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1Soundfile 198712141116GR&RTMN12_01

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche & Robert Thurman

Location ??

Topic Tibet Mystic Nation

Transcriber Vickii Cahill

Date January 2 2022

0:00:25.1 (begins) Robert: No, no, no, no. I give up. I already conceded today. I give up. I surrendered. Of course, the term I used last week of being crushed was therefore an exaggeration. Just whatever you want me to say. It was an exaggerated term. Speaking in terms of Louis the Fourteenth or in terms of the 0:00:50.5 voyars(?) of the Peter the Great. It’s a term that comes out of political thinking (?). So, it rather he sort of integrated. That’s a better word. I agree. 0:01:01.1 (Tibetan: Yab ye..) So, now tonight I’m very happy to introduce our visitor for the evening which is Mr. Rinchen Dharlo. Who is the representative of His Holiness the Dalai Lama in the United States. We are very lucky and fortunate to come with us. And this last class, I thought it was very appropriate to have him come. You’re in Tibet house now Rinchen-la. This is not the open center, but temporarily it’s Tibet House. And to have him visit us, thought it would be very good omen. Although everyone is saying Rimpoche. People have been saying that they are very sorry this is the last class. They feel we’ve just skimmed the surface of Tibetan history which is absolutely true. Normally just a 0:01:55.1 mini course(?). But I told them that that was the purpose of it. To show how much there is to learn about this more wonderful ancient culture. And will be the precursor of many, many years of such courses and specific even in one century or one figure can be studied for a whole semester or a whole year. Whole lifetime. And so, it’s the precursor of many such courses that will be taught in the open center. In the future we are all hoping. So, this is Mr. Rinchen Dharlo, we mentioned. Did you bring your video tape for us? You have it tonight, set up the monitor. Good. A little later one in the program, we will show Rinchen-la has brought us a tape, which we can see. And we will carry on the discussion with that. I thought to begin with, I would have to run through a few more centuries first and then second. Second, Rimpoche would fill us with a brief thumbnail sketch of His Holiness the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, who is your great uncle. Is that right, Rimpoche? Great uncle. And actually yes, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama was born also in an aristocratic family. He was an exception to the rule. You know, I thought he was in an aristocratic. 0:03:09.5 (Tibetan:..)nominated, any ey weighed most heavily, you can write a sort of anyshe or sheThere’s a letter. Nominations arefrequent0:00:27.4 committee(?) (??) as I said, he’s been the list0:00:46.7 (??) it would be doneAudience: When do they vote?

Not peasant family. I heard it was well to do family. Anyway, he was a little bit higher family than many of, like the first Dalai Lama was born as a herdsman in a tent. So, we’ll come to that

0:03:36.6 Now, where we had left off was with the Fifth Dalai Lama. And that was, as you know, that was the marvelous seventeenth century. And I began to connect the seventeenth century in the east which that of the west. From the time I had a meeting once with His Holiness the fourteenth Dalai Lama and Derek Bok, the president of Harvard, sort of a few years ago, about three years ago. And we were sitting down chatting and then they started asking each other, “Well. How old is your institution?” “Well, how old is yours?” and so on. They were doing this kind of thing. And so first of all, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is identified with the Drepung Monastery, which was founded in 1419. So, he sort of beat Derek Bok by two centuries. And Derek Bok looked somewhat crestfallen. First Derek Bok was looking great. He’s 0:04:23.9 (?) in fact taller then the Dalai Lama. He was feeling very secure for a while. And then he, he was, he only, his thing was only founded in 1637. Harvard was founded in 1637. He was quite proud of that. In America. As it turned out Drepung monastery was founded in 1419 and he was, fit, crestfallen. What Drepung. The Dalai Lamas were originally incarnations in Drepung Monastery. Before they, before the fifth Dalai Lama. And then. Then to make him feel better, the Dalai Lama somewhat gradually thought of something. He said, “Oh well. Actually, we began to build the Potala in the sixteenth thirties.” As it turned out the Potala, the rebuilding of the Potala began about 1638. And really went on in earnest from 1640, 1641. So, it is amazing that Harvard and the Potala are built almost at the same time as was Oxford. Sir Isaac Newton was running around that time. It was so. It was an important time in both centuries. Anyway, the Fifth Dalai Lama did accomplish this feat of creating a country. I consider it symbolically the fully Buddhacized country, as I think I told you in the very first class. But I might as well recapitulate that idea. And symbolically you can see that idea by the fact that in the context it represents the beginning of Buddhism in Tibet. The one thousand. Well, actually less than a thousand years earlier.

0:05:54.0 About eight hundred years earlier, where you have Padmasambhava as the adept. You have king Trisong Detsen as the royal bodhisattva. The king. Then you have the abbot Shantarakshita as the abbot, the monastic leader. So, you. These are three figures that you’ll see many thangkas from the early era of Padma Samye. Founding of Samye monastery. Which technically should be the beginning of the dharma in a country where the monastery is there. Where the first monastery is built. And these three figures are three separate figures. So, you see sort of a triumvirate. You know, 0:06:28.2 (Tibetan: pen lo cho sum…) The abbot, the adept and the dharma king. And by the. The Fifth Dalai Lama becomes all three of those himself. So, that these three figures are fused in one figure in a certain sense, by the thousand years or eight hundred years later. He is an abbot. He is adept. And he is a king. And he rebuilds his monastery. And the Potala building also contains this symbolism. It’s. What? You’re making some. Making nasty comments in Tibetan. (laughs) Rimpoche is being naughty now. Now you have someone you can gossip with while I’m talking. How awful. I have to pretend I don’t know Tibetan so I’ll just think he’s saying religious prayers. You know what we all think Tibetans should be doing. So. And then he built the Potala on the site where Songtsen Gampo had his original residence. So, he identifies himself with the king. The Dharma King lineage of Tibet, by building his main residence on the, Potala, on the red mountain near Lhasa. There is a monastery in the Potala. The Namgyal Monastery. And then he is of course an adept because in that monastery they keep up the mandalas of Kalachakra and so forth. And Yamantaka and all the great mandalas inherited from the teaching of Tsongkhapa in particular. Along with Vajrakilaya and a number of mandalas that the Fifth Dalai Lama who had; whose father was a Nyingma and who had a lot of connections with the Nyingma orders. He also maintained. And actually, the two greatest Nyingma Monasteries in central Tibet. Mindrolling Monastery and Dorje Drak Monastery were both built by the Fifth Dalai Lama. This, I was surprised. I had read it, but I hadn’t really realized the significance of it until I was in Tibet this summer. And I was, went with a gentleman who was a Nyingma and he would say, “Let’s go see the great Nyingma Monasteries.” I said, “Great. Let’s go.” And we got there I said, “Well, now, who built this monastery?” Thinking it would harken back to Padmasambhava. Turned out the Fifth Dalai Lama had built them and maintained them both. So, he was patron of. You know, he also, by moving out of Drepung Monastery, the Fifth Dalai Lama, he associated himself with all the orders of Tibetan Buddhism. And dissociated himself from the Gelugpa orders on purpose. In order to try to represent all of the different factions, in order to really create a government.

0:08:52.8 He then set about certain things such as try to create a national health care system. By promoting the Chagpori medical college. He tried to create a national theatre. He moved the Mon Lam, they added dimensions to the great prayer festival that had been going on for several centuries. So, as to make it a time of national reunion. Bringing people together. He set up a sort of Macey’s day parade idea. Which were all made in butter. The Tibetans in Lhasa every new year had a Macey’s day parade. It was just instead of a giant rubber Pluto or Mickey Mouse, he made a giant, you know Vajrasattva something out of butter. And they were sometimes three, four stories high. Am I right Rimpoche? Three stories high sometimes. Robert: So,, 0:01:12.2 will not see , go onpolitical sne comedic 0:01:17.4 (?)in we’veYeah. 0:01:35.8 Latino(?) prizes ,unif , ydone forthem, 0:01:53.3 doomsday/(?)And it would (break)No. no.

Rimpoche: 0:09:35.4 (?)

Robert: Butter sculptures in the Mon Lam. Am I right? Yes. Three or four stories high. In the time of Tsongkhapa. In the fourteenth. 1409 is when Mon Lam. Yeah. Mon Lam started but.

Rimpoche: (?)

Robert: Yes. But I. I understand from the 0:09:58.7 (?) the Fifth Dalai Lama that he started a particular competition. And particularly organized and thematized the making of these things, so as to make it a kind of a national competition. Sort of like the Rose Bowl or the Macey’s day parade. As I understand. Why are you laughing?

Rimpoche: 0:10:14.2 (?)

Robert: No, no. This is the Mon Lam parade of the butter sculptures competition. What is the problem, Rimpoche? What is?

Rimpoche: No problem.

Robert: :So, Ok. Then. So, he reigned anyway, for the spiritual and began to build the Potala. Then he died in 1682 and his death was concealed from the Tibetan people for some time by his Regent. Someone named Desi Sangye Gyatso who was also a great figure and a great organizer of the Tibetan government, the Tibetan culture. But what we can basically see that he did during this time was, he made a great effort to actually sort of organize the Tibetan national culture around the monastic institutions and around the Dalai Lama’s government. And he did a tremendous job at it. And it’s what’s most interesting is that of course, as you know, the seventeenth century was a time when all modern nations were sort of organized. Especially in Europe and so on. Even the Manchu Emperor. This is the same period when the Manchu dynasty had come into power in China. And the Manchus set about with this whole sort of system of theatre and symbolism and propaganda and diplomatic activities. Tried to create a large empire that would unite the Chinese people, the Mongolian people, the Manchu people and then towards the beginning of the eighteenth century they began to try to like involve the Tibetan people. In their original union and idea they did not have the Tibetan people. But they needed the Tibetan people ultimately to try to control the Mongols. Which is why the Manchus made an effort to respect the Tibetans. Which is why the first Manchu Emperor greeted the Fifth Dalai Lama on equal terms.

0:11:59.0 The Chinese pretend that the Fifth Dalai Lama went to pay tribute to the Manchu Emperor, but that is false. At that time, the Fifth Dalai Lama was much more powerful than the Shunzi, as his name was called. The Shunzi Manchu Emperor, which he visited in 1652. And the Shunzi Emperor came out of Beijing and met the Fifth Dalai Lama well out into the country and escorted him. Which is very important in Asian diplomatic ritual. 0:12:20.4 (?)Symmetry, in Asian symmetry. Tradition and like. In fact, when in Asian symmetry, tradition is everything. When the Dalai Lama would great a Chinese guy or when they would introduce, they would spend three months debating the protocol. And who would sit where and how high the seat would be. Not at all an insignificant matter. In fact, in those cultures, it is that kind of thing that is more important than written documents and treaties. It’s like where you sit and who goes and does what. And it takes them months. So, when the thirteenth Dalai Lama went to visit the last Manchu Emperor, it took six months of negotiations about how they would; who would come in where and who would sit and talk and what. And they went back to the records of the Fifth Dalai Lama’s meeting with the First Manchu Emperor. Just sort of and debated and it was a tremendous problem. Much worse than missiles, you know. Where you were going to sit. So, in that time though the Fifth Dalai Lama was completely the equal. Actually, he was the superior. And in fact, the Manchu Emperor was applying to the Fifth Dalai Lama. Basically what that meeting was about. So that that first Manchu Emperor was applying to the Fifth Dalai Lama for legitimacy. Because the Manchus had just come into North China. They had not yet destroyed the Ming in South China. And they knew the very well, that if any Mongolian tribe in large numbers began to go against the Manchus from the flank, while they were trying to deal with the Ming in front, they’d be finished. And the only way they could gain legitimacy with the Mongols was by having the blessing of the Dalai Lama, who was respected by the Mongols. And so, the Dalai Lama definitely, the shoe was on the Tibetan’s foot. In fact, even though the Dalai Lama had no army at all. Because of the presence of the Mongols, the shoe was totally on the Tibetan foot. So, when you read in Chinese propaganda about how the Fifth Dalai Lama went down and paid tribute to the Manchus, that’s a total lie. Totally fake. It’s the Manchus who applied to the Fifth Dalai Lama for their blessing. For his blessing at that time. That’s 1652, was the time of that famous meeting. And because to be conferred on him the blessing of “You are the reincarnation of Altan Khan. You are the reincarnation of Kublai. You are the new person to respect sort of unity and peace in Central Asia and in China. Over China.” This was the absolute thing. And actually I have a theory which I have not yet tracked down. But the original name of the Manchus was not Manchu. Manchu. The original name of the Manchus was kim. Not, yeah, kim. No. That’s not right. I’m sorry. I forgotten it. But in the Manchurian language it is another name. It is not Manchu.

0:14:51.3 And nobody knows why they call themselves Manchu. And I haven’t been able to find this in a document. But I feel quite sure that they called themselves Manchus and associate themselves with Manjushri, who was known as the bodhisattva who was the protector of China. And that is actually the reason why they call themselves Manchu. Because once they were called Manchus, you know Mongolians have a sort of a simple-minded level of history, you know. If your name happens to by accident some Tibetan name or Buddha, they think you are that. (laughs) Really, if your name happens to be. They do. They think, “Oh. Manchu. You must be Manjushri. Right.” Anyway, at the end of the Dalai Lama’s time, then there was a few problems because of the concealing of his death. The Sixth Dalai Lama was a beatnik, kind of hippie type who fooled around and refused to be a monk. 0:15:39.1 (?)Rimpoche, collects good smiles and girls(?). Excellent. Sixth Dalai Lama. It’s very interesting. It’s like an irony. It’s like a kind of showing something. Because the Fifth Dalai Lama has done this fantastic organization and fantastic building, and everything was very organized. So, the Sixth then decides he’s not going to. Of course, this is the later pious historians say, “Well. Because the Sangye Gyatso had to hide the Fifth Dalai Lama’s death. So, the Sixth Dalai Lama was not brought up in the formal way of bringing up an incarnation, but was sort of left to his own devices. He therefore remained a layman through his teens and he kind of like got into like fooling around. You know, he played pinball. He kind of got into like. He was too unserious. So, that’s why he then was ruined. He didn’t become a pious and virtuous Dalai Lama.” In my opinion, the Sixth Dalai Lama was a great adept who was precisely, in a way, showing that this kind of organization is not the be all and the end all of everything. It’s good. It’s useful. It can be helpful. But he wanted to show sort of you. It was like a dialectic. He wanted to deconstruct it in a way. So, he refused to sort of adopt it. He refused to really occupy the position created by the Fifth Dalai Lama. Because he refused to be a monk and he was a big playboy. He ran around, chased girls around Lhasa. He wrote poems, drank wine. Of course, he is. He was an adept. But this behavior made the sort of pious puritanical Buddhists mad. Particularly the Mongolians. And this one Mongolian, Lha-bzang Khan came in and took over the country and deposed the Sixth Dalai Lama. And there was a lot of problems which finally had to be resolved by pulling in a Manchu army, which came in the beginning of the eighteenth century. And this Manchu army got rid of the Mongols, who had usurped power for a while. And there was a new succession problem. But anyway, finally the Seventh Dalai Lama got in. But the Seventh Dalai Lama therefore was not able to really operate the Tibetan government as it had been designed by the Fifth Dalai Lama and Desi Sangye Gyatso. Because of this interruption by both the Mongols and the Manchus.

0:17:38.9 So, then indeed. But he did. He still ran it. He’s the one who invented the cabinet. I believe. Am I right, Rimpoche? Kashag. He invented the cabinets because. The Seventh Dalai Lama. Because he didn’t want to be bothered with affairs of state. He was not sort of an organizer the way the Fifth Dalai Lama was. He was pretty much of a writer. The Seventh Dalai Lama. He wrote beautiful work. Glenn Mullin has a nice anthology of the writings of the Seventh Dalai Lama, that you can read. And. But he had a very glorious reign because of his dharma teaching. He also invented the cabinet parliament system in Tibet. Then, after the Seventh Dalai Lama, they don’t. The subsequent ones. None of them. During that eighteenth century when the Seventh Dalai Lama was there. My analysis of this. Some of this may be controversial. But my analysis is that, because the Manchus no longer were so afraid of the Mongols, there was a climactic battle at the end of seventeenth century. Where the Kangxi Emperor, as his name was called, defeated the Mongolian Galdan, from the western Mongols and the Mongol power was kind of disunited and the Manchus no longer were worried about after the reign of the Kangxi Emperor. So, during the time of the Yongzheng Emperor, which is the end of the seventeenth century until 1835. And then. I mean, I’m sorry. End of the seventeenth century until 1735. And then from that time until the end of the eighteenth century, which is the reign of the great Qianlong Emperor, who was in a way the flowering or the greatest of the Manchu Emperors. They were no longer afraid of the Mongols particularly. The Manchus. And so, once they were no longer afraid of the Mongols, they began to treat Tibet less respectfully. And they began to interfere more in Tibet. And in my opinion, they probably began to sort of poison off the Dalai Lamas, because the way the Fifth Dalai Lama had setup the system in Tibet, it only operated effectively with a very powerful Dalai Lama figure in its center, to personally operate. And so, it’s like a kind of a control cockpit or something system that they had there. And you had to have a powerful Dalai Lama. And in order to get a powerful Dalai Lama, Dalai Lama is not powerful until they are in their thirties, mid-thirties. Because there is so much to learn. They have to learn all their own studies. They have to learn their histories They have to learn all the country’s mandalas and so forth.. They have to take retreats and then finally. And they have to gain some world experience. Then finally in their mid and late thirties they really begin to be able to operate sort of that culture. Or you know the sort of the mandala designed; the political, religious, historical mandala designed by, magical mandala designed by the Fifth Dalai Lama. Robert: Come on. Little audience. Little. Little group participation here, if you have anything to say.

0:20:09.1 And none of the. From the Seventh. After the Seventh Dalai Lama, none of the later Dalai Lamas really lived long enough to really run the country. So, it was always run by regents. And there was influence from various Manchu intrigues. And there was a lot of. So, Tibet became smothered a little bit, in my opinion, by the Manchus during the late eighteenth and throughout the nineteenth century. And what the nature, the notion that we get from Tibet of, when the Westerners began to go there in larger numbers. About Tibet as isolationist. Tibet as a little bit stagnant. You know. Tibet as sort of unaware of what was happening outside. This sort of thing. Really did happen in the nineteen, the late eighteenth and the nineteenth century. And because the reason being. Not that Tibet. Tibet, always before that had been involved with world politics. The Tibetan lamas had been peacemakers in Mongolia. They’ve been missionaries and gone to China. They’d gone there. They were involved in Nepal. They would go even back to India when they could for pilgrimage and so forth and they were highly aware of what was going on. But the Manchus by that time were weakened. They were an empire that had no longer any expanding ideas. They were just sort of happily becoming decadent in China. They forgot about their Manchu roots. They even stopped going to their own capital of 0:21:26.4 (je hal?) which was the real Manchu capital outside of China, that their ancestors had established in order to prevent the descendants from becoming completely Chinese. And they stopped doing that. So, then they just left. They didn’t want to have to garrison Tibet and deal with Tibet. They also didn’t want the Russians or British or anybody else to come and. Nepalese to come into Tibet. So, they thought the safest thing was to keep Tibet, sort of a backward buffer area. And try to prevent other people from getting there. And prevent the Tibetans from making independent relationships with other people. So, this whole business which was then carried on by the British in the twentieth century of keeping Tibet as sort of backwards, unrelated to anybody else. Buffer zone as they call it. And now by the whole world; it’s sort of being used that way. This really was a policy of the Manchus. They began it in the nineteenth century. So, this then brings us sort of to the time when Tibet was becoming decadent and stagnant. No Dalai Lama has gone over twenty-five years of age for a hundred years. And suddenly a new guy comes on the throne. And now, Rimpoche, I turn over to you. Thirteenth Dalai Lama.

0:22:36.2 Well, we don’t have much time. If you have any particular questions about,

Rimpoche: need your questions.

(could not get most of this, sorry!!!)Robert: you can ask. Do you have any questions or any particular point about anything in that whole era. ????Yes. I believe myself that there maybe somewhere …suspicion about nine to ten particular odd things. It’s not known too well. But???? Nobody is taking seriously.??? Seems to me a question of ???. The point is even though basically it is manipulated by the monks. The way system alone is designed?? Culture. And the modern.??? It was designed to not only democratic way, but it was an autocratic way. Therefore it was dependent upon a fully trained autocrat to operate.???? Religion itself…consummate.??? So, they just had to kill this person off before they got old enough to really know what was happening. And they did it????Yes. They did have some power, but they never had any level of power as the fully enthroned, fully grown Dalai Lama. If any of you have met the present Dalai Lama in India, back when they first came out???. They had originally met him around ??? You notice Tibet is simpler.?? ?. Twenty-nine. I think he was about. Twenty-eight when I first met him. He was a nice young lama. ????But he could not have had really impressed???? The way that he does now. Now, he’s like????he’s like an energy field. In those days he was like a ???. around him, sort of dynamo of personal charisma was nothing like it is today. ???? . dark quality. And people are expecting to react with him in a certain way. I’ve seen meetings where people expected him to be a certain way, but when he came they had to greet him a different way, because he just had this presence. So, when you have someone like that in charge of Tibetan culture then you get something done. You don’t get?? Thirteenth Dalai Lama. On we go.

0:25:35.1 Rimpoche: You sure?

Robert: I’m not sure.

0:25:40.4 Rimpoche: Ok. Now, I’m not going to go back at all. And .

Robert: ??? Tomorrow would be good.

Rimpoche: I’m going to go with you. I’m going to, well now, doing.

Robert:…???

Rimpoche: I think

Robert: You can see

Rimpoche: maybe

Robert: Far as this.

Rimpoche: Tape and then it’s gone. Now 0:26:16.5 ???

Robert: That one. It’s longer

Rimpoche: Yeah. I’ll go this side.

Robert: I’ll work on this cord

Rimpoche: Yeah. 0:26:26.5 (Tibetan:..) You got that on your shoe. Thank you I know it’s the old one. 0:26:36.7 (Tibetan:…) So, as I said, I’m not going to go back at all about the. The events that have taken place between the Fifth Dalai Lama to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama. But somebody raised a question regarding the Regent. As far as the Regents are concerned, my opinion, during the earlier part of the Regents, Regent period, it was hard. Very hard at the end of the first Seventh Dalai Lama’s period. The Chinese have already appointed one chief called Amban up there. Those Ambans are, sort of very cleverly, they have presented towards Tibetan. It is sort of Chinese representative in case of difficulties the Tibetan faced to be consulted. And on the other hand, I think they have presented outside ward as, whatever they call it, you know. Some kind of officer in charge or whatever. In that sort of a double picture. They have presented in the, in the late seventeenth, when Seventh Dalai Lama. Later part of seventh Dalai Lama’s life itself. And when his cabinet’s established and since then onwards, this sort of thing going on. And but, what really had happened, during the later part of the Regents. Later part of Regents, some regents are very, very powerful. And so powerful so that, I mean, even to the extent of, you know, going, who is the really a ruler of Tibet. To that extent the Regents have definitely gone in the history. That was the historical fact.

0:28:56.7 Now, coming back on the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, I really don’t want to take much time. I’m going to go skip, very quickly, because as Professor had already presented, between the Dalai Lamas. I’m not sure whether they’d poisoned it or whatever had happened. Whatever the reason may be, from the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, and up to Twelfth Dalai Lama all passed away at very young age. Not necessarily getting poisoned. Not necessarily neither not being poisoned also. But I don’t want to go into that detail anyway. So, what happened it’s said, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama was recovered. His reincarnation was recovered in the Southern Tibet, area called Thakpo. And Thirteenth Dalai Lama is. The family is definitely not, neither aristocracy family, nor a wealthy business house. It is a small little house where he had born and a lot of great omens and so and forth. And how they had found Thirteenth Dalai Lama and all this. There are tremendous details; history there. But I would like to say that, but one thing I’d like to mention it here. It is very interesting, and this is not written anywhere. It is not even the biography or anything. It is told, the story is relayed to me by late, His Holiness 0:30:47.5 Song(?) Rimpoche. Has relayed that story to me. And what really had happened is the great; the holy lake in Tibet has froze the area where the Thirteenth Dalai Lama has taken the rebirth. 0:31:03.3 and then selected a number of missions, as you read the Fourteenth Dalai Lama’s My Land and My People. And it is the division of the group going here and there and the Thirteenth; the same thing had been repeated for the Thirteenth Dalai Lama in that period.

0:31:18.9 But the person who’s going to the south happens to be one of the; one incarnate lama, I forget his name. Whoever. And. Then he was accompanied by one of the ex, the present abbot of the, at that time, the present abbot of Gyuto, upper Tantric College. Then some monks going on and they have crossed a certain mountain pass and they saw this village. A totally as though they have already seen it, somewhere. And when they started thinking, it was the instruction given by the, then Regent. And you’ll find area like this and land like this and mountains like this and here and here and here and here you go. And you’ll find this. Incidentally, the Regent happens to be Demo.

Robert: Demo Regent

Rimpoche: Yeah. It is Demo Regent.

Robert: That speaks to his power

Rimpoche: So, that happens to be that. And so, they had seen that and then they’re sort of going through. They looked everywhere, but they didn’t find any village at all. So, they sort of went the whole day. According to Song Rimpoche. They went the whole day and they got tired. And they said “Look.” They said, “Somehow we made a mistake.” About to go back. About time. About that time, they decided to go back. And they’re really going back. And they sort of, you know, they ate there, they built(?), their 0:32:56.3 goat/cold and about to go back. And they go to ride the horse. Suddenly they saw a lady with a full dressed up. You know, with all ornaments and standing there somewhere on the sort of other side of the mountain at one little, sort of point. The lady is standing like that. They saw and they said, “There’s a lady there.” When they say, “A woman there, there must be a village, otherwise how can there be a woman?” But they started. They started looking. So, they started looking. And that lady started going like this, saying, sort of indicating, “Come here.” You know. So, then they said, “Oh, there’s something. Let’s go.” So, they sort of turning back. They went down. And they; there’s no trace of lady. Nothing. Not even a village. Nothing. He said, “Now, what happened?” Sort of. Don’t got next to her. “What happened?” And they said “Ok now. Let’s go back.” And when they about to turn back, they saw another lady there. They saw another lady there. They said. They said, “It must be making mistake. Did you see? Did you see?” Everybody said they see it. And then they. Then the following lady. She walked a little bit down. And they sort of followed step and then suddenly passed through a little place, mountain 0:34:09.8 lha gyema(???). She disappeared. Again. No more. Then they said, “Hey. It must be something. Somebody telling us something else. So, let us not go back. Let us go through that gorge. Let’s go down.”

0:34:23.2 So, they went down. And they went down and down and down and nothing. No. I mean, it is a long, long, in the mountain back. And they are going on the horses and walking. Just no. No plane or no car. It really take long time to go through. Right? So, finally they said, “Well, we went a whole day and then now the second day and all this. Now this. No place. Anything. So, anyway, now, even they go back there’s no use. Might well as go through it and see where we reach it.” No maps in Tibet. Ok. We don’t have; not good maps available. So, no idea where you’re going. And you don’t have even guide around. So, that’s how this difficulty comes. So, finally, when they went down and they saw a village. And behind the village, the same old lady, with all the dresses, they see her standing there again. And she’s sort of, looking like this and pointing a finger down here like that. Sort of, that is the house where the Thirteenth Dalai Lama has really born. And they have seen it. And that’s what they really considered. A very significant in the Thirteenth Dalai Lama’s recognition. However, it is not recorded. It is not in the biography. It is not written. And this is one of the unwritten whispering stories that they pass through ear. Mouth to ear. That’s how I’m passing through here today. Ok. With this, they have recognized undoubtedly, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama. When they, sometime, there are doubtful. In the case of doubtful, then they wrote the name and there are a lot of systems there. So, I will not go into this detail. So, undoubtfully recognized the Thirteenth Dalai Lama and brought him up, educated and finally become a very, very, powerful Dalai Lama. He lived. He lived up to the age of fifty-eight, if I remember correctly. Is it?

Robert: 1876 to 1933. Fifty-eight.

Rimpoche: Ok. So. And that he lived there. And during his lifetime, though it was powerful, it has not been easy at all. Tibet went through a tremendous problem. First, he had that Younghusband expedition of 1904. Because these dates may be wrong. I’m really bad on that, on those dates. Ok? So, please correct me.

Robert: 1904. It’s right.

0:37:17.9 Rimpoche: (laughs) And then, during that period, they have to run away from Tibet. If you, in doubt. These are documented in. These are documented in the English language. So, you can read all these books. He has to go and run away to China. And, as professor has mentioned that it took six months for Dalai Lama to meet the Chinese Emperor. And there are a lot of lot. Lot of things there. So, I will not go into detail whatever happens there. He even went into the Mongolia. Not only China and Mongolia, the Mongolian capital, Dha Khuree. Now it’s Ulaanbaatar. Nowadays. At that time it’s Dha Khuree. He went into the Mongolia also. And the Mongolia there’s another great lama, who is just like the Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama for Tibet. They have a Mongolia. It is the 0:38:19.6 (Halhi?) Jebtsundamba. Tibetans call Kyakhta (?) Jebtsundamba, but it’s Mongols call Halhi(?) Jebtsundamba. Right?

Robert: What you said, Both lama..

Rimpoche: So, he is the real sort of, you know powerful, call it lama, king, again and that sort of Mongolian heir. The Thirteenth Dalai Lama has a very good relation with him and the Rabtan also with him. The fourth and all this. And finally play the, when the British, decided. What really had happened. The lord Curzon in Calcutta had decided to invade Tibet. Right? To invade to Tibet. And to see what they’re worried whether the Russians are coming up there or whether the Chinese are coming up there. So, that’s what they really want to see is that no Russian or the Chinese power come on to Tibet. That is the pure British motive. And then, when the Tibetans are not really sort of 0:39:27.6 idolizing(?) the British properly as they wanted. They threatened and finally they even sort of marched into Tibet in 1904. Had British stayed in Tibet and utilized as their colonial, whatever they call it, as they did it for India and almost any other, lot of other places, it would have been far better off for the Tibetans today. But unfortunately, it is too expensive for Britain to maintain such a territory, where there is no any incoming at all for the British treasury. So, it would be unnecessary expenses for the Britain. So, therefore, they really wanted to go up there and make a treaty and bound Tibetans into certain kind of agreement where the British always have something to tell them. Something to guide them. Something to You know. You know how; how you are. (laughs)

0:40:42.2 And that’s why really they did it. And that’s the whole purpose of the Younghusband expedition. They reach up to Lhasa. The Dalai Lama and the cabinet’s gone. They couldn’t find anybody to fight with them. Even to talk to. Finally, if you read the Younghusband expedition, you’ll just finally you found somebody who can talk with us and there is the Regent. But some Regent offer did not come out and they found a lot of difficulties. Anyway, finally it was shared, agreed not to 0:41:12.6walk/work through Tibet and they will set up some kind of a trade agent at a place called 0:41:22.3 Gyantse and set up some sort of communication. Operate and certain whatever the British wanted anyway. Sort of they signed treaty and agreement and with that the Dalai Lama would be able to return to Lhasa his capital, after spending two years. Now the moment he returned to Lhasa; he had another attack from behind one of the Chinese warlords. And so, he has to escape to India again. He had to escape to India. And he wouldn’t stay very long there. He had to escape to India and spend about think about three or four,

Robert: Two years.

Rimpoche: two years.

Robert: Two and a half years

Rimpoche: Two and a half years in Darjeeling. He has to stay there. So, the Dalai Lama’s becoming a refugee in India, not for the first time in history, when this Fourteenth Dalai Lama came here. In the. Yeah. I think Thirteenth Dalai Lama was the first in the Dalai Lama’s administration over Tibet. So, during that period he has to escape into India. And during that period, they actually, the trouble in China started. The trouble in China started and there’s no reinforcement coming to those occupiers, sort of occupying trip or whatever you call it. And finally, it also opened up very much of the Tibetan administration people towards outside; coming over to India two years. Really helped them and gave them very good open idea of sort of limited opening. Whatever they did. The idea was gained there.

0:43:18.8 They also gained one important idea is establishment of army. Until then there is no army in Tibet. There is a very, very, sort of, you know, whenever army is needed they called the aristocratic family and they produced a number. Sometimes they produced twenty. Sometimes they produced two hundred. Sometimes they produced some kind of number. They had to produce. That was the system. And in order to prove this, I have to emphasize a little bit. Because in continuation of our last weeks’ argument. In order to prove that, every year during the first month of the Tibetan calendar, there is a Monlam festival there where there is all the monks gathered together in Lhasa and they sort of really prayed there. And each one of those families has to produce this representing the army, whoever responsible, where people who are responsible for two hundred, have to produce twenty. People who are responsible for twenty have to produce two. Sort of army’s a man, whole armed with guns and knives and all this old world, old style of all these things. Has to produce until 1958. So, that why I try to argue with there. The Fifth Dalai Lama did not take away the army. Because the army is still then in function. It is only the Thirteenth Dalai Lama who really established a small regiment of thing. So, he had opened for that. He’s also opened for the education of western education and information, communication and all this he picked it up in India and also then brought over to the Tibet. When he returned to Tibet by 1912. Right? And he returned to Tibet and then he declared independence of Tibet after returning from India. For staying two years. He declared that, “I, the Dalai Lama, is all here on my seat of the policy of.” Blah, blah, blah. All these documents are still available. And of course, it was not really today’s legal made by a lot of lawyers, did not draft that. So, you can. If you argue, you can find faults in there, and all this and that. But according to the Tibetan opinion, according to the Dalai Lama’s opinion, according to the Tibetan sort of general public’s opinion, it is the declared .I’m talking about today. I’m not talking about today’s opinion. I’m talking about, at that time opinion. They really declared independence of Tibet.

0:46:12.0 So, I mean, if you look at in there. “I’m here. Now in the peace, there is no attack from the East or the West. And everybody wherever, I have very good relations. Very kind of the lord of British and very kind of the Chinese Emperor.” And this and that. And this and that and all these things and he had declared that. Since then, until his death. That is 1933. Until then, Tibet really remains as independent as far as Tibetans are concerned. We make our own decisions. We. I mean, the Chinese may request us something to do. We may or may not oblige. We do make our own decisions. That’s what really. I mean. Don’t think of today’s tech, sort of technical term. But Tibetans are concerned, that is what had really happened. And that they did it. British on the other hand, was very clever and telling Tibetans, “How great you are! You’re independent. How wonderful! We accept this and this and that.” On the other hand, they also called Tibetans de facto government. De facto government in the sense, because the British, without telling the Tibetans. Tibetans don’t read newspapers. Have no idea what’s happening outside. Without telling Tibetans, they say, “Well. We accept Tibet as part of China and but China has no control over it. So, therefore it’s a de facto government.” So, that’s what the British play over Tibet. And that been going on. That’s the British purpose. British interests. Because as long as the officially they accept Tibet as a part of China. The China is happy. The China is not going to complain. And as long as they keep the Tibetans out, telling them, “Hey, you are independent. You don’t know. You don’t want to be pushed by the Chinese. You don’t want to be pushed by the Russians. You don’t want this. You don’t want this. If you want weapons, we give you. We give you old, old guns, you know. Some few, few, few, few hundred old guns. And brought in communication system, like where you can, you know sort of this old-style telephone. Where you can’t hear half. Cannot hear. Maybe some broken pieces. Three or four pieces. Here is communication. Here is the weapon. Here is everything We are behind you.” Blah. Blah, blah. So, that way, the British has whole interest. No. Look at this. Really. I mean, the British really setup the whole interest of the British, where they can keep all the superpowers away from them. Not superpowers, but neighbor powers away from Tibet. Russia and China. They don’t want Chinese up there for sure. That’s why they’re telling Tibet’s a part of China. As long as Britain says Tibet’s part of China, China is happy.

0:49:20.3 So, therefore Chinese don’t want to come up. This is how British stopped China coming to Tibet. As long as, as well as, they keep the Tibetans out by feeding this little thing here and there. And then present Dalai Lama emphasized for education. So, the British said, “Oh yes. We give you education. To how many people? What would you like to do? Have it. Great. Ok. Let’s us. We will like to educate eleven people. What about that? (claps) Ok.” That is the whole British education for Tibet. Even it’s eleven people. Eleven kids. They took to London. And gave, I think eleven, what had happened? Even the eleven turned down and become six. I’ve seen the photographs where the six kids are standing there in London. And present Dalai Lama sent one 0:50:15.6 (???) Tibetan official, called, Lungshar, as a teacher with a promotion, with them to London. And the Lungshar is a very sort of. I don’t know. Very political minded. And very inquisitive and so he tried to, sort of, contact here and there and meeting a lot of people. So, the British removed him from London and put him in some place, somewhere in northern and said. I read all these memos they write. British you know, the British, in between the India office and the British foreign office and all this, they have all these different memos going on, one after the another. Sort of Lungshar tried to contact the Germans. And Lungshar tried to contact Japanese. They thought, “Wait. This is dangerous man. Remove him out of the contact.” And then they write a letter to Dalai Lama and telling “He’s such a terrible man. And this great for the Tibet and this and that. And remove him and send a new man and all this.” Dalai Lama kept on saying, “I have no better man to send than him.” He sort of defend him; behind him. And the British didn’t like it. Finally, they took some money to him and said, “Hey, If you stay away, we will give you a salary. And salary will be much better and bigger. We will give you in gold.” And all this. All this are very big thing going on. And finally, they found Lungshar has gone. He has disappeared. He’s disappeared. And the British are very worried. “Where did he go? What happened? What happened? What happened? “ And so, actually he left for Germany. He went for Germany. And they supported. The British people had come and picked hm up in Humboldt before Lungshar is there. (laughs)

0:52:14.9 Anyway, all this thing happened during the Thirteenth Dalai Lama’s period. And now I’ve been, sort of asked by the representative here to move up to the Fourteenth Dalai Lama and up to today, up to rush through. So, I will just say, briefly do that. Ok? So, just before, a year before, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama died, and he had wrote a. What do we call it? A letter of will, we call it. Will.

Robert: Wheel I think

Rimpoche: Da. Thank you. He wrote that. And in that he had mentioned very carefully. He said, “Until now, I had been able to manage things and with difficulties here and there and all this we’ve been able to punish that. However, if the people are not careful in the future and all these problems in the world in general and particularly the communist problem is going to be very bad. And told, take the even in the Mongolia as an example. And that will be bound to happen in Tibet, if you are not careful.” And that was, he had written in black and white and distributed throughout Tibet. A year before he died. And he passed away the next year and then of course the Regent. Traditionally, the Tibetan Regent come from four high incarnate lamas. And so, at that period, fit to be Regent was the Reting, only. Only Reting Rimpoche is available. He was twenty-two years old. And they select. They picked Reting Rimpoche’s name. And then there is one famous lama at that time. And a normal system is what they normally do is; they ask group of lamas, high incarnate lamas who had been Regents before or who are in the category of Regency. And there are four or five only. So originally four, and later 0:54:53.1 drepu(?) and drepu(?) and timbaling(?) was added up . And so it become sort of drepu(?) and Reting added up. So, it becomes five. So, out of five, whoever eligible they had picked up for as candidate. In addition to that, they will pick up one outstanding incarnate lama, whoever maybe at that time. At that time it happens to be 0:55:19.1 Phun ba cho(?). And they have Reting, 0:55:22.3 phun ba ho(?) and plus Ganden Tripa. Plus Ganden Tripa.

0:55:28.5 They put it up because there is one very famous Ganden Tripa at that time called 0:55:34.8 (duo chin ma den ma chopa) and he refused to be in the candicacy. So, so they picked it up the Ganden Tripa. The present Ganden Tripa at that time. I think 0:55:44.8 Minya an(?) was one. So, three of them. They put their names in a rolled ball(?). They put the. They put their names written in paper and put them in the.

Robert: Ball of dough

Rimpoche: What? What did you say?

Robert: Ball of dough

Rimpoche: Ball of dough. Ok. And they rolled this with the prayers. And they do a lot of prayers. And it was rolled in the Potala Palace. Where the. Where the. The, the important image, which was really brought out of the Avalokiteshvara three which we talked long time back. So, that in front of that image. In the presence of all this government officials, monastery representatives and representative of the artist. Tibet is. Another thing is big recognition for the artists, good craftsperson. Either you are art; drawing or carpenter or you’re smith, you know gold or ironsmith. They have a representation in general government assemblage with the right who are outstanding one. So, with their representatives, all of them, in their presence they have wrote the name. And this ex Ganden Tri Rimpoche, 0:57:17.1 (Minyak pema chu Jetsun Champa Chodrag) who happens to be very famous at that time. He had been requested to throw the thing. And he is a funny person. He told them, “Alright, if I wrote the name,” he said, “Whatever falls out, I’m going to open it up straight away. I’m going to read loud, as loud as I can. Would that be acceptable to you? Particularly the big administrators. If that’s not acceptable to you, I won’t throw it.” That’s what he said. What happens is sometimes, something wrong, doesn’t come thrown and then they, they can manipulate it, you know. So, he doesn’t want to do that. So, he said, “I’m going to read it as loud as possible.” So, they said, all everybody has to say, ok, ok. You know what I mean there. Otherwise, you’re going to be. You’re going to be the corrupted one who’s going to say no.

0:58:07.9 So, he rolled in them and Reting’s name popped it up. And he marked one, put it back and rolled it again, popped it up. He marked again. Rolled it three times. And his name has popped up three times. And then he opened it. It happens to be Reting whose only twenty-two years; a kid. Twenty-two years of age. So, then the Reting came in power. And, well, no doubt, great personality. Again, manifestations of Avalokiteshvara. Reincarnation of 0:58:45.5 Zong Tenpa(?). And all this. A great person, no doubt. However, he was very young, in my opinion, to run the whole country. And particularly at that period. It was 1933. It was a period where there’s big movements going on. And Reting Rimpoche, through his, whatever they call it. His lack of fortune or spiritual touch or magical power or whatever it is. But Tibet tremendously had peaceful period. No disturbance. No problem. Beautiful crops. Plenty of food. Everything so nice and wonderful. It is during his period alone. That had happened. However, he himself is, in my personal opinion, very young and like to be very jolly person. And couldn’t really bother much about the administration of the state at all. Practically at all. I mean, he’s maybe riding a horse or playing; playing mahjong, or playing gambling this thing. Or competition with arrow shootings or the flying kites or all sorts of things. He did it. And that’s a big problem. You know, really. That’s what had happened. But one very important contribution we can never sort of looked out. We must acknowledge Reting’s contribution, is the rebuilding of the great monasteries, which are decaying, falling down. Samye and all this important. That is traditional Jetsun Tsongkhapa’s places are totally rebuilt during the Reting period. And the most important he had selected unmistakable reincarnation of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama. The present, Fourteenth Dalai Lama is unmistakable, he had selected. And with the great negotiations, present Dalai Lama, His Holiness was born in the area, which is the, at that time, is under 1:01:19.4 (Mao Fu Bang sling??) and the Chinese administration there.

1:01:25.0 And Reting administration from Tibet took a great skill and sort of. I mean, if you read His Holiness’s My Land and My People, it mentioned that very detailly. Reting administration really took a great deal of skill how to get His Holiness out of the Chinese administrative area. And not declaring it to be; really the Dalai Lama which they know truly. Truly they know. And the word, if you read it, Dalai Lama’s by, My Land and My People, you’ll find that Reting found that word, letters. AH KA PA. And no one really knew what those words are, except Reting himself. No one know. They kept secret, totally. From his cabinet. From his own personal staff. From everybody. Even some people got annoyed with the Reting. And knowing because thinking that, he’s really doing something, you know, nothing. But he knew exactly what AH stands for. What KA stands for. What AH, MA, everything. And to prove this, the person who went down to select the Dalai Lama. The incarnate lama who was Kewtsang Rimpoche. The Reting Rimpoche told him personally. He told him, “Look. I have great hopes that you will definitely find.” He said, “You send so many lamas round, so many officials, so many parties going around. One of us should find,” He said, “No. You.” He said, “Why?” He said, “Think about KA AH, MA. AH, Amdo. KA, Kumbum.” And all this. He had said that much. He sort of; he really sort of shocked. And he had shared that with other people who are in their party. That Reting Rimpoche really told him, even before he’s going down. So, which was again told me, because I studied Tibetan history. Particularly modern history. So, which as, which I came to know from about, you know, the late 1:03:43.4 Han Ken Jo(?) in Nepal. Kenjo Losang Gyatsen (?). He was the party. He was the servant of one of the persons who is going there. So, later when they found the Dalai Lama over there, unmistakable, and he had shared that with all his party people. And they knew, that Reting knew. And the to cross top of then again, the Gomo Rimpoche, late Gomo Rimpoche had also told by Reting Rimpoche that “Yah. This is the one.”

1:04:16.2 Because Reting knew it and Reting wanted to consult with some oracle. And none of the oracles will come out with the clear statement. And there is oracle called 1:04:28.3 Turu Jenpa(?), from Khenpo(?) area, which belongs to the Gomo Rimpoche monastery. And Reting consulted him again and again and again and finally told him, “Are you sure what I think is right. If not, then you will be in trouble.” This, this, this, this. And finally, he said, “I guarantee. And whatever you are thinking is right.” So, Turu Jenpa(?) has Reting has special connection with, because the area is together. There are a lot of stories. I will not go into detail. So, the Reting Rimpoche really, Reting administrations, the biggest service to Tibet is the founding of the Dalai Lama and rebuilding of the monastery. And then at the time of the Dalai Lama, becoming a monk, a year before that, Reting Rimpoche resigned from the, from the Regentship. And now there’s a lot of things. I will not go into detail, why and what for and all this. Finally, Taktra Rimpoche, The Taktra who was Junior Tutor to His Holiness at that time and very, very serious old learned 1:05:52.3 fan(?), scholar, who was forced to take over by Reting Rimpoche. He totally refused. He said, “I’m not person. I’m simple monk who doesn’t even eat in the afternoon, who doesn’t even chat with anybody, just nothing. Old.” And he said, “I’m the wrong person.” But Reting Rimpoche forced. This is true fact. As a student of history, I’m telling you. True fact. Reting Rimpoche forced him to take over. If you’re not going to take over, at least for three years. So Taktra accepted the responsibility of the Regent for three years. And even the Tibetan Assembly has no business. You know, normally the assembly selects and all these things happen. You know, Reting Rimpoche told assembly, “I have selected Taktra Rimpoche to be the next Regent.” And the assembly accepted because of the. Number one: Reting administration is so powerful at that time no one will dare to say a single word against Reting Rimpoche. So powerful this Reting Rimpoche’s period. So powerful. And number two: Taktra Rimpoche’s very well respected, so that’s it. So, no more questions. So, they all went to Taktra and said, took over. Taktra said, “Alright, I agree to take over three years.” And that’s it. That’s what happened. Taktra administration came in power and Reting Rimpoche resigned, on the New Year’s Day. On Tibetan New Year’s Day. That day. I mean, it happened in, like you know, two days. Like that.

1:07:34.4 You know. Like that. So, then Taktra Administration has a tremendous problem now. Because. Tremendous problem they face. Ok. Taktra tried to do a lot , and a lot. A lot of good things. Taktra encountered with the British. Taktra encountered Chinese. Taktra encountered with internal problem and Tibet has very bad problem. Lot of illness and lot of troubles at that time. During Taktra administration. However, at about three years time and the people around Taktra Rimpoche, who is really managing up there, has become so 1:08:21.8 greatly/greedy in power and refused to resign from the Regentship. And the Reting couldn’t come back as Regent. And so, the internal power struggle is established in Tibet. And the really going cracking down between the two Regents, supported the government is really falling into part. And it was very, very unfortunate for the Tibet, because it was just after the World War II. And it was; it was at that period. It was World War II and to going on, ending and beginning, Taktra whatever he did with British, the Chinese. They could not do the totally stop all the efforts. If you look into the British file. If you look in the American file in Washington. If you look into the Chinese record you see it. There are a lot of constant efforts, day after day from Taktra administration towards the Britain, towards the United States, towards all these different areas. And suddenly everything stopped, as though nothing had happened. Just stopped. Even the letters are no reply. Nothing. It’s just stopped for years together. That is the internal struggle period. Power struggle internal. Terrible. It was so unfortunate for Tibet because it was bad time, Tibet would have really gained international recognition. However, it was blew it up by having internal power struggle. And then of course, the Chiang Kai-Shek’s national government in China has been great ally of the United States as well as the member of ally. The World War II Allies. And all this. Then after that it has become almost impossible for Tibet to gain really an international recognition of independence.

1:10:36.1 And then the Chiang Kai-Shek government has been shaking and dismantled by the Mao’s communist movement in China by 1947 or 48. And the Chinese communist have a very big eye on Tibet. Very big eye on Tibet. And the. I believe the idea. Actually, what happened is they had to struggle among the communist authorities whether they first go to Taiwan and capture the Chiang Kai-Shek’s power there. Or go to Tibet. In between this struggle the Russians at that time is the great ally of China. The great friend of China. And the Chinese, when came from Tibet used to. I remember this. Now. Now I remember. Ok? And now, they used to tell us the Russians are the 1:11:52.5 (Tibetan: rang zun….) That’s what they used to say. The person without having selfish interests. Total dedicated master. That’s what Chinese used to call the Russians. Dedicated master who has no selfish interests. Ok. They advised now personally to go over to Tibet first. Because Tie Bet is the place where there are lot of. What do you call this white, 1:12:24.9 (Tibetan: …) There’s a tremendous amount of the white metal, which is. Huh? Huh? 1:12:39.5 (??) Yeah, which is, they used some kind of weapon. That’s what the Russians really wanted. So, the Chinese owe too much money to the Russians at that time. So, what they really wanted to take. They wanted to take that from Tibet. That is the real interest of the Russians. And which is proved by the Chinese themselves now. If you read it in probably any old Chinese officer, they will tell you. Because first thing what the Russians did is of course, “You want Tibet, and we want that deep 1:13:10.0 those things(?) out and that will be useful to pay the Chinese back to the Russians.” And took too much. And that’s why China had broke with the Russians. Even to that extent. That is the real; one of the main purposes. Advice given. So, anyway Chinese invaded Tibet 1950 and 51. And in the year 1951. I mean, Tibet has no way to fight back the Chinese.

1:13:38.2 You know, as I’ve told you the British has given a few old guns here and there. But Taktra administration tried to go and get some more from the British and they said, “Alright, We’ll consider.” And then you know. If you read this British document, it is really a thoroughly bizarre. Totally bizarre. They have no idea. They write to each other, “Oh. We don’t. We should not give this much to the Tibetans. If they do so, they start quarreling with China. If they do so, the Chinese will come to us. And so, let’s stop. Give us. Give those Tibetans. Give some nice looking newly painted.” Painted. You know, the old weapons, painted. And they wrote in memo. Said, “Painted and give the ammunitions that doesn’t fit them.” And that’s what they did it. And the Tibetans started making guns in Tibet. And the poor things, you know they really don’t know how to make it and when they started making and the guns, two or three guns started to. Yeah. They did thing, explode, you know. So, they asked British opinion again. So, the British people write to them and said, the Tibetans 1:14:46.5 (??) Then the order comes from London and advice not to produce. So, any method. So, they go and say, “Well. There’s something wrong. Maybe technology is not perfect with you. Maybe not yet. So, I think it’s better you stop.” But they said. They said all this. So, that when they really, the Chinese invade Tibet, Tibetans have nothing. Really. I mean, you just have to carry this. And that also, the Tibetans have abandoned martial arts earlier because Tibetans are rough and tough person. So, they decided not to teach martial arts to the Tibetans, because it would be dangerous. So, it’s a couple of centuries ago that arts also gone. So, only this. This. You’ll go with that. So, what can you really stand? No way. Yes sir.

Audience: through that time

Rimpoche: I will accept that. That’s it

Audience:..???

Rimpoche: Ok. So, I don’t have much time. Really. Heinrich Harrer is. Heinrich. Heinrich Harrer is the. Heinrich Harrer is the war prisoner. The German. The British war prisoner put in. You have read Seven Years in Tibet, so it tells true story. It’s true story. And Heinrich Harrer is war prisoner. Came over to Tibet. That is only escape area. Whether Europe is going with bombs and destroy Tibet. Nothing is happening out there. So, he come up there and finally came to Tibet. Now I give a different account. A friend of mine saw Henrich Harrer in actional. Two of them There are two Germans. Middle of Lhasa. And they said, what he described to me. He said, “ A white man with a sort of red cheek and wearing a beggar’s clothes and sitting down in the middle of the Lhasa street. That’s what he described. He said, he saw it. White man sitting like this. And it is totally beggar’s clothes and no food. Nothing. Sitting there. Doesn’t know a word of Tibetan. And sitting there. People pass through laughing and smiling. And smiling and going through. And finally, this friend of mine, he name is 1:17:14.7 Shada. And Shada went back and go to chanodro or chan me(?). One of them who speak English. Who had come down from London after learning English. And front of them, he brought him there. And talked to him.

1:17:32.8 And when they started talking to him in English, they knew he had escaped from the thing and all this. And then the Tibetan government is almost thinking of sending him back. And what happens. There’s a famous chap called 1:17:48.5 faroun che (?). Faroun. And Faroun picked Henrich Harrer up and kept in his house. So, the Tibet government hesitated to do anything against faroun(?) because he is a funny fellow. He will say, to hell with you, probably. If the government says so. They sort of, you know, delayed that way. That is how really, he escaped sending him off from Tibet. He’s under the shadow of the Faroun(?). And he’d been able to stay there. And. And then I remember him as a kid, because he used to come and explain how the world is round. So, that’s what I remember. Anyway, and also he. And he built up. He put a lot of forest up. And took a lot of trees down. Central Tibet, trees are very rare at that time. So. Anyway and also, he had kept very close touch later with all the Tibetan top officials. And including His Holiness. And I do not know whether His Holiness consider him as a teacher, he claimed sometimes. Is it true or not? I have no idea. I am not the person to deny that, but I don’t think it is correct. However, he had contributed a lot to Tibet and as well as to His Holiness. You know, all things. He had did whatever he could. And Aufschnaiter, the other fellow has; make no noise. And has not written any book. But did great work. Did great deal of work. Worked very hard. And did really good job. And he later remained in Nepal. Worked for Nepal and he died in Nepal. Ok. Now, let me go back to my main point. So, at about that time, that His Holiness, when he was about two years or three years below the age, which normally Dalai Lama takes power. By the age of eighteen. And then there is a big trouble in Tibetan government. Within the government there is big trouble. One side is negotiating with the Chinese. One side, they’re not, don’t want to negotiate with Chinese. In 1947, I forgot, Tibet sent a trade delegation throughout the world. I mean, throughout the world. There’s a trade delegation been sent. Including Britain and the United States. If you read this American file here, it’s so funny. They don’t know what to do, what to; how to treat them. What to talk about it. So, they go and ask British what to do. And the British tells them, “Ok. Do this. Do this.” And then if you read the British letters, they say, “Don’t tell these Americans totally, because they do and we’ll be in trouble with Tibet later. So, let us release this much information to the Americans. So, let them do what they want.” I mean, it is open now. Thirty years later when you read it, it is very funny.

1:20:58.6 So, anyway, the Shakabpa, The person in New York today, living. And Shakabpa was the leader of the trade delegation at that time. And he came over to the United States. He’s another person who is hot-headed and giving so much trouble to the British as well as Americans. And the Chinese ambassador in Washington and the Shakabpa and if you read how they conducted state department. And the Chinese say, “Well, if he meets the president, the Chinese ambassador should be present, otherwise China will do this and this and blah, blah, blah.” And the Shakabpa; they talked to Shakabpa. Shakabpa says, “Well, I’m a Tibetan, came from Tibet government and representing Tibet and if I’m going to see the president of the United States, there is no reason why Chinese ambassador should be there. I’m not going to see the president with the Chinese ambassador.” He walked away. And then they try to patch him up. Again, all this thing and in between that, Chinese tell the state department something else. The Chinese minister from Nanking town, the American ambassador in Nanking. There are all sorts of things going on. And finally, American government told Shakabpa, “If you don’t see the. If you don’t want to go and see the president with the Chinese ambassador, we can not make you see the president.” And Shakabpa said, “Fine. I rather not see the president, rather than going with the Chinese ambassador.” So, he did not meet Truman. 1947. Truman is president. But he met Secretary of State instead. I mean, all this. He has double treatment on the Tibet all the time. British. The Americans. Because they. Not one thing they don’t; they are not clear. What is all this about it? And two, because the British had this de facto business policy, which they presented throughout the world with double action. So, the. So, the Tibetans have always received a very funny treatment. It is neither straight. None of them straightforward. None of them straightforward. It’s a double policy. Double treatment. But Shakabpa ministry, that is Taktra administration. He had sent Shakabpa here.

1:23:25.6 And Shakabpa tried to buy gold from the United States treasury. And which again has a lot of problems. Because unless you’re independent nation, you don’t sell gold by the United, by a nation. Private sources, maybe. But not from the National Treasury. So Shakabpa insist that he should get the gold from the United States Treasury. Though he had a cheaper offer from the Mexicans. A much cheaper, but he didn’t buy any. And he insisted from the American Treasury to buy the gold and he bought it. But when he got the gold, he has no money to pay. (laughs) Because Tibet’s foreign exchange, owned by Tibet, by export of wool, yak tails and all the quite a lot. Don’t make it. I mean, there’s huge amount. So, huge amount. And all of them has been taken over by India. (laughs) So, Tibet doesn’t get it. Tibetans are getting rupees in their hands and Indians are having the foreign exchange. So, the Shakabpa goes back totally to India and ask the government of India to release foreign exchange. So, the government of India says, “Oh, no. That was sold from 1:24:51.5 Karumba(?).” Tibet is landlocked. Right? And when you wanted to ship by sea you have to come to Calcutta. He said, “Oh, it was exported from Calcutta. Therefore, it is Indian foreign exchange and not Tibetan foreign exchange.” So, anyway all this. Finally, India released some. But what India released and what Shakabpa bought here, the figure doesn’t tally. There’s a huge difference figure. So, I do not know where he really got the other money from. There is something. Probably a private source in Hong Kong. Used to me. Because most of the money. I traced it back. Because I asked Shakabpa how that happened. He refused to answer. So, I traced it back and traced it back and found it was remitted through the New York bank from Hong Kong. From Hong Kong Shanghai bank. So, I traced the bank recording. So, it is probably a private source from Hong Kong. They just put it in. Anyway, sort of gold was bought from the United States Treasury. And the Shakabpa brought back reach to Delhi and then decided to negotiate with China. Negotiate. And negotiations started, not been able to start and finally able to start and started in New Delhi.

1:26:18.7 At about that time in Tibet, back in Tibet, the Taktra administration could not hold the government 1:26:25.9 positions(?). There is a lot of internal problems. Tremendous amount of crack inside the government. And that caused the Taktra administration to hand over the administration to the Dalai Lama, though Taktra really wanted to stay a little more and settle, solve this problem. Whatever the way, brought back and then decided. But however, disappeared in such. Created such a way that you could no longer hold it. And the Dalai Lama is forced to take power at the age of fifteen. At the age of fifteen. And not only; this is ceremonial taking over. Ok. When he is taking over, the Chinese have already marched into the Tibetan boundary. Already in Eastern Tibet. It already going. It’s already going. Shakabpa is in Delhi, trying to negotiate with China. And if you really look carefully, he gets orders from Tibetan government one day. And he telephones Chinese embassy, tried to go to lunch and they’re sort of suddenly maybe reaching it. And he gets another order form Tibetan government. Because now, changing of administrative power in Tibet affect even day’s work in Delhi. You see. If you really carefully observe. Now. Ok. I sort of really taking a lot of time. For the present His Holiness took power in nineteen. Was it forty-nine or fifty? Fifty. Fifty. And there are lot of American activities. A lot of, lot of, lot of activities going on at that period. However, finally, he tried his best to get along with the Chinese until 1959. It’s all difficulties. Now you are very much familiar. Tried to get along well with them. And in fifty-nine it has become impossible. Impossible for the Dalai Lama’s administration to function for the benefit of Tibet or the Tibetans. And it has become impossible for Tibetans to tolerate. To tolerate the Chinese action. It has become so bad. So bad. The monasteries have been destroyed. Everything’s been going on in Eastern, in East Tibet, lot and lot of Chinese are giving sort of too much thing and it’s become impossible. Then finally, he escaped to India. And revolt is going on already throughout Tibet everywhere, wherever it look. Revolt here. Revolt there.

Rimpoche: Go ahead.

[indistinguishable]

Robert: What do you have to say, please?

Audience: ….military. ….. Now that we all know it.

Robert: Yes.

Audience: Now we assume the Chinese are earnest and know what they are doing and … .

0:03:04.1 (not sure who is speaking) Robert?: Yes. And that’s giving the Chinese more credit than they deserve.

Audience: Do you think?

Robert: Yes.

Audience: But if you have that much population to use as a.

0:03:14.6 Robert or John: Chinese will have to choose. If you’re paying for it, you’re doing it. Because they’re notorious in South Africa. They cannot run an oppressive, a police state and have tourists come in. They’ll have to choose. They’ve got no other way to pay for the whole military operation.

Audience: But given the descriptions we’ve heard

John: They haven’t figure that out yet or maybe they have

Audience: Can’t they by simply maintaining the military, allow the culture to more or less

John: Have it pay for it. Absolutely. But they can’t pay for the religion

Audience: Sooner or later, they won’t even need oppressive measures.

Robert: That’s true.

Audience: Right

Robert: The genocide by population transfer is known as it’s 0:03:50.3 (????) of genocide. It’s set down numbers as you know, and sort of, whoever, (?) genocide. World court and so forth. Genocide by population transfer is one of the methods, which for example, the Chinese have more or less used to consider people, it’s near to them to successfully in Manchuria. The Manchu nation is more or less disappeared now. There are supposedly two million Manchus, but in Manchuria. But there’s seventy million Chinese, and where are you going to population. They’re sort of like scattered throughout. So, it is depressing. And also, I’ve been speaking, Rimpoche should speak but. It is depressing. It is even more depressing when you actually go to Tibet, and you see this massive presence of the Chinese. And I felt in the Tibetans a certain kind of, in Tibet, a kind of panic, I would say. By the strange combination actually. On one hand the certain 0:04:45.4 kind of panic(?). On the other hand, a certain kind of intense individual independence. You know that demonstration. I mean, those monks to go down there and play into this. They know they are going to be killed. Or as John said, I have Tibetan story. The guy grabbed the gun and they discussed smashing the gun. But they know by now, you shoot the gun. But they know that that’s hopeless, you know. And connect that to the Dalai Lama’s lecture to the, you know, twenty, you know, twenty-five or seventy-five thousand number of those Tibetans who were in Bodhgaya, couple years ago. Or often are there in winter. That their battle for independence is through the bodhisattva path. You know, by conquering the enemy, in the 0:05:33.5 (?)Buddhist transcendent texts and so on. And there the outer enemy will go away. So, they can turn all that energy for liberation into this sort of thing. For a simple people, they’re talking. Not talking intellectual. Just seeing that. So, there’s a combination of it’s very hopeful but very depressing. Then there’s the combination of, you know. We’re the Tibetans. This is what is true. And truth is truth and that’s that.

Audience: But that’s not being replicated in the kids.

0:05:59.5 Robert: Well, but no. The kids were leading those demonstrations. This is the strange thing. See. But this is a point I want to make. It isn’t what John said. Excuse me. One. There is one statement he made, which I’d like to set 0:06:09.2 in set(?). What you said wrong is that. the Chinese have never succeeded in creating a communist party to speak of. Really decent communist party in Tibet. Now, it’s not like Cambodia. There were no real Tibetan heavy, you know, class struggles, killers. The Tibetans did do some monetary wrecking. They were 0:06:22.8 (… poor, …..did in exile…?). There were Tibetan members of the communist party. There are the 0:06:28.4 (???) but. It never really got, sort of, into it. And this is. The Chinese have been very puzzled by this. And even into our talking and all they’re conceding to something that makes it incomprehensible as the terms of their cause and like John says. Power of religion. Power of religion. Everyone says about Tibet, “Power of religion.” But it isn’t just “power of religion”. This is step one. This nitroglycerin we’re talking about is not just religion. You see, because, you know, the communist idea. You know. It goes to the positivist history with the western type of modernity idea. You know, that religion is based on just a belief structure. And that’s a superstitious thing. And you know, when you have a rational explanation of the world, then that’s what falls away. You look. Wow. I can see that, when I turn the faucet the water comes out. That’s because I created a drop of water, that the water comes out. You know, that’s the sort of simplistic idea that they have. You see. They go and explain how the faucet runs and they expect the people to no longer pray to the god of water. Which is what they think they are doing with their Buddhism. But the fact is that Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism in particular is not just a belief system. In fact, Buddhism is, in a way, a transcending of belief system. It’s fundamental thing on wisdom is; involves the whole study of the nature of what creates the whole of belief system. And/or be held by a belief system. And although many simple Tibetans have a certain kind of faith, and they express things in certain pious way, the basic; underlying the culture, the tremendous emphasis on rationality. And the rationality of this way of living. And that we’re going to die, so it’s rational to prepare for death. And it’s rational to be so unselfish. And it’s rational to attain enlightenment. And so forth. Not just for the learned Geshe. So, the reason they can’t chisel this out of these people’s brain is that it doesn’t make sense to the people. They talk about liberation. The people see the Marxists slaving in labor camps and they say, “Who’s getting liberated in there?” You know. They talk about, you know, freedom from superstition but the Tibetan thing at core is not superstition. It’s actually a more rational way of living. Living in a sensible manner. And you can’t knock that out of somebody. And when somebody has that, as they say in Tibetan epistemology, if somebody has a strong inference. You know, where they realize by inference something strongly, even if they don’t have personal experience. You know, they’re not how they seem. That’s more powerful than just assumptions or ideology or brain washing, you see. So, the Tibetan people are not going to concede at the. What, you know, I was talking last night. John and I were actually talking last night at another 0:08:53.2conference(?). But I was seeing was. What the demonstration in Lhasa means, like the demonstrations through the delegations that he mentioned. Which was the biggest outpouring and frightened the Chinese the most. It really frightened them. That one. You know, they just couldn’t control these hundreds of thousands of people. All over Tibet.

0:09:09.1 Is. But the Tibetans are free in Tibet. You know. In a certain sense, they are actually now free. They can 0:09:16.4 outward religion(?) the Chinese people they all(???) free. Of course, they can kill all of them. That they can physically do. Kill every single Tibetan. And that’s a kind of level they’re showing that they’re going to do. So, the one ray of hope I feel is, what do the Chinese expect the world to do if they kill all the Tibetans? You know. Do they expect the people in Hong Kong to cooperate with them and do business with them? Do they expect the Taiwanese to do business with them? Do they expect the Japanese to do business with them? Do they expect us to be intimidated to do business with them? In fact, if they just mass murdered them all in a way where it cannot be invisible. All of the Tibetans. And if they don’t mass murder them, then Tibetans insist that they; it’s their country, they’re independent. And sort of morally and mentally they are. Somehow, it’s going to be an example of mind over matter, I think. Which is what keeps me from being depressed. And I did. When I left Tibet. After being in Tibet, the first 0:10:11.8 impression(?) I’ve seen from them is Chinese Tibetans. I would have felt very cheered up. That sort of, the Tibetans ordered me to be very cheered up. So, the Tibetans said, “We’re going to get 0:10:23.3our needs(?) to volunteer.” You do everything you can.” They would take the time to, not too far a time. I would say, “shhhh. The guy in the next room. There is like six Chinese in here. You’re going to get in trouble. I don’t want to get you in trouble.” “I don’t care.” You know. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They talked to me. They sort of personally feeling free, and another thing I, we heard. Friend of Rimpoche’s, who came back after all of this. 0:10:47.5 (Pema Glenn??). They were jailing Tibetans like Chris(?). They were running around like 0:10:50.7 (?). Were sneaking down doors in Lhasa and so forth at two o’clock in the morning and taking people away without explanation or notes. Notes to the relatives which written in long 0:10:58.2 (???) script. (?). The more they were free, the more proud of themselves, the Tibetans were. “We stood up to the Chinese.” Am I right, Rimpoche? We, you know 0:11:07.4 (Tibetan: sem chug) this word sem chug which means what? (???), you know, enthusiasm, which rioting(?) 0:11:14.7 (????) What do you think, Rimpoche? Are you depressed or not depressed?

Rimpoche: I don’t know

Robert: You don’t know whether you’re depressed or not depressed? He couldn’t be too badly depressed.

Rimpoche: You want me to say something?

Robert: Trying to. Look, I asked you what you thought.

Rimpoche: Ah ha.

Robert: On this subject. You know, the preliminary 0:11:50.3(??) On this subject he said that this is very depressing to see. John’s description of the situation.

Rimpoche: Yeah. It definitely very depressing. No doubt.

0:12:05.7 I mean the whole Tibetan situation if you look from the beginning, it was something very depressing. Always. I mean, look back. Look from very long, all the way back. Somehow, it’s always depressing. And as you all know, well know, I try not to involve in political talks or politics at all. So. I don’t know have much to say. It is no doubt depressing. Definitely. The Tibet situation today, whatever is happening is more than politics.

Robert: More than politics.

Rimpoche: Definitely. Because there’s human lives involved. People are getting killed. I think it’s more. Definitely more than politics. Sure.

Audience: Rimpoche, I have a question about, because perhaps Tibet has recommended that the 0:13:11.6 fight/right(?) form of Buddhism. What are the other Buddhists around the world? How are they reacting? Is there any such thing as, fellow Buddhists? Or is it everyone divide up their own? Theravadin Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Zen, etcetera, etcetera? Is there any kindred feeling of Buddhists suffering in Tibet about being oppressed? Is there a Buddhist movement?

Rimpoche: Do you have that?

Robert: Yes. You know, in charge. Not very much in the past. Just now in the United States, this Buddhist peace movement. Buddhist peace fellowship, it’s called. It’s just beginning. Sort of, Buddhist consciousness in America particularly, it’s beginning to kind of arouse itself. Not particularly over Tibet. But over injustice, you know, sort of levelling within American Buddhism. Which has been mostly focused on meditation, as you know, for twenty-five yearn s. It’s beginning to become aware of certain kind of social action. And initially it was the need for it, that is. Initially it was perhaps stimulated by feeling a little left out. Or as people grew more mature, they kind of got tired of sitting, or they thought they’d do something else than just this sitting. They began to see while Christians are doing a lot of things, in other religions people are active and what are we doing? And so that kind of thing. But then I think people are beginning to discover 0:14:29.1 written(?) sources within Buddhism. And much historical examples. And beginning to learn more about Buddhist culture. And realizing that Buddhism has been deeply involved in the world. And this sort of dichotomy between religion and politics does not necessarily apply to the Buddhist civilization actually. Even though, even monastic communities are very heavily involved in politics. And Tibet is the ultimate example of that. Where the monastic system became the government in the unique case. It’s the only case is in Tibet where the; you have monasteries acting to ply the government.

0:14:57.5 So, this is just beginning to happen. And in a way, you could say that, Tibet is only one out of many. And Tibetans have always seen this. But other Buddhists didn’t notice it. I think part of the reason is, that the Theravadin Buddhists and the east Asian Mahayana Buddhists did not necessarily, were not too sure about Tibetan Buddhism, until 0:15:17.6 recently(?). And still, I think to the more traditional ones are not. That is to say, tantra. They don’t know what is this tantra. And they hear this thing about Lamaism. And then these British missionaries wrote these horrible works about devil worship and all sort of thing. And they’re not really sure what is all this tantra. And the way the history of India is taught, the era of the tantra. That third stage that I talked about in our early classes. It’s talked about as decadence and degeneracy. You see. So, people really. Oddly it’s really true. I noticed in Japan. I don’t mean just official 0:15:45.5 dependent(?), Rimpoche. But I notice in Japan, as well as amongst Theravadin Buddhists, that the older faction people. They wonder if Tibetan Buddhism is Buddhism at all. And they will bluntly tell you, “Why did you like Tibetan Buddhism with that weird tantra. I mean.” What they said kind of funky. You know they sort of said. 0:16:01.5 (?) “but excuse me.” So, but now there’s more information. Knowledge is coming out. And His Holiness the Dalai Lama has published a lot. And other people have written. And they have begun to realize that Tibetan Buddhism may in fact have great treasures in relation to Buddhism and there may be something there. So, this is all slowly getting better. In addition to a general recognition of what you would call, I think, rightly The Buddhist holocaust that has actually taken place in this century. In 1945, Buddhism was perhaps a majority world religion. And second to it, Islam and Christianity. And now Buddhism is tiny thing. It’s hardly fit on the ground. There’s almost no Buddhist country left at all. Thailand and Burma and Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka’s already half communism. Thailand and Burma sort of militarist. And this and that. And Indochina, Nepal. China 0:16:49.1 (?). I mean, it’s been an extraordinary unravelling of quote unquote Buddhist societies in the last fifty years. Extraordinary.

0:17:00.3 I want to say about the depressing though. I won’t say that’s nothing. It is depressing truth. Second, John did show. John often is an expert at being depressing, actually. And it’s great. He’s a journalist who shows, like it’s like a, kind of, Solzhenitsyn like flavor about him. It is really valuable and very informed but this time I was glad that he shows the refugee community for example. And shows what a fantastically positive thing it is. Because, that I think is the crucial thing. For example, we all get appalled as you know, George Schultz makes analogy. Everybody’s like, “What do we do about terrorism?” Terrorism. The heads of state and the diplomats get together and they talk about terrorism. Terrible business, you know. The politicians and other groups in other places. You know, Gaddafi and 0:17:41.1 so on(?); we’re all worried about terrorists in the night, you see. Now, here’s a group of people who are very clever. They can make a car. They are; they’ve learned modern skills in India. They can make bombs. They can do all sorts of things. Easily. Lots of them.

0:17:53.4 And they don’t do it. And they haven’t done this. And they; their whole thing. They had to fight for independence. That is spiritual Jungian type of fight. This is a unique example. It may fail. Of course, it could continue to fail. But it’s a unique example of a refugee movement. An independence movement. And it’s operating on ambient kind of principles. In this age, there was a bit of a gorilla war. And as I’ve said, they’ve said so. I think some people will pick up some stones. And anyway, His Holiness commented on Tom Brokaw. He said, he disapproved of the stones. I don’t know if you know. He said, “I don’t like it when you do violence. Things will get destroyed. I think you have a right to have civil disobedience and I admire that.” He said. He used that phrase too, which I was pleased to hear, you know. 0:18:32.7 Descendance (???) of Thoreau, and Tolstoy, Gandhi traditions. Martin Luther King tradition. This is something very, not only it’s , I mean, it’s not in other words. If you look at in that light. The Tibetan possibility is a tremendous ray of hope, in a world that. Why, we don’t have to look at Tibet to getting depressed. I mean, look at these guys in Washington. They’re like, a few minor missiles are being cancelled and they’re having a big party over it. Each of them trying to bolster themselves politically, basically. Trying to get Bush a little bit of publicity and so on. Really that’s all it’s about. They’re not cancelling anything like the real stuff that they are holding. That’s what is more depressing. And they’re conviction that no non-violent, no truth, plan meets anything. Just pure tonnage of explosives. You know. So, in a way, that’s very, in effect, that even one nation on the face of the earth is trying to fight for peace, peacefully. It’s amazing. And hopeful to me. And it actually makes the struggle fall to be out Tibet. I think. See. This is why the Chinese can’t understand the topography in Tibet at all. No one can 0:19:35.5 suspect(?) and what these congressmen. You know, come from now. It’s a backward country, who pronounce Tibet, Tie bet. And they say, “Now, this Tie Bet. Tie bet. Tie bet.” They’ve never seen Tie bet. They don’t know what it is happened. But they are so really moved by it. Why? Because it is this unique people that have tried, trying this unique effort in the face of an insuperable object. If you just count up the numbers of Chinese, which is what everybody has done from the beginning, back to the time of Churchill. I read a memo written by WinstonYeah, it was Winston.He aButhe not to his Bell(?) anyway,0:21:25.9 (????) we’re

Rimpoche: Of course.

Robert: kinds of ingOf course,, you know.in And so on. Anda littlebeThey are certain ones being held nowTibet 0:22:45.0 (?)fromwill shareall these topicsFifth Dalai Lama. Fifth Dalai Lamas

Robert: Yes.

Rimpoche: i religionfreedom-ship in Buddhismin a-in-idos Vietnam;Buddhism.

machine willupsthere0:26:06.5 (?)an moveSouth Africa..0:27:01.8 after we gone()others (?)In the eyes of gThe sufferinge of t this way, it’s t So, nothing to be surprised in the eyes of Buddha. 0:27:40.2 (?)achinewhy,really up to youafter, 0:27:55.3 up to(??)(?) Do you have something else to say? 0:29:01.6 iki (?)sortmovas, but0:29:49.1 (?) not true And0:30:36.9 tedVietnama there, a writer’sThis isthe mis. TheyBuddhist, theseies. Tibet has so many 0:32:38.8 (?)..;Fifth Dalai Lamasix in which and everyFifth, One make notit contributesAfter cTibetanit, Fifth is not 0:34:30.2 (?)Secular. AWasn’t that. u0:35:01.9 I (?????)am.of Tsang0:35:15.2 (??pa0:36:02.7 (?)sideminister othe Phagmodrupanisterthe Kagyupa of our mean, ithenrather than Tsongkhapa cBuddhist, 0:37:10.6 (???)0:37:33.4 branch(?)branch(?)cushion (??)throne(?)H0:37:54.0 (?) 0:37:56.6 /chair/charity(?)empty0:38:11.1 n(?)then ahe No, no. You got a country. Excuse me duck, Rimpoche. In this country, control means three hundred billion dollar defense budget. Three hundred billion dollars. So, in history when you take control, “No that’s su pee en us bots”. Coercion is going on in that government. Now, the point it. That what the Dalai Lama did, he said, “If I have a government, like we did before. Where you have the unstable aristocrats, being big shots and running everything. Have an army. It’s an unstable situation. The peoples’ lives are too controlled and too many non-dharmic activists. So, let the folks who are into minimal control and the big institution of freedom. And this whole concern in the monastery finally, is human freedom. Enlightenment. The path. The spiritual path. Let them actually keep this government a minimalist government. Let’s set up our government the whole budget is for them to keep the monastery. That is the problem with the road system Now there’s a problem with an army system. Let’s have a government effort. And that’s what is fantastic, innovation, but it can only be achieved by crushing the aristocratic bloodline notion of Tibetan rulers up to that time. That they were bosses. That they would have slaves as servants and they could just. It’s an evil idea. And I’ll do what we did. It’s the central government it’s to give in to, they have to seeded the seed of really doing that and work for three hundred years pretty well. This is why

John: I will say, parshing the aristocracy to move strong may be the aristocracy was effected by religious ??.

Robert: Well, I want to say once again.

John: They existed. They continued.

1:04:13.1 Robert: Yes, they did. Here it is. But let me say one thing though. In Manchu China, at this time, in Louis the Fourteenth France, you know that the Versailles was built at the same time as the Potala. At the end of that century, Peter the Great of Russia, the guy in Austria. The big problem of the whole Eurasian planet. At this time was, precisely central people, they’re merging as the monarch with a sort of urban rationalized society, backed by merchants. Trying to control hereditary regional lords. And you know what Louis the Fourteenth strategy was? This was his strategy. This was not just like, he like to powder his hair and wear weird stockings. It was a written out strategy. I paused controlled the lords of France by throwing the greatest party in history. I want to build the best party house in history. And there’s going to be one constant entertainment here and all the barons are going to come here to have this party. And go to this fashion show. And watch these artists put on their, you know, nobidious rug rats. And that’s’ to distract them from their local power base and their local armies. And I’m going to really send them a strong central national rule. Peter the Great did the same thing in building St Petersburg with the voyeurs/voyarge of Russia. So, it was very interesting that the whole formation of the modern world, everywhere else, has fused the development by the centralized figures, who do kind of organization and who building up merchants, you know bourgeoisie, who imparts the bourgeoise, with; over old hereditary hierarchical power. And it is a transition from the feudal to the medieval; medieval feudal to the modern bourgeois era. All the hotel misfits, the historians will study that. So, in fact, what the Dalai Lama was doing. All the Tibet, let the China regard to doing the same thing. The Yongle Emperor of western China. At the sdfdfdfasdf and in China they were very explicit about it. If you want to keep your land, the Manchu overlords said, “You send your children and your wife and everybody to Beijing. And if you screw up to try to start any kind of like, revolt against me, they get killed. They have in effect, the Capitols for these kings were places where their aristocratic families as it were hostage. For their lack of decentralization and lack of too proud and to pledge that their not starting any war of this kind of conflict. That the 1450 that the medieval period sara at this time. So, now those people in those cases did it, secularized by building up a super army and crushing everybody. The fifth Dalai Lama did it by his monastic direction. Without any bloodshed. Hopefully he was helped, initiated by the Mongol army. So, in other words, this isn’t about crushing. It’s not. It’s. It’s a choble thing that happened in this era. And in Tibet monastic, specially the aristocrats, I think, will tell you that all along they were in charge. They were fine. Their wrong.

Rimpoche: They’re wrong.

Robert: The central government was in charge.

Rimpoche: What happened is. What happened is, the central government really doesn’t. dfasfdasdffasd. And their arguments won’t befsfsaass. So, the proof is, if you look even up to that king. During the Fourth Dalai Lama. Each one of them is aristocracy, they have been reduced. And dffffaaf in case of a war that came to the country.

Robert: Thirteenth Dalai Lama tried commit

Rimpoche: He wetffdfffsdfa. Until the present Dalai Lama, who really established a central Tibet powerful government. Government, I don’t really think they have. They said, they won’t be talking is very beautiful. However I was thinking that time. They. I. I was dffafas by what I was.

Robert:

Rimpoche: Because they’re communist. Because they’re fffas. Because they rule. And the government of this are the aristocratic families. That’s truly a fact.

Robert: Let me ask you this first.

Rimpoche:

Robert: No. No. You said

Rimpoche: You fdfaddf.

Robert: We just didn’t want to. Can I interrupt

Rimpoche: Because every tried to get fsfafasf. I couldn’t. as a member of the government.

Robert: Back in eighty-seven they are.

1:08:34.4 Government in exile. No you are. They brought them in the. Monastic government.

Rimpoche: I don’t think so

Robert: So, they no longer have to.

Rimpoche: Now for example.

Robert: But I have

Rimpoche: For example

Robert: I have one proof

Rimpoche: Yeah.

Robert: That I already said.

Rimpoche: Yeah

Robert: Total proof.

Rimpoche: What

Robert: From 1640. Ok. From 1340. From 1340 the government of Tibet turned over five times.

Rimpoche: Yes, that’s true. Yes.

Robert: And it’s a different region and a different aristocratic family had control of it. Ok?

Rimpoche: Oh

Robert: From 1640 until 1940 it doesn’t turn over once

Rimpoche: Yes.

Robert: There’s not one power in Tibet that tried to take control of the central government. Not one. So, outside people.

Rimpoche: I’m not sure. I’m not sure .I’m not sure.

Robert: Not one.

Rimpoche: Yes. They did

Robert: They grew within the government structure but not to take control from outside. There’s no more regional.

Rimpoche: Because of the

Robert: Now , you’re just making up history.

Rimpoche: What about dffadffa war?

Robert: That was in the structure.

Rimpoche: What do you mean within in the structure

Robert: That’s just some trifling within the structure.

Rimpoche: It is not. It is government Bon and why even fuel

Robert: It’s not the … Within the system

Rimpoche:

Robert: It’s like the tantric god versus the person of congress. That’s not like Arkansas attacking Washington.

Rimpoche: Anyway, that’s. That’s some of the west and I don’t think where the king reached any point here. So, what is the true fact is. (Laughs)

Audience: That’s true.

Rimpoche: That the fifth Dalai Lama really have a sort of kenchobee united power. Interesting point too. And he had established a government which had two systems combined. We always talk about it. Very proudly talk about it. Two systems. But1:10:32.0 (???). Two systems. That is just some of the monastery and the system of the secular.

Robert: Right.

Rimpoche: It combined

Robert: Integrate

Rimpoche: Integrate.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: Combined together. That is true. And that’s how fsdffdfasd established.

Robert: Ok

Rimpoche: I don’t think it has rath over. Or what this guy or that guy. It is a combination. It is the most important. And it is combined. A movement establish in 1642. And that fact of course already controlled in China.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: And biography.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: And even today. The Tibetans call for ?? in China, but they’re destroying books. The Dalai Lama, over forty volumes forty different titles. And I guess that’s it. I don’t want to talk much because it is late.

Robert: Yeah. I thought you had one more thing.

Rimpoche: Thank you. Ten thirty five.

Robert: Just one thing about that. It’s that you are quite right in a certain social sense. Until the thirties. It took hundreds of years for it to further develop. The political thing. But one thing that’s most interesting that the fifth Dalai Lama did. I just handing this other fact. And that is that government is ruled by ideology and by ritual. And therefore that Dalai Lama, he made a national theatre and he built most of all. He built the Potala. On the site of the original dharma king. He built the Potala. And I just want to leave you with this to reflect about. If you think that Tibet is not an important piece of the panel. Well, even if it was only a few million people. East of the Potala and as 1:12:16.9stills(?) of the Potala were rising, Versailles was built. Petersburg was built. The Taj Mahal was built. Beijing was built. And it’s really interesting. It’s really interesting.

Rimpoche: Thank you

Robert: Good night.

Rimpoche: Before you go, I’ve got two more things today

Robert: Well, that’ s ok.

Rimpoche: One is that Tibet

Lama Pema: To, to debate with the Tibetan teacher. The reason is because in the first line of the writing he says, 0:00:12.6 (Tibetan: she je tam che su be chen pa) Means, the one who has wide eyes sees everything. So, that really provoked everybody else. Who can see everything? And they basically say, “Who’s that? Who knows everything, who’s omniscient?” So, they came up and started to. All they enter Tibet and then started the debate in the place called 0:00:40.6 Mahalangur Chitwan, right below the, right behind the Nepalese border actually. Right behind the Everest. And there the debate took place and they were defeated. And later they renounced their system and became monk. And until recently, until 1959, their hairs, when they cut off their hairs to become monk were still preserved in the Sakya monastery in Tibet as the proof of that.

Rimpoche:….

Robert: Long hair

Lama Pema: Yeah

Robert: Long sadhu hair.

Rimpoche: ..

Lama Pema: …Genuine.

Rimpoche:

(Hmm. Otherwise, I’ll fall asleep. When Tibetan tells a story, you don’t tell a story in daylight. You know, like, the light on. You have no books, nothing. You all sleep and mother has to tell story and children has to say in the dark, hmm peewr. Kind of say. The biggest

Robert: You lure to sleep by pretending to go ho hum.

Lama Pema: it’s still. So, the mother will know whether you are actually sleeping or still listening.

Robert: Otherwise

Lama Pema: So, the. He. The. So, that what actually decided all this, when he debated and he became first teacher who actually are exposed to the other Buddhist system belief. And then come in contact and debated and defeated in an open, open tournament. So, it is again for the Tibetan history something to noted. You know, to think about it. In India a lot of thing happen like that. You know, Indian Buddhist debating Buddhism and the winning and so forth.

0:03:00.5 So, his fame actually spread all over India, Tibet and the Chinese, China. The then China, who was recently ruled by the Mongol China. Respect all over So, the. So, the. It was the same time when Tibet after the king Langdarma’s death, until Sapan’s time, as I said earlier, Tibet is kind of interspersed. Has no central rule. No central thing to look for. Everybody’s sort oflike, having a small like curtain(?) states of united. Something like that. It’s kind of like that. So, the. It was for the Tibetans, it was Sapan’s great name, greased. While we call, actually Sapan’s great compassion. His far. That really helped save the Tibetans to, from that time until now, 1959 to come into this kind of integrated, kind of Tibet as overall thing. That’s how I should say it. If I’m wrong you have to forgive.

Robert:……

Lama Pema: It’s my perception, now. Doesn’t mean anything. And it is it is not because it is warfare, fighting war for anything. Nothing. It’s just the learning. This inner sage/search?. That really saved. Just as you have, what do you call? Maybe it is difficult to understand. Like the, when Milton wrote a poem, he saved the country from the war. Do you know that story? Something like that. Of course, totally different way of looking at it. But something like, this one person saved the whole Tibet from the destruction and later what Tibet actually came to be, integral Tibet. Our eng political upheaval or you know, attempt to rule one another. The Sapan, Mongols, Genghis Khan, actually ruled the China, and actually took over Tibet. Just a few wars and Tibet just simply said yes. And started giving the, what do you call it, tributary? Tributes.

Robert: tributes

Lama Pema: tributes. Yeah. After the Genghis Khan death, Tibet stopped paying it. So, they thought they were free, now since he is dead. So, Genghis Khan’s son, actually Godan is aneckan grandson. Godan. He sent lute army into Tibet and he actually again, came up and killed thousands of monks, burned hundreds of monasteries, and came all the way up to the center of Tibet. So, there was a time when Godan was very much need, for many needs. One need; he wasn’t in need of power anymore from Tibet. He don’t need any wealth, anymore. Because Tibet doesn’t look anyway like you could get anything out of that.

0:06:09.6 But actually what you are looking for is an enlightened teacher. He was looking for that. He sent his minister called, Dorta and Leje. The two minister to look, what is there in Tibet you can find it. And look whether you can find a great teacher, because I need that. So, they looked around and they saw different traditions, like Drikungpa and Kadampa and so forth. And all the teacher, at that time is the greatest teacher seems to be the Sakya Pandita. So, and then the, what do you call. I want to read the, what do you call, the story, the invitation. Basically, it was a. It wasn’t quite an invitation, but the. The. It’s a kind of a. Well, since you will never have time to look at those histories, but this is time, just hear something about it. It will be nice. So, he sent an invitation, saying, “I, the most powerful perse perse King Godan wishing for Sakya Pandita Kunga Gyaltsen. That we need a lama to advise my ignorant people on how to conduct themselves, morally and spiritually. I need someone to pray for the welfare for my deceased parents.” That was another reason. “To whom I am deeply grateful. I have been pondering this problem for some time and after much consideration, I have decided that you are the only person suitable for the task. As you are the only lama I have chosen, I will not accept any excuse on account of your age.” Because Sapan is very old at that time, over sixty years old. Over sixty years. “Or the vigors of the journey. The Lord Buddha gave his life for all living beings.” Here he’s cause. He’s already learned because China at that time is, I think, half the world at that time is Buddhist. Do you know that time? Because almost all China is Buddhist. So, he knows all about the Buddha’s teaching. All he needs is a teacher, actually a teacher. “Lord Buddha gave his life for all living beings. Would you not therefore,, be denying your faith if you try to avoid this duty of yours? It would of course be easy for me to send a large body of troops to bring you here. But in so doing harm and unhappiness ;might be brought to many units and living beings. In the interest of Buddhist faith and welfare of all living beings, creatures, I suggest that you come to us immediately.” (laughter)

0:08:50.6 The. The. That’s the thing and then later on the actually the story runs. How you know, Sapan has to write lot of letters because Tibetans need him much back in Tibet. And he wrote a letter to Kadampa, one of the Kadampas students called Kadampa 0:09:04.7Namkha Drak/Bum(?) This Kadampa 0:09:06.8 Namkha Drak(?) for scholar is useful is one of Kadampa school and become the very much student of Sapan and later on is a student; became a great teacher. So, he wrote these to, as answers to certain letters to Namkha Drak. He said, “These Mongols have told me that you must at any rate come to be our religious teacher and if you will not come, there will be war. Therefore it is better that I go with them, for fear that Tibet would suffer if war break out. I have no more than a hope that, that will bring, that will be benefited by my doing. Yet I have no certainty it will be so. Nonetheless, I know I can give my body in life if that will bring benefit for living beings.” Now, to the Buddhist, that is, more than anything else, if a person can give up one’s body for sentient beings, then that is actually shows when you attain the stage called bodhisattva bhumi. The actual intentional, of thoughtful meaningful giving only is the sign. You can read the Ahisamayalankara. You know, how you, when you reach the such and such state, what is your outward sign of inward experience. That is exactly when you receive such and such. So, that actually shows, he’s the great enlightened teacher. Now, so, Sapan went to India, went to Mongol China, up to all the way down to the placed called Liangzhou/Lingchu? Len chow? How do you pronounce?

Robert: Leng cho

(insert time here) Lama Pema: Len chow. And he took, actually, three actual almost three years to get there. The what, passing through the Lhasa, Samye Monastery, and basically Sapan’s teaching headquarter, later Lingchu and previously sachu? And the Samye in the Lhasa. These are the three places of his major teaching places. So, in Samye, he basically, what do you call, renovated the kind of dilapidated Samye Monastery. And painted the monastery. He even created a famous painting called 0:11:24.7 Dom Sum Tenba(?) Dom Sum Tanba. That year. Of all the Tibetan, what do you call it? Of all the Tibetan style of painting, the when you see the sword, you know, basically you can guess, you know. Roughly you guess this is; this original painting comes from this very famous painting there. He painted in the walls of Samye Monastery and put the, wrote a poem about it. And you can still look at it. You can see every now and them. You can come across Tibetan book or many translated books. So, he passed through the Samye and that is where, actually, the, his nephew who is ten years old, called Phagpa became ordained in Samye Monastery. So, when he went to, finally we see, landed in China in Liangzhou, he was then led by the Godan, who was just enthroned as the king. And they, they both turned cloth,we call fen la, the fen means the chieftain or king or whatever. La means the teacher. For the teacher, what we call, later, what you call in the Western term, Priest, patron top type of thing. They met. And there actually, Sapan’s great impact on their lives was, what do you call? The, when he started teaching and introducing the Tibetan Vajrayana teaching for the first time. First, initiating the king himself. So, those are the time. It is a little bit, not too widely known in the general folks. But usually, you know, like anything else, the chieftains, the teacher; actually owns the teacher. You know, once he invites. So. So, again, the tantric Buddhism is especially difficult to develop, because teaching only can be given for twenty-five students. So, he limit yourself and you can’t reach. So, the; he taught and another thing, a significant thing that Sapan did directly to the Godan is because one of the reasons Godan, actually, his mundane reason was to heal him from this, what do you call? He suffering from leper, leprosy, and Sapan actually, through the, 0:13:42.5( mantra path Maitripa (singhanada)?), healed this leprosy at that time. So, the king gained a lot of path and very much devoted to the Buddhism. There is more of an esoteric aspect of the story; inner story usually gets by scholars and Tibetan delivers that actually was the; since king is Buddhist, he need a great Buddhist teacher to actually, to solve the problem that they are having at that time, between the Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. That is supposed to be. Some scholar thinks that way. Maybe wrong. Maybe just their supposition. Half heard issues. But that is one of the reasons because, the name that reach China is primarily not just the word of the messenger told him, but because this famous name, when he debated Indian logicians and teacher. Respectfrom what do you call it? gabbyhor. Tibet; hor means Mongol and then China. So sort of everybody sort of knew like we know right now the, you know, like, what do you call it, nuclear war, something. We know. We know all about it. At that time.

0:14:57.7 That is another reason, he was looking for spiritual teacher who can actually solve the problem there, but unfortunately Sapan lived only for six years or something. He didn’t live much in China. There was a repeated request by the Tibetan. And he wrote repeated letters, such as a letter to the Tibetans and all. And letter to my students. A letter to such and such. A letter to answer to the prince. A letter. So, in these collection of works, you can read all kinds of letters. The. In his collection of works, you can find. Usually connect with the spiritual work. Basically Sapan on the other hand is very much help in the most spiritual method to protect the Tibetan from the destruction. So, they have their own independence in their own way. And basically, pleasing, taking care of the king, by his own spiritual power. That is how the first time the priest as king was actually coming up at that time. And we know our present king and teacher and leader, His Holiness Dalai Lama. It’s a similar, similar form. Just the same thing. These are the, what do you call, the original, the earliest form of the priest king, that happened to be. The. So, Sapan actually wrote over hundred and forty works, dependent on different lengths. The famous are the thing called, the Dom Sum. The Treasury. Now the Legs Shad is the kind of go collection of elegant saying. This is the mark of all the Tibetans, even now. It is so widely spoken, world renowned. And all other books, basically the writing is esoteric. The Vajrayana form of Buddhism which doesn’t make sense to you right now. And the. The one of the most contribution that he gave in the form of writing and studying is this called: Mams Jug. How do you call Mams Jug? Lexicon.

Robert: Mams Jug, the

Lama Pema: How do you say in English.

Robert: Lexicon. Encyclopedia.

Lama Pema: Yeah. Encyclopedia, which doesn’t exist. And he started writing. Translating for the first time, for the what do you call? Poetry from India to Tibet. Sanskrit in Tibet. Which later became the authoritative text written by the Gundee. The poet in India. And he started studying it. He wrote drama. He wrote all kinds of, in other words, I told you before.

0:17:41.9 So, one of the most important thing he wrote is, in the later part of his, later few days of his life, which had extended over two years, in China, he wrote the thing called the letter to do, letter to all the Tibetans, he wrote. And then the religious text called, Sage’s Intent. Means the teaching, summarizing all Buddha’s teaching. Giving the title, it’s what Buddha intend to teach, you know. It’s called Sage’s Intent. He’s saying these two books and basically he, in those letters, he really said, he’s unable to come back to Tibet. He basically gave up that he is going to live forever, the rest of his life, no matter how he’s living. And that became legacy as he kind of lost whatever, the things to give back to the Tibet. So, over that years, I’m telling this story just to kind of give you a kind of basis, a conception, a kind of person; a teacher. Not to, I’m not digging how great he is, how smart. I’m not digging part. You are the one who is going to judge, if you want to study further. Now, those are the days. Actually, of Kublai Khan, the great king. Maybe you have book, you have the book specific. Kublai Khan is the another king new to the Godan. I think he is successor, yes?

Robert: Yes

Lama Pema: The. He actually definitely want Sapan to come back to his place, by the time Sapan passed away. So, Godan also died at the same time. Same. Basically the same year. But what left behind, this is the Phagpa. In China, Chinese call fossil. Phagpa. His original name’s Chogyal Phagpa. Means the dharma king. Dharma King. Do you see this? The original first word, Dharma King. The Dharma King, Chogyal Phagpa is only nineteen years old. He’s a kid. Right? From the teen years. And the. But he. Because he’s learning, he’s scholar. Because he’s great sage himself. He actually learn all he needs to learn from Sakya Pandita. And Sakya Pandita finally said, “You have learned everything that I have to teach you. Now I’m giving you my dharma heir, as my dharma heir.” So, he give his gold status of Buddha and a conch shell as a kind of, whatever, that’s the tradition to do, the teacher to give student.

0:20:23.0 So, the Phagpa who’s only nineteen year old, took over the charge to actusfsf, to as the religious heir to Sapan and this Phagpa, who is nineteen year old, actually influenced the king so much, turned then into Vajrayana Buddhist, gave the initiation and he’s the one first to conquer. Basically, through the spiritual power, to Tibet, back to Tibet himself, without even killing one person. And he gave Tibet back to Tibet itself. In other words, as a token of the offering, of the gift, to the dharma gift that Phagpa gave to Kublai Khan. Kublai Khan gave him back Tibet to these, what do you call? To this great teacher. Later he also gave him Imperial Preceptor as the title. They call it 0:21:16.1 Guoshi(?) in China, which king, teacher or something. So, this Phagpa became very instrumental for the Kublai Khan’s purpose. Because Phagpa, actually, for the rest of his life, except for almost about eight years of his life, he actually spend most of life, (eighteen years in Tibet, probably, all in all) in China. So, the. Of course that means he had already mastered the Chinese language by now. So, he is the one who is about at that time, about twenty-seven or something, or twenty-nine, who actually resolved the. Who actually participated in the debate between the two hundred Buddhists, two hundred Taoist, two hundred Confucians, in the place called 0:22:13.9 (????) (Kaiping???) I don’t know much about it. locality called Karakrum. And he’s the, a kind of, the hero of that debate and basically defeated the, what do you call? Taoist beliefs of certain things. Here it says something or other. He. The. The. In other words, there was a strong belief within the Taoist that even actually proved that how the text go here ching which translate as conversion of the Taoism, that it is false. The only text that is true, actually true is the what do you call it? The other I Ching. I think I ching is the only text that is the right thing. In other words, he actually took over this kind of same thing that Sapan, his uncle actually took in it’s, in Tibet.

0:23:19.7 Not only that, there are different problems with different scholars. Some say Sapan. Some say Phagpa. But one way another, one of the teacher actually devised for the first time a script for Mongolian to facilitate this existing colloquial language to translate entire Buddhist canon into that language. And he, he invented a script called phags-pa script in the letter, his name. And that is the very much look like Tibetan. You can see, if you find a book. The. And. And through his inspiration, the Mongolians really undertook to actually translate the Buddhist canon. And that didn’t took more than three, thirty years or something. It was translated back in Tibet, in Mongolian. So, the basically, Phagpa is the one who, who regained this Tibet back to the Tibetans, themselves. So, all this teacher, I’m not going to list other teachers that we have in our texts. The letter teachers. So, in other words, the power and the realization, the understanding of those great teachers is actually what they call the study and the practice of this specific cycle of the tantra called the Hevajra. And that is the cycle of tantra, which the overall corpus of Lamdre, is actually explain it. And that is still taught and we still have this lineage. You don’t have to worry that its scattered away some more time. It is still alive. You know, you want a love them, you can cuddle them. You know, you can adopt them neither. Whatever you want. It’s still taught in a living tradition. And the, this is the, that same power, that actually got these teachers enlightened and these beings benefited and liberated. And these Tibetan people who enjoy the lasting peace for several centuries, such as these teachings. So, to the others; other religious system, you have teaching called Lam Rim. To the Gelugpa system, you have Lam Rim .To the Kagyu system you have this called the Six Yogas of Naropa. You know, doesn’t mean anything different, but a special kind of, each carrying their own kind of certain aspect of Buddhism as whole. And to the Nyingmapa, you know, the Dzogpa Chenpo, the great compassion and so forth. This. So, this is actually. How much time do we have?

Robert: 0:26:05.8 (Tibetan: rt and lp)

0:26:31.0 Lama Pema: So, the. So, the Lamdre system as the, what do you call? That is what has been practiced. And if you want to study, you can study now. In writing the preliminary books, reading the books, studying under the teachers of your own way. And so forth. But the. As the main style, the whole thing is the tantric system, based on the Hevajra tantra. Is the little bit successful because, by, because its nature of secrecy. That’s the only problem for the public has it. So, you have to give up lot to finally come to this point. You know. Even your ideas, even yourself, any, everything. You basically make yourself non-being and make a being out of that. The. The. So, this Lamdre system is actually again, same thing. Has been preserved, practiced, by the same Khon family. Same Khon family. So, the same Khon family. One of the interesting things to me. I don’t know for you. This. We have a definite record of these, how many years? Of about twelve hundred years, this family lineage. A direct lineage. One after another. That is something. You know, if nothing else. And the, and still exists. The Khon family still exists in the form of the emanation of Manjushri. His Holiness Sakya Trizin in India, Present head of Sakya family; Sakya tradition school and both. Another branch of family lives in Seattle, called 0:28:16.1 Dagchen Rimpoche. Same thing. And they are the one who holds this, this Lamdre system and who teaches. But that doesn’t mean that other teacher, so far doesn’t have any responsibility or have no share or something. Doesn’t mean. But this family took over, like you took over certain children to adopt and save life. In same way, this family actually took over sometime as the king, sometime as priest, sometime as landlords, sometime as chieftains. Basically whatever form they are took over the place of Sakya and preserved to the Lamdre system there. And basically taught in Tibet, these three great places. Which later the Sakya school developed itself. The three school called: Ngor school. Most of the painting you saw, very much