Archive Result

11

1Soundfile 198712071116GR&RTMN22_01

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche & Robert Thurman

Location ??

Topic Tibet Mystic Nation

Transcriber Vickii Cahill

Date December 20, 2021

The best nominators of former Nobel prize recipients, or nominated, any nominees. They are the ones they weighed most heavily. And distinguished people, of any sort, in any country, you can write a letter of support. But that’s sort of tabulated. But has a little less weight. So, the letter of support has been tabulated. We’ve got so many letters of support, he or she. There’s a letter. Nominations are tabulated. And then very distinguished and very frequent letters have received special 0:00:27.4 committee(?). And then (??), what else they do in Norway and Sweden. But, as I said, he’s been in the short list for two years in a row, this would be a very significant take, in relation to giving to the larger forum to get the Chinese to listen to him. If this were to happen. 0:00:46.7 (??) it would be done. Many of the congress persons have also written these letters. Audience: When do they vote?

Robert: Are working on this legislation.

Audience: When is the voting for this year?

Robert: Every year the letter of nomination. It cannot be. The committee. So, this ad hoc committee is just a committee to sort of let people know about and encourage people to nominate. No committee can nominate. Only individuals can nominate His Holiness. And mister Nobel, as we’ve said, 0:01:12.2 will not see religion, go on political science. Other Tibetans have gone comedic 0:01:17.4 (?). And they have to be received by January 30th of the year in which is to be considered.

Audience: ah ha. So, we’ve got.

Robert: Yeah. So, that is why this is mailed December seventh, because today’s auspicious day with the summit and everything. And every year. Last year I mailed things out in November and December. And the people. The people who started the 0:01:35.8 Latino(?) prizes from England. They, unfortunately. They, sort of. You get the January twentieth from them. And you have to quickly write or if you’re out of town, you’re done for that year. So, that’s why I try to mail it. I wrote the Nobel prize people. But I personally would write them, the letter of nomination every year on New Year’s day. January first. Now it’s on 0:01:53.3 doomsday/Tuesday(?). And it would get longer and longer. Single spaced, small type. I hope that will frighten them. But I doubt it. Ok. Thank you. Why don’t we take a short break? And then we’ll reconvene. See what the lamas are teaching. (break)

Rimpoche: No. Thank you. Well. Whatever.

Audience:…

Rimpoche: What happened?

Robert: Do you have a question or a comment?

Audience: no, no, no.

Robert: Come on. Little audience. Little. Little group participation here, if you have anything to say.

Rimpoche: Go ahead.

[indistinguishable]

Robert: What do you have to say, please?

Audience: ….military. ….. Now that we all know it.

Robert: Yes.

Audience: Now we assume the Chinese are earnest and know what they are doing and … .

0:03:04.1 (not sure who is speaking) Robert?: Yes. And that’s giving the Chinese more credit than they deserve.

Audience: Do you think?

Robert: Yes.

Audience: But if you have that much population to use as a.

0:03:14.6 Robert or John: Chinese will have to choose. If you’re paying for it, you’re doing it. Because they’re notorious in South Africa. They cannot run an oppressive, a police state and have tourists come in. They’ll have to choose. They’ve got no other way to pay for the whole military operation.

Audience: But given the descriptions we’ve heard

John: They haven’t figure that out yet or maybe they have

Audience: Can’t they by simply maintaining the military, allow the culture to more or less

John: Have it pay for it. Absolutely. But they can’t pay for the religion

Audience: Sooner or later, they won’t even need oppressive measures.

Robert: That’s true.

Audience: Right

Robert: The genocide by population transfer is known as it’s 0:03:50.3 (????) of genocide. It’s set down numbers as you know, and sort of, whoever, (?) genocide. World court and so forth. Genocide by population transfer is one of the methods, which for example, the Chinese have more or less used to consider people, it’s near to them to successfully in Manchuria. The Manchu nation is more or less disappeared now. There are supposedly two million Manchus, but in Manchuria. But there’s seventy million Chinese, and where are you going to population. They’re sort of like scattered throughout. So, it is depressing. And also, I’ve been speaking, Rimpoche should speak but. It is depressing. It is even more depressing when you actually go to Tibet, and you see this massive presence of the Chinese. And I felt in the Tibetans a certain kind of, in Tibet, a kind of panic, I would say. By the strange combination actually. On one hand the certain 0:04:45.4 kind of panic(?). On the other hand, a certain kind of intense individual independence. You know that demonstration. I mean, those monks to go down there and play into this. They know they are going to be killed. Or as John said, I have Tibetan story. The guy grabbed the gun and they discussed smashing the gun. But they know by now, you shoot the gun. But they know that that’s hopeless, you know. And connect that to the Dalai Lama’s lecture to the, you know, twenty, you know, twenty-five or seventy-five thousand number of those Tibetans who were in Bodhgaya, couple years ago. Or often are there in winter. That their battle for independence is through the bodhisattva path. You know, by conquering the enemy, in the 0:05:33.5 (?)Buddhist transcendent texts and so on. And there the outer enemy will go away. So, they can turn all that energy for liberation into this sort of thing. For a simple people, they’re talking. Not talking intellectual. Just seeing that. So, there’s a combination of it’s very hopeful but very depressing. Then there’s the combination of, you know. We’re the Tibetans. This is what is true. And truth is truth and that’s that.

Audience: But that’s not being replicated in the kids.

0:05:59.5 Robert: Well, but no. The kids were leading those demonstrations. This is the strange thing. See. But this is a point I want to make. It isn’t what John said. Excuse me. One. There is one statement he made, which I’d like to set 0:06:09.2 in set(?). What you said wrong is that. the Chinese have never succeeded in creating a communist party to speak of. Really decent communist party in Tibet. Now, it’s not like Cambodia. There were no real Tibetan heavy, you know, class struggles, killers. The Tibetans did do some monetary wrecking. They were 0:06:22.8 (… poor, …..did in exile…?). There were Tibetan members of the communist party. There are the 0:06:28.4 (???) but. It never really got, sort of, into it. And this is. The Chinese have been very puzzled by this. And even into our talking and all they’re conceding to something that makes it incomprehensible as the terms of their cause and like John says. Power of religion. Power of religion. Everyone says about Tibet, “Power of religion.” But it isn’t just “power of religion”. This is step one. This nitroglycerin we’re talking about is not just religion. You see, because, you know, the communist idea. You know. It goes to the positivist history with the western type of modernity idea. You know, that religion is based on just a belief structure. And that’s a superstitious thing. And you know, when you have a rational explanation of the world, then that’s what falls away. You look. Wow. I can see that, when I turn the faucet the water comes out. That’s because I created a drop of water, that the water comes out. You know, that’s the sort of simplistic idea that they have. You see. They go and explain how the faucet runs and they expect the people to no longer pray to the god of water. Which is what they think they are doing with their Buddhism. But the fact is that Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism in particular is not just a belief system. In fact, Buddhism is, in a way, a transcending of belief system. It’s fundamental thing on wisdom is; involves the whole study of the nature of what creates the whole of belief system. And/or be held by a belief system. And although many simple Tibetans have a certain kind of faith, and they express things in certain pious way, the basic; underlying the culture, the tremendous emphasis on rationality. And the rationality of this way of living. And that we’re going to die, so it’s rational to prepare for death. And it’s rational to be so unselfish. And it’s rational to attain enlightenment. And so forth. Not just for the learned Geshe. So, the reason they can’t chisel this out of these people’s brain is that it doesn’t make sense to the people. They talk about liberation. The people see the Marxists slaving in labor camps and they say, “Who’s getting liberated in there?” You know. They talk about, you know, freedom from superstition but the Tibetan thing at core is not superstition. It’s actually a more rational way of living. Living in a sensible manner. And you can’t knock that out of somebody. And when somebody has that, as they say in Tibetan epistemology, if somebody has a strong inference. You know, where they realize by inference something strongly, even if they don’t have personal experience. You know, they’re not how they seem. That’s more powerful than just assumptions or ideology or brain washing, you see. So, the Tibetan people are not going to concede at the. What, you know, I was talking last night. John and I were actually talking last night at another 0:08:53.2conference(?). But I was seeing was. What the demonstration in Lhasa means, like the demonstrations through the delegations that he mentioned. Which was the biggest outpouring and frightened the Chinese the most. It really frightened them. That one. You know, they just couldn’t control these hundreds of thousands of people. All over Tibet.

0:09:09.1 Is. But the Tibetans are free in Tibet. You know. In a certain sense, they are actually now free. They can 0:09:16.4 outward religion(?) the Chinese people they all(???) free. Of course, they can kill all of them. That they can physically do. Kill every single Tibetan. And that’s a kind of level they’re showing that they’re going to do. So, the one ray of hope I feel is, what do the Chinese expect the world to do if they kill all the Tibetans? You know. Do they expect the people in Hong Kong to cooperate with them and do business with them? Do they expect the Taiwanese to do business with them? Do they expect the Japanese to do business with them? Do they expect us to be intimidated to do business with them? In fact, if they just mass murdered them all in a way where it cannot be invisible. All of the Tibetans. And if they don’t mass murder them, then Tibetans insist that they; it’s their country, they’re independent. And sort of morally and mentally they are. Somehow, it’s going to be an example of mind over matter, I think. Which is what keeps me from being depressed. And I did. When I left Tibet. After being in Tibet, the first 0:10:11.8 impression(?) I’ve seen from them is Chinese Tibetans. I would have felt very cheered up. That sort of, the Tibetans ordered me to be very cheered up. So, the Tibetans said, “We’re going to get 0:10:23.3our needs(?) to volunteer.” You do everything you can.” They would take the time to, not too far a time. I would say, “shhhh. The guy in the next room. There is like six Chinese in here. You’re going to get in trouble. I don’t want to get you in trouble.” “I don’t care.” You know. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They talked to me. They sort of personally feeling free, and another thing I, we heard. Friend of Rimpoche’s, who came back after all of this. 0:10:47.5 (Pema Glenn??). They were jailing Tibetans like Chris(?). They were running around like 0:10:50.7 (?). Were sneaking down doors in Lhasa and so forth at two o’clock in the morning and taking people away without explanation or notes. Notes to the relatives which written in long 0:10:58.2 (???) script. (?). The more they were free, the more proud of themselves, the Tibetans were. “We stood up to the Chinese.” Am I right, Rimpoche? We, you know 0:11:07.4 (Tibetan: sem chug) this word sem chug which means what? (???), you know, enthusiasm, which rioting(?) 0:11:14.7 (????) What do you think, Rimpoche? Are you depressed or not depressed?

Rimpoche: I don’t know

Robert: You don’t know whether you’re depressed or not depressed? He couldn’t be too badly depressed.

Rimpoche: You want me to say something?

Robert: Trying to. Look, I asked you what you thought.

Rimpoche: Ah ha.

Robert: On this subject. You know, the preliminary 0:11:50.3(??) On this subject he said that this is very depressing to see. John’s description of the situation.

Rimpoche: Yeah. It definitely very depressing. No doubt.

0:12:05.7 I mean the whole Tibetan situation if you look from the beginning, it was something very depressing. Always. I mean, look back. Look from very long, all the way back. Somehow, it’s always depressing. And as you all know, well know, I try not to involve in political talks or politics at all. So. I don’t know have much to say. It is no doubt depressing. Definitely. The Tibet situation today, whatever is happening is more than politics.

Robert: More than politics.

Rimpoche: Definitely. Because there’s human lives involved. People are getting killed. I think it’s more. Definitely more than politics. Sure.

Audience: Rimpoche, I have a question about, because perhaps Tibet has recommended that the 0:13:11.6 fight/right(?) form of Buddhism. What are the other Buddhists around the world? How are they reacting? Is there any such thing as, fellow Buddhists? Or is it everyone divide up their own? Theravadin Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Zen, etcetera, etcetera? Is there any kindred feeling of Buddhists suffering in Tibet about being oppressed? Is there a Buddhist movement?

Rimpoche: Do you have that?

Robert: Yes. You know, in charge. Not very much in the past. Just now in the United States, this Buddhist peace movement. Buddhist peace fellowship, it’s called. It’s just beginning. Sort of, Buddhist consciousness in America particularly, it’s beginning to kind of arouse itself. Not particularly over Tibet. But over injustice, you know, sort of levelling within American Buddhism. Which has been mostly focused on meditation, as you know, for twenty-five yearn s. It’s beginning to become aware of certain kind of social action. And initially it was the need for it, that is. Initially it was perhaps stimulated by feeling a little left out. Or as people grew more mature, they kind of got tired of sitting, or they thought they’d do something else than just this sitting. They began to see while Christians are doing a lot of things, in other religions people are active and what are we doing? And so that kind of thing. But then I think people are beginning to discover 0:14:29.1 written(?) sources within Buddhism. And much historical examples. And beginning to learn more about Buddhist culture. And realizing that Buddhism has been deeply involved in the world. And this sort of dichotomy between religion and politics does not necessarily apply to the Buddhist civilization actually. Even though, even monastic communities are very heavily involved in politics. And Tibet is the ultimate example of that. Where the monastic system became the government in the unique case. It’s the only case is in Tibet where the; you have monasteries acting to ply the government.

0:14:57.5 So, this is just beginning to happen. And in a way, you could say that, Tibet is only one out of many. And Tibetans have always seen this. But other Buddhists didn’t notice it. I think part of the reason is, that the Theravadin Buddhists and the east Asian Mahayana Buddhists did not necessarily, were not too sure about Tibetan Buddhism, until 0:15:17.6 recently(?). And still, I think to the more traditional ones are not. That is to say, tantra. They don’t know what is this tantra. And they hear this thing about Lamaism. And then these British missionaries wrote these horrible works about devil worship and all sort of thing. And they’re not really sure what is all this tantra. And the way the history of India is taught, the era of the tantra. That third stage that I talked about in our early classes. It’s talked about as decadence and degeneracy. You see. So, people really. Oddly it’s really true. I noticed in Japan. I don’t mean just official 0:15:45.5 dependent(?), Rimpoche. But I notice in Japan, as well as amongst Theravadin Buddhists, that the older faction people. They wonder if Tibetan Buddhism is Buddhism at all. And they will bluntly tell you, “Why did you like Tibetan Buddhism with that weird tantra. I mean.” What they said kind of funky. You know they sort of said. 0:16:01.5 (?) “but excuse me.” So, but now there’s more information. Knowledge is coming out. And His Holiness the Dalai Lama has published a lot. And other people have written. And they have begun to realize that Tibetan Buddhism may in fact have great treasures in relation to Buddhism and there may be something there. So, this is all slowly getting better. In addition to a general recognition of what you would call, I think, rightly The Buddhist holocaust that has actually taken place in this century. In 1945, Buddhism was perhaps a majority world religion. And second to it, Islam and Christianity. And now Buddhism is tiny thing. It’s hardly fit on the ground. There’s almost no Buddhist country left at all. Thailand and Burma and Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka’s already half communism. Thailand and Burma sort of militarist. And this and that. And Indochina, Nepal. China 0:16:49.1 (?). I mean, it’s been an extraordinary unravelling of quote unquote Buddhist societies in the last fifty years. Extraordinary.

0:17:00.3 I want to say about the depressing though. I won’t say that’s nothing. It is depressing truth. Second, John did show. John often is an expert at being depressing, actually. And it’s great. He’s a journalist who shows, like it’s like a, kind of, Solzhenitsyn like flavor about him. It is really valuable and very informed but this time I was glad that he shows the refugee community for example. And shows what a fantastically positive thing it is. Because, that I think is the crucial thing. For example, we all get appalled as you know, George Schultz makes analogy. Everybody’s like, “What do we do about terrorism?” Terrorism. The heads of state and the diplomats get together and they talk about terrorism. Terrible business, you know. The politicians and other groups in other places. You know, Gaddafi and 0:17:41.1 so on(?); we’re all worried about terrorists in the night, you see. Now, here’s a group of people who are very clever. They can make a car. They are; they’ve learned modern skills in India. They can make bombs. They can do all sorts of things. Easily. Lots of them.

0:17:53.4 And they don’t do it. And they haven’t done this. And they; their whole thing. They had to fight for independence. That is spiritual Jungian type of fight. This is a unique example. It may fail. Of course, it could continue to fail. But it’s a unique example of a refugee movement. An independence movement. And it’s operating on ambient kind of principles. In this age, there was a bit of a gorilla war. And as I’ve said, they’ve said so. I think some people will pick up some stones. And anyway, His Holiness commented on Tom Brokaw. He said, he disapproved of the stones. I don’t know if you know. He said, “I don’t like it when you do violence. Things will get destroyed. I think you have a right to have civil disobedience and I admire that.” He said. He used that phrase too, which I was pleased to hear, you know. 0:18:32.7 Descendance (???) of Thoreau, and Tolstoy, Gandhi traditions. Martin Luther King tradition. This is something very, not only it’s , I mean, it’s not in other words. If you look at in that light. The Tibetan possibility is a tremendous ray of hope, in a world that. Why, we don’t have to look at Tibet to getting depressed. I mean, look at these guys in Washington. They’re like, a few minor missiles are being cancelled and they’re having a big party over it. Each of them trying to bolster themselves politically, basically. Trying to get Bush a little bit of publicity and so on. Really that’s all it’s about. They’re not cancelling anything like the real stuff that they are holding. That’s what is more depressing. And they’re conviction that no non-violent, no truth, plan meets anything. Just pure tonnage of explosives. You know. So, in a way, that’s very, in effect, that even one nation on the face of the earth is trying to fight for peace, peacefully. It’s amazing. And hopeful to me. And it actually makes the struggle fall to be out Tibet. I think. See. This is why the Chinese can’t understand the topography in Tibet at all. No one can 0:19:35.5 suspect(?) and what these congressmen. You know, come from now. It’s a backward country, who pronounce Tibet, Tie bet. And they say, “Now, this Tie Bet. Tie bet. Tie bet.” They’ve never seen Tie bet. They don’t know what it is happened. But they are so really moved by it. Why? Because it is this unique people that have tried, trying this unique effort in the face of an insuperable object.

0:20:02.2 If you just count up the numbers of Chinese, which is what everybody has done from the beginning, back to the time of Churchill. I read a memo written by Winston Churchill, around the time of nineteen. I think it was 1911, before the First World War. I think it was Winston. Yeah, it was Winston. He was a young guy working some place at that time. And in this memo, he’s saying to somebody who knows about the Tibetan scene; writing from India. Wants them to really back the Tibetans against the Manchus. Or the Tibetan nationalists. And he is refusing to do it. He’s saying, I know perfectly well what you say is true. I know perfectly well. But you don’t know who is coming to come into power in that big country, so let’s not take a stand, he said. And he said, not stick our neck out and say, “Yes, we know Tibet is a separate country. I know it is. What you say is true.” He’s saying to his emissary. Charles Bell(?) 0:20:55.3 or whoever it was. “But let’s not do that, you know. We can’t afford to just run around, parading around more troops.” He answered some cynical remark like that. I read it in the library of the Indian library. Office of the Indian Library, in London, one time. This reference. So, that kind of hopelessness had been inflicted in Tibetan things from the beginning of the modern era. The time of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama. No one would really like to look at it because the fear of China. I’m sorry. But anyway, that 0:21:25.9 (????) we’re at the discussion.

Rimpoche: That’s right.

Robert: Ok. Now. I’m sorry. You have to talk.

Rimpoche: Of course.

Robert: Yes

Audience: I was wondering. Is there? Despite official censorship, is there any kind of like underground literature where people can have sacred texts? You know. Even in secrecy? Or has that just been totally abolished?

Robert: There’s a lot of kinds of dharma texts available in Tibet, now.

Audience: Wow.

Robert: They’ve been allowing the publishing of it again. It has to be there.

Audience: Yeah. But it’s not allowed to be taught in public?

Robert: Not really. You know. There is even some small amount of teaching going on in some monasteries. Of course, after the, you know. Those monks who marched are ones who are beginning to study in some of the big monasteries in Lhasa. But it’s very restricted. So many great tiny numbers, in a place where there were five thousand, there’s like sixty allowed.

Audience: Yeah.

Robert: And so on. And very few places. And now they’re probably not going to be there, because they feel that after a little learning. Learning a little more about the dharma, they became more unmanageable. So that will betray those classes will not be held. Probably. They are certain ones being held now.

Audience 2: I’d just say that anybody interested in US Tibet committee. It’s a committee, that’s pro human rights for the Tibetan benefit. I’d love to speak to anybody after the class.

Robert: Great.

Audience 2: We’re doing all sorts of things.

Robert: This is 0:22:45.0 Nia Gorchum (?), who is from the US Tibetan Committee. She will share lots of information on all these topics. And now before the evening gets too late. Rimpoche? Fifth Dalai Lama. Let’s go. Let’s hear it.

0:22:58.5 Rimpoche: Ok. Before I go to Fifth Dalai Lama, I’d like to. Can I have a little bit?

Robert: Oh, please, please, please, please Sure.

Rimpoche: I hear. I mean, she’s looking at me. And seeing what you have to say about it.

Robert: Yes.

Rimpoche: But I’d like to say what I feel. And one of your, your question, if I understand. You say, “What about the kinship feeling of everybody involved?” Or whatever. My feeling. I don’t know whether it’s agreed by everybody or not. Buddhism is a totally different religion compared with any other religion where you go to. You may look at Tibetan Buddhism as a totally disorganized, totally disorganized, thing. Or you may look at total free religion. Total freedom-ship in Buddhism. There is no such thing called a leader of Buddhism. Not whatsoever. There is no such thing called hierarchy in Buddhism. There is no such thing called order in Buddhism. It is total free. It is not controlled by any organization and by any one kind of; you know, like Theravadin or Mahayana-in, or Vajrayana-in, or Tibetan or southern or northern or none. It is not. And I hope it will not be, too. And so that is the really total free. So, therefore, it’s a really free religion. Here you are doing, “Is this Buddhist?” In Thailand they are doing. And when you look at Southeast Asia, it is Buddhist. You look in Tibet, Mongolia or northern India. It is Buddhist. Look in Sri Lanka. It is Buddhist. Look in Cambodia, or Kampuchea, or whatever it is. And 0:25:20.0 (Laos??) whatever it is. All this. And you look, it’s Buddhist. Vietnam; Buddhist. But it is not controlled by any sort of, you know. No. So, I think it’s a great quality. I look as great quality. It is no hierarchy, no order, no leader. It is total free spiritual path. So, it is great quality of Buddhism. Buddhism. Really.

0:25:48.5 But on the other hand, it also has disadvantage. Disadvantage is such a thing. You know, when you have this sort of problem, if you are organized, somebody will move through the organization machine will get it up. When you don’t have such organization, there is no 0:26:06.5 machine get it up(?). It took an individual move. Let individual do that. Suffering is such a thing in Buddhism. Wherever you look, you’ll see pain, misery and problem. And what is happening in Tibet; what is special? What is happening in Vietnam? That’s my view. I’m sorry. I’m not a sort of a very, different way of looking. So, very critical way of looking at it. What happened in Vietnam a couple of years ago? What is happening in Sri Lanka today? And every part of the world. What’s happening in Russia? What’s happening in China? South Africa. Nicaragua. Ethiopia. Everywhere you look, there is suffering. So, what is happening in the eyes of Buddhism? 0:27:01.8 after we gone(?) How others here(?). In the eyes of general Buddhism. The suffering is nature of the pain. As long as you are human! Samsara or whatever. The circle. It is there. It is the circle of life. It is by nature. It’s not here, it’s there. It’s not this way, it’s that way. If it’s not this way, it’s that way. Some way or another, it appears in the world. So, nothing to be surprised in the eyes of Buddha. And also, no organize, no leader and no one leader faith. Hundreds of leaders 0:27:40.2 transform(?) one leader. There is no hierarchy. There’s no machine. Machine to work. I don’t mean, machines to go, you know. Machine to work. That’s why, I think that should really up to you. And after that, 0:27:55.3 up to air.(??) I don’t know if you will agree with this or what. Other(?) that. really true path in Buddhism.

Robert: It’s interesting

Rimpoche: Do you have something else to say?

0:28:07.1 Audience: Yeah. I see what you mean. But I also think it’s important to say, you know, that you see the misery and gosh darn it. There’s an awful lot of misery out there. Let’s try to do something about it.

Rimpoche: Yeah. That’s true. They’re trying to do whatever they can.

Audience: Yeah. Right. I mean you just don’t sit back and say.

Rimpoche: And that’s true. That’s true. That’s true. As a matter of fact. And the suffering has become too much on the Buddhist teaching of an idea and they proceed. And it almost their pain. And it’s almost impossible to handle individually. So, better have to end it. Samsara at end And this is how you go deeper inside in actual practice. So, 0:29:01.6 wiki (?) is true. And I do also hope you will act more in sort of modern times and modern way of moving. And as people who are interested in Buddhism. I think very much important to act. Of all. Much of the mental meditational and sitting, but also to support whatever they meditate and mentally try to develop. And also, have to support with action. Bodhi technic action. But what we react in Buddhism. I think. I have to tell the truth. We don’t have anything Mother Theresa in Buddhism. Nothing.

Robert: No, no. That’s 0:29:49.1 (?) not true. They do. Well, there are famous monks in Vietnam and nuns that took so many burnt children and there are many, many. And there were some people in Tibet. People like Songtsen Gampo, as I said before.

Rimpoche: Well. That was going back in history.

Robert: No. But there were. And they are some today too. But, but. There’s no one who has quite done it in the modern Tibetan refugee communities, to that degree. But I think there are many who have done small ways.

Rimpoche: But. Yeah.

Robert: I know His Holiness likes the school. The old Tibetan lamas say. None of you are Mother Theresa. It’s one of his famous sayings. He

Rimpoche: Well, I don’t mean. I just. I was talking His Holiness’s words.

Robert: Oh. Why not?

Rimpoche: I didn’t hear that.

Robert: I heard you .

Rimpoche: I’m glad you sort of said it.

Robert: Right.

Rimpoche: And my opinion Buddhist like 0:30:36.9 my hat that way.

Robert: Yeah

Rimpoche: If you think it is not. I’m happy.

Robert: But for example, if say there are monks in Southeast Asia, for example and there are more monks even there are worker monk type thing in Sri Lanka today. And there were some very kindred monks in China and Korea. So, it’s not true that there are not this kind of activists. That’s what I’m saying. Buddhists are now discovering by scholars looking into these things. Numerous examples of very activist Buddhist.

0:31:02.1 Rimpoche: Oh yes, there are.

Robert: Granted

Rimpoche: No, I think

Robert: Many, many. In Vietnam there was one famous place that the son of one famous journalist or novelist. I don’t know if you. Some of you may know the story. Wandered into this place where there was this one monk right in the middle of one the Mekong jungle. One of the heaviest battle zones. Where this guy had a sanctuary. This one old saint. And he had all these children and people and victims. And he had like an incredible ashram there. And there was like a magic shield over it. Nobody machine gunned it. Nobody bombed it. Neither Vietcong or Americans. And it just stayed like that for years. And this one guy wandered in there, a wounded soldier. And he found refuge there. I forget the name of the guy. He wrote about it. Very beautiful. One journalist, a writer’s son.

Rimpoche: That was the son. Besides that there’s the Japanese.

Robert: Yeah. That’s right. Fujii Guruji was like that.

Rimpoche: Fujii Guruji

Robert: He was a bit like that

Rimpoche: Sixty. Like ninety some odd years ago, over a hundred years. Between the Japan, went between the wars and all that. There are that sort of thing. But what I mean is. They still need much more movement.

Robert: Yes. I agree

Rimpoche: And that was lacking. And as a fellow Buddhist I think we should be very encouraged. Not only mental development but also physical development. We need that, for sure. Thank you

Robert: Yes. Question?

Audience: This is an observation on the Tibetan misfortune. Very positive thing has happened is that so many refugees coming out of Tibet. And these great teachers have come out. They are all over the world now. And we in the United States have obtained Buddhist, these so rare opportunities. Tibet has so many 0:32:38.8 (?) nowadays if it weren’t for the teachers refugees.

Robert: Well, that’s true.

Rimpoche: I totally agree with you.

Audience: Thank you.

Rimpoche: They’ve taken over of the life; Chinese in 1959 in a way helped Buddhism to develop outside. Otherwise keeping Buddhism isolated. Totally for sure.

0:32:58.9 So, now I don’t know whether you’d like to listen Fifth Dalai Lama or not. It almost nine forty-seven. So, I don’t know. I don’t even know what to say. But as I always tell you, I’m a student of history, particularly Tibetan and Buddhism. And so, I don’t comment on the current situation, but I comment on the six years in which passed. Even a minute passed. I observe and everything. So, I do not know whether I can really talk about Fifth Dalai Lama. But before that. One, One make due all respect to my dear Professor.

Robert: Oh good.

Rimpoche: One of his statements, earlier. Oh wait. I know. What I’m going to say, if other people may not agree. I do not know whether it contributes or whatever. After current Tibetan period. However. History is History. The truth is truth. Nobody can touch it. Nobody can rewrite or influence.

Robert: Do it all the time.

Rimpoche: Yeah. It’s there. But you have fun right? So, talking about it, before Fifth Dalai Lama comes to power, in 1642. Right?

Robert: Right.

Rimpoche: I don’t care whether you think it’s 1640 or 1642. Doesn’t matter. Three years is not 0:34:30.2 (?). But what does make difference is the second thing that, sort of religious movement against secular.

Robert: Secular. Aristocrat.

Rimpoche: Aristocrat.

Robert: (laughs claps) got you!

Rimpoche: Wasn’t that. Not because I grew up to the aristocratic family. Born in an aristocratic family. I also had; and then incarnate lama for 0:35:01.9 I (?????). I am.

Robert: See, a Tibetan.

0:35:05.7 Rimpoche: (laughs) the thing what really happened at that time was the king of Tsang, 0:35:15.2 (Yeshe tan pa??), under the control. It’s not really a secular ruler at all. And it is the, I mean, the first Tibetan going. I mean, the great earlier religious kings or whatever. We called them the religious kings. But earlier kingdom, over Tibet. Tibet was so great, so popular and so south. This and that. This and that. Then finally broke down, and it was peace. And then Tibetans united once again during the Sakya lamas, the other day. The Sakya and Sakyapas before. Under the control of 0:36:02.7 Sakya (?). And that what you call sometime. I don’t remember the exact year. Then it was reported to the Sakya by the Kagyupa side. Made by Situ Changchub Gyaltsen, who was the minister of the king at that Phagmodru

Robert: Phagmodrupa

Rimpoche: Phagmodrupa. Yeah. Phagmodrupa minister. And it was aborted against Sakya control. And the Kagyupa of our king. I mean, it was a long battle between the Drigung, the Sakyas and all this sort of thing then. And now, this as a student and critical mind of everything. I’m sorry. There it is. What I’m really see here is Tsongkhapa, which of course Tsongkhapa, rather than Zongkhapa. Tsongkhapa came and developed this really, tremendous Buddhist, 0:37:10.6 (???) refined or organized or whatever you call it. Doesn’t matter. And he, he did not start the Gelugpa, the yellow hat sect at all. He was a very, very famous popular teacher. Who does not even enjoy this much 0:37:33.4 branch(?). He doesn’t have a single branch(?). He doesn’t have a cushion (??). I mean he doesn’t have throne(?). He doesn’t have titles, he doesn’t have name. I mean he has a name. But he doesn’t have seat or chair or cushion, nothing. Just an ordinary. What’d I say? Ordinary, I think, person who doesn’t enjoy the 0:37:54.0 wealth(?) of others. Just a simple little 0:37:56.6 /chair/charity(?). A simple little beggar if you want to. Who came from the Amdo Land, to central Tibet, by begging for the food.

0:38:06.8 Because he has a simple little empty bowl, begging of a 0:38:11.1 can(?), and then all of a suddenly he become such a famous teacher where everybody had to bow down to him. Everybody. You name it. Including the emperor of China. So, he bowed down to him. And that’s what’s meant. Who picked it up. That’s why, just touch it. Emperor of China invited him. He wouldn’t go. What for he go? He’s not seeking about name. He’s not seeking a title. He’s not seeking a cushion. He’s not seeking establishing a lama institute. And that’s one reason why Tsongkhapa isn’t; doesn’t have a reincarnation, because he’s against the institute of 0:38:53.7 lam dak(?). You may not know what lama institution is. It’s a very funny institution. We incarnate lamas enjoy old Tibetan culture. This is the 0:39:03.8 (???) monastery. And very wealthy institution. Because a number of generations, (oh ??????many). Didn’t worry about it.. Ok. Thank you. So, number of Yang property and wealth. We’re all wealthy. My thing. I’m sorry I 0:39:32.3 (kept in India a truck???). I owned two jeeps and a truck before 1969, 59. A truck. And half of jeep available in Lhasa. You can count five or six, seven. And I owned two. And a truck too.

Robert: Yeah. but that was because you’re a lama. Not because you are an aristocrat.

Rimpoche: No, no. Yeah. Because of the lama

Robert: Aristocrats were

Rimpoche: no, no.

Robert: Truly flamboyant

Rimpoche: No, no. I’m talking through to 0:40:02.0 lama/barbara(??). So, Tsongkhapa is very interesting, but he’s establish in teaching of 0:40:08.3 Lam Ra. So, that’s why he says, (?) reincarnation.

Robert: Right

0:40:11.2 Rimpoche: That is the bigger reason. And lot of people think the Gelugpa, the Yellow Hat people, had become popular in Tibet. The Chinese issue set the stage. Not Yellow Hat. The Chinese. Said ninety-two percent of the Tibetan population is follower of the Yellow Hat sect. That Chinese issue, right? So, by then, a lot of people think it is because Dalai Lama is the ruler and it becomes government power. It’s not true. Because Tsongkhapa suddenly had tremendous amount of followers. And these followers came all over from Tibet. Everywhere. And so the news Tsongkhapa went out. And each one divisions said this in their own village. They started building up monasteries. Like mushroom grow. Over night.

Robert: (laughs)

Rimpoche: Yeah. Really. This is how that Gelugpa set up. And that’s what really is true. You can deny, but true.

Robert: No. I don’t deny that

Rimpoche: It is true that. That’s how it happened. So, 0:41:15.7 the (Geshes Dampa?). Now my point is. The ruler at that time was so scared of this. What is the all of a sudden, over the night here monastery. Over the night, there monastery. And in this side of the 0:41:28.2 border(?) is me, So, I’d be in trouble.

Robert: Yes

Rimpoche: So, his side, crashing the order of it. the followers of Tsongkhapa. Totally crashing it. Crashing into two, they say. I don’t want to say that. But you make me to say it. So, totally crashing in the sect. They wear a yellow hat, right? Because yellow hat is not Gelugpa, at all. It is an old Indian pundit system. We just picked it about by earlier Kadampa. So, what Tsongkhapa request that you should have a sect and you should have won 0:42:07.9 an argument(?) in the monastery. Or your yellow hat is different. And if it’s on my head, it is the Kadampas. The old Kadampas will wear same thing. So, anyway scared to follow that. So, Geshe Drakpa issued an order that no one could wear a yellow hat. Yellow hat is totally banned in Tibet. Totally crashed. The monastery in Drepung where ten thousand, over ten thousand monks, Sera, over five thousand or seven thousand later. And Ganden, three thousand company and they should all this, they have to wear the red outside and yellow inside. So, that explains in a way. That is the reason why popular 0:42:49.4 were bored(???) against Geshe Drakpa, in the sixteenth century king. That’s the simple reason. It is not a secular. Not a monastery by any particular. Or neither it is against aristocracy at all.

Robert: Ahhh.

Rimpoche: It is the. It is the. And not only that. What it is, if you look into that history, that leads us head of Karmapa into a 0:43:16.8 Gompa (?) area because of the revolt, the Karmapa has to sit in the Gompa area and it brought a war, civil war into Tibet. Little later than that and brought little support from the Karmapa side and this is all this incarnate. So, really, I don’t agree. Because sort of, you know, really a religious institution came into the area. 0:43:41.5 (??) Aristocracy involved. That’s the really (?). You had to catch him.

Robert: You know, I don’t agree. I disagree. I want to go after it. I think you don’t. My point is, you know, you want to predate me if I make my point again I a different way basically. Can I?

Rimpoche: Go ahead.

Robert: Can I respond? 0:43:58.3 (???) just sitting right. And that is this way. Now, if you go back to the time of the Sakyapa, right. Of course don’t

Rimpoche: ????

Robert: This is important

Rimpoche: This is inaccurate.

Robert: Yeah. But I won’t lead with that. No, no, no.

Rimpoche: This is inaccurate

0:44:15.1 Robert: If you go back to time of Dharmaraja,

Rimpoche: Forget about it.

Robert: No, I won’t forget about it. What I mean by secular is, which is the pattern in all Buddhist countries. That you have a king. A political authority. And then you have a monastic institution. In all Buddhist countries, this is the history. And there’s, there’s sometimes, a kind of struggle between these two that goes on. Now, often the king supports monastic institutions. Then monastic institutions will (recording stops) And then after it goes. It goes like this. This is short history. And like Japan for example, the monastic institution was never very strong. Always the political are in control of the monastery. Completely. That doesn’t mean some of the rulers weren’t spiritual. Didn’t consider themselves sacred thing. I’m talking particularly the thing between the monastic institution, the realm of the sacred. The realm of what you can 0:45:12.1 teak your mala on that and the political authority running the country and producing economy and having military and army in particular. Now, in Tibet, in the time of the royal kings, the power in the country was the king and then the different barons, you know. The local lords. They were the power. And the king brought in bunch of monks and the local lords actually resented that. That was one of the reasons they fought against the king

Rimpoche: That’s right. That’s right.

Robert: Then when you get to the time around Sakyapa this and that, each different regent began to patronize a particular monastery and you had an interesting phenomenon where a noble family like the local lord of a certain region would build a monastery. Then the lord of that region would become the hierarch of that monastery. And therefore, the power of the local lord would be fused with the monastery. Sakya Khon family is an example. The rulers of the Sakyapa orders, the heirarchs of the Sakyapa order are related to a blood lineage of an aristocratic family known as Khon. You heard him talking how they came from heaven. They were back in the. Ordained by the. They were ordained by Shantarakshita at the time of Padmasambhava and so forth and they told you the story about it. Right? And so, what’s happened. You have the fusion. Because in the second period, monastic power is really very important. On the local level, you have the fusion of royal aristocratic powers in a local lord with monastic power. In the situation of the Sakyapas.

Rimpoche: That, I agree.

Robert: Then, this is backed by Mongols and rulers of the world. And you get to something, then. Now wait. Then, that. Then, that happens on the local level in the Phagmodru area it’s the aristocratic family. In the 0:46:47.7 (Drigung?) Area, it’s an aristocratic family. Here and there it is happening all around Tibet. Different local lords, throughout the way it rules control.

0:46:54.4 Now they said, “We have to get in there. We have to have a member of each generation who runs the monastery. And through the monastery they’ll run the country.” But still, that’s the aristocratic sort of blindly piggybacking off the monastic power. And it’s beginning to show that monasteries are sensible institution to run a country. The country is already becoming to religious 0:47:12.1 point again(?). Now here, I have to (??) with the innovative, actually. The Karmapas. Because what has happened in a certain kind of time. Let me explain this. Now, it seems to be, the Karmapas are the first institution of official incarnation that is not connected to any ancestral bloodline. You follow me? That is to say, this lama institution they talk about, which is a Tibetan invention, is how you can take it with you. You know that you can’t take it with you? Well, the incarnate monks can take it with them. It’s so much like a bank account that they keep for their charge. They invent an institution where somebody sits around and guards and keeps the truck, while they are reborn to a certain mother, rediscovered, brought back and then they’re driving their kids to their trucks again. So, it’s a very sneaky way of getting back through the 0:48:02.9 key(?) for the truck. Through rebirth. Even beyond death. However, and I used to be there for 0:48:10.3 (???). I used to be very critical of reincarnation. Yeah, it’s old. Rimpoche was having another joke about reincarnation. And I used to be critical. I used to think 0:48:16.6 (?) was a corrupt thing and it was real, but there were certain Mongolians who feel that way. But actually, dug into it more deeply into actually brilliant things. I don’t think. It’s very brilliant. Why? Who inherits wealth in a country otherwise? Aristocratic families. Aristocratic families sometimes have good people. Sometimes they have bad people. And Mencius once said to a local king. He said, “You care more for your own suit of clothes, then you do for your whole country. Why? Well, you have a suit of clothes to sew, you’ve got to find the most capable tailor. So, when you have a country rules, you don’t go find the most capable ruler. You take your own sniveling little brat. Because he’s your descendent. Whether he’s a capable ruler or not. And therefore, you don’t care about your country. You just care about your brats.” And he lived to tell the tale. This Mencius. He was very brave. So, in other words, detach power and property from blood lines. The incarnation institution is extremely brilliant strategy because. Of course, it can be corrupted. The people who recognize the reincarnation is going to find in an aristocratic family on purpose, falsely, no doubt.

Rimpoche: Even

Robert: Why? Because it’s such a psychic country and there are so many powerful signs and this and that. A lot of things. It’s not very often that I think that that happens Because there’s too much. Too many psychics, who would just say, “Fool. Get out of here. Go away.” The guy’s 0:49:38.7 will follow up(?). For about fifty years, there’s a follow up(?). I mean they; they just don’t do it that much. They don’t.

0:49:43.8 And so, in fact what you do is. You have a way of instituting without democracy and elections and things. Instituting log cabin’s white house. The Dalai Lama. This Fifth (?) Dalai Lama. Everybody’s going around, “Dalai Lama’s Buddha.” The guy exposed it was a mule driver. That’s the lowest. That’s pretty low. He was a wealthy mule driver, but he was a mule driver. He was kind of unschooled. In fact, there was some scandal when they first moved to Lhasa. Because they had like, they’re building 0:50:09.2 carters, you know. Well, they did. The gas station guy. It was like they’d been doing horse trading and stuff. It seems for example, you know. But the way in which it could take, turning over the society, so it is just stagnating. With certain kind of aristocratic obfuscation. Now, what I’m saying therefore, and the Karmapa actually attended this, as far as I can tell. I’ve been looking into this. So, the Karmapa incarnation was the first major incarnation that was completely detached from any regional power or local lord. But during the Karmapa’s time, there was no occasion for a monastic, monastery to really take because they were closer super ruler. Turned over monastic power to the country as a whole, like in the case of the Sakyapa. So, the effect, during the Karmapa’s time with the Japanese, the Ming Emperor, the first the, the 0:50:56.3 (Sakya/tsangpa puba?) dynasty which was backed by another branch of the Kagyu. No one Karmapa branch of the Kagyu. Then the Ogyen ??, then the Sakpas. There was.

Rimpoche: Sakpa/tsangpa/sponge bob

Robert: Sak pa/tsangpa(?). There were these three kinds of secular in the sense that they were not lama ruled dynasty. So, that a look into the Karmapa invention was very interesting. Choice to Karmapa. It was never quite connected to political authority. It never needed political authority because during the time, there were these secular dynasties.

Audience: It’s also interesting way to stay away from the

Robert: Well, yes. Yes. If you’re going to be into this thing to kind of separate politics and religion. And dharma is totally separate. Then that seems like nice and good if you are clean. But if you just see it in the way where there is no staying apart actually. It’s a just a matter that it didn’t happen that there was this coming together. In fact, around the turn of the seventeenth century the Karmapa and 0:51:48.4 (?) at that time had a very close relationship with the king of 0:51:51.0 (?). And Raoul(?) was coming into political power. In fact, 0:51:54.8 (?) and actually they got into bad trouble. Because they were pressing too hard against the Gelugpas, who were the most popular throughout the country at that point.

0:52:02.5 But now, then what I’m saying is, now this innovation that I’m talking about goes beyond that kind of strife. So, what I’m saying about that time reference is this. There’s religious power and there’s aristocratic power and ultimately, by this time, the game instead is the aristocratic power realizes that for legitimacy it has to align itself with different religious orders. Because the spiritual has become so important. But still, they all need conceptual bloodlines. And then the fifth Dalai Lama comes along and then he gets in by an outside force. Mongol king jumped in. And cleans out the different oppressors that are after him. And then said “Ok, here’s the country.” Now, what the Dalai Lama would have done, if he was to remain in medieval times, is he would have said, “Ok. I will be the spiritual ruler. The pope. Like Phagpa or Sakya Pandita and you be the secular ruler and you be the king and you take care of politics.” That would have been then a continuing medieval. That’s one thing. Right off the top. And under you, you become the feudal lord over the. A feudal baron lord who are still political with their army. And I’ll just run the spiritual sphere. We’ll have two spheres. See. But he didn’t say that. Instead, he said, “Thank you very much, Mr. Emperor. Good-bye. You can go home. We monks will run the country. We don’t want your army here. Good-bye.” I mean, it took a few years. He didn’t do anything suddenly. .But slowly, he just stayed in 0:53:30.0 power/palace(?) and he said, “We’re going to create.” And then he created from 1650, about to 1680. Over thirty years. He created a completely new invention. This invention was a monastic government. This government was a government ruled by inspiration. No bloodline possible, because no physical offspring. The re recognition can be any family from any region. No 0:53:58.8 (?) even with the region. No armies to be killed. Aristocratic families, you want to serve this government? Ok. You have to move the family to Lhasa. You can keep your estate, only if you serve the government. You get some of these generations, which the thing becomes salaried. For the official. You don’t need it because of your ancestral heredity. And the land actually all belonged to the monastic government. In fact, it was sort of this principle. But yes, you stay on the monastic estate, but if it’s corrupt and your service with the government. You can’t look suspicious .You lose your estate. This, what I’m saying, is 0:54:34.3 (???) of government. Furthermore, you don’t have any private army. You have to move your main members of the family into Lhasa and you serve the government. You don’t get to keep troops out on your estate. From 0:54:45.9 (?). So, you have two forces; the monastic force and the aristocratic force. The aristocratic force is brought under the service of the government. The government serves the monastery, in order to keep the balance of the monastery and the government has been made up of the combination of official of monastic and aristocratic. And the conflicts between monastic and aristocratic, instead of being enacted on the platform of medieval feudal thing, where a baron gets an army. He gets an archbishop behind them and they go out and they fight. Then next baron with the other archbishop as in medieval Europe and medieval Tibet, Phagmodrupa vs Dripungpa ,vs Sakyapa vs Karmapa vs this and that. Instead of that. The competition is within the government. Within an institution. The power struggle is sort of within a, within a form of debate, an argument and politics within the government. So, it’s politicized, in other words, rather than militarized.

0:55:39.9 And this then is what I’m saying is the unification of the whole mind of the country so that there is no secular sphere anymore. And there’s no sacred sphere anymore. But the whole country becomes a sacred country. Do you follow me? And instead, therefore aristocrats get expropriated, totally. Now, You 0:56:00.0 (??) and you’re pretty interesting?

Rimpoche: no, no.

Robert: You know what is very interesting? You know what’s very interesting? Expropriate means they get their whole thing taken away. And this is Tibet’s great achievement. Why the Tibetans don’t worship their ancestors? This is a great achievement. Because everywhere else, you know, which is not a fully Buddhacized country. Everyone’s going around. “Ancestors don’t. My ancestors.” In America, you went to some, there are very great American family of fame. And you’ll see all these funny old photographs. All those grizzly old characters with beards and things like that. Hoping they are. Who’s pictures? They’re ancestors. You know. They may have a lot of common 0:56:33.8 flame somewhere, and you know later that time. The democrat puts it on the wall. Was very proud. In Tibet, in Japan they go nuts about it. In Tibet they don’t care about their ancestors. Why? Because I don’t care about my ancestor. My ancestor might be a dog, right here? Or a duck. You might be my ancestor. You’re supposed to care about living human beings around you. So, the karma theory destroyed the racist level of identity that is connected to ancestors in Tibet. Uniquely among Buddhist countries. And this is reflected in that, the one country that there is a government by incarnation. For even the government is not controlled by any bloodline dynasty.

Audience: Bob

Robert: Yes

Audience: Every noble I talked to. Every noble Tibetan, they all talked about their ancestors.

Robert: Yeah. There are nobles who talk about it. But you don’t find. You go to Japan. And you get into the level of ancestors in Japan or in China. You find something very, very different. They’ll talk about something. Yes. But they don’t have a shrine to their ancestors. In the houses.

Rimpoche: No.

Robert: They don’t

Rimpoche: 0:57:35.2 (???)

Robert: That’s just everywhere. But that’s very prevalent in other East Asian Buddhist countries. It goes parallel with Buddhist countries. In fact, the contrary to karma theory, in fact. Karma theory cuts out the ancestor worship. A few aristocrats. That’s why I say Rimpoche is aristocratic. Hang on to. We have

Rimpoche: No. no

Robert: But

Rimpoche: Robert

Robert: If the thing that says, that I’m talking about

Rimpoche: Robert. What you’re talking right is here.

Robert: Yeah.

Rimpoche: Well, I should have asked. I have to cut you short.

Robert: (laughs)

0:58:01.0 Rimpoche: Because. But you’re right

Robert: Yeah

Rimpoche: It’s perfectly except, the blood lineage to give to the government in power.

Robert: Yeah

Rimpoche: The question is the cut through. With the incarnation taken over. However, it is not cut the ancestors too. Because Tibet never had somehow worshiping ancestors. Come from the East.

Robert: I don’t

Rimpoche: They don’t worship them at all.

Robert: No. No.

Rimpoche: That’s what you give me one

Robert: No. You’re wrong Gelek Rimpoche.

Rimpoche: You give me one. One example where they have the worshiping. One.

Robert: You can find many

Rimpoche: One example

Robert: 0:58:35.6 (?????). The Tibetan king. You can see. Gyalwa Zangpo.

Rimpoche: Did you? Gyalwa Zangpo is never a human being before.

Robert: Well. There

Rimpoche: Therefore, it is not considered to be ancestor at all.

Robert: Rimpoche.

Rimpoche: true.

Robert: Ok. That’s an exercise.

Rimpoche: I want two. Number two. Two. When the fifth Dalai Lama took in power.

Robert: Yeah.

0:59:02.3 Rimpoche: It is not the fifth Dalai Lama. I’m supposed to talk fifth Dalai Lama today, anyway. Fifth Dalai Lama always lose their power. It is not, though the Mongolian come and handed over the whole country. However, it is not that he got foreign power at all. I mean, this area what he controlled in invading villages. Number one. Number two. The Mongol, the Mongol and honestly I can’t know what is that.

Robert: Altan. Gushi Khan.

Rimpoche: Gushi Khan. Gushi Khan continuously become. He get very straighter. Offered the Dalai Lama and go with the desi tashita. He has become chief administrator.

Robert: Not for long

Rimpoche: And what. He is the first desi of Tibet in the Dalai Lama’s administrator.

Robert: But wait. You just said. You just said. I disagree with you. You just said that before that, these monasteries popped like mushrooms all over the land.

Rimpoche: That’s true.

Robert: Now since that Dalai Lama was representing monastic government then he did have wide area power through the monastics. Through that monastic inseparable. That’s what suddenly there. Everywhere. You just said it was everywhere in the country.

Rimpoche: Yeah .But.

Robert: Ok. Then how can you say.

Rimpoche: I have one question. Whether in 1642, the 1:00:30.4 government. fifth Dalai Lama. Happens to be any kind of a lama.

Robert: Yeah

Rimpoche: Officially Dalai Lama. But not sort of, you know, overworking. And I. As a matter of fact, he is the 1:00:45.3 (??). More kind of the Drepung incarnate lama. So, who’s suddenly has become pop up as sort of a ruler for all the country

Robert: Yeah.

Rimpoche: And whether he has really influenced total Tibet wherever. The government (??) 1:01:03.1 Where is the Gelugpa monastery is. Whether he had controlled that corridor or not is a question to be decided.

Robert: Of course. What I’m

Rimpoche: 1:01:11.8 (??) That’s the

Robert: But wait a minute. See. It’s the point we’re in and then the key about this central issue of control that’s very crucial .???, The issue of control is very interesting. Is what you said before, I completely agree with and I support. And fundamentally Buddhism has a built in theme against super organizations strong hierarchies, strong like official, like grant by marriage structure and so forth. And sort of tendency to decentralizing. 1:01:44.5 (Holme?) as well as the study of Buddhism in China, and complains and complains that the Buddhist institution in China, which was huge. They own, like millions of acres or land and millions of monks and nuns. But it was totally vulnerable to the communist before that, because of the nationalist, the 1:01:44.5 Kuomintang (?)

1:01:58.5 Because they had no central organization at all. They did italmost happening in one place, in another place. They had no lay policy. They had no spokesperson. They were just totally decentralized. So, what you said about them is true. But. But it is a strange paradox here, Rimpoche, that the fifth Dalai Lama took when he succeeded, but I think is something so great here. See.

Rimpoche:

Robert: No. Because. You see, what you say, establish control. It’s the ability to establish control. We’re thinking of conventional government. That what conventional governments are concerned with is, they’re concerned with doing a lot of things. So, control is a big thing. It means bringing up big armies. You know, they built roads. 1:02:36.9 ????.

Rimpoche: No, no.

Robert: No, no. You got a country. Excuse me 1:02:39.8 ??duck, Rimpoche. In this country, control means three hundred billion dollarhundred-billion-dollar defense budget. Three hundred billion dollars. So, in history when you take control, “No that’s 1:02:50.0 su pee en us bots”. Coercion is going on in that government. Now, the point it. That what the Dalai Lama did, he said, “If I have a government, like we did before. Where you have the unstable aristocrats, being big shots and running everything. Have an army. It’s an unstable situation. The peoples’ lives are too controlled and too many non-dharmic activitiessts. So, let the folks who are into minimal control and the biggest institution of freedom. And this whole concern in the monastery finally, is human freedom. Enlightenment. The path. The spiritual path. Let them actually keep this government a minimalist government. Let’s set up our government the whole budget is for them to keep the monastery. Basically. Not even bother withThat is the problem with the road system Now there’s a problemeven bother with an army system. Let’s have a government effort. And that’s what is fantastic, innovation, but it can only be achieved by crushing the aristocratic bloodline notion of Tibetan rulers up to that time. That they were bosses. That they would have slaves as servants and they could just. It’s a medieval n evil idea. And I feel I’ll do wthat we did. It’s the central government it’s to give in to, they have to an institution that hasn’t seeded the seed of really doing that and work for three hundred years pretty well. This is why

John: I will say, parshingparsing the aristocracy to move strong may be the aristocracy was effected by religious ??.

Robert: Well, I want to say once again.

John: They existed. They continued.

1:04:13.1 Robert: Yes, they did. Here it is. But let me say one thing though. In Manchu China, at this time, in Louis the Fourteenth France, you know that the Versailles was built at the same time as the Potala. At the end of that century, Peter the Great of Russia, the guy in Austria. The big problem of the whole Eurasian planet. At this time was, precisely central people, they’re merging as the monarch with a sort of urban rationalized society, backed by merchants. Trying to control hereditary regional lords. And you know what Louis the Fourteenth strategy was? This was his strategy. This was not just like, he like to powder his hair and wear weird stockings. It was a written outwritten-out strategy. I 1:04:55.8 paused(?) controlled the lords of France by throwing the greatest party in history. I want to build the best party house in history. And there’s going to be one constant entertainment here and all the barons are going to come here to have this party. And go to this fashion show. And watch these artists put on their, you know, 1:05:14.4 (biggestnobidious rug dress?rats). And that’s’ what to distract them from their local power base and their local armies. And I’m going to really send them a strong central national rule. Peter the Great did the same thing in building St Petersburg with the voyeurs/voyarge of Russia. So, it was very interesting that the whole formation of the modern world, everywhere else, has fused the development by the centralized figures, who do kind of organization and who building up merchants, you know bourgeoisie, who imparts the o imparts the bourgeoise business, with; over old hereditary hierarchical power. And it is a transition from the feudal to the medieval; medieval feudal to the modern bourgeois era. All the 1:05:52.5hotel misfits, the historians will study that. So, in fact, what the Dalai Lama was doing. All the Tibet, let the China regards to doing the same thing. The Yongle Kangxi Emperor of 1:06:01.5 (?)western China. At the state (?)dfdfdfasdf and in China they were very explicit about it. If you want to keep your land, the Manchu overlords said, “You send your children and your wife and everybody to Beijing. And if you screw up to try to start any kind of like, revolt against me, they get killed. They have in effect, the Capitols for these kings were places where their aristocratic families as it were hostage. For their lack of decentralization and lack of too proud and to pledge that theirthey’re not starting any war of this kind of conflict. That the 1450 that the medieval period 1:06:35.8 (?)sara at this time. So, now those people in those cases did it, secularized by building up a super army and crushing everybody. The fifth Dalai Lama did it by his monastic direction. Without any bloodshed. Hopefully he was helped, initiated by the Mongol army. So, in other words, this isn’t about crushing. It’s not. It’s. It’s a 1:06:57.2 (?)choble thing that happened in this era. And in Tibet monastic, specially the aristocrats, I think, will tell you that all along they were in charge. They were fine. They’reir wrong.

Rimpoche: They’re very wrong.

Robert: The central government was in charge.

Rimpoche: Whaat happened is. What happened is, the central government really doesn’t. 1:07:18.8 ???dfasfdasdffasd. And their arguments won’t befsfsaass an advantage. So, the proof is, if you look even up to that king. During the Fourth Dalai Lama. Each one of them is aristocracy, they have been reduced the number of armies. And dffffaaf in case of a war that came to the country.

Robert: Thirteenth Dalai Lama tried commit

Rimpoche: He wetffdfffsdfa????. Until the presentthirteenth Dalai Lama, who really established a central Tibet powerful government. Government, I don’t really think they have. I mean, theThey same thing what you’re id, they won’t be talking is very beautiful. HoweverHowever, I was thinking that time. They. I. I was encourageddffafas by what I was.

Robert: ….

Rimpoche: Because they’re communist. Because they’re the statefffas. Because they rule. And the government officials this are the aristocratic families. That’s truly a fact.

Robert: Ok .Ok. Let me ask you this first.

Rimpoche: I’ll

Robert: No. No. You said

Rimpoche: You support 1:08:19.7 fdfaddf. ……

Robert: We just didn’t want to. Can I interrupt

Rimpoche: Because every tried to get roundfsfafasf. I couldn’t. as a member of the government.

Robert:John: Back in eighty-seven they are.

1:08:34.4 Government in exile.

Robert: No. you don’t understand are. my point, you guys. I’m not saying they killed the aristocracy. I think Tthey brought them in the way to control them under the . Mmonastic government.

Rimpoche: I don’t think so

Robert: So, they no longer have to.

Rimpoche: Now for example.

Robert: But I have

Rimpoche: For example

Robert: I have one proof

Rimpoche: Yeah.

Robert: That I already saidCan’t argue.

Rimpoche: Yeah

Robert: Total proof.

Rimpoche: What

Robert: From 1640. Ok. From 1340. From 1340 the government ofin Tibet turned over five times.

Rimpoche: Yes, that’s true. Right..

Robert: And it’s a different regent and a different aristocratic government in control. Ok? From 1640 until 1940 it doesn’t turn over once. There’s not one power in Tibet that tried to take control of the central government. Not one. So, I would like

Rimpoche: I’m not sure, that’s true. Yes

Robert: Oh

Rimpoche: I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’m not sure.

Robert: Not one.

Rimpoche: Yes. They did.

Robert: They struggled within the government structure, but not to take control from outside. There is no more regional..

Rimpoche: They did

Robert: Control

Rimpoche. They did because of the

Robert: And it’s a different region and a different aristocratic family had control of it. Ok?

Rimpoche: Oh

Robert: From 1640 until 1940 it doesn’t turn over once

Rimpoche: Yes.

Robert: There’s not one power in Tibet that tried to take control of the central government. Not one. So, outside people.

Rimpoche: I’m not sure. I’m not sure .I’m not sure.

Robert: Not one.

Rimpoche: Yes. They did

Robert: They grew within the government structure but not to take control from outside. There’s no more regional.

Rimpoche: Because of the

Robert: Now , you’re just making up history.

Rimpoche: What about 1:09:32.8dffadffa war?

Robert: That was inThat’s within the structure.

Rimpoche: What do you mean within in the structure

Robert: That’s just some trifling within the structure.

Rimpoche: It is not. It is government Bon and why even fuel

Robert: It’s not the … Within the system

Rimpoche: Within the system. 1:09:46.4 ……

Robert: It’s like the tantric god versus the person of congress. That’s not like Arkansas attacking Washington.

Rimpoche: Well. Anyway, that’s. That’s some of the west and I don’t think where the kingwe reached any point here. So, what is the true fact is. (Laughs)

Audience: That’s true.

Rimpoche: That the fifth Dalai Lama really have a sort of 1:10:13.4kenchobee united power. Interesting point too. And he had established a government which had two systems combined. We always talk about it. Very proudly talk about it. Two systems. But1:10:32.0 (???). Two systems. That is systemjust some of the monastery and the system of the secular.

Robert: Right.

Rimpoche: It combined

Robert: Integrate

Rimpoche: Integrate.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: Combined together. That is true. And that’s how government fsdffdfasd established.

Robert: Ok

Rimpoche: I don’t think it has ratight ovh over. Or what this guy or that guy. It is a combination. It is the most important. And it is combined. A movement establish in 1642. And that fact of course already controlled in 1:11:12.8 ??China.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: And biography.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: And even today. The Tibetans call for ?? in China, but they’re destroying books. The Dalai Lama, over forty volumes forty different titles and proof of it. And I guess that’s it. I don’t want to talk much because it is late.

Robert: Yeah. I thought you had one more thing.

Rimpoche: Thank you. Ten thirty five.

Robert: Just one thing about that. It’s that you are quite right in a certain social sense. Until the thirties. It took hundreds of years for it to further develop. The political thing. But one thing that’s most interesting that the fifth Dalai Lama did. I just handing is understanding this other fact. And that is that government is ruled by ideology and by ritual. And thereforetherefore, that Dalai Lama, he made a national theatre and he built most of all. He built the Potala. On the site of the original dharma king. He built the Potala. And I just want to leave you with this to reflect about. If you think that Tibet is not an important piece of the panel. Well, even if it was only a few million people. East of the Potala and as 1:12:16.9stills(?) of the Potala were rising, Versailles was built. Petersburg was built. The Taj Mahal was built. Beijing was built. And it’s really interesting. It’s really interesting.

Rimpoche: Thank you

Robert: Good night.

Rimpoche: Before you go, I’ve got two more things today

Robert: Well, that’ s ok.

Rimpoche: One is that Tibet fair and the question..

Lama Pema: To, to debate with the Tibetan teacher. The reason is because in the first line of the writing he says, 0:00:12.6 (Tibetan: she je tam che su be chen pa) Means, the one who has wide eyes sees everything. So, that really provoked everybody else. Who can see everything? And they basically say, “Who’s that? Who knows everything, who’s omniscient?” So, they came up and started to. All they enter Tibet and then started the debate in the place called 0:00:40.6 Mahalangur Chitwan, right below the, right behind the Nepalese border actually. Right behind the Everest. And there the debate took place and they were defeated. And later they renounced their system and became monk. And until recently, until 1959, their hairs, when they cut off their hairs to become monk were still preserved in the Sakya monastery in Tibet as the proof of that.

Rimpoche:….

Robert: Long hair

Lama Pema: Yeah

Robert: Long sadhu hair.

Rimpoche: ..

Lama Pema: …Genuine.

Rimpoche:

(Hmm. Otherwise, I’ll fall asleep. When Tibetan tells a story, you don’t tell a story in daylight. You know, like, the light on. You have no books, nothing. You all sleep and mother has to tell story and children has to say in the dark, hmm peewr. Kind of say. The biggest

Robert: You lure to sleep by pretending to go ho hum.

Lama Pema: it’s still. So, the mother will know whether you are actually sleeping or still listening.

Robert: Otherwise

Lama Pema: So, the. He. The. So, that what actually decided all this, when he debated and he became first teacher who actually are exposed to the other Buddhist system belief. And then come in contact and debated and defeated in an open, open tournament. So, it is again for the Tibetan history something to noted. You know, to think about it. In India a lot of thing happen like that. You know, Indian Buddhist debating Buddhism and the winning and so forth.

0:03:00.5 So, his fame actually spread all over India, Tibet and the Chinese, China. The then China, who was recently ruled by the Mongol China. Respect all over So, the. So, the. It was the same time when Tibet after the king Langdarma’s death, until Sapan’s time, as I said earlier, Tibet is kind of interspersed. Has no central rule. No central thing to look for. Everybody’s sort oflike, having a small like curtain(?) states of united. Something like that. It’s kind of like that. So, the. It was for the Tibetans, it was Sapan’s great name, greased. While we call, actually Sapan’s great compassion. His far. That really helped save the Tibetans to, from that time until now, 1959 to come into this kind of integrated, kind of Tibet as overall thing. That’s how I should say it. If I’m wrong you have to forgive.

Robert:……

Lama Pema: It’s my perception, now. Doesn’t mean anything. And it is it is not because it is warfare, fighting war for anything. Nothing. It’s just the learning. This inner sage/search?. That really saved. Just as you have, what do you call? Maybe it is difficult to understand. Like the, when Milton wrote a poem, he saved the country from the war. Do you know that story? Something like that. Of course, totally different way of looking at it. But something like, this one person saved the whole Tibet from the destruction and later what Tibet actually came to be, integral Tibet. Our eng political upheaval or you know, attempt to rule one another. The Sapan, Mongols, Genghis Khan, actually ruled the China, and actually took over Tibet. Just a few wars and Tibet just simply said yes. And started giving the, what do you call it, tributary? Tributes.

Robert: tributes

Lama Pema: tributes. Yeah. After the Genghis Khan death, Tibet stopped paying it. So, they thought they were free, now since he is dead. So, Genghis Khan’s son, actually Godan is aneckan grandson. Godan. He sent lute army into Tibet and he actually again, came up and killed thousands of monks, burned hundreds of monasteries, and came all the way up to the center of Tibet. So, there was a time when Godan was very much need, for many needs. One need; he wasn’t in need of power anymore from Tibet. He don’t need any wealth, anymore. Because Tibet doesn’t look anyway like you could get anything out of that.

0:06:09.6 But actually what you are looking for is an enlightened teacher. He was looking for that. He sent his minister called, Dorta and Leje. The two minister to look, what is there in Tibet you can find it. And look whether you can find a great teacher, because I need that. So, they looked around and they saw different traditions, like Drikungpa and Kadampa and so forth. And all the teacher, at that time is the greatest teacher seems to be the Sakya Pandita. So, and then the, what do you call. I want to read the, what do you call, the story, the invitation. Basically, it was a. It wasn’t quite an invitation, but the. The. It’s a kind of a. Well, since you will never have time to look at those histories, but this is time, just hear something about it. It will be nice. So, he sent an invitation, saying, “I, the most powerful perse perse King Godan wishing for Sakya Pandita Kunga Gyaltsen. That we need a lama to advise my ignorant people on how to conduct themselves, morally and spiritually. I need someone to pray for the welfare for my deceased parents.” That was another reason. “To whom I am deeply grateful. I have been pondering this problem for some time and after much consideration, I have decided that you are the only person suitable for the task. As you are the only lama I have chosen, I will not accept any excuse on account of your age.” Because Sapan is very old at that time, over sixty years old. Over sixty years. “Or the vigors of the journey. The Lord Buddha gave his life for all living beings.” Here he’s cause. He’s already learned because China at that time is, I think, half the world at that time is Buddhist. Do you know that time? Because almost all China is Buddhist. So, he knows all about the Buddha’s teaching. All he needs is a teacher, actually a teacher. “Lord Buddha gave his life for all living beings. Would you not therefore,, be denying your faith if you try to avoid this duty of yours? It would of course be easy for me to send a large body of troops to bring you here. But in so doing harm and unhappiness ;might be brought to many units and living beings. In the interest of Buddhist faith and welfare of all living beings, creatures, I suggest that you come to us immediately.” (laughter)

0:08:50.6 The. The. That’s the thing and then later on the actually the story runs. How you know, Sapan has to write lot of letters because Tibetans need him much back in Tibet. And he wrote a letter to Kadampa, one of the Kadampas students called Kadampa 0:09:04.7Namkha Drak/Bum(?) This Kadampa 0:09:06.8 Namkha Drak(?) for scholar is useful is one of Kadampa school and become the very much student of Sapan and later on is a student; became a great teacher. So, he wrote these to, as answers to certain letters to Namkha Drak. He said, “These Mongols have told me that you must at any rate come to be our religious teacher and if you will not come, there will be war. Therefore it is better that I go with them, for fear that Tibet would suffer if war break out. I have no more than a hope that, that will bring, that will be benefited by my doing. Yet I have no certainty it will be so. Nonetheless, I know I can give my body in life if that will bring benefit for living beings.” Now, to the Buddhist, that is, more than anything else, if a person can give up one’s body for sentient beings, then that is actually shows when you attain the stage called bodhisattva bhumi. The actual intentional, of thoughtful meaningful giving only is the sign. You can read the Ahisamayalankara. You know, how you, when you reach the such and such state, what is your outward sign of inward experience. That is exactly when you receive such and such. So, that actually shows, he’s the great enlightened teacher. Now, so, Sapan went to India, went to Mongol China, up to all the way down to the placed called Liangzhou/Lingchu? Len chow? How do you pronounce?

Robert: Leng cho

(insert time here) Lama Pema: Len chow. And he took, actually, three actual almost three years to get there. The what, passing through the Lhasa, Samye Monastery, and basically Sapan’s teaching headquarter, later Lingchu and previously sachu? And the Samye in the Lhasa. These are the three places of his major teaching places. So, in Samye, he basically, what do you call, renovated the kind of dilapidated Samye Monastery. And painted the monastery. He even created a famous painting called 0:11:24.7 Dom Sum Tenba(?) Dom Sum Tanba. That year. Of all the Tibetan, what do you call it? Of all the Tibetan style of painting, the when you see the sword, you know, basically you can guess, you know. Roughly you guess this is; this original painting comes from this very famous painting there. He painted in the walls of Samye Monastery and put the, wrote a poem about it. And you can still look at it. You can see every now and them. You can come across Tibetan book or many translated books. So, he passed through the Samye and that is where, actually, the, his nephew who is ten years old, called Phagpa became ordained in Samye Monastery. So, when he went to, finally we see, landed in China in Liangzhou, he was then led by the Godan, who was just enthroned as the king. And they, they both turned cloth,we call fen la, the fen means the chieftain or king or whatever. La means the teacher. For the teacher, what we call, later, what you call in the Western term, Priest, patron top type of thing. They met. And there actually, Sapan’s great impact on their lives was, what do you call? The, when he started teaching and introducing the Tibetan Vajrayana teaching for the first time. First, initiating the king himself. So, those are the time. It is a little bit, not too widely known in the general folks. But usually, you know, like anything else, the chieftains, the teacher; actually owns the teacher. You know, once he invites. So. So, again, the tantric Buddhism is especially difficult to develop, because teaching only can be given for twenty-five students. So, he limit yourself and you can’t reach. So, the; he taught and another thing, a significant thing that Sapan did directly to the Godan is because one of the reasons Godan, actually, his mundane reason was to heal him from this, what do you call? He suffering from leper, leprosy, and Sapan actually, through the, 0:13:42.5( mantra path Maitripa (singhanada)?), healed this leprosy at that time. So, the king gained a lot of path and very much devoted to the Buddhism. There is more of an esoteric aspect of the story; inner story usually gets by scholars and Tibetan delivers that actually was the; since king is Buddhist, he need a great Buddhist teacher to actually, to solve the problem that they are having at that time, between the Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. That is supposed to be. Some scholar thinks that way. Maybe wrong. Maybe just their supposition. Half heard issues. But that is one of the reasons because, the name that reach China is primarily not just the word of the messenger told him, but because this famous name, when he debated Indian logicians and teacher. Respectfrom what do you call it? gabbyhor. Tibet; hor means Mongol and then China. So sort of everybody sort of knew like we know right now the, you know, like, what do you call it, nuclear war, something. We know. We know all about it. At that time.

0:14:57.7 That is another reason, he was looking for spiritual teacher who can actually solve the problem there, but unfortunately Sapan lived only for six years or something. He didn’t live much in China. There was a repeated request by the Tibetan. And he wrote repeated letters, such as a letter to the Tibetans and all. And letter to my students. A letter to such and such. A letter to answer to the prince. A letter. So, in these collection of works, you can read all kinds of letters. The. In his collection of works, you can find. Usually connect with the spiritual work. Basically Sapan on the other hand is very much help in the most spiritual method to protect the Tibetan from the destruction. So, they have their own independence in their own way. And basically, pleasing, taking care of the king, by his own spiritual power. That is how the first time the priest as king was actually coming up at that time. And we know our present king and teacher and leader, His Holiness Dalai Lama. It’s a similar, similar form. Just the same thing. These are the, what do you call, the original, the earliest form of the priest king, that happened to be. The. So, Sapan actually wrote over hundred and forty works, dependent on different lengths. The famous are the thing called, the Dom Sum. The Treasury. Now the Legs Shad is the kind of go collection of elegant saying. This is the mark of all the Tibetans, even now. It is so widely spoken, world renowned. And all other books, basically the writing is esoteric. The Vajrayana form of Buddhism which doesn’t make sense to you right now. And the. The one of the most contribution that he gave in the form of writing and studying is this called: Mams Jug. How do you call Mams Jug? Lexicon.

Robert: Mams Jug, the

Lama Pema: How do you say in English.

Robert: Lexicon. Encyclopedia.

Lama Pema: Yeah. Encyclopedia, which doesn’t exist. And he started writing. Translating for the first time, for the what do you call? Poetry from India to Tibet. Sanskrit in Tibet. Which later became the authoritative text written by the Gundee. The poet in India. And he started studying it. He wrote drama. He wrote all kinds of, in other words, I told you before.

0:17:41.9 So, one of the most important thing he wrote is, in the later part of his, later few days of his life, which had extended over two years, in China, he wrote the thing called the letter to do, letter to all the Tibetans, he wrote. And then the religious text called, Sage’s Intent. Means the teaching, summarizing all Buddha’s teaching. Giving the title, it’s what Buddha intend to teach, you know. It’s called Sage’s Intent. He’s saying these two books and basically he, in those letters, he really said, he’s unable to come back to Tibet. He basically gave up that he is going to live forever, the rest of his life, no matter how he’s living. And that became legacy as he kind of lost whatever, the things to give back to the Tibet. So, over that years, I’m telling this story just to kind of give you a kind of basis, a conception, a kind of person; a teacher. Not to, I’m not digging how great he is, how smart. I’m not digging part. You are the one who is going to judge, if you want to study further. Now, those are the days. Actually, of Kublai Khan, the great king. Maybe you have book, you have the book specific. Kublai Khan is the another king new to the Godan. I think he is successor, yes?

Robert: Yes

Lama Pema: The. He actually definitely want Sapan to come back to his place, by the time Sapan passed away. So, Godan also died at the same time. Same. Basically the same year. But what left behind, this is the Phagpa. In China, Chinese call fossil. Phagpa. His original name’s Chogyal Phagpa. Means the dharma king. Dharma King. Do you see this? The original first word, Dharma King. The Dharma King, Chogyal Phagpa is only nineteen years old. He’s a kid. Right? From the teen years. And the. But he. Because he’s learning, he’s scholar. Because he’s great sage himself. He actually learn all he needs to learn from Sakya Pandita. And Sakya Pandita finally said, “You have learned everything that I have to teach you. Now I’m giving you my dharma heir, as my dharma heir.” So, he give his gold status of Buddha and a conch shell as a kind of, whatever, that’s the tradition to do, the teacher to give student.

0:20:23.0 So, the Phagpa who’s only nineteen year old, took over the charge to actusfsf, to as the religious heir to Sapan and this Phagpa, who is nineteen year old, actually influenced the king so much, turned then into Vajrayana Buddhist, gave the initiation and he’s the one first to conquer. Basically, through the spiritual power, to Tibet, back to Tibet himself, without even killing one person. And he gave Tibet back to Tibet itself. In other words, as a token of the offering, of the gift, to the dharma gift that Phagpa gave to Kublai Khan. Kublai Khan gave him back Tibet to these, what do you call? To this great teacher. Later he also gave him Imperial Preceptor as the title. They call it 0:21:16.1 Guoshi(?) in China, which king, teacher or something. So, this Phagpa became very instrumental for the Kublai Khan’s purpose. Because Phagpa, actually, for the rest of his life, except for almost about eight years of his life, he actually spend most of life, (eighteen years in Tibet, probably, all in all) in China. So, the. Of course that means he had already mastered the Chinese language by now. So, he is the one who is about at that time, about twenty-seven or something, or twenty-nine, who actually resolved the. Who actually participated in the debate between the two hundred Buddhists, two hundred Taoist, two hundred Confucians, in the place called 0:22:13.9 (????) (Kaiping???) I don’t know much about it. locality called Karakrum. And he’s the, a kind of, the hero of that debate and basically defeated the, what do you call? Taoist beliefs of certain things. Here it says something or other. He. The. The. In other words, there was a strong belief within the Taoist that even actually proved that how the text go here ching which translate as conversion of the Taoism, that it is false. The only text that is true, actually true is the what do you call it? The other I Ching. I think I ching is the only text that is the right thing. In other words, he actually took over this kind of same thing that Sapan, his uncle actually took in it’s, in Tibet.

0:23:19.7 Not only that, there are different problems with different scholars. Some say Sapan. Some say Phagpa. But one way another, one of the teacher actually devised for the first time a script for Mongolian to facilitate this existing colloquial language to translate entire Buddhist canon into that language. And he, he invented a script called phags-pa script in the letter, his name. And that is the very much look like Tibetan. You can see, if you find a book. The. And. And through his inspiration, the Mongolians really undertook to actually translate the Buddhist canon. And that didn’t took more than three, thirty years or something. It was translated back in Tibet, in Mongolian. So, the basically, Phagpa is the one who, who regained this Tibet back to the Tibetans, themselves. So, all this teacher, I’m not going to list other teachers that we have in our texts. The letter teachers. So, in other words, the power and the realization, the understanding of those great teachers is actually what they call the study and the practice of this specific cycle of the tantra called the Hevajra. And that is the cycle of tantra, which the overall corpus of Lamdre, is actually explain it. And that is still taught and we still have this lineage. You don’t have to worry that its scattered away some more time. It is still alive. You know, you want a love them, you can cuddle them. You know, you can adopt them neither. Whatever you want. It’s still taught in a living tradition. And the, this is the, that same power, that actually got these teachers enlightened and these beings benefited and liberated. And these Tibetan people who enjoy the lasting peace for several centuries, such as these teachings. So, to the others; other religious system, you have teaching called Lam Rim. To the Gelugpa system, you have Lam Rim .To the Kagyu system you have this called the Six Yogas of Naropa. You know, doesn’t mean anything different, but a special kind of, each carrying their own kind of certain aspect of Buddhism as whole. And to the Nyingmapa, you know, the Dzogpa Chenpo, the great compassion and so forth. This. So, this is actually. How much time do we have?

Robert: 0:26:05.8 (Tibetan: rt and lp)

0:26:31.0 Lama Pema: So, the. So, the Lamdre system as the, what do you call? That is what has been practiced. And if you want to study, you can study now. In writing the preliminary books, reading the books, studying under the teachers of your own way. And so forth. But the. As the main style, the whole thing is the tantric system, based on the Hevajra tantra. Is the little bit successful because, by, because its nature of secrecy. That’s the only problem for the public has it. So, you have to give up lot to finally come to this point. You know. Even your ideas, even yourself, any, everything. You basically make yourself non-being and make a being out of that. The. The. So, this Lamdre system is actually again, same thing. Has been preserved, practiced, by the same Khon family. Same Khon family. So, the same Khon family. One of the interesting things to me. I don’t know for you. This. We have a definite record of these, how many years? Of about twelve hundred years, this family lineage. A direct lineage. One after another. That is something. You know, if nothing else. And the, and still exists. The Khon family still exists in the form of the emanation of Manjushri. His Holiness Sakya Trizin in India, Present head of Sakya family; Sakya tradition school and both. Another branch of family lives in Seattle, called 0:28:16.1 Dagchen Rimpoche. Same thing. And they are the one who holds this, this Lamdre system and who teaches. But that doesn’t mean that other teacher, so far doesn’t have any responsibility or have no share or something. Doesn’t mean. But this family took over, like you took over certain children to adopt and save life. In same way, this family actually took over sometime as the king, sometime as priest, sometime as landlords, sometime as chieftains. Basically whatever form they are took over the place of Sakya and preserved to the Lamdre system there. And basically taught in Tibet, these three great places. Which later the Sakya school developed itself. The three school called: Ngor school. Most of the painting you saw, very much