Archive Result

1Soundfile 19871123GR&RTMN1_01

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche & Robert Thurman

Location ??

Topic Tibet Mystic Nation

Transcriber Vicki Cahill

Date October 27, 2021

Robert: Shall we begin, other words? Can you turn the light part off at all? Just click it one click. It’s up on the back. Click it back one click. Until you. That’s it. Right. Then fan still goes? Great. Ok. So, good. Welcome everyone. Today we are coming to the great figure Losang Drakpa. Tsongkhapa. And to the period of time in Tibetan history, that I’d like to call Renaissance Tibet. It just happens that it coincides with the Renaissance in the West in time, which is convenient. And may indeed not be a coincidence, in fact. If you think of the Renaissance as a time when people decided that the boundaries on their intelligence and the boundaries on their minds. They were imposed by various institutions. The church, may in particular, in the West. And other institutions in other places. These boundaries were not that intrinsically necessary. And that man could make up, like, what he would more or less. And sort of a kind of a tremendous breakthrough and insight and understanding occurred. Which is a good aspect of, let’s say, of the Renaissance. And breakthroughs in all fields; arts and institutions and science in particular took place. Amid a great turbulence, of course, in society. Well in the case in Tibet, this was a similar period. What you can say; the way you can describe this period. Now, we had left you historically last time in the moment where the Sakyapas, as you recall, ruled Tibet under the aegis of the Mongolian Empire, which conquered the world. And actually, this is a cause of the Renaissance in the West. Here we do have a political connection going to the West. A number of historians more or less accept this as a sort of macro level cause of the Renaissance. Namely that, the Mongolian Empire, one of the effects of it. It had of course many negative effects. Many people got killed by the conquest of the Mongols. But its positive effect was that it broke the barrier between East and West. That is between China and India and Europe, that the Muslim Empire had imposed. Where all of the culture from the East was received by the Muslim Empire up until that time. Up until the time of the Mongol conquest. You know, the Muslims from the time in the seventh century, when they began their expansion, until the twelfth century when the Mongol Empire began to arise. Twelfth and early thirteens. There was a breakage in the flow of ideas and trade and information through, through Asia, through central Asia. You know, the circle was broken. And the benefit of the Asian culture was received by the Islamic world, which developed a higher culture really than dark ages style Europe. But then with the Mongol conquest, these trade routes were opened again, through to the. Through, you know, and then we have Marco Polo going over to meet the Great Khan again and so on.

0:03:26.2 And this was a very stimulating to Europe. And they brought back stories of all different kinds of human possibilities than they had imagined in Europe. And this, historian do say, Central Asia is sort of a unknown catalyst in the history of Europe. And the historians more or less accept that nowadays. It used to be a kind of sort of minority view. But now it’s a, it’s somewhat accepted. And in that same kind of a macro view of history, just by your curiosity, they say that Columbus’s voyage and the beginning of the sea voyages is an attempt to achieve Asia by sea had to do with the collapse of the Mongol Empire. And therefore, the collapse of this trade through Central Asia. And so, the merchants of Italy had to find another way to get there. Because they wanted the wealth there. So, then they started sending people around Africa and around here and there. And of course, Columbus thought he could get there sailing through the Panama Canal. This was unfortunately 0:04:21.5 the idea(?). And as you know, he arrived and he thought he was in India, as you know. He was trying to get to India because of the wealth that they won up there. So, in modern times we have this ethnocentric sort of Western-centric ideas. We don’t really realize that Asia was playing a role in European history way, way, way back there. In any case, that’s on a sort of external political level. On an internal political level, on the internal psychic, let’s say or spiritual level. On the level of sort of the hologram of the human heart and the human brain. What I believe you can say. Now, Tsongkhapa Losang Drakpa is a great, great figure. And he is said to be the incarnation of the bodhisattva Manjushri, the bodhisattva of perfect wisdom. But we don’t have to. Without resorting to that mythical level, although I’ll discuss that when we get to that point. All I’m saying is that he, at the time when he was born in 1357, from the work of the previous centuries, from the time of Atisha, who visited in 1042. During these three hundred years the whole of the knowledge of ancient India had been reimported in Tibet. Building upon what had been translated in the earlier period which we discussed, in the time of Trisong Detsen and so forth. And the whole of the knowledge of the monastic Buddhism, the messianic Buddhism and the apocalyptic, apocalyptic Buddhism. [Where did he go? (laughs)] The all of the apocalyptic Buddhism, I thought he had an apocalypse and disappeared. Apocalyptic Buddhism was translated into Tibetan and a vast collection was created and then beginning with the Sakya Pandita, in particular, who we discussed last time.

0:06:07.3 And then a figure who we have not discussed called 0:06:09.1 (buchay?) Rimpoche as a second great figure. But then more important than these great figures. From the curriculum established by the Sakya Pandita and the expansion of the Sakya monastic system under the patronage of the Mongol dynasties of the world. Mongol rulers of the world. Unifying Tibet in that way, in other words. There was a tremendous explosion in the number of educated people in Tibet. Tibetans became much more widely educated. There was debate going on in all the different monasteries. There was a great attention to learning and so forth. And a number, a great many geniuses of Tibet’s own genius. Great scholars, sages, yogis; began to emerge. And sort of, as the kind of crowning figure in that movement. A person, who in his lifetime therefore could have all the translations. Could have the libraries available. Could have all lineages available, sort of easily .Who began to study them at the age of three. As he began to read at the age of two. And so on. This is where Tsongkhapa came in. In other words, irrespective; in other words, if you, even in the mystical level when they say, “Well, he was incarnation of Manjushri. He was just so great.” And so on. That’s true, but on the other hand, these things all fit into the stream of intellectual history and to the stream of a culture. And, you know, in other words, that would be the time to manifest a complete synthesis of all of these different things. Tsongkhapa had the sources somebody two hundred years earlier would not have had libraries, which he could have found all the texts that Tsongkhapa read. If you read Tsongkhapa’s writings there are. He draws from every text from all over. And he compares different translations and so forth. And he’s extraordinary scholar. And he had time to master that vast range of scholarship and yet meditate, and yet achieve, and yet teach and write and so forth. Because of the sort of, pinnacle in historical movement that he reached. And in his time, I think there is no question that the sort of horizon of limitation over the Tibetan mind was vastly expanded. And from his time, there was a huge expanse of, even much greater, again, wave of monasticism. A much greater wave of educated people. And the numbers increased dramatically from that time. So, it is a kind of real Renaissance in Tibet. It’s a time when Tibetan life, Buddhist life, in a way really comes into its own, which I’ll come back to and discuss more in, in a moment. Now, with that preliminary. I wonder should. Shall I do the? Where’s Rimpoche now?

Rimpoche: I’m here

Robert: Oh. Shall I do the slides now or shall we talk first a little bit about Atisha and show some of the slides of Tsongkhapa later? I think maybe we should first talk about the life of Tsongkhapa.

Rimpoche: Ok.

Robert: First talk about the life of Atisha and then the life of Tsongkhapa

Rimpoche: Fine

Robert: And then we’ll show the slides in between there. Because it will mean more when people have heard already about the life.

Rimpoche: Ok

0:09:00.8 Robert: In regard to Atisha, let me just introduce. Rimpoche is going to talk about Atisha’s visit in Tibet. In regard to this great figure, Atisha. And the reasons we begin with Atisha, is because Atisha is one of the major figures. Remember, we’ve been talking about Naropa, Virupa, who is in the Indian sources of these different movements. Remember Virupa was the source of the Sakyapa movement. Naropa was the source of the Kagyupa movement. And the Nyingma movement had its sources in the ancient period with Padmasambhava and so forth. Now, the source of the Gelugpa movement, which was originally called the Kadampa movement was the great Atisha, this Bengali prince who came to Tibet in 1042. And I’m going to leave you Rimpoche to tell you about his main teachings and his experience in Tibet. What I wanted to mention first was that Atisha was considered the sort of crown jewel of Indian pundits, which is a typical Tibetan type of expression. You know, he was like the all; crown ornament in the crown of the learned persons of India. He had studied everywhere in India and achieved many teachings and insights. Before that, he was a prince of Bengal and had studied even as a prince. In fact, quite a lot of them thought he was already a master even before he became a monk. He then, not only that, but he went to Indonesia as a young man, or middle age, to find certain teachings to recover. Particularly the lineage of compassion of love and compassion. The lineage that had descended from Shantideva four centuries previously. Which was a special lineage about the cultivation of empathy and the cultivation of wisdom. And he travelled in a long journey to Indonesia and spent thirteen years in Indonesia mastering that teaching. He then returned to India. And it was only then that he was invited and became a great master there. And when he went, had to go, was asked to go to Tibet, he refused a number of times. And because the people; and the people in India refused to let him go, because they considered him sort of a national treasure of Indian Buddhism. And this was the later period of Indian Buddhism when there had been a great deal of invasion already in India, in western India. And the Indus was already overrun by various Turkish Muslim conquerors. And a lot of the central India too. But Bengal was still secure and there was not yet any serious or enduring Muslim incursion into eastern India. Although it was only a matter of time. During the lifetime of Atisha in fact there were several new invasions and about a century later they more or less wiped-out Buddhism from India. So. So, it was hard for them to let Atisha to go. It was very lucky that he did go. And with that, I think, with that brief introduction to this concept of Renaissance Tibet, the time when the sort of the horizon is lifted and things are really brought into complete clarity in Tibetan tradition. And then jumping back to where the beginning source of that is from Atisha, the master Atisha, in his founding of the Kadampa school and his entry into Tibet in the eleventh century. I will turn over the life story of Atisha to you, Rimpoche. And then when you’re done with that, I will come back with Tsongkhapa’s life.

Rimpoche: Uh huh

Robert: Right?

0:12:06.7 Rimpoche: Thank you.

Robert: Ok.

Rimpoche: [I don’t need that. That’s ok.] The, what we call it, Atisha the great. The reason why Tibet needs person like Atisha at that period was; it was a bit, some time passed since the time of Padmasambhava and Shantarakshita. Who had brought the Buddhism over to the Tibet And then in between that period, a number of different scholars have come up and presented a number of different viewpoints; way of teaching, way of behaving, way of practicing, way of seeing the rituals and a number of them have introduced in Tibet. And quite a lot of them, Indian saint and scholars and started using magical powers to impress on people and also started using the mystical powers. It’s become sort of a very.

Robert: [Take one and pass it around}

Rimpoche: flourish throughout Tibet. That’s what’s happening at that time. So, the magical and mystical powers almost overtaking the actual spiritual work. And actual development and actual benefit for the individual who’s really seeking total awareness and total awakened position. What’s been disturbed and rather distracted by using the magical and mystical powers and channelizing powers and these and that. All sorts of funny things.

0:15:00.1 So, the Tibetans have drawn conclusion that it is necessary now to sort of, revive the actual real essence. Now, here the word essence begin to real the teachings of the Buddha which was really debated and stands out of all different criticisms and actual teaching which been practiced by the great so many scholars. And experienced and that’s what the really needed. And they’re losing that and they see it’s necessary for that. And that’s why they decided to send a number of different young intelligent Tibetan scholars; go into the India and see the real, the great monasteries and the universities. So, what they really they’re doing it; what that really actual practice is, how they approach their lives. How does the practice affect life of the individual who is learning there? And see it, learn it, and come back and tell us what is really going on. Which is the real watch. Ok. It almost become like a spiritual shopping center in Tibet at that time. Like what we are in the United States today. So. The necessity had came. And they send it; a number of different young scholars and since quite a lot of times, many of them draw a conclusion and they thought, “0:16:59.1 Please well(?), we could get a person like Atisha, who is the; one of the outstanding young Indian saint and scholar and who can bear a little hardship.” Because it’s very hardship in Tibet. Even then, it was, though eleven hundreds. So. So, they thought Atisha is the best. And a lot of things are going on. Some few individuals are try to invite Atisha up to Tibet. But it was not really successful. As the Professor had mentioned, the abbot of the Nalanda Monastery or University, whatever. They rather refer as university a number of times. Right?

Robert: Uh huh.

Rimpoche: And they’re called 0:17:57.2 abbot(?) Ratnakara(?) Is always the strongest obstacle to having Atisha going to Tibet. Because he thought Atisha needed to India, and particularly to that greatest monastery available in India, to uphold the Buddha’s teaching over there.

0:18:24.3 So, he was the biggest obstacle and he tried a number of times to reject the request to, even, to sort of, to the extent, even they don’t let the Tibetans come round at all. Sort of, keep them away from the monastery and sort of send them away from a long way. Now don’t let it get nearby even. Sort of, you know. He took that much precaution. And stand, even then the Tibetans had been very persistent, one after the another, no matter whatever he say. He may beat you up or slap you or throw you out or do whatever, you’ll be back again next morning. And to wait there and then keep on repeatedly doing it for year after year. Not like, you know, not like a couple of days or a number of phone calls. Sorry.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: So. Doesn’t give up. You cannot get it through; the line’s busy or something happens. They didn’t give up. Keep on doing it. So, he had policy, policy is. Ok. Let’s make it expensive, so that they cannot afford to it. And the Tibet, the word Tibet, came out of preta, actually. Yeah. It is actually word preta. The preta. You know what preta is, hungry ghost. Ok. So, that is the land. That’s what they refer to India at that time.

Robert: 0:20:04.5 (???botia)

Rimpoche: Yeah. Botia. Preta. All this. That’s how it come out. So. So, there’s a , this is a poor, poorest land. But they cannot afford. So, let us put the price of this scholar into gold. So, if the Tibetans could bring a lot of gold, we may consider to let him go. Otherwise, no way. Ok. That’s what it is. So, the Tibetans are busy to collectng the gold around. Gold. So, at that time the ruler. I think, the one of the, who did he mention, the Sakya, Sakya lama who was here, Pema. I think he did mention the name of 0:20:53.6Hla Lama Yeshe O.

Robert: Yeshe O.Yeah. Uh huh.

Rimpoche: Jangchub O. On Saturday, I think.

Robert: Correct

Rimpoche: So. Yeshe O. Now, who is the? Now, I forgot. Who is the Yeshe O

Robert: Yeshe O is the father. Oh, the uncle

Rimpoche: Uncle.

Robert: Jangchub was the nephew.

Rimpoche: Jangchub is the nephew. Ok.

Robert: Uh huh.

0:21:10.4 Rimpoche: So, it was the Yeshe O rule. So, he was going around and started collecting gold without indulging in non-virtuous actions. Now, the Tibetans are, as I mentioned to you, as rough and tough, even at that period. So, they could have been very strong warriors. They could have fought a war and conquered number of different little kingdom around and collect their wealth. And go to India to buy a scholar. But. But Yeshe O made a wise choice. It is not proper to involve, particularly non-virtuous act, particularly killings, where they’re involved to raise gold. It is not a wise idea. So, they, including king; they started going around in various manner to collect gold. And while he is collecting the gold, in various manner, one of this anti-Tibetan forces. Anti-Buddhist forces kingdom arrested him. Got him. And they arrested him. And they refused to let him go. And they refused to let him go. And that moment, his nephew was sort of young, took over and started, sort of calculating and seeing sort of what the policy he should take better. How to get release his uncle. And how to get this scholar from India. And these are the sort of two major responsibilities or goal of his ruling. He took it. And he started working and he said “If I collect the Tibetan soldiers and they attack that kingdom,” He said, “It will take me a couple of days just to destroy it thoroughly. But it is not worth to going into the trouble of killing that much people. And wasting of that much life.” So, he chose to negotiate with that ruler, rather than attack. And he totally refused to negotiate. And simply saying that “The gold that you have collected bring all to us. Total. So that I could consider to release him.” Even for consideration.

0:24:04.8 So, he collected quite number of gold. And took over and say, 0:24:15.9 “Well, decide of gold is valuable(??). And that king said, “It is joke. Take this gold away. You bring gold equal to his body weight. So, that we can weight him with gold and when you measure, when you have the whole thing equal to, then I can let him go. Otherwise, no. No way.” So, he went back and worked hard for some more gold and went back. And he said, “Well, I got equal to his body weight now.” So, they said, “Well, you may have equal to the body weight, but I want double the head weight.” You know, the head, whatever it is weigh. That’s one doubled amount on that. “So, when I get the doubled body plus another head’s weight, and then I will let him go.” So, at about that time he said, “Can I talk to him? Can I see him?” and that king of the 0:25:26.8 caliphate(???) told him, “Ok. You may go.” And he’s put under some prison, sort of a, you know, really a bad prison in a little sort of a basement down. Huh?

Robert: Dungeon.

Rimpoche: Dungeon somewhere, right? And he said, “You can look through and talk to him.” So, he was a bit upset and sad and very afraid and, and started shouting from outside the door, and said, “Uncle. I’m here. And I have collected this much gold. I give him the gold and he promise that he will release you. But now again, he wants the body, the gold equal to your head weight. And I will have that soon and come and release you.” And he said, “But I considered what best action to be taken and I. It won’t take much time for us to fight with him and conquer; conquer his kingdom totally. But I decided not to do, because it will create a lot of non-virtuous. Lot of killing. Innocent peoples’ lives will be lost. So, it is not worth to taking it. So, I hope you don’t mind that I’ve taken that decision and I hope you will agree what I have done. And soon I will have the gold equal to your head weight and then I’ll come and get you. But til then, please take care of yourself. Be happy. And I won’t take very long.” So, to that he replied, from the inside, it’s a very weak voice. He said, “You are a spoiled young boy and I thought you will not be able to take any good responsibility. But the action what you have taken now, had proved that you are a good person. And moving to the right direction. And I am really happy. Even I die now, I’m totally relaxed. And do not give a single gold to this king. It is worthless. And even he release me,” He said, “Even you give him another head weight, he may want another one and whatever it is. But even if he release me, I have only ten more years to live. For ten years of living, and for the expenses of bringing the great spiritual path to a number of people. If we wasted this much gold, even the Buddha’s and bodhisattvas will think that. But it is a disgrace of our action among those Buddhas and bodhisattvas. So, therefore, do not give him a single piece of gold and take all the gold. Take it to India. Give it to the, whoever they wanted, whether the monastery or the abbot or the whoever. Give all the golds to them. And carry back great pundit Atisha”

0:28:54.5 He says, “I have choosing to give my life for him to come over to Tibet. And give the authentic teachings of the Buddha, based on the Buddha’s experience. Based on the experience of the great masters and scholars and saints and your own personal practice, through which path you’re following. We want that. For that sake I’m totally giving up my life. And be kind to us and please come over to Tibet. And this is my last word.” And this is message he sent it. Actually, sad message. And now I skip who went and who choose and how and who; all this. Ok? So, finally the Lotsawa, what we call it; the great translators, who went over to India and approach Atisha. And 0:30:06.7 abbot(?) Ratnakara. And give all the gold to them on the mandala offering and give the message to Atisha, of the late king. And then, the Atisha said, “Well, I have wasted a number, lot of lives and wealth of these poor Tibetans. And that ruler must be a great bodhisattva too. And if I totally refuse now. Well, I’m shamed of that late king too. So, I may go.” Now, he’s really consideration. Until then, there’s no consideration for whatsoever. “I may go, but before I go, I have to ask the deity Tara.” The female deity, Tara. “I’ll ask her and take here advice what to do. So, why don’t you? You don’t see anybody. You don’t meet anybody. Don’t go anywhere. Hide in your room, until I’ve been able to get answer from Tara and then I’ll let you know. And I will tell you how to make a move. And you don’t go and see the abbot or anybody else.” So, that was Atisha’s advice for Nagtso Lotsawa. So, in the meantime, Atisha made mandala offering to Tara and prayed to Tara and requested her to answer, “What to do? Should I go to Tibet or not?” So, Tara’s answer is very simple. “You go to Tibet. There will be great help to so many people. .But your life will be shortened by ten years. The choice is yours. Your life will be shortened. Shorter. Ten years. If you live in India, you’ll live ten years more. If you go to Tibet, you’ll die ten years earlier. But it will be great help to so many people in future. So, the choice is yours.”

0:32:21.2 That was simple answer Tara had given. So, then Atisha made up his mind. He will go. So, he said, “Well. For the sake of sentient beings and for help them, if I can shorten my life ten years, it is worth for me to sacrifice. So, let me go.” So, then he advised how to approach the Abbot. And told the abbot that he took advice. You’re not taking long. It’s only for three years; nothing more. And the man should swear by his name and all this. There are a lot of technical things involved. It’s not so important. I will not go into it. So, what Atisha then finally decided to come to Tibet. And he came over. And when he reached Tibet, the first thing the king requested him, “We are not interested for magical power. We are not interested for mysterious powers. We are interested in total liberation. We are interested to obtain Buddhahood. We would like to know the real essence of the Buddha’s teaching, through simple easy practice and if you could give that based on your own practice. And that is only we’ll take.” So, Atisha was very happy. So, he said, 0:34:07.7 (Tibetan:…) You got that?

Audience: We got it.

Rimpoche: Good. By the insistence; I’m trying to translate. Ok? By the insistence of the great disciples, I will explain the Buddha path. Ok. Why call it great? Now, here it is so important. Call it great disciple. And always through our teaching lineage, he said. Why Atisha choose to call it great disciple. Not because he happens to be king. Not because he give all the gifts. Not because he sent the gold. But because he seek the actual authentic teachings which lead to the Buddhahood. Which is the real precious path. True path which leads to the Buddhahood.

0:35:18.9 So, therefore he was called great disciple. So, Atisha give very, very short; two-page. Two-page. Simple, short, two-page teaching, or wrote rather, sort of poem; poetical form, which be everybody can say by mouth and can print and meditate and practice. Yet it has all the true path, from the ordinary level here, to the Buddhahood. Every step. And each step; the obstacles and how to overcome. All of them are included in two-page poem. And this is the essence of the teachings of the Buddhas. What we call it, sutras and commentaries given by the early Indian scholars, called the shastras.

Robert: Shastras

Rimpoche: And the essence of the sutras and the shastras. One of the Indian scholar at that time even joked, when he saw what Atisha wrote. He said, “The books in India at that time. They all shivers. 0:36:47.5 He our essence, the heart has been stolen.” Ok. That is really, that much important what Atisha managed to put in two-page. Which has four extraordinary qualities in it. Which shows the teachings of the Buddha is not contradicting to each other. Particularly, the sutra and tantra. At about that time, the Tibetans become a bit of funny area. And some people who are practicing the tantra, who are following those siddhis. And they said, “Oh. These monks are useless. What can they do? They simply just discipline themselves and they’re stupid. They’re sort of looking like this. They say only little things. We are the Mahayana tantra who can turn the whole world on the 0:37:57.3 (???). And they’re useless.” Sort of look down. And those monks; they say, “Eh. These are the mad people. They say they call themselves tantra. And what it is. It doesn’t even have the essence of the Buddha; what really is the basic vinaya rules. They don’t even have them. They’re drinking. They’re married. Arrgh.”

0:38:19.5 So. So, sort of, what real happening is contradicting to each other; the sutra and tantra was really. It’s like, you know. It’s like sort of a big, like hot and cold. It sort of, you know, really they bound to each other and like that. It is not the fault of tantra and sutra. But the fault of the people who think they know. Who they think, a lot of people think they know. In reality they know nothing. But when they think they know, particularly the danger, when they can read something and when they know the, you know, covered meaning; know, they know the meaning the direct, what the words says. Ok. Like you can take a dictionary and see, what does that word mean. The dictionary says, “Oh yeah. That’s 0:39:14.8 mmm(?)” It doesn’t work that way at all in Buddhist literature. Totally different. You may learn language through the dictionary. I’m sure you agree. Or you have something else to do.

Robert: No. No. No. I agree. I agree. Agreed

Rimpoche: Alright. Ok. So. That’s exactly what’s happening. And so, they just took the, sort of, you know, superficial meanings and they think they know everything. So, which created trouble, not only for themselves, but for the total everything. So, taking everything contradicting. Well, if you practice the Vajrayana, you don’t have to have practiced sutra at all. If you are doing sutra, you don’t have to take tantra at all. And all these are contradicting. Which was totally put into the practice of one individual. A step-by-step development by the two-page of the Atisha word. And that was the greatest Indian saint and scholar’s contribution toward the development of Buddhism in Tibet. So, not only that, when Atisha started teaching, a lot of, a number of Tibetan scholars have started learning from Atisha. And many of them started following Atisha, wherever they go. Particularly, the great Dromton Rimpoche. Drom Rimpoche is such a fine lay person. And they, a lot of them say, he’s she. Really.

Robert: I know

0:41:01.1 Rimpoche: A lot of them say Drom Rimpoche is “she”. But at that time, it was so much, you know, sort of, very orthodox, conservative period. So, they told it’s he. But anyway, whenever you look into Drom Rimpoche’s picture, he or she wears some kind of a funny layman’s dress. White color and huge one. And have a belt which goes round nine times her body around. You know. That’s what she gives it away. All the time. That’s how Dromton Rimpoche was. So, the day when Dromton Rimpoche was supposed to meet Atisha, Atisha was invited by somebody for a dinner. So, Atisha didn’t go on time. He delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed. But Drom didn’t show up at all. So, finally he has to go. So, when Atisha went there and Atisha went there and they served the dinner. He said, 0:42:04.0 Well, my upasika(?). My upasika(?) That means, one of my disciples with vows. I want her share. Food share. He demanded extra food for there. So, they’re giving the upasika food and Atisha wanted extra food. And then by the time when Drom Rimpoche reached where Atisha’s staying and Atisha’s not there. And she asked, he asked, Let it “he” whatever. Dromton Rimpoche asked, “Where has Atisha gone?” They said, “Well, he’s gone for dinner. It’s about to come your way.” She thought for a minute. She said, “Look. I can’t wait for him to come back, so I must go there and see him.” So, he started going that side and Atisha was leaving and coming back. They met on the road. So, Dromton Rimpoche started prostrating Atisha. Right in the middle of the street. And Atisha said, “Hey, I brought dinner for you. Your share of dinner.” You know. So, that is how they met. But in that dinner, the piece of butter and some other foods. When Drom Rimpoche thought for a while and what do, what do I do with the butter? This butter. Should I eat or I should I not? Really thought for a bit, “Well, let me not eat.” So, she decided to make butter lamp and made a butter lamp and put on Atisha’s table, by the time Atisha went to sleep. Since that day, until Atisha passed away, he, Dromton Rimpoche put every single day, a butter lamp on Atisha’s table. Never missed a single day. That’s why it’s called 0:43:55.2 (Tibetan: kam dam ten pa jur me) the light of the teaching. (pause)

0:44:21.4 The Drom Rimpoche and number of other people who are learning from Atisha .And that’s what we call it Kadam tradition. The tradition which is called Kadampa. The word, meaning of the Kadampa means, every single teaching of the word of the Buddha. Every single word said by Buddha. That is Ka, word, every single word is meant for one individual to obtain enlightenment. It is not contradicting to each other. But every single word is meant for one individual to take, to bring, to obtain enlightenment. There is a not a single word to be thrown out. Out of the teachings of the Buddha. That’s why Kadampa. The word Kadampa is. So, there are a number of different Kadampas. Three divisions. And I will not go into that tradition, in that detail. But one thing I must tell you here, ever since then, Drom Rimpoche has been working with Atisha, wherever he goes. And sort of like a personal servant. Plus interpreter. Plus everything. Plus guide, secretary, the personal attendant. Everything. Drom Rimpoche been working since then. And there are number of other people serving Atisha. Looking after his horse. Cooking for him. And all this. There are a number of other people who simply decided to meditate and go into the retreat, cave area, come down, take the teaching, go into the mountains. Meditate. One of them called. 0:46:20.3 (Tibetan: Neljor wangchub palden gombowa) The great yoga of meditator. He’s known as great yoga meditator because he’s, he only does, come down, 0:46:30.8 hear the teachings(??) and goes to the mountain and meditate. So, one day neljor wangchub palden gombowa, the great meditator thought, “Well. Atisha has been here for quite some time. We have taken a number of teachings. We have great many people together with Atisha. But well, his most outstanding favorite student, disciple is Drom Rimpoche. However, he is very busy with Atisha all the time, except maybe cleaning and washing and running here and there, serving. Did not have time to meditate at all. But I am the one who have been able to have meditate, sit on the mountain, day and night, meditating. So, I must be the highest developed person.” That’s what he thought.

0:47:26.4 So, Atisha sure enough knows exactly what’s going on in his head. So, Atisha said, “Where does the competition among the disciples, what level they have developed.” So, when they’re competing, the person who was meditating up there, leave Drom Rimpoche out. He’s development could not even challenge the person who is looking after the horses of Atisha. Could not even challenge. No comparison. Even with the person who is looking after the horse of Atisha. Did you get? Forget about Drom Rimpoche. So, he got biggest shock in his life. Thinking that he had been very nice meditating and that these people are busy looking after and working and all this. How can they develop much more than I who meditated day and night? So, the answer is for you to find out why. I don’t have to answer. You are intelligent. Study. Right?

Robert: I don’t know if you’re going to get away with that Rimpoche for too long.

Rimpoche: I hope so.

Audience:…??

Rimpoche: What did you say?

Audience: I said, he had to have noticed he studied.

Rimpoche: ok

0:49:08.6 Audience: Thanks for that..??.

Rimpoche: Ok. After that, this Kadam tradition all has been developed so many great monasteries in Tibet. Particularly the 0:49:20.9 Kadam tenpai(?) Tsampo Reting Monastery. The Reting monastery is the, the first Kadampa monasteries, as a matter of fact, Reting Rimpoche was the Regent of Tibet in 1930’s. And that, his monastery, Reting was the Drom Rimpoche’s monastery and first Kadampa monastery. When Drom Rimpoche finished building the monastery, he; Dromton Rimpoche really wanted Atisha to consecrate the monastery. Really wanted. But Atisha promised to consecrate the monastery but Atisha already died before the monastery completed.

0:50:08.6 So, at the time of the consecration day. At the day of the consecration. 0:50:14.4 (Tibetan: gan den ratna …tsol wa deb) So, Atisha started throwing the rice and flowers from the Tushita heaven and it landed in the monastery that day. Everybody has seen it. Including Drom Rimpoche and those who are present. The consecration was done from the Tushita heaven. And flowers and rice have thrown from there has landed in the Reting monastery. Ok. Now, the Kadampa has three divisions; 0:50:49.5 Kadam gzhung bawa(?). Kadam man ngag pa, Kadam. What is (?).

Robert: Forget

Rimpoche: Kadam gzhung bawa, Kadam Man Ngag Pa. I just don’t remember. Huh?

Audience: I ????? with them

Robert: Kadam

Rimpoche: And other one.

Robert: Chen Ngawa

Rimpoche: I was explaining.

Robert: Kadam Chen Ngawa

Rimpoche: Ok. And I explain other one. 0:51:13.1 Gzhung Ba pa (Gonbawa?) was the one who really take the most important for the philosophical and theoretical points of it and give a detail academic studies and academic teachings and academic way is the Kadam Gzhung Ba pa(?). Kadam Man Ngag Pa is the very, sort of lesser intelligent. No chance. Not much time to go into the detail study, but really prescribed, guided step by step, sort of following it is the 0:51:49.2 (???????). The other one is combined. Not so much of detailed philosophical of it, but it is; it’s not a none and quite a lot of philosophical academic and also. And also, they are sort of guided principles practice. Ok. This sort of three divisions been going with all different teachings. Finally, all three are joined together. They are three great monasteries in Tibet. Before Drepung, Sera and Ganden, it is the 0:52:23.2 Kyomo lung(??), Narthang (Katok??) and Sangpu. Each one of them have a principle life. Each one of these way of practicing it. And all of them together taught and practiced by the great Tsongkhapa who was born in 1357. Now, the floor is yours.

0:52:45.4 Robert: Oh. Thank you Rimpoche. (Kyomo lung, Gadong(?) and Sangpu???).

Rimpoche: Sangpu

Robert: 0:52:49.6 (Gadong. This is Gadong oracle Sherabpa???) right?

Rimpoche: Uh huh

Robert: Ok. 0:52:53.2 Now I’m (??). Three friends of Kadampa. Three. Ok, Rimpoche. Thank you very much. Now. If I; before starting with Tsongkhapa, let me. I just wanted to backtrack a little on what you are saying. Not; no debate, though. I have no debate. I enjoy it. I enjoy it. I enjoy it so much. I don’t have any dispute. Except. Oh, one point I have to.

Rimpoche: Ok. Good

Robert: And that is, that Atisha was not so young at that time

Rimpoche: Oh, that’s right.

Robert: Already late forties.

Rimpoche: That’s true.

Robert: Although we are young.

Rimpoche: Well. Would you consider yourself old man?

Robert: A little bit, sometimes. Depends on the time of day.

Rimpoche: I got a baby from the 0:53:29.3 ordin(??).

Robert: But. So, that was one thing. Second thing that what you are saying is, I remembered one thing. Geshe Wangyal la used to always talk about Atisha. And in his book. The book, Door to Liberation, he begins with Kadam the Torbu sayings of the Kadampas of Atisha.

Rimpoche: That’s right

Robert: And I just thought to add to what you are saying, two of those stories which I particularly like. One of them. The very beginning of the Kadam Torbu, which is the recording of the sayings of the master Atisha to his disciples. He was asked by three major disciples, Khu, Ngok and Drom.

Rimpoche: That’s right

Robert: And they asked him. Khu, Ngok and Drom asked Atisha, they said, “Which is more important: to master completely all of the sutras and the shastras or to realize the precept of the lama?” The guru’s precept that is; the lama’s precept. Atisha said, “Rather, if it’s a matter of either/or mastering all of the sutras and the shastras the vast literature, vast philosophical knowledge or following the precepts of the lama. It is more important to follow the precepts of the lama.” He said. “Why is that? Because,” he said, “Even if you know all the sutras and the shastras, you can repeat by heart.” I think he said, “All of the sutras and shastras. You know their meanings. All of the sutras. You can philosophically expound them and debate them. All the sutras and shastras. If you do not have them in your heart in the form of the precepts of the lama at the time of practice, you and that knowledge you have will go separate ways.”

0:55:06.4 (Tibetan: ….) He said, “It is the precepts of the lama that takes the knowledge of sutra and shastras and makes it into a kind of ball, a lump that then can be taken into the heart of the disciple, so that the dharma and the person don’t separate. Otherwise, the dharma becomes one thing and the person another. And they go their separate ways.” 0:55:33.0 (Tibetan: ..)

Rimpoche: To get. To get. To get one word in that,

Robert: Yes

Rimpoche: What Atisha really used, he said, “There is a man riding a horse.” Robert: Yes.

Rimpoche: “Horse. Can go in between the dharma and the person.” That’s what

Robert: Yes, yes, yes. So, you’re right

Rimpoche: 0:55:48.1 (Tibetan:….)

0:55:51.4 Robert: So, “A horse and rider could go in between; they’re so far apart.” He said. What is fascinating about that is that often. And Geshe-la used to talk about that all the time. And he used to say, “This proves; this saying of Atisha’s shows that the form of Buddhism in Tibet, which was always associated with the teaching of the individual master in relation to the individual person and came as a result of the lineage, unbroken lineage from the Buddha, down until Atisha. Of master to disciple who became master to disciple, master to disciple. It shows that this for which Tibetan Buddhism was called Lamaism at some point. But this proves that this was not something made up by Tibetans. It came as the full and final form of Buddhism from India. In a way Atisha represents the sort of final flowering of Indian Buddhism. In other words, in sort of as far as Buddhism could get in India would reach to Atisha. He was really the pinnacle of the sort of synthesis of all the teachings of Buddhism. And he brought that.” And so, the Kadampa masters were very known for their immediate practice. And therefore, this lama precept business is not just a matter of sort of guru worship. It’s guru devotion. That’s not the point. People then think, well, Tibetans are, you know, just a bunch of obedient and this big authority is the lamas. They go around. They run around. They’re doing a lot of guru worship all the time. That’s all it is. But it’s not a matter of simply guru worship. Because in fact or rather that’s a matter of misunderstanding guru worship or lama worship to think that they’re just worshiping this guru. It is said there’re three ways of following the teacher; the lama’s precept. By being nice to the lama and serving, by being pleasant to the lama and then by making gifts to the lama. Those are two kinds. The third kind is said to be, carrying out the lama’s teaching. Or that is to say, realizing what the lama is teaching you; the guru’s teaching you. And that is said to be the real form of guru worship. In other words, one worships one’s teacher, not by serving or by showing all sorts of forms or by doing things. But by understanding what they are teaching. As putting it into your own heart. That’s really what. So, it’s not. So, in other words, it’s a matter.

0:58:09.1 Although there is this personal business, this personal business is not in order to just subject disciples to sort of like, thinking some guru is so great. The reason of the personal business, is so that the disciple takes the dharma personally. And so, the disciple practices and makes sure that he only knows as much dharma as is in his heart. For example, which then connects with the story you told. For example, the guy who was taking care of the horses had to shovel a lot of horse manure and he had to do that in some way where he had to practice tolerance and patience and generosity and so forth. And it could be that that was a more powerful meditation. Not that he was not meditating. It was perhaps more powerful. The other guy was sitting peacefully looking there, while they were making his food and they were preparing his things. Perhaps the meditation of taking care of the horses in the presence of the lama with that particular lama to scold and to provoke and to irritate and to make trouble with. And to point out, bring make personal the practice and his meditation was perhaps even more powerful. A second example of this that I wanted to tell, just as those two, because I love this story. Geshe Wangyal used to love it. It’s about the famous Geshe, Ben Gungyal his name was. And he had many stories, Geshe Ben Gungyal. But the one that I particularly like, is the one where one day Geshe Ben Gungyal was visiting a patron. What?

Rimpoche: Ben Gungyal

Robert: Ben Gungyal was visiting this house of a patron, a wealthy patron in the town near Reting. And suddenly everybody in the whole town was in an uproar because there was this uproar coming from the patron’s house. And Geshe Gungyal was saying, “I caught. Come everybody. I caught the thief. I caught the thief.” He was saying. And when they came in, they found Geshe Ben Gungyal all alone. And he was shouting, “I caught the thief. I caught the thief. Come. Come. I caught the thief.” So, then they said, “Well, what happened Geshe Ben?” they said. And Geshe Ben was sitting in the patron’s place and they went out to do something. And he was, you know, been served tea and he was having some biscuits or whatever it was. And then he was looking and they had a storage bin there and they had some very good Chinese tea in this one storage bin. And some other things. And they specially like this tea. So, he thought, “Well, they have a lot of tea. They won’t miss this little bit of tea.” So, he went over and he; he was going to take some tea and put it in his sleeve. It’s a great Geshe. Already liked 1:00:35.8 him personally. He could; he thought, “Well. A little tea. Who’s going to miss it?” You know. So, he put his hand into the tea like this and he was taking up the tea. And then, suddenly, he realized that he and the dharma shouldn’t be separate. And so, he grabbed himself, like this. And he had a hold of his other (laughs). And he said, “Tea in the 1:00:55.6 fifth.” And he ran out and said “I’ve caught the thief. I’ve caught the thief.” And they said, “Well, look.” He said. “Here’s the thief.” And he showed his hand. It’s full of tea. This was immediate practice. Immediate practice.

1:01:09.1 Ok. Now, we come to the life of Tsongkhapa, several centuries later. Which is a long skip. You like that story, don’t you, Rimpoche?

Rimpoche: Yeah.

Robert: Geshe Ben.

Rimpoche: Yeah. Very.

Robert: There’s many Geshe Ben stories.

Rimpoche: Ben Gungyal, so many of them.

Robert: Now, actually. Tsongkhapa was born many centuries later. Three hundred years later. And 1357. And by the time he was born, the Sakyapa rule had deteriorated in Tibet. And a, the Mongol Empire had also somewhat deteriorated. And China reverted to its own national dynasty, separated from Tibet. The Ming Dynasty. And Tibet also reverted to a national secular dynasty known as the Phagmodrupa dynasty headed by a king by the name of Changchub Gyaltsen, who was a very important figure; famous leader. And so, Tibet had again become independent from Mongolian rule All of Asia; each country had reverted back to local rule so to speak. China had locally gone back, and Tibet had locally gone back. And so, Tsongkhapa also luckily had a time of sort of, political freedom without the problems of any sort of Mongols running around. And it was the time of great flourishing and flowering in Tibet. Tsongkhapa was recognized in his early; actually, before he was born. Actually, it is said that there was a siddha named Losang Drakpa who lived down in south Tibet, who recognized that this great incarnation was going to be born in the northeast part of Tibet. And he told one important Kadampa teacher named Rinchen Dondrub; Dondrub Rinchen, that this great lama would be found. If he travelled up to the northeast, he would find a great disciple, who he should teach, who was his destined disciple. And he asked him, when he found him, to give him his name Losang Drakpa, which was the name of this mystic; the siddha. Right? In mid central, in central Tibet. So that, after he was a baby of only a few months, I believe, this Dondrub Rinchen arrived in the area and he went to the parents and said, he wanted to have this boy as his disciple. And he gave them many gifts and he said, he’ll wait around for a while, so that, I think, Tsongkhapa stayed about eighteen months or two years with his own parents. And then he went over with the, with the Geshe Rinchen Dondrub, who came especially moved to that area and stayed nearby until it was time for him to accept Tsongkhapa as his disciple. There were many visions. There’s a lot of wonderful things. They said there was wonderful visions that Tsongkhapa’s mother saw and father saw.

1:03:42.5 I particularly like the one that his mother saw, where round the time of his conception, she felt a whirlwind of golden light enter into her head. And went down through her nervous system; that she had an experience like that. And another wonderful experience; one night she had a dream, and, in the dream, someone came, and they were looking for someone and then. And then they found her. Same people who had come at the time, where they had found her, and this golden light had descended into her. And they found her, and then they went into her womb and opened it up and inside it was the treasure; one of those Tibetan treasure caskets, in this dream. And they took out of it, a statue of Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva of great compassion and then they washed the statue of Avalokiteshvara. And then they put it back and they wrapped it up again and they closed the treasure casket and then shut up her stomach again. She had dreams like this. And during the time of his birth, there were a lot of auspicious signs and so on. And so, everybody was expecting quite something when he was born. And he was apparently quite cute, actually. And very precocious. He began to talk pretty soon. Although he did not actually. Previous. There are said to be three incarnations of Manjushri. 1:03:42.5 Jangchub. Jamyang Nam sum, in Tibet. Sakya Pandita, Longchen Rabjampa and Tsongkhapa is the third. In the 1:05:08.4 si rab (?). There are other sets of three. This isn’t that. But there were particularly three Manjushri’s. And of the three, the only one I know of who spoke Sanskrit at an early age was Sakya Pandita. As the lama, last week mentioned, he didn’t actually mention. What he didn’t mention, was that when that Sakya Pandita did speak Sanskrit, his mother thought he was retarded. She thought he was crazy. The Tibetans didn’t know Sanskrit and this guy is going you know, 1:05:31.5 (Sanskrit: am gajati am gajam) He’s going in Sanskrit. They thought he was nuts; you know. They thought there was something wrong with him. Tsongkhapa, far as I know, did not speak Sanskrit, although, he did one thing that was pretty good. That is, that after he was born, the afterbirth of his born, was thrown outside the house by the people, the nurses and so forth. And then fairly promptly, a tree grew from that. And this is this extraordinary tree that was even seen thousand years. No. Three hundred years later by the French father Huc and Gabet and they actually; Huc went out one night. He writes in his book, Travels in Tartary, that he cut into the tree with his knife. Cut his swiss, it was a swiss.

1:06:12.6 He cut in there with his pocketknife. And he found that this tree had on its bark; it had the syllables OM AH RA PA TSA NA DHI. And its leaves had the Sanskrit mantra letters: OM AH RA PA TSA NA DHI on it. And he went in to cut into the bark and found, because he thought maybe they had been branded on there by the lamas to get donations from the tithes. You know, to act like it was something marvelous. So, he actually he cut deep and he found that the, the syllables, the Sanskrit syllables came out of the tree bark. In deep inside of the grain of the tree. Which kind of this grew from the afterbirth of Tsongkhapa, it is said. This sort of freaked out Huc. He didn’t know what to say. He said, “Well, the devil works in strange ways.” Because, you know, since they weren’t Christians, he couldn’t figure out such a miracle, you know. Anyway, Tsongkhapa began to study very soon. He was precocious. He learned to read immediately. He studied a lot of things. He was initiated by Dondrub Rinchen early on in life and he stayed with him until he was about sixteen. And studied a number of things and was initiated particularly into the Yamantaka tantra. Which Dondrub Rinchen had a special lineage of. And that was his own. That is the most innermost teaching of Manjushri, in a way. And. But he’s a young boy and he just practiced it and meditated it. He didn’t really go fully into that. He was more studying exter, you know, exoteric, exoteric things. And he was already showing his great ability and precocity. When he was about sixteen, Dondrub Rinchen sent him down to central Tibet. Which he didn’t go, because he was too old. To study with the all the many great teachers there. And Tsongkhapa left with some famous last advice by Dondrub Rinchen. When he got there, he studied with I believe fifty-five different teach, major teachers, from the Kagyupa orders. Different Kagyupa orders. From the Sakyapas. From various Nyingmapas and Kadampas. All the available good teachers in Tibet, basically. He mastered and the curricula of all of the different orders. And studied and practiced exhaustively. He. When he was only twenty-two, he had his first sort of major breakthrough experience, you could say. Where one day in the monastery of Kyomo Lung actually. It was the one you mentioned. Kyomo Lung Monastery. During a chanting of the Heart of Wisdom sutra, he just suddenly spaced out, sort of. And the monks left him there for two, three days. He just became entranced. You know, he didn’t move. He didn’t hear anything that was going on. Finally, they became nervous and they kind of woke him up. And this was a very big experience for him. Although he then continued right on with his study. He didn’t go around and think that he had achieved enlightenment from that. But he had achieved some very strong level of samadhi or trance in that experience.

1:08:43.0 Then after that, he began to study very much the logical teachings of Dharmakirti. And he had other experiences studying the Buddhist logic. Especially the section of Dharmakirti where he proves that the Buddha is what he called a. The Buddha is the personification of reason. There’s a famous section of the Dharmakirti book, where he proves that a Buddha is reason incarnate. You know, sort of philosophical insight incarnate. It’s Pramana Buddha. It’s a famous Indian expression. And Dharmakirti, great Indian master, wrote a marvelous commentary on that, which in a sense unifies. What it is, is a sort of, one of the locus classicus in Sanskrit, that sort of unifies in Indian Buddhism, reason and faith. You know, it brings reason and faith into a single point. So, there is absolutely no contradiction between the two. And Tsongkhapa was reading that, and he was weeping and so forth. And he was meditating at that time. This was another great breakthrough of his. And he was and he was. He had a. His particular most important teacher was a Sakyapa scholar by the name of Rendawa, whose name is Rendawa. Who is one of the great masters in the Sakyapa colleges of the day. And he and Tsongkhapa used to go around, and they would teach each other. And this would become a kind of event. They would sort of. Hundreds of people would follow them around and listen to their teachings. And one would teach one thing and one would teach another thing. And they were both great masters. And this was, quite amazing. And he wrote at this time; Tsongkhapa, sort of, his first thesis, a book called the Golden Rosary, which was a book about the Prajnaparamita or transcendent wisdom. And then a funny thing happened. A fellow, very rough and hippie-ish sort of fellow, came from eastern Tibet, Northeastern Tibet. A fellow who was known as Lama Umapa. And Lama Umapa. This; I hope you will not be, excuse me Rimpoche. I will say something about. Lama Umapa was kind of dirty hippie type. He; now he’s revered. The great Lama Umapa and his reincarnations around. And he was sort of. But he was. Actually, he was a cowherd. And very, kind of grubby and dirty. And illiterate also. But one day, he was herding his cows, and he heard a noise sort of like a jet airplane going through a sonic boom. Or something like that. And he fainted. He passed out. And when he woke up, Manjushri was sitting there in this ball of light. Orange Manjushri inside a blue globe, saying, “Aren’t you ever going to wake up?” You know, “What is with you?” type of thing. And from that time, he always saw this Manjushri. All the time. You know, there was like a sort of a globe, leading him around in life and he would talk to him this way, that way. Just a mystic angel, like. It was not that the angel would arrive sometimes. He always saw him. All the time.

1:11:15.8 So, then the Manjushri said, “I have an errand for you.” After a while you know. “And first you should go and learn something.” And he sent him around to then again here and there. To learn a little bit about the dharma. And to learn. I think he learned to read, maybe, barely. And then finally, Manjushri led him to Tsongkhapa. And when Tsongkhapa met him, he just flipped out. I always think of, you know, Rumi sort of, if you know about Sufism, you know that famous story of Rumi and 1:11:38.9 Shams-i Tabrizi. His great spiritual preceptor who was this sort of illiterate person. It’s very similar to that. And he sort of, walked up to this place where Tsongkhapa was teaching with Rendawa and as soon as Tsongkhapa saw him, he knew that this was somebody in his destiny, you know. And he completely, like, 1:11:55.7 guru(?) was into Lama Umapa and very shortly thereafter, he excused himself from, sort of the academy. Like somebody, sort of like, leaving his post; quitting his tenure. And off he headed to a retreat cave with this Lama Umapa to study more deeply the various subjects that he was supposedly already a master of. As far as at least the external world was concerned. And so, he and Lama. And actually, at the time, this is played down in later biographies. But it actually comes out that, as later Tibetans don’t really think about that. But actually, Rendawa and other masters were very concerned. They thought Tsongkhapa had flipped out. He had. You know. He’d been a lot of promise, a little too bright. And now he’s gone off the edge, you know. And he went off with this sort of freak. You know. Off to the woods, you know. And they were very bugged about it actually. And they thought, “Gee, this is terrible. Won’t you come back and teach next spring.” They have another set of courses, etc. And Tsongkhapa said, “Well. Maybe.” And then they have. But then they went 1:12:43.7 off.(?) No. For Tsongkhapa, of course, this was an absolute feast, because here was this mind, who had studied with all the greatest teachers in Tibet of the day. And still dissatisfied on many fine points about many questions. And now he has the chance to ask Manjushri himself. And Manjushri. That would be just like asking the angel Gabriel if you are a Christian. 1:13:02.5 Miss(?). Actually, ask and talk to the Angel Gabriel. Then you have him as a captive faculty. A visiting faculty. Just ask him anything you want. Talk to him all day. But he had to ask Umapa, because he couldn’t see Manjushri. So, he would ask Umapa. Then Umapa would ask Manjushri. Then they would have dialog like this for a few months. And then this became pretty unwieldy. Because Umapa did not have the education to really make the translations almost. And Tsongkhapa is asking about this Prasangika; very difficult philosophical things. And very subtle tantra, type of points. And Umapa would have very pressed to sort of, bridge this communication between the two. So, then he gave Tsongkhapa a teaching, to practice purification and to visualize and evoke Manjushri. And Tsongkhapa practiced that and after about, what? A month, or six weeks or something, Tsongkhapa himself was able to see Manjushri. And then they began to talk all three together. And for about another six months or so, I believe. At the end of the six months, Tsongkhapa thought that he gotten things pretty straight.

1:14:01.6 And he then, one day, asked Manjushri. He said, “Well, you’re holding us. I need to. I’d just like to know one thing and that is, is my view, the view of a Prasangika or a Svatantrika Madhyamika?” These are two branches of the central way of thought: Madhyamika. “And which am I? Am I a Svatantrika or Prasangika?” And Manjushri said, “Oh.” He said, “Give me a break.” He said, “Your view,” He said, “Is not even within a hundred miles of the Svatantrika, Prasangika.” He said, “Your view is still the view of someone who thinks that when they can somehow suspend the holding of anything at all in their mind, that they have found the view.” In other words, when they get a moment of blankness, by suppressing their thoughts, or sort of, you know, mind kind of goes blank, then you’ve reached enlightenment. “You’re one of those people who thinks that. You’re nothing but a nihilist.” He said. Tsongkhapa was deeply crushed. Then he thought, “Well, gee. If we’re going to go back over all this territory.” And he said, “Let me ask all these questions all over again.” Then Manjushri said, “No, that’s enough questions. I’ve already answered all the questions. And you’ve heard my answers and will remember them. And it is just a matter that the seeds that I’ve planted. And these answers will ripen in you, and you will understand them fully. If you go completely into retreat. And you must now go in a long retreat. No more questions. No more answers. I’ll be there, but no more discussions. You have to meditate, purify for as long as it takes.” So, then there was a big complaint. And Umapa too, interceded. He said, “Oh, come on, Manjushri. I mean this, you know, you’re Manjushri. You should be able to teach more quickly than this.” He had also given lot of initiations. And when Manjushri gave these initiations, he would turn into the deity he was initiating. He would magically create this mandala. Well, I mean it was pretty far out, apparently. Quite something. Not just using pictures or thangkas or this and that. Manjushri would directly manifest all these things. So, they thought, you know. So, Umapa said, “You can do all this. So, how come you can’t, like, teach a little quickly. Because if Tsongkhapa doesn’t go back to teach in the Sangpu and the Kyomo lung and the Sakya and over here and over there, they’ll think he’s crazy and he’s antisocial and he’s a bad person and he’s like, doesn’t care about sentient beings and etcetera. And this really will not be beneficial to them.” So, Manjushri said, “You don’t tell me about beneficial and not beneficial. What is beneficial is retreat and you go on that retreat and otherwise forget it.” So, they had to go. And. Then Umapa had to go back East to see his relatives or something in Eastern Tibet. So, he left. Tsongkhapa went up with him as far as Lhasa. And then in Lhasa they parted. And Tsongkhapa had a wonderful vision on the roof of the Potala, where he saw what is known as the 1:16:40.1 Lam Tso Nam Sum, the Three Principles of the Path. Manjushri’s own sort of quintessential teaching like, the Lamp of the Path of Enlightenment of Atisha, that Rimpoche mentioned. Sort of based on that, actually. Just the same as that, really. But a different formulation of it, given by Manjushri directly to Tsongkhapa.

1:16:55.4 And then he helped Tsongkhapa pick eight colleagues; eight famous disciples. And with these eight colleagues, they went off to this wonderful place. 1:17:06.1 (Tibetan: U de kungyel) down in the. Down the river. Down the Kyichu and down the Tsangpo River and north of 1:17:12.8 Getang(?), a little bit into the West. Right near the Lhamo La-tso Lake actually. Near the magic mirror lake where the Lha goddesses. They had this wonderful retreat place. And he went into retreat there. And it is said. And I counted this up once. I don’t know if it’s possible. It could be, you know, pious exaggeration or else he was a tremendous athlete. It is said that he did three million five hundred thousand prostrations. That is to say, one million to each of the thirty-five Buddhas of repentance. There is a set of thirty-five Buddhas known as the Buddhas of repentance and confession. Which are purifying Buddhas. And it is said that Tsongkhapa did one million to each of those Buddhas. And while doing them he saw those Buddhas completely. They talked to him and everything. He saw all the different visions of all sorts of different deities. Of all kinds. He was all bloody from doing that. He offered several million mandalas. He recited the different Vajrasattvas and so forth. Then he went in. He had all kinds of visions and all sorts of things. And but, and he. This lasted from 1392 til around 1398. But he still was not satisfied. All this purification and all these visions. All 1:18:19.5 visions, like, he was still struggling around 1398. And then in 1398, one day, he had a vision, a dream. And in that dream, he dreamed that he was in the Tushita Heaven. Which is not a very high heaven. You know what I mean? It’s like, it’s not the top of the Trump tower. It’s like the fortieth floor. It’s sort of medium heaven. But it’s the heaven where. There’s an area in that. And it’s a worldly heaven in desire realm. But there’s an area; there’s a dharma center in that heaven, called 1:18:48.7 (iga chunzi) which is part of it. And so, it’s a sort of holy place within the heaven. Which is not particularly holy. You know, these pleasure gods live there. And it’s like California or something. Swimming pools, palace. They have a good time. But this heaven is where Maitreya lives, and it is a very sacred place. And he dreamed he was in this 1:19:05.2 (yi guntzen) in Maitreya’s presence. And in front of Maitreya there was Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Buddhapalita, Bhaviveka(?) great Madhyamika masters of ancient time. Atisha was there. And they were debating about Prasangika, Svatantrika, about these abstruse things; about what it means to be, to have a private object. What it means to use a private inference. This very subtle point. The difference private inference vs public syllogism. This very subtle points on which it turns, the Prasangika, Svatantrika, differentiation in the central ways. Meaning of shunyata.

1:19:38.9 And they were talking about that, and he was really interested in that. And really pleased to be there, in this dream. And then Buddhapalita got up from the dream and came over to Tsongkhapa. And he recognized he was Buddhapalita, because he was very tall and dark. Buddhapalita was almost blue colored; he was so dark skinned. He was from south India. And he took this book, golden lettered book. And touched Tsongkhapa on the head. And then Tsongkhapa felt, filled with blessings and extremely ecstatic. And smiling Buddhapalita. And he woke up. But he still wasn’t enlightened. Even such a great vision. And then he took out the early dawn time, just before dawn. He like grayish light. He took out his book of Buddhapalita and he was looking in it. He had been reading in the seventeenth chapter. He finished the seventeenth chapter some days earlier. And his study was. Even in his retreat, he was also studying, and it is said, he put his finger. His finger was tracing in the unclear light, you know because it was pre-dawn. He was tracing the words. The aggregates, you know, the body mind. These are the, what are called the five aggregates, in Buddhism. You know; form, feeling, sensation, etc. You know. The human being. The aggregates are not. Or rather the self is neither the same as the aggregates, nor different from the aggregates. This word. There are different. In other words, the self is neither the same as the body and mind, nor is it different from the body and mind. And he was just reading that in Buddhapalita’s text. And then he attained enlightenment at that time it is said. And he. What?

Rimpoche: 1:21:08.0 (Tibetan:..gr and rt)

Robert: Attained enlightenment. Do you want to debate that?

Rimpoche: Enlightenment comes down from the 1:21:16.0 (Tibetan: naba naba tong pa nyi)

Robert: No, no, no. No, no, no. But he had achieved already understanding of emptiness. There he attained complete enlightenment. Perfect enlightenment. Not just. You can’t just say tong la.

Rimpoche: 1:21:24.3 (Tibetan: ..)

Robert: Not tong la. No, I’m not saying he attained Buddhahood. Well, in some ways, he attained. What did you want to say? First bodhisattva stage. I don’t think so.

Rimpoche: 1:21:35.0 (Tibetan: …)

Robert: I don’t think

Rimpoche: (Tibetan:.pun ye .)

1:21:36.8 Robert: Yeah. And usually, they say directly realized emptiness. That’s true. But he furthermore. He said, he also. He was satisfied about all subtleties about the view. Therefore, I’m not sure. Buddhahood or not Buddhahood. I’m not sure, we can say, Rimpoche. You see, you have to realize that this, now. I have evidence. I have evidence here.

Rimpoche: Oh. You. (laughs)

Robert: In his interrogation, Manjushri. It is said that he interrogated, and he dialoged and he was taught by Manjushri all the time the keys of the ultimate subtleties of Ghuyasamaja and Prasangika Madhyamika. That is to say the philosophical view of Nagarjuna; the Prasangika Madhyamika and the subtle yoga essence. Essential things of the five paths of the Ghuyasamaja. Ok? Now, and so that he had these two completely interconnected. 1:22:28.4 Tibetan: Pelma sava(?)). He had them, like, interconnected. And. But then, when they later come to talking about his enlightenment. At that time. They only meant in the Madhyamika part. Ok? So, then later scholars say, “Well, it was just” Later scholars, like Rimpoche was saying. “Oh, he just realized emptiness. Don’t say enlightenment. Because he didn’t attain Buddhahood. “ But I won’t accept that, because he was combined realizing simultaneously Ghuyasamaja and Prasangika Madhyamika. And at that depth. And at that level, you can’t separate these things. In my opinion. Of course, one evidence of his not attaining Buddhahood is, he maintained his coarse body of Tsongkhapa. But according to Ghuyasamaja, it would be possible to maintain such a coarse body. In fact, to reenter such a coarse body after enlightenment experience. So, that’s also not a perfect proof. But anyway, let’s talk about it this far. I’ll come back to it actually in relation to his death. So, basically his death.

1:23:26.7 Now. So, then he attained that. And he said at that time, which I think is most interesting. He was. In 1398, he was therefore, born in 1357. He was forty-one years of age. And he was already by this. Twenty-five he was accepted great master in Tibet. But he said that everything he had thought about the nature of reality up to that time, was diametrically the reverse of what he now experienced it to be. This is a very important point. He said, it was upside down. And he was enlightened. He had samadhis before. He realized emptiness before. 1:24:01.0 (Tibetan: ….RT and GR) He realized emptiness before. But and yet, not to this depth. And now he said everything was opposite from what he had always thought. And from that time, he had no hesitation about stating that he understood the nature of the view. That he understood the nature of reality. And his wisdom had been in that sense, perfected. He speaks actually, quite, person type. “Now, I know what’s go, all about.” Type of thing. He speaks that way subsequently in his writing. Especially philosophical writing. In some more ethical wise, otherwise, he writes in the normal sort of Buddhist style. Which is to say, sort of “Well, I’m just one of many. And I follow the tradition. And I have a few things to say here.” He, sort of, very anonymous, in other words, self-deprecatory. Which is the tradition in Buddhism. But in philosophy in particular, he writes a little stronger. He says, “Now, I understand what it’s all about. And now I’m going to let you know. So, pay attention.” And he writes more like that. A little more confident, in a certain way. So, then after that. Now, after that, there are what are called the four great deeds of Tsongkhapa. And among these, his writings and teachings are not considered; are not mentioned as great deeds. Because, of course, writings and teaching are just a natural outflow of such an enlightenment. And they are not considered a special deed, so to speak. I think that’s why they’re not included. Because in the traditional category, known as the four great deeds, his actual writings, which are actually in a way, his greatest deeds. His speech and his writings are his greatest deeds. But they’re not mentioned, because they’re just; he just was a constant stream of teachings after that. And he wrote the most extraordinary book. I cannot emphasize how much; enough how extraordinary his books are. His, his writing, reasoning and his thinking is so benefiting. It’s so very difficult to actually deal with. They really are quite difficult to even read them, you know. And yet, they’re so lucid and illuminating and extraordinary, you know. One really begins to think that there is such a possibility, a such thing as an incarnation of Manjushri, when one really studies him, they’re just so incredibly acute. Just in the reading of them, it. I mean a scenario where therefore the reason I’m objecting to Rimpoche’s 1:26:10.3 (??) statement, which is the conventional statement, about just realizing emptiness, is that at this certain stage, you know, the intellectual and the experiential cannot be divided. So, in other words, the way that the Buddhist path works, to gain even, full intellectual understanding of reality requires a full experience of reality, finally. There’s no intellectual understanding that’s full, short of that full experience. So, the two on the ultimate level are completely interconnected. However, in the conventional way, you don’t. One doesn’t express it that way. Because you always keep an area separate for the esoteric practice and achievement. And you don’t describe experiences in the conventional level from the esoteric point of view. This is Tibetan tradition, which we will have to modify in modern times, perhaps. (laughter)

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