, of course, there before, but there’s no inhabitants, human beings are not there. There are certain records, certain books will say it is totally sort of icy land. It’s full of ice and snow and nothing else. There are certain records says, it was full of water. And nothing else. And who knows? Really. I mean, I have not seen it. There’s no scientific proof. Maybe the water shifted and the Tibet has gone up and whatever happens. So, that’s, that’s part of that. But land was definitely there, when I don’t have to be(???)0:34:12.3.

0:34:13.8 Another thing is, “How does this Tibetan races have started?” Ok. There are a lot of people who give a lot of opinions. Some say, “Some of the races of the Tibetans have come from India.” Some say, “No, it has come from China.” And some says, “No, it was started some middle of nowhere.” And, but many of the Tibetan records and text books shows purely what the Tibetans contribute, I’ll tell you that. And what Tibetans really think, how Tibetan people have become existed. Ok? Now, Tibetans believe or say, it is a very hard and difficulty; poor, cold, miserable land. It is true. I’m sorry. I do. I don’t like to picture you Tibet as a beautiful nice land at all. It is cold, miserable, painful, full of sufferings, difficulties, lot of little things to eat. And that sort of very hard land. The people who are going to be born there and who going to establish that, that particular race or nation or whatever you may like to call it. It’s going to be very hard people, very mean people and very rough and really bad and horrible people. And wild going to be. And then the earlier period in India, during the Buddha’s time. Even before the present Shakyamuni Buddha’s before, like the Kasyapa Buddha and even before that. You know, according to the ancient Buddhist. I’m sure you have touched it before I came in. The Shakyamuni Buddha, the present, what we call it, Buddha, who happens to be born in India. Indian prince and all this. They call it Shakyamuni Buddha, which is the fourth Buddha in this eon. So that during the first and second and third Buddha and many of those great bodhisattvas, which our friend, Professor here would like to call it, Messianic people. Ok.

0:37:09.5 So, they would like to do this, what you call it, messianic activity. They would like to do this messianic activities. And who said, who would like to do what? And of course, if we all had a picture when you call it bodhisattva, there are all totally dedicated for the sake of others and no selfish cause and all this beautiful picture we paint. However, I look over the direction. I look in opposite direction. They are all of course, dedicated. No doubt. But what for? For the sake of all sentient beings, they say. But what for? Why do they have to do that? So, they would like to develop themselves quickly. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. They would like to develop themselves quickly. They would like to get themselves, you know, spiritually developed. Want to become a Buddha. Or want to become awakened. Fully awakened or enlightened. Or all these are technical English words we have to borrow. Sometimes I don’t like to borrow these words, because people use, like, word of enlightenment. Ok. I mean, a lot of people will use for the Buddhahood. A lot of people will use small little achievement of some little spiritual development. They got harmony, little conven(?)0:38:38.6 . They also like to call it enlightenment. It becomes cheap. You know, doesn’t really express the meaning what we really want to express. So, I would like to call. I’d really like to stick with the word of Buddhahood. Or urgently become a Buddha. Or even going beyond that. Maybe I stop there. (laughs) Ok. So, they really like to do that first. They’ll like to develop. So, they would like to take very hardship, as much as possible, so that they can come up better way. So, they said, “Oh. Where is the hard word? And where is the most difficult place to do?” So, they started looking through. Where is the difficulty. Probably, most problems where you can go and do what? So, everybody sees that this Tibet going to be a terrible place where the people are going to be sort of ruthless.

Robert: Rough and tough

Rimpoche: Yeah. Very rough and tough and mean. And the land is going to be horrible. And everybody said, “Look. I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to do that at all.” I said, “That’s going to be very hard.” So, what we call Avalokiteshvara or what we say. What do people say? (???)0:40:02.4. Whatever. So, anyway, there is somebody. A messianic people, who, she, rather let me use the word. I’m always like the female (laughs) Sort of thing.

0:40:16.0 So, she chose to pick up that place and sort of, taking a personal responsibility, saying that, “Look. No one would like to go there and then let me be responsible of that and see if I can help them.” So, Avalokiteshvara, lot of people, when I used the word “she”. Lot of people may think, “how come?” Avalokiteshvara is a male. And there are lot of female Avalokiteshvara versions. So, that’s why I have a full right to use the word “she”. Ok? So, she choosed to pick up that land as her own responsibility. So, what she does is, before this race is fully come up, she quickly tried to put her gene in it. So, what happened is, she sort of manifested herself. Now, this is according to the Tibetan texts. Ok? She manifested herself in sort of a monkey form in those areas. In the land over there. And that monkey, of course, had a sort of partnership of 0:41:44.5 (Tibetan:..)

Robert: Ogress

Rimpoche: Oh that is total new word for me. I have no the meaning(laughs)

Robert: Demoness

Rimpoche: Sort of that very rough type of fellow. And sort of, between two of this, the monkey and that, what that? Sort of really demon type of, sort of fellow. Jointly they got twelve kids; half monkey, half human being form. Ok. Twelve kids. These are the first twelve people had first ever developed in area. I hope you have those slices(slides?) 0:40:02.4.

Robert: Yeah

Rimpoche: In the Gung thang area, which you later see the slices. So, Gung thang area, where they really, Gung thang is south Tibet. Ok. South Tibet and south from Lhasa towards India side. That is the best land, agricultural land available. Really. And one of the best agricultural land available. There’s a nice little going. There’s a snow mountain up there and river goes through. And very nice land.

0:43:02.1 So, this is really the first Tibetan races supposed to have developed. Ok. And those first tribes are half human being and half monkey. And then gradually it sort of developed and settled down and water started receding and more and more land started coming. And this is how the Tibetan races have fully developed on up to now. That’s what the one kind of texts and the Tibetans will talk about that. And while that going on, and those people, those earlier Tibetans, half monkey, half of human beings and they started growing barley. Because of the altitude and everything up there. So, the barley is suitable. And I do not know where the seed has gone. They really got it. Anyway, the monkey’s supposed to have provided the seed. And don’t forget, that monkey is the manifestation of Avalokiteshvara who provided the seed for that. And this is the really. That’s why ever since then, even up to today, the barley is the staple food of the Tibet, Tibetan. At least in Tibet. Not me.(laughs) I’m sorry. So, roughly that is how the Tibetan races have, supposed to have come up. And of course, then this. There’s more and more people. And there is a lot of lawlessness going on in Tibet. Tremendous amount of lawlessness earlier. And the people are rough and really mean and very tough. I don’t think they hesitate to use knife at any little bit of argument and whatever they could get. Either the stone or sort of some wood sharp or. Poking is no hesitation. And very rough. And killing is. You know. I mean, whoever, almost if you look in the West. If you look, what you call, those period. The Stone Age (tape is silent)

0:45:50.1 Tibet is nothing special. It’s very similar in that manner it went. And until they really needed some kind of unified, somebody who can really unify them and able to control them together. Ok. Then there came the first Tibetan king, called, 0:46:17.9 (Nyatri Tsenpo Tibetan..) Ok, 0:46:21.6 (Tibetan..)was the first unified Tibetan king. Ok. Now how does, how did he appeared? Ok. There’s two way. Normal, lot of those mythical type of or record will show that he has sort of landed from the heaven down on the mountain top. However, a strange fellow. Doesn’t look like Tibetan, has appeared on the mountain top. And that is true part of it. He appeared on the mountain top. And the people started asking, “where you come from?” Somehow, they be able to communicated. “Where you come from?” So, this fellow started raising finger like that. Whatever he’s saying, he’s pointing the finger up. Whether he had come across the mountain or whatever. So, the people thought he had come from heaven up top. From the sky down. So, that’s why they called 0:47:32.1 (Tibetan:..) has come down from there. So, they all said, “Hey. Here is somebody who had come, landed from the sky down. So, we have to sort of respect this fellow and we need him as king.” So, a lot of learned people and 0:47:51.7 (pronbo???) Pronbos and all this learned people, they started carrying him on the neck. Carrying him on the neck. So, that’s why the word of 0:48:01.8 Nyatri Ngawang Tsenpo, which is “heavy on the neck”. That is really where the first king came along in Tibet. So, whether this fellow had come from India, by losing a war and escape into Tibet and cross the mountain and doesn’t know how to speak Tibetan, so started pointing his finger. Sorry about it That’s my fault. Ok? Personal opinion. Sorry Pointing up. (laughs) Pointing out a finger and indicated that he had come from across the mountain. Or is really coming pointing up. Who knows? That’s right.

0:48:44.4 So, both probably. Anyway. That is the intelligent job and it is the first Tibetan king ever came in that land. Ok, now, let me switch a little bit of the education and the spiritual and cultural part of it. So, as far as the education’s concerned, I really don’t think there is not much at that time. Very, very little. Not even a script. No writing. Nothing. And I believe people used to mark. You know, they used to get a little piece of wood and cut the wood by a knife and giving a really different, sort of, giving a different mark on the wood. So, that is sort of indication their commitments and all this, you know, cutting a wood by a certain knife. And that was really sort of written type of commitment giving to each other was based on that. And then the spiritual part of it. I’m sorry I’m really rushing rough. And the spiritual part of it, Buddhism is not a Tibetan religion. Excuse me. Buddhism is not, I cannot say “not Tibetan”, but not the first Tibetan religion at all. There is pre-Buddhist religion in Tibet called Bon 0:50:40.6. I’m quite sure, quite a few of you are familiar with that. And that Bon is like shamanistic type of, very close to the Native American religions, what they practice now as I see here. And it is not really Native American Religion. However, sort of, has tremendous amount of similarity in that. And it’s sort of, I’d rather like to put it in the category of shamanistic type of religion they have in Tibet. And tremendous, lot of, tremendous amount of spirits is available in Tibet. A wild place. As I told you. The people are rough and tough. The land is difficulty and rough. And that is the area where the spirits remains the most. And every point, wherever you move, you’ll find. Every land wherever you move, you’ll find all sort of different spirits here and there. It is the really sort of land of spirits there. Cure (/)0:52:14.8 beware. When I use the word spirit, I do not know what you are understanding. I have no idea. But what I’m trying to, trying to convey here is sort of ghost type of, hungry ghost type of spirit. And lots of them. Countless number there. Lots. And that is the area.

0:52:43.2 So. Each one of them are not a good spirit. It is a powerful non-virtuous slightly evil type of spirit. Very strong one. So, therefore lot of sacrifices has been made in Tibet. Lot of sacrifices. You know what I mean, sacrifices? Well, I do not know any. I’ve never seen it. Any record where there are mention of human sacrifice in Tibet. I’ve never seen it or never heard. But there are lot of animal sacrifices. Not so wild as India or Nepal, but a lot. Even the poor people at that time. They used to at least break egg, just to satisfy the spirit. And that sort of very wild, I don’t like to call it spiritual practice, but that sort of practice they have. Very wild. Yet, within that practice, also, also, it has nice useful part of it. Useful part of it, like some different rituals to, for healing purposes. And different rituals for recovering losses. And so and forth. There are quite a number of helpful uses and majority of it. And I will say not that great is there. As a result of this, the Tibetans finds, found very, very difficult. Very difficult in life. Everything. Painful and miserable. Bad life there. Poor. Miserable. Full of illnesses. Lot of troubles. No cloth. Shortage of food, famine and illness. Everything. You name it. And they acknowledge those pains and tried to find out “how can we help?” How can we rid of those pains? The physical pain and the mental pain. On top of that, the physical pain is there. On top of that, they have the mental pain too. When you look at the mental pain, the physical pains are easy. The mental pains are more difficulty. Lot of mental pains. They’re losing their loved ones. Losing the children, companion. Not fulfilling their wishes. Lot of hardship and pains they’ve experienced.

0:56:28.0 So, they started looking for a method. How best way we can help ourselves. What method we can have it. Started looking over. They find, they found themselves, they realized, become quite intelligent, now. Don’t forget. Unfortunately or fortunately, from the mother point of view, it’s a lot of Avalokiteshvara’s blessings has already coming in. So, they started looking through and looking into the various different systems. And looking into it. Looking into India; looking into the Hinduism and the Buddhism and the other, other methods. Including material development at that time. It’s not that Tibetans did not know at that time, what’s happening outside. They do have some contact. They do. And now, it’s quite a lot, you know. Coming down almost seven hundreds. So, they started looking through. And only the wise people happens to be, fortunately, it happens to be a together time where there’s a number of wise people have been gathered together. They’re in sort of a respectable position. And they studied, looked, finally drawed conclusion finding the Buddhism gives the answer for their, what their really looking for. So, they draw the conclusion. The whole Tibet, as a whole. Draw the conclusion and started looking and looking and studying and bringing Buddhism, which, which they sort of found best answer for their problem. So, when we look, as a Tibetan, from that time onwards, now. As a Tibetan, I look in the Buddhism, what I see in the Buddhism and when the Western people, particularly Buddhist Professors. I not mean you. Ok.

Robert: (laughs)

0:59:08.5 Rimpoche: (laughs) of the academic professors. When they look into the Buddhism, we look at one Buddhism, but we find different things. When, as a Tibetan, as a, when we have now look at Buddhism, I see Buddhism as a source of happiness. I see Buddhism as full of philosophical things. I see Buddhism as in a practice. And I see all of them in one thing. One Buddhism. Which contains all this. But certain people, when you look at Buddhism, some people will say, “Buddhism is only philosophy and nothing else to do.” Some people will say, “Oh no. It is only believing and worshiping business.” Yeah. True. And some people say, “No. It is sort of strange thing they have. Neither is a proper philosophy, nor it is a, nor it is a only, only believing. But it is kind of funny, neither here nor there. It is sort of funny, strange, Eastern religion.” Sort of they see. But I don’t see that way. When I see it, I see a source of happiness. I see the source of happiness because I do believe and I do know, for the fact, the law of karma, the law, sorry, the law of karma is functioning. It is govern. It’s functioning within individual people. So, that’s why I see a source of happiness. I will explain that later to you. Much later. Not now, today. But some another day. Ok? That is the, as a source of happiness. And it worked in Tibet; that source of happiness. And since then, development of Buddhism, until now. Until nineteen fifties. Tibet really has one of the most beautiful life. We may not have airplanes, or mechanical machineries, machines and computers and so and forth. But we definitely had happiness.

1:02:16.2 Everybody is happy. Whether you’re poor or rich, you are. Most of the Tibetans are, in Tibet, are satisfied with their life. They may have more physical difficulties. They cannot pick up a telephone and talk to somebody else. However, whenever we can meet, we have to meet, we can meet. We can. We don’t. We cannot gather, talk, talk to all of the time, you know. Till you get fed up. The phone doesn’t ring all the time. But when you, you have to meet, you can meet. You can communicate. And we don’t have funny little fast foods. However, we have a very good health foods available. And people really do enjoy that. I’m sorry. We have that. Above all, there is no. not much of mental pain. Not much of mental pain. I don’t mean all the Tibetans are beautiful, happy, like a little image put into the, put into the altar. No. There are problems. There are troubles. There are everything. However, they knew. They also knew how to handle the problems. The problem doesn’t overtake the Tibetans. But Tibetans do know how to overtake their problems. Overcome their problems. So, we don’t have that much problems of mental problems. We don’t. We know what is really what. Well, I’m not praising myself. I remember one thing. But if I say that, it looks I’m praising myself. But I’m not. Ok? Believe me. But I’ll tell one of my own stories. Ok. I run away from Tibet in 1959. I think it’s in month of March. I believe. Anyway, it is between frozen second month of the Tibetan calendar. Ok.

1:04:43.8 Fortunately I was born in very, very wealthy and good family in Tibet. Really one of those most wealthiest, sort of family in Tibet. Because place where I was born, it happens to be, house happens to be Regent of Tibet for three times. And also, my father, who happens to be the nephew of thirteenth Dalai Lama. So, you can imagine how much wealth we have there. Sort of very wealthy family, compared with Tibet. Ok. Within Tibetan standards, very wealthy family. And when I left Tibet in fifty-nine. When I run away Tibet, I really run like this. Really. I don’t even have a single broken mug to get something hot to drink. Just like that. I walked out. Truly speak. Ok. I got a broken tea, cut it and made some hot tea and start drinking that and felt nothing bad. I did not go crazy. I never thought of. Incidentally, I have a car in Tibet. Ok. Two jeeps. Two trucks. But I keep walking. Not to mention horse and mules. Ok? But I never thought. Never felt bad. Really. And that much land; that much wealth. All of that. Never felt bad. Of course, I mean, you feel it. But, you don’t. I didn’t have any. I never thought bad. I even, up to now, it’s thirty years, I never even single minutes wished that I could have brought a little more gold out. I never single minute I have brought, wishes that I had brought a little more antiques. Never. So, it’s not that I’m great. But it is the influence of the Buddhism which really made one doesn’t think. And I tell you one thing. And I was never in difficulty. Even then, I was never, never, never difficulty in single day. Single day. I never had a very hard time. A single day. I never thought, where I’m going to get next food. Never thought. Somehow it came and I just sort of managed that way.

1:07:36.2 So, that is the Buddhism which gives happiness. At least. So, that’s what the Tibetans had found in those days in seven hundred days. So, they choose to pick up the Buddhism as answer for their pains. And miseries all these days. 1:08:01.4 (Robert and Rimpoche: Tibetan..) Ok. I was told I’m at a time out. So.

Robert: We’ll pick up in a little bit. It’s half the time, so people can get a break. Five minutes.

Rimpoche: Ok. So. 1:08:19.4 (Tibetan:..)

Robert: Oh yes. We’ll take. First we’ll have like three minutes, or a few minutes. Couple of questions about the ancient tribe(?)1:08:27.2 . And we’ll pick up from there. Ok?

Rimpoche: Ok.

Robert: This is mid-term break. Or mid-time break.

Rimpoche: Yes

Robert: A few questions.

Audience: Talk about the absolute misery of your lousy country. Were you talking of the old past or are you talking of now today?

Rimpoche: I’m talking about old past. Even long, long ago. Like you know, long before.

Audience: Alright. Thank you.

Rimpoche: Before Buddhism came into Tibet. That’s what I mean. We’re dealing in that area. Ok? Yes ma’am.

Audience 2: Rimpoche. How do you see, when they decided they were going to have Buddhism coming into Tibet? How do you hear words in your imagination? Do you see a side where 1:09:14.8 (?) Did they get together? A whole group of them in Lhasa? How did they do it?

Rimpoche: No. It’s not like that. We do have a lot of people communicated and going to India. Very hard time. Going into India and finding out what they’re going on. And then, according to, some kind of, we call it, manifested monk. All sort of, all sort of strange fellows coming in. And learning from them. People going out. Checking with them. And then they see the conclusion. Draw the conclusion. And they come back. Brought message. Discusses. And then finally they draw conclusion. It is the more or less, king’s decision. And followed by the court and so and forth. And that’s how it came. But it’s not without resistance, again. There was very, very strong resistance for Buddhism too. I mean, a lot of people thought Buddhism is a sort of evil thing, first. You know Quite number of people. And they really stood against. There is not that easy to come in. If I have to taught how Buddhism has come into Tibet, what price for Buddhism, the Tibetans have paid. It’s unimaginable. They lost the life of kings altogether. The kings choose to die themselves for the sake of able to bring Buddhism in Tibet. I mean, there are lot of them. It’s not easy, like today, you find an advertisement in New York Times and walk across the Open Center and get it. No. Really.

1:11:10.1 Robert: We’ll come back to that whole story.

Rimpoche: Ok. That will come later anyway. Ok? Yes. Sir.

Audience 3: Can you tell me something more specific about the pre-Buddhist religion in Tibet? Was there an organized religion?

Rimpoche: It is organized religion. Definitely. It has its own system. It has, it is a lot of, I mean, it has its own words. I mean.

Audience 3: Is this Bon we’re talking about?

Rimpoche: Well, this is a very Buddhist Bon I’m talking about it. I’m not talking about today’s available Bon at all. It is the pre-Buddhist Bon in Tibet. Ok? And then I emphasized on that word. It’s not today’s Bon. Ok?

Robert: It’s very different.

Rimpoche: It is big different. People may or may not accept, but as in, as in knowing a little bit of Tibetan, students of Tibetan religions. Student of Tibetan religion with little bit of a Western influence, pre astic/curiosity1:12:20.2 mind. I’ll definitely say it’s the same thing. Ok. Yes.

Audience 4: You talked a little bit about the transition from Bon religion to Tibetan and how that influenced the problem of translation of Buddhist text into Tibetan

Robert: Let’s save that after the break. Ok? That’s so long after. That’s where we’re picking up. Ok? That ‘s ok? We’ll now break for md-session break, about seven minutes till five of nine, we’ll begin again.

1:12:48.8 Robert: Until then, certain social and political. You know, they had dates, kind of thing, you know. And to sort of locate us in the picture. And this has to do with the, what Rimpoche was saying, about this time, about when they turned to Buddhism. Something more of a historical, what we know of a historical record of that time. In this line, I’d like to, I’d like to recommend to you two books. The one, a wonderful little book, by Tulku Thondup, who was the lama who would have been here tonight, but who couldn’t be. Unfortunately, but this is a small book of his called, Buddhist Civilization in Tibet. And it’s very short and has a lot of dates and sort of tables, like; it’s very useful. Do you sell that through Snow Lion, Jeff? Do you distribute this book? As well, this Tulku Thondup book, Buddhist Civilization in Tibet? You don’t? You don’t even distribute it? It was published by the, by the Maha Siddha Center. You know, Maha Siddha Foundation? You know, Harold Talbott’s thing.

Jeff:. I’ll get it

Robert: Yeah. You should. Snow Lion should distribute. It’s a very useful, though historical summary of Buddhism. That’s one. And the other one that I want to recommend you, since we’re jumping over, you know, a long, a lot of thing, is this very fascinating recent book. Which I recommend very much. I like it very much. It’s by Tarthang Tulku, and it’s available from Dharma Press, I think. Actually, I got my copy downstairs in this bookshop. And it’s called, Ancient Tibet and he kind of goes slightly wild. You’d be amused, Rimpoche. He starts, he starts the history of Tibet. He grounds it in the Big Bang. (laughs) He does a lot of research. And then he relates this, he relates this water draining away business to the continental shift and the fact that Tibet is created by the Indian tectonic plate, going under the Asiatic one, pushing up the Himalayas. You know, which is why in Tibet, which recounts for one interesting thing about Tibet, that I didn’t realize the significance of until we moved to Tibet. And that is that the earth’s crust, the mantle of the earth is twice as thick in Tibet as it is almost everywhere else on earth. It’s twice the thickness. The mantle is double in Tibet. Because one had slid under the other. See, which is why the Himalayas are so high. So, we have a double thickness of land. That’s when the waters then drained off with what they called in ancient times, the Tethys sea, was drained by the collision of these two tectonic continental plates. [maybe you can turn that off. I think we have really enough air. Ah. Thank you]

1:15:29.5 And. But. Anyway. So, that book is very interesting and he points out a lot of interesting things about early Tibetan culture. But I don’t want to take much time, now. So, I just want to go back to now. Now, the first king. One of the things these rough. To go back to Rimpoche’s way of telling. One of the things these very rough and tough, and rough and ready Tibetans did, in their, in their roughness and toughness, is once they began to become organized and unified, by these kings, they imposed their roughness and toughness on others, which is the way of, you know, these kind of tribes when they unify, such kind of. Like, the Mongolians were the same, somewhat later. And they in fact became very, very powerful conquerors. And at one time the Tibetan empire stretched from the Ganges, rather tenuously at that outer rim. But they reached to the capitol of ancient China. They conquered, at one time, the capitol of ancient China. They took the capitol of China and deposed the emper tor they didn’t like. But then they left, because they didn’t like the low altitude and the weather and so forth. And they missed their barley and so on. So, they went back to their horrible place, because they were used to it. And then they also conquered all the way into Khotan and the central Asian silk route. And they even fought at one time, the Tibetan nation is the only nation with whom Haroun ar-Rashid ever made a treaty on equal terms. You know the famous conqueror of Baghdad, Haroun ar-Rashid? Of the Baghdad Caliphate? He made a treaty with the Tibetans on equal terms. That is to say, you know, he considered that, because they fought him to a standstill, in central Asia. So, they were tremendous conquerors. So, this time, when they then began to look for Buddhism as a solution to their problems, was a time when, not only they had discovered the difficulties of life in general but also, they had seen the unsatisfactory ness of making a world empire. Because they had a huge vast empire and tremendous wealth, that they had conquered from the Silk Route from China, from Nepal, from India, from all around them, they had conquered. And what they found out, at the time, another point we should realize is that at that time, when they looked through the big nations. Other big nations in Asia, which at that time were in India and the Ganges plain and were in China, the Tang dynasty. They noticed that each of those empires also thought that Buddhism was the most important thing. Also, the different kingdoms of central Asia. Buddhism had, in other words, had really spread all around Tibet, sort of in Asia at that time and was available from all directions. And so, not only did they examine different teachings, but they also examined different forms of Buddhism. They examined Chinese Buddhism, Tibetan, Indian Buddhism, Central Asian Buddhism. And of those, they sort of picked and modeled themselves mainly on Indian Buddhism.

1:18:19.8 So, the, now the king who was most noteworthy in that respect is the king Songtsen Gampo is his name. And his dates are given variously. Tulku Thondup gives rather unusually long dates for Songtsen Gampo, which I always intuitively felt was correct. Westerners for some reasons give Songtsen Gampo very short lifespan. I’m not sure why they based that. What they think of their (??) 1:18:41.2 because he did say, he conquered enormous. He won huge number of battles. He unified the country. He set embassies all over different countries. Takes a long time. And to accomplish all that in a twenty-two year reign, it would be really operating on airplanes, you know. So. What?

Rimpoche: Thirteen twenty-seven.(?) 1:18:59.1

Robert: Well, no, but the Westerners give him extremely short lifespan. From like six seventeen to six fifty something. I mean really short. His whole life. He died before fifty. Whereas Tulku Thondup gives him a lifespan from six seventeen to six ninety-eight, which, which I believe is much more correct. So, something in that order. He had a long and very fruitful life. According to the Tibetan mystical feeling, as Rimpoche said, Songtsen Gampo in fact was an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. A meteor came from Avalokiteshvara and landed in the womb of the queen of Tibet. And then Songtsen Gampo was conceived. They have a whole myth like that. Anyway, he did that. Now, he had very intelligent minister named Thonmi Sambhota, who he. When he realized that he needed Buddhism, he also realized that to have Buddhism, he needed a written language. You needed text and here you come with your oral and written transition. And so, he sent this Thonmi Sambhota to India and he studied Sanskrit there for twelve years, I believe, which is the traditional time to study Sanskrit. And then he tried to make an alphabet for Tibetan. But it is said that he found it so difficult to make a proper alphabet for Tibetan out of the Sanskrit alphabet that he eventually, he had to pray to Manjushri and he received a vision of how to do it. And Tibetan, they did a most remarkable thing. In doing that, because Tibetan is a language that is from the Burman, Tibeto-Burman family of languages. It’s monosyllabic in nature. It also has relations to, not modern Chinese, but to ancient Chinese. It has some relations. And therefore, to write Tibetan in an alphabet like Sanskrit is difficult, because Tibetan is mono-syllabic and it’s short. There are many words that have the same syllable, that have different meanings. And they relate to tones and context and different things. And yet, he devised, by using a system of extra letters. The way of writing that in a Sanskrit alphabet and this enabled the Tibetans to translate the Buddhist texts very precisely. In a way, the language was completely constructed, especially for the purpose of translating Buddhist texts. And this happened during the seventh century.

1:21:08.7 Now, this ended and at that time Songtsen Gampo also married two queens; one from Nepal and one from China. And he married them, not only, in those days, kings would marry number of queens for usually political reasons to make alliances with different tribes or different nations on their borders, to avoid warfare. But he had a special motive. He married these queens for their statues, for their art collections. Because the two queens came from China and from Nepal with these fantastic famous Buddha images, which he demanded from the kings there as the dowry. And they didn’t dare refuse because of the power of the army of the Tibetan emperor. And so, I mean, he would see, like he said to the king of Nepal. It’s a funny story. Tell me if I have it right Rimpoche. First he said, please send me your daughter along with such and such, a famous statue and such and such a dowry. And I will be very happy. And the guy said, “Who is this guy?” Then, and he sent one minister with three messages. So, he sent him the first, saying, please send me your daughter and send blah, blah, blah. And the guy said, “Forget it. I wouldn’t send my daughter to that ridiculous Tibetan character.” He’s like, “Why should I do so?” Then, second letter was open. It said: you should send me your daughter because I will give you such and such. And I’m a great person and many things about the king. So, then he said, “None of that is convincing. I’m not going to send her. Whoa. There’s no real reason.” Then he said. Then he opened the third letter and said, “Well, the real reason you should send me your daughter is, if you don’t, I will march down there and I will smash you, your palace into smithereens.” “Oh, that’s a good reason.” Then he sent his daughter. So, anyway, these daughters came and they built the Jokhang Cathedral in Lhasa, the one you recently read about, that the Chinese police occupied again. I mean, they once had shelled it and destroyed it earlier. But again, they recently have occupied it. Right in the center of Lhasa. The wonderful Jokhang Cathedral. And also Ramoche Cathedral. Another famous one. And certain palaces and ancient temples around in Tibet, he built. But one interesting thing. And this is where we come to what Rimpoche was mentioning about the eighth(?)1:23:03.6 business of the resistance against Buddhism. And to who did resist Buddhism. Two kinds of people. The old tribal people resisted Buddhism because while there were these conquerors. And this is sort of a political reason that Western historians usually advance. And it is a good. And is intelligent. I, I can agree. Once can agree with it. And that is. That is under the old shamanism, that is to say, pre-Buddhist Bon teaching. Not the modern Bon but pre-Buddhist Bon. Which was an oral type of tradition and which was based on regional traditions. That is; there was a deity of such and such a mountain, of such and such a river. This valley and that valley each has their own deities. And the king’s lineage came from the Yarlung valley where they had their own mountain, Yarlung Tsangpo, with their own deity. And so, there was a, the religious, religious legitimation for a larger union was absent under such kind of local deity type of religion. And so, while you could unite, for to go out and have a conquest, to maintain unity and peaceful conditions, was pretty impossible. Because each person identified with their local valley, their local deity, their local shaman. So, in order to develop legitimacy that could unify all the tribes, the kings had to seek for something outside. And they looked to other. What was most universalistic in Asia at the time. And the most universalistic teaching was Buddhism.

1:24:26.4 And so they said, “Aha. This is what we need. We need a great tradition to unify and incorporate these local traditions in this way, by being the Dharmaraja.” What is called the king of dharma, of dharma. A king that supports the dharma. That is this universal teaching. We’ll have a legitimacy that will last. And they will, will create a lasting Tibetan nation. You see, so even on that political level it was. It was. It had a very useful element, even on the social level. Not only in the spiritual level. I mean, the two are not so separate, in fact. So, but everything they bring, he brought, their, their resistance was therefore the resistance of local aristocratic powers like, sort of, feudal barons. Who had their local mountain deities and who wanted not to have to sort of worship this central dynasty, because the dynasty was bringing Buddhism. And they somehow give up their local autonomy. The Tibetans were very independent, fiercely regional in their attitudes. And then others would say, of course on a sort of spiritual, psychic plane. This is explained in the Tibetans’ own myth, by the fact that the local deities themselves did not like Buddhism. And why? Because the local deities wanted to have a yak sacrifice every month or so forth. You know, they were blood drinking deities. And Buddhism would not allow to cut the life of an animal for sacrifice, for religious purpose to sacrifice. And Buddhism is against, totally against, not only any kind of blood sacrifice. And completely would. Buddhism would not allow them that. These deities. Buddhism didn’t try to destroy the deities. But it didn’t allow them such a blood sacrifice as they were used to. And so, they didn’t like Buddhism. They didn’t want to become vegetarians, the local deities. So. So, therefore, although Songtsen Gampo built temples, created a language, translated texts, began to create and promoted a law code. And he did all these things. This is what I love about Tarthang Tulku’s book. He has these wonderful little tables. And it shows that the Tibetans’ creation of a written language, promulgation of written law codes, development of, of constitution, sort of thing, predated, like Magna Carta, Charlamagne’s Germanic code. All of these things that happened in Europe, by centuries. The Magna Carta is five or six centuries after the law code made up between the emperor, Songtsen Gampo and the Tibetan nobles, you know. The equivalent of a Magna Carta type, giving the certain kind of, situation. The written language is three centuries before Chaucer.

1:27:01.9 And he shows these parallels which, you know, we’re, we’re Europeans big nations; England, France, we think. And Tibet. What is Tibet? And here he shows that it’s much older as a national culture, all its sort of wound documents and foundations, then most of the European nations, in fact. Which is I think is very. I think it’s very pleasant. I enjoy it. So, he did that. However, one thing that he was unable to do, is he basically did not ordain any monks. He had visiting monks from central Asia. Visiting monks came from India. But somehow there were almost no Tibetan monks and there was no Tibetan monasteries. He did not succeed in building them. Because a monastery, see, is sort of the. Actually, in Buddhist history, when a monastery is put on the land of a country, that is when that country has accepted physically and institutionally the presence of Buddhism. Because on some sense a monastery. And I didn’t unpack this in the case of ancient India. But a monastery is, in a way, a kind of useless area. A monastery does not train soldiers. A monastery does not produce economic benefits. A monastery allows draft dodgers to go somewhere and say, OM MANI PADME HUNG all day. A monastery requires people to support the people there. And so, when you put a monastery there, what the nation is saying is that, those people who seek spiritual development, who seek liberation, should be freely supported by the rest of the society for their life, if necessary. Sort of, lifelong free lunch. Or lifelong fellowship. We could put it in academic, in educational terms. And so, militaristic kings, and authoritarian kings, who want a lot of production, a lot of soldiers, a lot of aggrandizement do not let go of labor. Do not let go of resources. Do not let go of land. Do not let go of human allegiance so easily, as we noted. Notice that in the Buddha’s time, Socrates was poisoned for just talking to some young soldiers in the steam bath and getting them to be philosophers. Confucius never made a monastery. Only the Buddha did. And Songtsen Gampo was not able to convince Tibetans. He was not able to sell Tibetans the idea, that they should allow some of their warriors, and some of their ladies and cooks and different people and some of their peasants, free space to go and study and attain enlightenment. So, he never built a monastery. It wasn’t for from seventh century, it took a hundred years. Or some say a hundred and fifty years for his great grandson, Trisong Detsen, for his great grandson, the king Trisong Detsen, to begin to attempt to build the first monastery. And when he did that, and he began to bring in a lot of monks. He brought the famous Indian teacher, Santaraksita. And when he did that, these Bonpos. These local shamans. I mean, not the modern ones, but the ancient ones, the pre, the 1:29:52.2(??) ones. They didn’t like it all. And they started. I mean, the deities didn’t like it and there was, like, a famine. There was a plague. Santaraksita had to leave the country because the, sort of, wizards and so forth were cursing him and saying that Buddhism was bringing a curse on the land and people were freaking out. And at that time, he had, Santaraksita had to actually leave and escape, because the, sort of, priests were getting so annoyed with this new foreign business that was coming in there and this idea of all of these monks. And these people wasting their lives being monks. You know, the. And ladies being nuns, the terrible, you know, waste of time, for the worldly point of view. And so, in order to do this, he had to call in a special person. A sort of shaman of shamans

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