Archive Result

11

1Soundfile 198712141116GR&RTMN22_01

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche & Robert Thurman

Location ??

Topic Tibet Mystic Nation

Transcriber Vickii Cahill

Date January 24, 2022

Rimpoche: nominated, any ey weighed most heavily, you can write a sort of anyshe or sheThere’s a letter. Nominations arefrequent0:00:27.4 committee(?) (??) as I said, he’s been the list0:00:46.7 (??) it would be doneAudience: When do they vote?

Robert: So,, 0:01:12.2 will not see , go onpolitical sne comedic 0:01:17.4 (?)in we’veYeah. 0:01:35.8 Latino(?) prizes ,unif , ydone forthem, 0:01:53.3 doomsday/(?)And it would (break)No. no.

Robert: Come on. Little audience. Little. Little group participation here, if you have anything to say.

Rimpoche: Go ahead.

[indistinguishable]

Robert: What do you have to say, please?

Audience: ….military. ….. Now that we all know it.

Robert: Yes.

Audience: Now we assume the Chinese are earnest and know what they are doing and … .

0:03:04.1 (not sure who is speaking) Robert?: Yes. And that’s giving the Chinese more credit than they deserve.

Audience: Do you think?

Robert: Yes.

Audience: But if you have that much population to use as a.

0:03:14.6 Robert or John: Chinese will have to choose. If you’re paying for it, you’re doing it. Because they’re notorious in South Africa. They cannot run an oppressive, a police state and have tourists come in. They’ll have to choose. They’ve got no other way to pay for the whole military operation.

Audience: But given the descriptions we’ve heard

John: They haven’t figure that out yet or maybe they have

Audience: Can’t they by simply maintaining the military, allow the culture to more or less

John: Have it pay for it. Absolutely. But they can’t pay for the religion

Audience: Sooner or later, they won’t even need oppressive measures.

Robert: That’s true.

Audience: Right

Robert: The genocide by population transfer is known as it’s 0:03:50.3 (????) of genocide. It’s set down numbers as you know, and sort of, whoever, (?) genocide. World court and so forth. Genocide by population transfer is one of the methods, which for example, the Chinese have more or less used to consider people, it’s near to them to successfully in Manchuria. The Manchu nation is more or less disappeared now. There are supposedly two million Manchus, but in Manchuria. But there’s seventy million Chinese, and where are you going to population. They’re sort of like scattered throughout. So, it is depressing. And also, I’ve been speaking, Rimpoche should speak but. It is depressing. It is even more depressing when you actually go to Tibet, and you see this massive presence of the Chinese. And I felt in the Tibetans a certain kind of, in Tibet, a kind of panic, I would say. By the strange combination actually. On one hand the certain 0:04:45.4 kind of panic(?). On the other hand, a certain kind of intense individual independence. You know that demonstration. I mean, those monks to go down there and play into this. They know they are going to be killed. Or as John said, I have Tibetan story. The guy grabbed the gun and they discussed smashing the gun. But they know by now, you shoot the gun. But they know that that’s hopeless, you know. And connect that to the Dalai Lama’s lecture to the, you know, twenty, you know, twenty-five or seventy-five thousand number of those Tibetans who were in Bodhgaya, couple years ago. Or often are there in winter. That their battle for independence is through the bodhisattva path. You know, by conquering the enemy, in the 0:05:33.5 (?)Buddhist transcendent texts and so on. And there the outer enemy will go away. So, they can turn all that energy for liberation into this sort of thing. For a simple people, they’re talking. Not talking intellectual. Just seeing that. So, there’s a combination of it’s very hopeful but very depressing. Then there’s the combination of, you know. We’re the Tibetans. This is what is true. And truth is truth and that’s that.

Audience: But that’s not being replicated in the kids.

0:05:59.5 Robert: Well, but no. The kids were leading those demonstrations. This is the strange thing. See. But this is a point I want to make. It isn’t what John said. Excuse me. One. There is one statement he made, which I’d like to set 0:06:09.2 in set(?). What you said wrong is that. the Chinese have never succeeded in creating a communist party to speak of. Really decent communist party in Tibet. Now, it’s not like Cambodia. There were no real Tibetan heavy, you know, class struggles, killers. The Tibetans did do some monetary wrecking. They were 0:06:22.8 (… poor, …..did in exile…?). There were Tibetan members of the communist party. There are the 0:06:28.4 (???) but. It never really got, sort of, into it. And this is. The Chinese have been very puzzled by this. And even into our talking and all they’re conceding to something that makes it incomprehensible as the terms of their cause and like John says. Power of religion. Power of religion. Everyone says about Tibet, “Power of religion.” But it isn’t just “power of religion”. This is step one. This nitroglycerin we’re talking about is not just religion. You see, because, you know, the communist idea. You know. It goes to the positivist history with the western type of modernity idea. You know, that religion is based on just a belief structure. And that’s a superstitious thing. And you know, when you have a rational explanation of the world, then that’s what falls away. You look. Wow. I can see that, when I turn the faucet the water comes out. That’s because I created a drop of water, that the water comes out. You know, that’s the sort of simplistic idea that they have. You see. They go and explain how the faucet runs and they expect the people to no longer pray to the god of water. Which is what they think they are doing with their Buddhism. But the fact is that Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism in particular is not just a belief system. In fact, Buddhism is, in a way, a transcending of belief system. It’s fundamental thing on wisdom is; involves the whole study of the nature of what creates the whole of belief system. And/or be held by a belief system. And although many simple Tibetans have a certain kind of faith, and they express things in certain pious way, the basic; underlying the culture, the tremendous emphasis on rationality. And the rationality of this way of living. And that we’re going to die, so it’s rational to prepare for death. And it’s rational to be so unselfish. And it’s rational to attain enlightenment. And so forth. Not just for the learned Geshe. So, the reason they can’t chisel this out of these people’s brain is that it doesn’t make sense to the people. They talk about liberation. The people see the Marxists slaving in labor camps and they say, “Who’s getting liberated in there?” You know. They talk about, you know, freedom from superstition but the Tibetan thing at core is not superstition. It’s actually a more rational way of living. Living in a sensible manner. And you can’t knock that out of somebody. And when somebody has that, as they say in Tibetan epistemology, if somebody has a strong inference. You know, where they realize by inference something strongly, even if they don’t have personal experience. You know, they’re not how they seem. That’s more powerful than just assumptions or ideology or brain washing, you see. So, the Tibetan people are not going to concede at the. What, you know, I was talking last night. John and I were actually talking last night at another 0:08:53.2conference(?). But I was seeing was. What the demonstration in Lhasa means, like the demonstrations through the delegations that he mentioned. Which was the biggest outpouring and frightened the Chinese the most. It really frightened them. That one. You know, they just couldn’t control these hundreds of thousands of people. All over Tibet.

0:09:09.1 Is. But the Tibetans are free in Tibet. You know. In a certain sense, they are actually now free. They can 0:09:16.4 outward religion(?) the Chinese people they all(???) free. Of course, they can kill all of them. That they can physically do. Kill every single Tibetan. And that’s a kind of level they’re showing that they’re going to do. So, the one ray of hope I feel is, what do the Chinese expect the world to do if they kill all the Tibetans? You know. Do they expect the people in Hong Kong to cooperate with them and do business with them? Do they expect the Taiwanese to do business with them? Do they expect the Japanese to do business with them? Do they expect us to be intimidated to do business with them? In fact, if they just mass murdered them all in a way where it cannot be invisible. All of the Tibetans. And if they don’t mass murder them, then Tibetans insist that they; it’s their country, they’re independent. And sort of morally and mentally they are. Somehow, it’s going to be an example of mind over matter, I think. Which is what keeps me from being depressed. And I did. When I left Tibet. After being in Tibet, the first 0:10:11.8 impression(?) I’ve seen from them is Chinese Tibetans. I would have felt very cheered up. That sort of, the Tibetans ordered me to be very cheered up. So, the Tibetans said, “We’re going to get 0:10:23.3our needs(?) to volunteer.” You do everything you can.” They would take the time to, not too far a time. I would say, “shhhh. The guy in the next room. There is like six Chinese in here. You’re going to get in trouble. I don’t want to get you in trouble.” “I don’t care.” You know. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They talked to me. They sort of personally feeling free, and another thing I, we heard. Friend of Rimpoche’s, who came back after all of this. 0:10:47.5 (Pema Glenn??). They were jailing Tibetans like Chris(?). They were running around like 0:10:50.7 (?). Were sneaking down doors in Lhasa and so forth at two o’clock in the morning and taking people away without explanation or notes. Notes to the relatives which written in long 0:10:58.2 (???) script. (?). The more they were free, the more proud of themselves, the Tibetans were. “We stood up to the Chinese.” Am I right, Rimpoche? We, you know 0:11:07.4 (Tibetan: sem chug) this word sem chug which means what? (???), you know, enthusiasm, which rioting(?) 0:11:14.7 (????) What do you think, Rimpoche? Are you depressed or not depressed?

Rimpoche: I don’t know

Robert: You don’t know whether you’re depressed or not depressed? He couldn’t be too badly depressed.

Rimpoche: You want me to say something?

Robert: Trying to. Look, I asked you what you thought.

Rimpoche: Ah ha.

Robert: On this subject. You know, the preliminary 0:11:50.3(??) On this subject he said that this is very depressing to see. John’s description of the situation.

Rimpoche: Yeah. It definitely very depressing. No doubt.

0:12:05.7 I mean the whole Tibetan situation if you look from the beginning, it was something very depressing. Always. I mean, look back. Look from very long, all the way back. Somehow, it’s always depressing. And as you all know, well know, I try not to involve in political talks or politics at all. So. I don’t know have much to say. It is no doubt depressing. Definitely. The Tibet situation today, whatever is happening is more than politics.

Robert: More than politics.

Rimpoche: Definitely. Because there’s human lives involved. People are getting killed. I think it’s more. Definitely more than politics. Sure.

Audience: Rimpoche, I have a question about, because perhaps Tibet has recommended that the 0:13:11.6 fight/right(?) form of Buddhism. What are the other Buddhists around the world? How are they reacting? Is there any such thing as, fellow Buddhists? Or is it everyone divide up their own? Theravadin Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Zen, etcetera, etcetera? Is there any kindred feeling of Buddhists suffering in Tibet about being oppressed? Is there a Buddhist movement?

Rimpoche: Do you have that?

Robert: Yes. You know, in charge. Not very much in the past. Just now in the United States, this Buddhist peace movement. Buddhist peace fellowship, it’s called. It’s just beginning. Sort of, Buddhist consciousness in America particularly, it’s beginning to kind of arouse itself. Not particularly over Tibet. But over injustice, you know, sort of levelling within American Buddhism. Which has been mostly focused on meditation, as you know, for twenty-five yearn s. It’s beginning to become aware of certain kind of social action. And initially it was the need for it, that is. Initially it was perhaps stimulated by feeling a little left out. Or as people grew more mature, they kind of got tired of sitting, or they thought they’d do something else than just this sitting. They began to see while Christians are doing a lot of things, in other religions people are active and what are we doing? And so that kind of thing. But then I think people are beginning to discover 0:14:29.1 written(?) sources within Buddhism. And much historical examples. And beginning to learn more about Buddhist culture. And realizing that Buddhism has been deeply involved in the world. And this sort of dichotomy between religion and politics does not necessarily apply to the Buddhist civilization actually. Even though, even monastic communities are very heavily involved in politics. And Tibet is the ultimate example of that. Where the monastic system became the government in the unique case. It’s the only case is in Tibet where the; you have monasteries acting to ply the government.

0:14:57.5 So, this is just beginning to happen. And in a way, you could say that, Tibet is only one out of many. And Tibetans have always seen this. But other Buddhists didn’t notice it. I think part of the reason is, that the Theravadin Buddhists and the east Asian Mahayana Buddhists did not necessarily, were not too sure about Tibetan Buddhism, until 0:15:17.6 recently(?). And still, I think to the more traditional ones are not. That is to say, tantra. They don’t know what is this tantra. And they hear this thing about Lamaism. And then these British missionaries wrote these horrible works about devil worship and all sort of thing. And they’re not really sure what is all this tantra. And the way the history of India is taught, the era of the tantra. That third stage that I talked about in our early classes. It’s talked about as decadence and degeneracy. You see. So, people really. Oddly it’s really true. I noticed in Japan. I don’t mean just official 0:15:45.5 dependent(?), Rimpoche. But I notice in Japan, as well as amongst Theravadin Buddhists, that the older faction people. They wonder if Tibetan Buddhism is Buddhism at all. And they will bluntly tell you, “Why did you like Tibetan Buddhism with that weird tantra. I mean.” What they said kind of funky. You know they sort of said. 0:16:01.5 (?) “but excuse me.” So, but now there’s more information. Knowledge is coming out. And His Holiness the Dalai Lama has published a lot. And other people have written. And they have begun to realize that Tibetan Buddhism may in fact have great treasures in relation to Buddhism and there may be something there. So, this is all slowly getting better. In addition to a general recognition of what you would call, I think, rightly The Buddhist holocaust that has actually taken place in this century. In 1945, Buddhism was perhaps a majority world religion. And second to it, Islam and Christianity. And now Buddhism is tiny thing. It’s hardly fit on the ground. There’s almost no Buddhist country left at all. Thailand and Burma and Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka’s already half communism. Thailand and Burma sort of militarist. And this and that. And Indochina, Nepal. China 0:16:49.1 (?). I mean, it’s been an extraordinary unravelling of quote unquote Buddhist societies in the last fifty years. Extraordinary.

0:17:00.3 I want to say about the depressing though. I won’t say that’s nothing. It is depressing truth. Second, John did show. John often is an expert at being depressing, actually. And it’s great. He’s a journalist who shows, like it’s like a, kind of, Solzhenitsyn like flavor about him. It is really valuable and very informed but this time I was glad that he shows the refugee community for example. And shows what a fantastically positive thing it is. Because, that I think is the crucial thing. For example, we all get appalled as you know, George Schultz makes analogy. Everybody’s like, “What do we do about terrorism?” Terrorism. The heads of state and the diplomats get together and they talk about terrorism. Terrible business, you know. The politicians and other groups in other places. You know, Gaddafi and 0:17:41.1 so on(?); we’re all worried about terrorists in the night, you see. Now, here’s a group of people who are very clever. They can make a car. They are; they’ve learned modern skills in India. They can make bombs. They can do all sorts of things. Easily. Lots of them.

0:17:53.4 And they don’t do it. And they haven’t done this. And they; their whole thing. They had to fight for independence. That is spiritual Jungian type of fight. This is a unique example. It may fail. Of course, it could continue to fail. But it’s a unique example of a refugee movement. An independence movement. And it’s operating on ambient kind of principles. In this age, there was a bit of a gorilla war. And as I’ve said, they’ve said so. I think some people will pick up some stones. And anyway, His Holiness commented on Tom Brokaw. He said, he disapproved of the stones. I don’t know if you know. He said, “I don’t like it when you do violence. Things will get destroyed. I think you have a right to have civil disobedience and I admire that.” He said. He used that phrase too, which I was pleased to hear, you know. 0:18:32.7 Descendance (???) of Thoreau, and Tolstoy, Gandhi traditions. Martin Luther King tradition. This is something very, not only it’s , I mean, it’s not in other words. If you look at in that light. The Tibetan possibility is a tremendous ray of hope, in a world that. Why, we don’t have to look at Tibet to getting depressed. I mean, look at these guys in Washington. They’re like, a few minor missiles are being cancelled and they’re having a big party over it. Each of them trying to bolster themselves politically, basically. Trying to get Bush a little bit of publicity and so on. Really that’s all it’s about. They’re not cancelling anything like the real stuff that they are holding. That’s what is more depressing. And they’re conviction that no non-violent, no truth, plan meets anything. Just pure tonnage of explosives. You know. So, in a way, that’s very, in effect, that even one nation on the face of the earth is trying to fight for peace, peacefully. It’s amazing. And hopeful to me. And it actually makes the struggle fall to be out Tibet. I think. See. This is why the Chinese can’t understand the topography in Tibet at all. No one can 0:19:35.5 suspect(?) and what these congressmen. You know, come from now. It’s a backward country, who pronounce Tibet, Tie bet. And they say, “Now, this Tie Bet. Tie bet. Tie bet.” They’ve never seen Tie bet. They don’t know what it is happened. But they are so really moved by it. Why? Because it is this unique people that have tried, trying this unique effort in the face of an insuperable object. If you just count up the numbers of Chinese, which is what everybody has done from the beginning, back to the time of Churchill. I read a memo written by WinstonYeah, it was Winston.He aButhe not to his Bell(?) anyway,0:21:25.9 (????) we’re

Rimpoche: Of course.

Robert: kinds of ingOf course,, you know.in And so on. Anda littlebeThey are certain ones being held nowTibet 0:22:45.0 (?)fromwill shareall these topicsFifth Dalai Lama. Fifth Dalai Lamas

Robert: Yes.

Rimpoche: i religionfreedom-ship in Buddhismin a-in-idos Vietnam;Buddhism.

machine willupsthere0:26:06.5 (?)an moveSouth Africa..0:27:01.8 after we gone()others (?)In the eyes of gThe sufferinge of t this way, it’s t So, nothing to be surprised in the eyes of Buddha. 0:27:40.2 (?)achinewhy,really up to youafter, 0:27:55.3 up to(??)(?) Do you have something else to say? 0:29:01.6 iki (?)sortmovas, but0:29:49.1 (?) not true And0:30:36.9 tedVietnama there, a writer’sThis isthe mis. TheyBuddhist, theseies. Tibet has so many 0:32:38.8 (?)..;Fifth Dalai Lamasix in which and everyFifth, One make notit contributesAfter cTibetanit, Fifth is not 0:34:30.2 (?)Secular. AWasn’t that. u0:35:01.9 I (?????)am.of Tsang0:35:15.2 (??pa0:36:02.7 (?)sideminister othe Phagmodrupanisterthe Kagyupa of our mean, ithenrather than Tsongkhapa cBuddhist, 0:37:10.6 (???)0:37:33.4 branch(?)branch(?)cushion (??)throne(?)H0:37:54.0 (?) 0:37:56.6 /chair/charity(?)empty0:38:11.1 n(?)then ahe No, no. You got a country. Excuse me duck, Rimpoche. In this country, control means three hundred billion dollar defense budget. Three hundred billion dollars. So, in history when you take control, “No that’s su pee en us bots”. Coercion is going on in that government. Now, the point it. That what the Dalai Lama did, he said, “If I have a government, like we did before. Where you have the unstable aristocrats, being big shots and running everything. Have an army. It’s an unstable situation. The peoples’ lives are too controlled and too many non-dharmic activists. So, let the folks who are into minimal control and the big institution of freedom. And this whole concern in the monastery finally, is human freedom. Enlightenment. The path. The spiritual path. Let them actually keep this government a minimalist government. Let’s set up our government the whole budget is for them to keep the monastery. That is the problem with the road system Now there’s a problem with an army system. Let’s have a government effort. And that’s what is fantastic, innovation, but it can only be achieved by crushing the aristocratic bloodline notion of Tibetan rulers up to that time. That they were bosses. That they would have slaves as servants and they could just. It’s an evil idea. And I’ll do what we did. It’s the central government it’s to give in to, they have to seeded the seed of really doing that and work for three hundred years pretty well. This is why

John: I will say, parshing the aristocracy to move strong may be the aristocracy was effected by religious ??.

Robert: Well, I want to say once again.

John: They existed. They continued.

1:04:13.1 Robert: Yes, they did. Here it is. But let me say one thing though. In Manchu China, at this time, in Louis the Fourteenth France, you know that the Versailles was built at the same time as the Potala. At the end of that century, Peter the Great of Russia, the guy in Austria. The big problem of the whole Eurasian planet. At this time was, precisely central people, they’re merging as the monarch with a sort of urban rationalized society, backed by merchants. Trying to control hereditary regional lords. And you know what Louis the Fourteenth strategy was? This was his strategy. This was not just like, he like to powder his hair and wear weird stockings. It was a written out strategy. I paused controlled the lords of France by throwing the greatest party in history. I want to build the best party house in history. And there’s going to be one constant entertainment here and all the barons are going to come here to have this party. And go to this fashion show. And watch these artists put on their, you know, nobidious rug rats. And that’s’ to distract them from their local power base and their local armies. And I’m going to really send them a strong central national rule. Peter the Great did the same thing in building St Petersburg with the voyeurs/voyarge of Russia. So, it was very interesting that the whole formation of the modern world, everywhere else, has fused the development by the centralized figures, who do kind of organization and who building up merchants, you know bourgeoisie, who imparts the bourgeoise, with; over old hereditary hierarchical power. And it is a transition from the feudal to the medieval; medieval feudal to the modern bourgeois era. All the hotel misfits, the historians will study that. So, in fact, what the Dalai Lama was doing. All the Tibet, let the China regard to doing the same thing. The Yongle Emperor of western China. At the sdfdfdfasdf and in China they were very explicit about it. If you want to keep your land, the Manchu overlords said, “You send your children and your wife and everybody to Beijing. And if you screw up to try to start any kind of like, revolt against me, they get killed. They have in effect, the Capitols for these kings were places where their aristocratic families as it were hostage. For their lack of decentralization and lack of too proud and to pledge that their not starting any war of this kind of conflict. That the 1450 that the medieval period sara at this time. So, now those people in those cases did it, secularized by building up a super army and crushing everybody. The fifth Dalai Lama did it by his monastic direction. Without any bloodshed. Hopefully he was helped, initiated by the Mongol army. So, in other words, this isn’t about crushing. It’s not. It’s. It’s a choble thing that happened in this era. And in Tibet monastic, specially the aristocrats, I think, will tell you that all along they were in charge. They were fine. Their wrong.

Rimpoche: They’re wrong.

Robert: The central government was in charge.

Rimpoche: What happened is. What happened is, the central government really doesn’t. dfasfdasdffasd. And their arguments won’t befsfsaass. So, the proof is, if you look even up to that king. During the Fourth Dalai Lama. Each one of them is aristocracy, they have been reduced. And dffffaaf in case of a war that came to the country.

Robert: Thirteenth Dalai Lama tried commit

Rimpoche: He wetffdfffsdfa. Until the present Dalai Lama, who really established a central Tibet powerful government. Government, I don’t really think they have. They said, they won’t be talking is very beautiful. However I was thinking that time. They. I. I was dffafas by what I was.

Robert:

Rimpoche: Because they’re communist. Because they’re fffas. Because they rule. And the government of this are the aristocratic families. That’s truly a fact.

Robert: Let me ask you this first.

Rimpoche:

Robert: No. No. You said

Rimpoche: You fdfaddf.

Robert: We just didn’t want to. Can I interrupt

Rimpoche: Because every tried to get fsfafasf. I couldn’t. as a member of the government.

Robert: Back in eighty-seven they are.

1:08:34.4 Government in exile. No you are. They brought them in the. Monastic government.

Rimpoche: I don’t think so

Robert: So, they no longer have to.

Rimpoche: Now for example.

Robert: But I have

Rimpoche: For example

Robert: I have one proof

Rimpoche: Yeah.

Robert: That I already said.

Rimpoche: Yeah

Robert: Total proof.

Rimpoche: What

Robert: From 1640. Ok. From 1340. From 1340 the government of Tibet turned over five times.

Rimpoche: Yes, that’s true. Yes.

Robert: And it’s a different region and a different aristocratic family had control of it. Ok?

Rimpoche: Oh

Robert: From 1640 until 1940 it doesn’t turn over once

Rimpoche: Yes.

Robert: There’s not one power in Tibet that tried to take control of the central government. Not one. So, outside people.

Rimpoche: I’m not sure. I’m not sure .I’m not sure.

Robert: Not one.

Rimpoche: Yes. They did

Robert: They grew within the government structure but not to take control from outside. There’s no more regional.

Rimpoche: Because of the

Robert: Now , you’re just making up history.

Rimpoche: What about dffadffa war?

Robert: That was in the structure.

Rimpoche: What do you mean within in the structure

Robert: That’s just some trifling within the structure.

Rimpoche: It is not. It is government Bon and why even fuel

Robert: It’s not the … Within the system

Rimpoche:

Robert: It’s like the tantric god versus the person of congress. That’s not like Arkansas attacking Washington.

Rimpoche: Anyway, that’s. That’s some of the west and I don’t think where the king reached any point here. So, what is the true fact is. (Laughs)

Audience: That’s true.

Rimpoche: That the fifth Dalai Lama really have a sort of kenchobee united power. Interesting point too. And he had established a government which had two systems combined. We always talk about it. Very proudly talk about it. Two systems. But1:10:32.0 (???). Two systems. That is just some of the monastery and the system of the secular.

Robert: Right.

Rimpoche: It combined

Robert: Integrate

Rimpoche: Integrate.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: Combined together. That is true. And that’s how fsdffdfasd established.

Robert: Ok

Rimpoche: I don’t think it has rath over. Or what this guy or that guy. It is a combination. It is the most important. And it is combined. A movement establish in 1642. And that fact of course already controlled in China.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: And biography.

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: And even today. The Tibetans call for ?? in China, but they’re destroying books. The Dalai Lama, over forty volumes forty different titles. And I guess that’s it. I don’t want to talk much because it is late.

Robert: Yeah. I thought you had one more thing.

Rimpoche: Thank you. Ten thirty five.

Robert: Just one thing about that. It’s that you are quite right in a certain social sense. Until the thirties. It took hundreds of years for it to further develop. The political thing. But one thing that’s most interesting that the fifth Dalai Lama did. I just handing this other fact. And that is that government is ruled by ideology and by ritual. And therefore that Dalai Lama, he made a national theatre and he built most of all. He built the Potala. On the site of the original dharma king. He built the Potala. And I just want to leave you with this to reflect about. If you think that Tibet is not an important piece of the panel. Well, even if it was only a few million people. East of the Potala and as 1:12:16.9stills(?) of the Potala were rising, Versailles was built. Petersburg was built. The Taj Mahal was built. Beijing was built. And it’s really interesting. It’s really interesting.

Rimpoche: Thank you

Robert: Good night.

Rimpoche: Before you go, I’ve got two more things today

Robert: Well, that’ s ok.

Rimpoche: One is that Tibet

Lama Pema: To, to debate with the Tibetan teacher. The reason is because in the first line of the writing he says, 0:00:12.6 (Tibetan: she je tam che su be chen pa) Means, the one who has wide eyes sees everything. So, that really provoked everybody else. Who can see everything? And they basically say, “Who’s that? Who knows everything, who’s omniscient?” So, they came up and started to. All they enter Tibet and then started the debate in the place called 0:00:40.6 Mahalangur Chitwan, right below the, right behind the Nepalese border actually. Right behind the Everest. And there the debate took place and they were defeated. And later they renounced their system and became monk. And until recently, until 1959, their hairs, when they cut off their hairs to become monk were still preserved in the Sakya monastery in Tibet as the proof of that.

Rimpoche:….

Robert: Long hair

Lama Pema: Yeah

Robert: Long sadhu hair.

Rimpoche: ..

Lama Pema: …Genuine.

Rimpoche:

(Hmm. Otherwise, I’ll fall asleep. When Tibetan tells a story, you don’t tell a story in daylight. You know, like, the light on. You have no books, nothing. You all sleep and mother has to tell story and children has to say in the dark, hmm peewr. Kind of say. The biggest

Robert: You lure to sleep by pretending to go ho hum.

Lama Pema: it’s still. So, the mother will know whether you are actually sleeping or still listening.

Robert: Otherwise

Lama Pema: So, the. He. The. So, that what actually decided all this, when he debated and he became first teacher who actually are exposed to the other Buddhist system belief. And then come in contact and debated and defeated in an open, open tournament. So, it is again for the Tibetan history something to noted. You know, to think about it. In India a lot of thing happen like that. You know, Indian Buddhist debating Buddhism and the winning and so forth.

0:03:00.5 So, his fame actually spread all over India, Tibet and the Chinese, China. The then China, who was recently ruled by the Mongol China. Respect all over So, the. So, the. It was the same time when Tibet after the king Langdarma’s death, until Sapan’s time, as I said earlier, Tibet is kind of interspersed. Has no central rule. No central thing to look for. Everybody’s sort oflike, having a small like curtain(?) states of united. Something like that. It’s kind of like that. So, the. It was for the Tibetans, it was Sapan’s great name, greased. While we call, actually Sapan’s great compassion. His far. That really helped save the Tibetans to, from that time until now, 1959 to come into this kind of integrated, kind of Tibet as overall thing. That’s how I should say it. If I’m wrong you have to forgive.

Robert:……

Lama Pema: It’s my perception, now. Doesn’t mean anything. And it is it is not because it is warfare, fighting war for anything. Nothing. It’s just the learning. This inner sage/search?. That really saved. Just as you have, what do you call? Maybe it is difficult to understand. Like the, when Milton wrote a poem, he saved the country from the war. Do you know that story? Something like that. Of course, totally different way of looking at it. But something like, this one person saved the whole Tibet from the destruction and later what Tibet actually came to be, integral Tibet. Our eng political upheaval or you know, attempt to rule one another. The Sapan, Mongols, Genghis Khan, actually ruled the China, and actually took over Tibet. Just a few wars and Tibet just simply said yes. And started giving the, what do you call it, tributary? Tributes.

Robert: tributes

Lama Pema: tributes. Yeah. After the Genghis Khan death, Tibet stopped paying it. So, they thought they were free, now since he is dead. So, Genghis Khan’s son, actually Godan is aneckan grandson. Godan. He sent lute army into Tibet and he actually again, came up and killed thousands of monks, burned hundreds of monasteries, and came all the way up to the center of Tibet. So, there was a time when Godan was very much need, for many needs. One need; he wasn’t in need of power anymore from Tibet. He don’t need any wealth, anymore. Because Tibet doesn’t look anyway like you could get anything out of that.

0:06:09.6 But actually what you are looking for is an enlightened teacher. He was looking for that. He sent his minister called, Dorta and Leje. The two minister to look, what is there in Tibet you can find it. And look whether you can find a great teacher, because I need that. So, they looked around and they saw different traditions, like Drikungpa and Kadampa and so forth. And all the teacher, at that time is the greatest teacher seems to be the Sakya Pandita. So, and then the, what do you call. I want to read the, what do you call, the story, the invitation. Basically, it was a. It wasn’t quite an invitation, but the. The. It’s a kind of a. Well, since you will never have time to look at those histories, but this is time, just hear something about it. It will be nice. So, he sent an invitation, saying, “I, the most powerful perse perse King Godan wishing for Sakya Pandita Kunga Gyaltsen. That we need a lama to advise my ignorant people on how to conduct themselves, morally and spiritually. I need someone to pray for the welfare for my deceased parents.” That was another reason. “To whom I am deeply grateful. I have been pondering this problem for some time and after much consideration, I have decided that you are the only person suitable for the task. As you are the only lama I have chosen, I will not accept any excuse on account of your age.” Because Sapan is very old at that time, over sixty years old. Over sixty years. “Or the vigors of the journey. The Lord Buddha gave his life for all living beings.” Here he’s cause. He’s already learned because China at that time is, I think, half the world at that time is Buddhist. Do you know that time? Because almost all China is Buddhist. So, he knows all about the Buddha’s teaching. All he needs is a teacher, actually a teacher. “Lord Buddha gave his life for all living beings. Would you not therefore,, be denying your faith if you try to avoid this duty of yours? It would of course be easy for me to send a large body of troops to bring you here. But in so doing harm and unhappiness ;might be brought to many units and living beings. In the interest of Buddhist faith and welfare of all living beings, creatures, I suggest that you come to us immediately.” (laughter)

0:08:50.6 The. The. That’s the thing and then later on the actually the story runs. How you know, Sapan has to write lot of letters because Tibetans need him much back in Tibet. And he wrote a letter to Kadampa, one of the Kadampas students called Kadampa 0:09:04.7Namkha Drak/Bum(?) This Kadampa 0:09:06.8 Namkha Drak(?) for scholar is useful is one of Kadampa school and become the very much student of Sapan and later on is a student; became a great teacher. So, he wrote these to, as answers to certain letters to Namkha Drak. He said, “These Mongols have told me that you must at any rate come to be our religious teacher and if you will not come, there will be war. Therefore it is better that I go with them, for fear that Tibet would suffer if war break out. I have no more than a hope that, that will bring, that will be benefited by my doing. Yet I have no certainty it will be so. Nonetheless, I know I can give my body in life if that will bring benefit for living beings.” Now, to the Buddhist, that is, more than anything else, if a person can give up one’s body for sentient beings, then that is actually shows when you attain the stage called bodhisattva bhumi. The actual intentional, of thoughtful meaningful giving only is the sign. You can read the Ahisamayalankara. You know, how you, when you reach the such and such state, what is your outward sign of inward experience. That is exactly when you receive such and such. So, that actually shows, he’s the great enlightened teacher. Now, so, Sapan went to India, went to Mongol China, up to all the way down to the placed called Liangzhou/Lingchu? Len chow? How do you pronounce?

Robert: Leng cho

(insert time here) Lama Pema: Len chow. And he took, actually, three actual almost three years to get there. The what, passing through the Lhasa, Samye Monastery, and basically Sapan’s teaching headquarter, later Lingchu and previously sachu? And the Samye in the Lhasa. These are the three places of his major teaching places. So, in Samye, he basically, what do you call, renovated the kind of dilapidated Samye Monastery. And painted the monastery. He even created a famous painting called 0:11:24.7 Dom Sum Tenba(?) Dom Sum Tanba. That year. Of all the Tibetan, what do you call it? Of all the Tibetan style of painting, the when you see the sword, you know, basically you can guess, you know. Roughly you guess this is; this original painting comes from this very famous painting there. He painted in the walls of Samye Monastery and put the, wrote a poem about it. And you can still look at it. You can see every now and them. You can come across Tibetan book or many translated books. So, he passed through the Samye and that is where, actually, the, his nephew who is ten years old, called Phagpa became ordained in Samye Monastery. So, when he went to, finally we see, landed in China in Liangzhou, he was then led by the Godan, who was just enthroned as the king. And they, they both turned cloth,we call fen la, the fen means the chieftain or king or whatever. La means the teacher. For the teacher, what we call, later, what you call in the Western term, Priest, patron top type of thing. They met. And there actually, Sapan’s great impact on their lives was, what do you call? The, when he started teaching and introducing the Tibetan Vajrayana teaching for the first time. First, initiating the king himself. So, those are the time. It is a little bit, not too widely known in the general folks. But usually, you know, like anything else, the chieftains, the teacher; actually owns the teacher. You know, once he invites. So. So, again, the tantric Buddhism is especially difficult to develop, because teaching only can be given for twenty-five students. So, he limit yourself and you can’t reach. So, the; he taught and another thing, a significant thing that Sapan did directly to the Godan is because one of the reasons Godan, actually, his mundane reason was to heal him from this, what do you call? He suffering from leper, leprosy, and Sapan actually, through the, 0:13:42.5( mantra path Maitripa (singhanada)?), healed this leprosy at that time. So, the king gained a lot of path and very much devoted to the Buddhism. There is more of an esoteric aspect of the story; inner story usually gets by scholars and Tibetan delivers that actually was the; since king is Buddhist, he need a great Buddhist teacher to actually, to solve the problem that they are having at that time, between the Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. That is supposed to be. Some scholar thinks that way. Maybe wrong. Maybe just their supposition. Half heard issues. But that is one of the reasons because, the name that reach China is primarily not just the word of the messenger told him, but because this famous name, when he debated Indian logicians and teacher. Respectfrom what do you call it? gabbyhor. Tibet; hor means Mongol and then China. So sort of everybody sort of knew like we know right now the, you know, like, what do you call it, nuclear war, something. We know. We know all about it. At that time.

0:14:57.7 That is another reason, he was looking for spiritual teacher who can actually solve the problem there, but unfortunately Sapan lived only for six years or something. He didn’t live much in China. There was a repeated request by the Tibetan. And he wrote repeated letters, such as a letter to the Tibetans and all. And letter to my students. A letter to such and such. A letter to answer to the prince. A letter. So, in these collection of works, you can read all kinds of letters. The. In his collection of works, you can find. Usually connect with the spiritual work. Basically Sapan on the other hand is very much help in the most spiritual method to protect the Tibetan from the destruction. So, they have their own independence in their own way. And basically, pleasing, taking care of the king, by his own spiritual power. That is how the first time the priest as king was actually coming up at that time. And we know our present king and teacher and leader, His Holiness Dalai Lama. It’s a similar, similar form. Just the same thing. These are the, what do you call, the original, the earliest form of the priest king, that happened to be. The. So, Sapan actually wrote over hundred and forty works, dependent on different lengths. The famous are the thing called, the Dom Sum. The Treasury. Now the Legs Shad is the kind of go collection of elegant saying. This is the mark of all the Tibetans, even now. It is so widely spoken, world renowned. And all other books, basically the writing is esoteric. The Vajrayana form of Buddhism which doesn’t make sense to you right now. And the. The one of the most contribution that he gave in the form of writing and studying is this called: Mams Jug. How do you call Mams Jug? Lexicon.

Robert: Mams Jug, the

Lama Pema: How do you say in English.

Robert: Lexicon. Encyclopedia.

Lama Pema: Yeah. Encyclopedia, which doesn’t exist. And he started writing. Translating for the first time, for the what do you call? Poetry from India to Tibet. Sanskrit in Tibet. Which later became the authoritative text written by the Gundee. The poet in India. And he started studying it. He wrote drama. He wrote all kinds of, in other words, I told you before.

0:17:41.9 So, one of the most important thing he wrote is, in the later part of his, later few days of his life, which had extended over two years, in China, he wrote the thing called the letter to do, letter to all the Tibetans, he wrote. And then the religious text called, Sage’s Intent. Means the teaching, summarizing all Buddha’s teaching. Giving the title, it’s what Buddha intend to teach, you know. It’s called Sage’s Intent. He’s saying these two books and basically he, in those letters, he really said, he’s unable to come back to Tibet. He basically gave up that he is going to live forever, the rest of his life, no matter how he’s living. And that became legacy as he kind of lost whatever, the things to give back to the Tibet. So, over that years, I’m telling this story just to kind of give you a kind of basis, a conception, a kind of person; a teacher. Not to, I’m not digging how great he is, how smart. I’m not digging part. You are the one who is going to judge, if you want to study further. Now, those are the days. Actually, of Kublai Khan, the great king. Maybe you have book, you have the book specific. Kublai Khan is the another king new to the Godan. I think he is successor, yes?

Robert: Yes

Lama Pema: The. He actually definitely want Sapan to come back to his place, by the time Sapan passed away. So, Godan also died at the same time. Same. Basically the same year. But what left behind, this is the Phagpa. In China, Chinese call fossil. Phagpa. His original name’s Chogyal Phagpa. Means the dharma king. Dharma King. Do you see this? The original first word, Dharma King. The Dharma King, Chogyal Phagpa is only nineteen years old. He’s a kid. Right? From the teen years. And the. But he. Because he’s learning, he’s scholar. Because he’s great sage himself. He actually learn all he needs to learn from Sakya Pandita. And Sakya Pandita finally said, “You have learned everything that I have to teach you. Now I’m giving you my dharma heir, as my dharma heir.” So, he give his gold status of Buddha and a conch shell as a kind of, whatever, that’s the tradition to do, the teacher to give student.

0:20:23.0 So, the Phagpa who’s only nineteen year old, took over the charge to actusfsf, to as the religious heir to Sapan and this Phagpa, who is nineteen year old, actually influenced the king so much, turned then into Vajrayana Buddhist, gave the initiation and he’s the one first to conquer. Basically, through the spiritual power, to Tibet, back to Tibet himself, without even killing one person. And he gave Tibet back to Tibet itself. In other words, as a token of the offering, of the gift, to the dharma gift that Phagpa gave to Kublai Khan. Kublai Khan gave him back Tibet to these, what do you call? To this great teacher. Later he also gave him Imperial Preceptor as the title. They call it 0:21:16.1 Guoshi(?) in China, which king, teacher or something. So, this Phagpa became very instrumental for the Kublai Khan’s purpose. Because Phagpa, actually, for the rest of his life, except for almost about eight years of his life, he actually spend most of life, (eighteen years in Tibet, probably, all in all) in China. So, the. Of course that means he had already mastered the Chinese language by now. So, he is the one who is about at that time, about twenty-seven or something, or twenty-nine, who actually resolved the. Who actually participated in the debate between the two hundred Buddhists, two hundred Taoist, two hundred Confucians, in the place called 0:22:13.9 (????) (Kaiping???) I don’t know much about it. locality called Karakrum. And he’s the, a kind of, the hero of that debate and basically defeated the, what do you call? Taoist beliefs of certain things. Here it says something or other. He. The. The. In other words, there was a strong belief within the Taoist that even actually proved that how the text go here ching which translate as conversion of the Taoism, that it is false. The only text that is true, actually true is the what do you call it? The other I Ching. I think I ching is the only text that is the right thing. In other words, he actually took over this kind of same thing that Sapan, his uncle actually took in it’s, in Tibet.

0:23:19.7 Not only that, there are different problems with different scholars. Some say Sapan. Some say Phagpa. But one way another, one of the teacher actually devised for the first time a script for Mongolian to facilitate this existing colloquial language to translate entire Buddhist canon into that language. And he, he invented a script called phags-pa script in the letter, his name. And that is the very much look like Tibetan. You can see, if you find a book. The. And. And through his inspiration, the Mongolians really undertook to actually translate the Buddhist canon. And that didn’t took more than three, thirty years or something. It was translated back in Tibet, in Mongolian. So, the basically, Phagpa is the one who, who regained this Tibet back to the Tibetans, themselves. So, all this teacher, I’m not going to list other teachers that we have in our texts. The letter teachers. So, in other words, the power and the realization, the understanding of those great teachers is actually what they call the study and the practice of this specific cycle of the tantra called the Hevajra. And that is the cycle of tantra, which the overall corpus of Lamdre, is actually explain it. And that is still taught and we still have this lineage. You don’t have to worry that its scattered away some more time. It is still alive. You know, you want a love them, you can cuddle them. You know, you can adopt them neither. Whatever you want. It’s still taught in a living tradition. And the, this is the, that same power, that actually got these teachers enlightened and these beings benefited and liberated. And these Tibetan people who enjoy the lasting peace for several centuries, such as these teachings. So, to the others; other religious system, you have teaching called Lam Rim. To the Gelugpa system, you have Lam Rim .To the Kagyu system you have this called the Six Yogas of Naropa. You know, doesn’t mean anything different, but a special kind of, each carrying their own kind of certain aspect of Buddhism as whole. And to the Nyingmapa, you know, the Dzogpa Chenpo, the great compassion and so forth. This. So, this is actually. How much time do we have?

Robert: 0:26:05.8 (Tibetan: rt and lp)

0:26:31.0 Lama Pema: So, the. So, the Lamdre system as the, what do you call? That is what has been practiced. And if you want to study, you can study now. In writing the preliminary books, reading the books, studying under the teachers of your own way. And so forth. But the. As the main style, the whole thing is the tantric system, based on the Hevajra tantra. Is the little bit successful because, by, because its nature of secrecy. That’s the only problem for the public has it. So, you have to give up lot to finally come to this point. You know. Even your ideas, even yourself, any, everything. You basically make yourself non-being and make a being out of that. The. The. So, this Lamdre system is actually again, same thing. Has been preserved, practiced, by the same Khon family. Same Khon family. So, the same Khon family. One of the interesting things to me. I don’t know for you. This. We have a definite record of these, how many years? Of about twelve hundred years, this family lineage. A direct lineage. One after another. That is something. You know, if nothing else. And the, and still exists. The Khon family still exists in the form of the emanation of Manjushri. His Holiness Sakya Trizin in India, Present head of Sakya family; Sakya tradition school and both. Another branch of family lives in Seattle, called 0:28:16.1 Dagchen Rimpoche. Same thing. And they are the one who holds this, this Lamdre system and who teaches. But that doesn’t mean that other teacher, so far doesn’t have any responsibility or have no share or something. Doesn’t mean. But this family took over, like you took over certain children to adopt and save life. In same way, this family actually took over sometime as the king, sometime as priest, sometime as landlords, sometime as chieftains. Basically whatever form they are took over the place of Sakya and preserved to the Lamdre system there. And basically taught in Tibet, these three great places. Which later the Sakya school developed itself. The three school called: Ngor school. Most of the painting you saw, very much Even if Dalai Lama remain in Tibet, he could have done nothing. It is totally to that worse. It is totally useless. At about that time the Dalai Lama decided that he was; he served Tibet better by going outside. So, he left Norbulingka. I mean, normally we’ll say here the Chinese decided to kill him and blah, blah, blah. All this. I do not know whether Chinese really going to benefit by killing Dalai Lama at that time there. Whether. I’m not really sure whether Chinese really wanted kill him or not. However, it is his decision that he will leave the country. With his decision he skipped the Buddhist revolt going everywhere. Including Lhasa. There is no way His Holiness can function; the Dalai Lama can function. No way. It won’t serve any purpose at all. So, it, he decided it better if he go outside. It may help Tibetan people and Tibet better. So, he skipped. When he skipped, on his route to India in South Tibet, there’s a place called 0:01:13.2 (Tibetan:…ca..)

Robert: Lhuntse Dzong

Rimpoche: Lhuntse Dzong. A place called Lhuntse Dzong in one of the fort area, where the seat of the early Tibetan Kings, in that area. He had a public meeting, and sort of, he denounced the Seventeen Point Agreement, which Tibetan representatives signed under duress and later ratified by the Tibetan government in Lhasa, when the Chinese already marched in Lhasa. Already there. So, which he, sort of denounced. And redeclared Tibet independent from Lhuntse and then he skipped into India. And then, after that, we all know what’s happening today.

Robert: So, we should take a short break, little break. We’ll take five-minute break so you can have a break and stretch your legs. Your turn. Now Mr. Rinchen Dharlo. His Holiness representative will talk to us. You don’t want to show this movie now at all.

Rinchen: No, it’s ok.

Robert: Ok.

Rinchen: It’s ok because many have seen that.

Robert: Rimpoche has already been better than a movie. Sort of taken care of that. No. See him on the tape.

0:02:40.7 Rinchen: Ah. Thank you very much. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak tonight. Before I begin my talk, I would like to tell you that I’m not 0:02:57.0 that smart(???). And I have a language problem, so I may, I mean, repeat again and again. I may make mistakes, so you all have to excuse me. Tibet, as you all know, and perhaps the two scholars may have told you that, I mean was a fully independent state for centuries. Area wise, Tibet is as big as, the half the size of entire Europe. But population wise Tibet is, I mean, small. We were only six million. And we still are six million. Tibetans are racially, linguistically, and culturally different from the Chinese. So, this, I mean. So, the state was invaded by China in 1950. The Tibetan government appealed to UN and other foreign countries, met with negligible response. Compelling the Tibetans to directly negotiate with the Chinese. So, in 1951, the Chinese forced Tibetans to sign a Seventeen Point Agreement. As Rimpoche has mentioned, under duress. However, this agreement guarantees to honor the existing political system in Tibet. And the status of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and also promises to. Not to, I mean, enter the religious practice and they promises to promote the living standard of Tibetans without compelling the Tibetans to accept Chinese reforms. So, the People’s Liberation Army initially attempted to be very courteous. However, as time went, by 1956 attacks on religious personages and institutions became so excessive in Eastern Tibet that people revolted. And in retaliation, the Chinese have bombed several religious and monasteries. Perhaps you may have heard that many of the monasteries in Kham, specially in Ganzi(?) and 0:06:33.0 (Ganzi??) Gonpa and also many Gonpas in 0:06:35.6 Litang(?) were bombed and completely destroyed by Chinese in early fifties.

0:06:48.2 Over the next few years, the Tibetan resistance organization called Chushi Gangdruk, the Four Rivers and Six Ranges was created effectively holding down the Chinese in much of the Eastern and the Southern part of Tibet. By 1959 thousands of volunteers from all over Tibet had founded the Volunteer National Defense Army. In 1959 the revolt had spread to Lhasa, Tibet’s capital. The entire population; men, women, children and monks rose against the Chinese. Took tried protect the person of His Holiness the Dalai Lama from an expected hit man by the Chinese. So, led by Lhasa underground resistance group and guerilla leaders from Kham and Amdo, the fully armed civilians confronted with the Chinese rapid fire machine guns for three days before the uprising was crushed. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, however, was carefully escorted to India. And some thousand Tibetans had. Sorry. Some hundred thousand Tibetans have managed to escape. Following the aborted uprising in Tibet a kind of martial law went into effect throughout Tibet. Tibet, once a peaceful buffer state between India and China, has been transformed into a vast military base. Holding at least three hundred thousand Chinese troops. By establishment of communes began throughout Tibet. The right to privacy vanished since then. For what two decades, home and individual had been hurt both by randomly and in organized campaign. All possessions were confiscated from door to door. Articles of value were sent to China and those for little value were distributed to the commune.

0:09:27.2 The first target was the statues. The statues made out of gold, silver and precious metals were sent to China. And then the scrolls. I mean, old paintings were sold into the shops in Hong Kong. And then, the second target was the 0:09:50.8 worse/wash thing(?). You conceals(?), like silver, silver pots, I mean, gold pots and large metals, all were confiscated. And then the Chinese also did not, I mean, spare the cooking utensils. Cooking materials, utensils made out of alloyed metals and made out of copper and brasses were all confiscated. For the last twenty years, from 1959 to 79, family members who lived in different parts of, I mean different Chinese designated zones of the city were not allowed to see each other. No Tibetan is allowed to give accommodation to travelers or visitors without permission from Chinese. And they were punished if they do not report the strangers travelling in their villages. For example, if someone wanted to go from Manhattan to Brooklyn to meet their relatives, he has to take the permission from the Manhattan police department. And then he; when he, I mean, gets the permission he cannot go and visit his friend direct, straightly in Brooklyn, He but has to go through the Brooklyn police authorities saying that he has come from Manhattan. And even up to completing all these formalities, his relatives cannot accept him. They have to again go and say that there. his 0:11:33.3 (sibling?) has come from Manhattan to meet him. This was the practice in Tibet. One out of ten Tibetans had been held in Tibet in prisons and forced labor camps to work for the construction of roads, dams, airfields and buildings. Most of them were beaten and tortured. People were arrested simply for being among; for being son of a rich man or a son of a noble family.

0:12:05.2 And no matter whether he has committed a crime or not. Like I think in 60’s in Samye alone, thousands and thousands people have died, which they called the 0:12:24.5 refuge(?) groups. We have a prayer in Tibetan, like, there’s a very common prayer dedicated to Guru Rimpoche. We call it the 0:12:36.2 Barche lamsel (?). In which it says, you know, like on such and such time and in such and such place, you the protector of mankind has defeated the evil spirits and put into and put them under your custody. Glorious. Pray to Guru Padmasambhava and OM BENZA GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUM. Something like that. So. I ,mean, Tibetans were not, I mean allowed to do the prayers, but they had expressed their grievance by composing. 0:13:23.8 (Takun ah heads(??) is written here. By composing, you know, 0:13:32.4 study cal plea(?). I mean, the best on this. Like, in Samye, many of the sons and daughters of noble families and rich people and many of the monks and the monastery officials left. Left, you know, arrested and they were put into a valley which was full of deserts. And most of them had died there. They were not fed properly. So, they say, you know, in the prayer they said, 0:14:16.8 (Tibetan: SAMYE Jigme tonkila). Which means, in the desert of, in the middle of the desert of Samye. 0:14:26.0 (Tibetan: Lo cho tam che tam la da) Directionally and the deserts sands are

Robert: Bond up

Rinchen: Yeah. Bound up. 0:14:34.7 (La la kon je lon le chi…) what is it?

Robert: pressing up

Rinchen: 0:14:44.3 Pressing up. (La lok ta ma do ne che) Sunlight pressing down to our. OM AH HUNG BENZA GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUNG. This prayer was, I mean, going on.

0:15:02.5 So. All in all, one point two million Tibetans, which is one sixth of the entire population died as direct result of the Chinese occupation. In 196o, the International Commissions of Jurists found that genocide was being committed in Tibet and that Sixteen Articles of Universal Declaration of Human Rights let been violated. The UN general assembly passed three resolutions condemning China for violation of fundamental human rights of the Tibetan people. And called on China to respect the Tibetan people’s rights, including their right to self-determination. In an effort to uproot Tibet’s religion and culture, the Chinese systematically destroyed six thousand two-hundred and fifty-four monasteries and temples. Eighty percent, during the reforms before that 1966 and the remaining twenty percent during the Cultural Revolution. Anything that is so far, unique Tibetan was destroyed. The Chinese did not spare, even the birds and the vast herds of unique beautiful Tibetan wild animals, like kiang, wild ass and 0:16:42.8 naur(?), which blue sheep and the drong which we called wild yak and so forth. And they all have been slaughtered often by the machine guns. Even area of virgin forest, covering the mountains and land of Eastern and Southern Tibet have been sheared off and sent to China. I’ve met a few Tibetans who had been back to Tibet to meet their relatives. And when they went to Tibet, they could not recognize their own, I mean, village. In many places the trees were completely, I mean, cut off and the streams, the rivers running to China were all, I mean, flooding with the trees, you know, cut down and then being sent to China. The changing Chinese leadership and the announcement of their new policies in Tibet in 1979 brought Tibet a little relaxation.

0:17:59.3 However, the Tibetans are still being treated like a second-class citizen in their own country. Discrimination and segregation officially and openly practiced. The Chinese policy of religious liberalization is merely superficial. Tibetans are allowed to rebuild some monasteries, but serious study of teaching or religion is forbidden. Only ten to fifteen new monks are allowed to enter a monastery each year. That’s why, one of the reasons that many of the young Tibetans from Tibet are coming to India to become monks. Like, when the Chinese had proclaimed the religious freedom in Tibet, many of the young Tibetans in Amdo and Kham have thought that now there is religious freedom in Tibet. So, as their, so the ancestors did. They left their native places and came all the way to Lhasa in order to become monks in Sera, Ganden and Drepung. And when they arrived at Lhasa, they are no more accepted in this monasteries. So, these people, people become very frustrated and they leave Tibet, and come to Nepal and India in order to become monks. Today, we have little more than two thousand, I think more than twenty-two hundred young Tibetans who have come to India in order to become monks. And the Chinese have outlawed 0:19:53.1 the recognition of incarnate lamas. And the Chinese say that the religious freedom; that means you have to like to practice religion, but you are not supposed to influence others to have faith with religion. Which this means is that the parents are not supposed to teach their children to believe in religion. And on the other hand, like, if someone is hoping for a good job in the government, he should surcease, you know, practicing religion or he should not have faith with the religion. Most of the Tibetans who had become party members, I mean, are not supposed to have faith, religion. Like they good keep the portrait of, you know, when Mao was threatening worshiped everywhere. They used to keep the portrait of Mao and at the backside they used to keep, I mean, His Holiness picture or picture of Tara, or Avalokiteshvara. During night they turn, you know, this way and daytime Mao’s portrait.

0:21:10.6 Education of Chinese children in Tibet is far superior to that available to Tibetans. Seventy percent of places in high education are reserved for the Chinese. This, I mean, in the paper, in the document, everything is beautiful in Tibet. Like they have certain quarters for children of Tibet to study in the University in China. But practically, when the selections are done, it’s always the children of the Chinese officials, or the Chinese settlers who get these opportunities to go to China to study, for further studies in the name of Tibetans. Even though sometimes, tests; tests are conducted, but that is always in Chinese language and the Tibetans have no chance to compete with the Chinese children. And in most of the schools there are two sections. Classes for the Chinese children and classes for the Tibetan children. And in most of the schools, the teachers are, I mean, not, I mean, qualified. Even though the Tibetans section has, I mean, in most schools, the best teachers and qualified teachers are, you know, sent to teach the Chinese section of the school. And, you know, teachers having bad reputation and having lowest qualifications are assigned to teach the Tibetan children. And if they find a good teacher in the Tibetan section, it is immediately transferred to the Chinese, Chinese section. Like in most of the schools, if you, you know, if you ask the number of the children, they will say if there is one thousand children in a certain school, they will say six hundred Tibetans and four hundred Chinese. Actually, the ratio is as such, but then if you really look how the children are being taught, then you find that six hundred are in the Chinese section of the school and only you know, four hundred are in the Tibetan section of the school.

0:24:04.9 Like, it has become a fashion to learn English both in China and Tibet these days. But Tibetan children are not taught English. For the Tibetans it’s compulsory to learn the Chinese language, but for those Chinese children who are in Tibet, for them it’s not compulsory to learn the Tibetan language. So, the Chinese say that, I mean, the Tibetans that, “You can learn English. If you want to learn English, you have to give up Tibetan language. That school can only have two subjects and Chinese is compulsory and if you want to learn English you can do so, but you have to leave the Tibetan.” This is, I mean, there. And then, and similarly for the vocational training. In the, I mean, at first, they have that, you know, sixty percent of the seats strictly reserved for the Tibetan children and only, you know, forty percent should go to the Chinese. But in reality, when the selection is done, the admission, they are always, you know, doing test in Chinese language. And when the final selection is done, it’s seventy percent, always seventy percent Chinese students and thirty percent Tibetan. Industries, by 1986, Tibet is said to have two hundred and seventy-two industries. These include a dairy plant that produces 0:26:10.5 tint(?) dried milk, leather factories and woolen mills. However, as with other industries, their products are taken out of Tibet to China, Hong Kong and Nepal. Perhaps you may have seen in Nepal, you know, beautiful Chinese blankets woven in Tibet, but such blankets are not seen in Tibet, although produced in Tibet. In official words, they are offered to the state. Such offerings are not only in product but also the profits. Lhasa radio on twenty-first February 1987 said 0:27:00.1 (Nyingchi spinning mill of cloth work???). has offered the state, a total amount of thirty-four point six million yuan as each profits within twenty years of its establishment.

0:27:12.8 So, the profits of countries are also taken to China. The population transfer. The transfer of Chinese to Tibet is reaching alarming proportion. The real fear is that if the present Chinese policy is successful, Tibetans will be reduced to a small and insignificant minority in their own country. The object of this policy is to forcefully resolve China’s territorial claims over Tibet by means of massive and irreversible population shift. In all major cities, Chinese today outnumber the Tibetans. In Lhasa there are hundred thousand Chinese civilians compared to fifty thousand Tibetans. The transfer has produced a thirty percent, three hundred percent inflation rate and two class society. Sadly divided around racial lines. And unprecedented unemployment among Tibetans. In the Lhasa valley for example, thirty thousand Tibetans have lost their jobs to the newly arrived Chinese. This was in 1984. At that time, the Chinese have sent sixty thousand people who come searching for so called forty-three projects in Lhasa. And immediately thirty thousand Tibetans who were working under sixteen labor unions have lost their jobs. And when these people have complained to Chinese why they have brought so many people, the answer was that these buildings are not going to be ordinary. These buildings are the ones which should be lasting for hundred and hundreds of years. So, the Tibetans do not have the skills to construct such buildings. On the other hand, Chinese say that the Tibetans have suffered in all societies. They haven’t got any education and that the Chinese have educated the Tibetans. They’re the ones then the skills. If the Chinese say that the, there is no enough scientists, there is no enough doctors or engineers in Tibet. They can say so. But if they say that, I mean, they don’t have enough Tibetan carpenters and enough Tibetan masons or enough Tibetan welders. Whose, I mean, it’s the fault of the Chinese, since they have occupied Tibet for thirty years, they should at least be able to produce, at least a few, you know, good carpenters and welders.

0:30:18.7 Because of all these human rights abuses in Tibet, two houses of United States Congress unanimously adopted legislation condemning/contending(?) the People’s Republic of China for its violation on human rights in Tibet and for its de facto military occupation of Tibet. The legislation acknowledges the holocaust brought by China during its thirty years of illegal dues. In September this year, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has invited to inform the members of the United States Congress of the current condition in Tibet and of his people’s hopes and aspirations for the future of Tibet. The Chinese embassy in Washington DC demanded that the US state department not allow the Chinese, not allow the Dalai Lama to make political statements while in Washington DC. The Dalai Lama has visited the states in an effort to construct a viable solution to the ongoing military occupation of our country. On September 20th he met with former President Jimmy Carter in France. On September 21st, despite a demand issued by the People’s Republic of China’s Washington embassy, that the Dalai Lama not be allowed to engage in political activities or make a statement with the Washington. In Washington, he announced a Five-Point Plan for peace. Peaceful resolution of Tibet’s future status. The cornerstone of the plan is the conversion of Tibet into a zone of peace, restoring the neutral buffer status enjoyed by it prior to 1950 invasion by communist China. The plan also called for a halt to the massive population influx of Chinese immigrants into Tibet. On September 24th, the Chinese staged a massive rally of fifteen thousand people in Lhasa to denounce the Dalai Lama’s political activity in the United States. 0:32:34.7 Kelsang Tashi(?), a Tibetan nationalist was executed at the rally. Two other Tibetan nationalists were sentenced to death. And eight others were imprisoned. Another Tibetan nationalist, Sonam Gyaltsen was executed on 25th. This was China’s response to His Holiness, the Dalai Lama’s Five-Point Peace Plan, announced at the Congressional Human Rights Caucus on 21st of September.

0:33:05.0 So, this is not only an insult to His Holiness, but also to the US Congress who gave an 0:33:11.2 all filings(?) for to His Holiness peace plan. Although the Chinese officials have accused His Holiness the Dalai Lama for instigating the demonstration in Tibet. But the fact is that the Chinese are responsible for these demonstrations. The peaceful demonstration on September 27th, led by monks of the Sera Monastery was direct reaction to the Chinese officials, the denunciation of His Holiness and the execution of Tibetan nationalists. This was followed by much greater demonstration on 21st and the 6th, during which time nineteen Tibetans were shot to death by the Chinese police. Now the Chinese have expelled all foreign journalists from Tibet. With no one to report to the outside world, the Chinese officials can have a free hand in arresting and killing Tibetans, as they have done in the past. We have learned from some sources that they have already conducted mass arrests in Lhasa. And we do not know much about the fate of these people. We are very concerned about their lives. Therefore, I would like to urge you to help, to write your Congressman in Washington and also to write the UN and so on. We also have the news that, you know, after that demonstration in Lhasa, the Chinese have formed, kind of propaganda 0:35:00.2 script(?). Now numbering about six hundred officials ranking above district levels. Around two hundred members of this 0:35:13.2 (?) are said to be very senior officials. The main ask of propaganda script(?) is to educate the people, so that another pro-independent demonstration is averted. Another task is to show Tibet as a part of China. This script(?) was sent from village to village to reeducate the people. And this script(?) was also sent from schools to school.

Audience: Sorry, What’s the word

Rinchen: Propaganda script.

Audience: What’s scribe?

Rinchen: Script

Robert: What 0:35:51.6 (???)

Rinchen: So, I pronunciation bad. So, this was sent from village to village to educate the people and also to, I mean, to stop further demonstrations.

0:36:08.3 So, they were in Lhasa, they were sent from school to school. In Lhasa middle school when this scribe(?) arrived, one of the Chinese students started the propaganda scribe(?). Then soon after, another Tibetan student rose up and then, you know, he has abused the Chinese student. This, you know, you know, then in the meantime the words exchanged to and fro, leading to, you know, a quarrel between the Chinese student and Tibetan students. And we have to report that the Chinese have 0:36:54.0 urged(?) that forty to fifty children in Lhasa middle school and fate of these students are not known. And on the other hand, the Chinese are trying to organize, kind of counter demonstration. Was trying to prove that the early demonstrations were led by a few elitist, what they call, few, elitist.

Robert: elitist

Rinchen: Yes, elitist. They are said to be moving from village to village to organize a counter demonstration which was supposed to have taken place sometime in October. But they have failed. Many of the Tibetans have, I mean, denied to go into the demonstration. But they have taken lots of signatures which they did, you know, from door to door. Saying, “Do you support the pro-independence demonstration?” You know, something like that. So, many of the Tibetans, they were afraid to say that they support, but they have 0:38:08.40 signed(?). But the Chinese. The Chinese are said to be still, you know, trying to have a march, rally, or have a kind of counter demonstration. So. I can’t.

Robert: Perhaps people will have some questions.

Rinchen: Yes

Robert: Questions, a few? Do you have any questions? Yes.

Audience: Are the borders open? Can people flee Tibet and leave the country? Or?

Rinchen: This I forgot to tell you. Once again, the border is closed. Specially for the tourists. The Chinese have announced that they will allow the group tourist to within Tibet. But the result had, so far they haven’t issued with that even to the group tourists.

Audience: Are there ways to leave?

0:39:11.6 Rinchen: Those who were in Tibet during the demonstration, they have all left the country.

Audience: They have

Rinchen: They’re out. And then, on top of this the Chinese have stopped, you know tightened, the movement of Tibetans within the country. Just as I mentioned to you earlier, that they didn’t 0:39:29.9 fit in(?), one, you know, travelling from, even within one district, one travelling from upper town to lower town had to take the permission. So, this is again, you know, now being introduced, like people from Lhasa are not allowed to travel to the West without a special permission. And similarly, people from the west were not allowed to travel to Central Tibet without any; a special permit. And also, for Kham and Amdo, people were not allowed to visit Lhasa without a special permit. As if they are travelling to another country.

Audience: Is there a way from China inter marriage?

Rinchen: Yes. The Chinese do encourage inter marriage.

Audience: Also, what ?? has taken place?

Rinchen: Very few. Very few Tibetan women have got married with the Chinese. There are people, I mean, who get married because of, you know, the 0:40:50.9 (pressing need???), like in Lhasa, you know, you may have seen. Some of you may have gone to Tibet or some of you may have seen reporters. You know, the Chinese section of the town is completely different from the Tibetan section of the town. The Chinese are having, you know, living in better apartments. They have running water. They have toilet facilities. Where the Tibetans are still ,you know, in the old section of the town. And the schools also, as I have mentioned to you. I mean there are different facilities.

0:41:32.5 Audience: This is a question for fred(?????). about donations. Seems to be very full. ??. You said before that the question, a rather short term need for borax. Was billed as being the explanation for critical decision the Chinese made to Tibetan settlers. In this time off, in 1950. My question is, the reaction to the tragedy, which is so clear. Can you explain them by the national interest of China in a meaningful long term sense? It is not adequate. It’s not really the question. Is there adequate explanation from a meaningful rational self-interest of the Chinese. Because it seems to me that a lot of people who have studied this, who have committed this tragedy, somehow appears that what you have here is a conflict of interest. And I think to me that what you may have is conflict of. It’s not a conflict of interest but sort of Incredibly at odds with the fault. But ultimately does not have any sense of direction at all. And if that’s true than it seems to be there ought to be somewhat, the story has to be told that way. Rather than a story that they’re trying to believing right or leaving a buffer for the Russians. It seems to be oddly irrelevant to the whole situation. I’m just pretty sure it’s. But you see it as a conflict of Chinese national interest or it’s a conflict with an atmosphere of disintegration. Of rational focus. Helpful Chinese some untold amount of Chinese prayer. Of tribes on the border. Going back hundreds of centuries, Chinese 0:44:01.7 (??) are border people. Again not small amount at all of rational self-interest. (??)

0:44:08.6 Rimpoche: I have giving some. I have giving you one of the reasons. And that the priority, what they choose before going to Taiwan to Tibet was perhaps one of the reasons why the interest on that. And that some, that some proof for that too. However, that not only the reason. That’s not only the reason. There are tremendous amount of reasons behind this. Number one. If I’m wrong, please tell me. But Chinese always believe or say that Tibet is part of China. And Chinese, ever since you look in their history. Whenever they can catch up, they say the exact part of everything. It’s a close area. Wherever you go. And. And they, I don’t know. The leaders, they think the unity of all their different nationalities, they sort of used to point on five fingers. The Ming, the Hans, and the Mongols, and the Tibetans and all this. And they sort of think it is unity of the one of the strongest, symbolically strong of China. And it is strategically very important.

Audience: Strategically

Rimpoche: Yeah. Strategically very important to, to expand the power over Asia. All Asia. And maybe the whole world. And believe me or not, at that time, the Chinese leaders do have the desire to expanding their power to the rest of Asia. And it’s so important for that. And all this. All this are the main reasons. And why they have to conquer and they conquered Tibet.

Robert: Do you have anything to add? Rinchen-la

Rinchen: No.

Robert: If you have anything to add to this question

Rinchen: No. Not a thing.

Robert: I want to add one thing.

Rinchen: Please

Robert: In your question you said, an archaic thought pattern you know. Archaic you meant, I think. Archaic. You know. Old fashioned. Is that what you meant? You know, it’s rational self-interest or non-rational self-interest.

Audience: Actually

Robert: You were

Audience: Actually both The archaic

Robert: Right.

Audience: consider people modern

Robert: That’s right.

Audience: They’re not, but they, this concept of controlling

0:46:56.6 Robert: Right. Right. Well, I think. I would say that, that what you’re saying. Your question seems to me to be feeling towards something that is. One of the reasons there is some kind of hope about it. About the situation of Tibet. Actually, for the future. And that is that, what Rimpoche said, It is true that Mao Zedong had a fantasy of liberating all of Asia and some, you know. And joining with the Russians at first. And the wave of international communism, liberating the whole world, actually. So, Tibet is a necessary staging area to reach to India and which is another huge population area. Right? India. Pakistan. And the Middle East and so on. And so, there was part of his sweep through the world. The question of the borax, to make aluminum. Aluminum was simply a matter of priority. Do we get 0:47:47.9 (?) first? And that’s also again probably a matter of China’s internal documents. See, one of the tricky things about this that is always the case, is that China, what they tell themselves, within their internal memos and documents throughout their history is totally different from what you see outside. When someone goes to Beijing from ancient times, the people who are going there from their point of view, are going to go to trading or do something like that. And the Chinese thought, “Ah, they came over to surrender. Or they came over to pledge their undying tribute.” And so and so, you know. The Chinese write inside for their own consumption, sort of, to praise themselves, that this is; that something happened that is not all what the other person perceived. And so this is the kind of rhetoric that they have tried to refer to, to bolster their claim about Tibet. And the other point I want to say is that, in this 0:48:38.5 hierarchic(?) thing, the hierarchic(?) thing is very specific. It is not just a general thing. The fact is that the Manchu empire, not the Chinese empire, but the Manchu empire was the biggest Asian empire, parallel in time to the British empire. Right? The biggest Western empire. The Manchu empire was a huge empire and its one that called itself a empire over four races; Mongol, Manchu, Han and Tibetan. And they didn’t quite count Hui towards the 0:49:08.0 original(?) there. There was these Hui groups(?) which the modern Chinese talked. Now for example, the 0:49:12.6 Wuhan(?) Song(?) and then later the Red Chinese were furious with the Russians. Because the Russians went in and liberated quote unquote Mongolia. For Mongolia was not their some sort of loose federation of the Manchu empire they felt should belong to them. Because although they revolted against the Manchu empire and they threw out the Manchu empire they genocided the Manchus totally in revenge for being conquered by them. They still want to claim that the Manchu empire was the Chinese empire. So, that is a totally archaic mode of thinking. And clearly does not fit into the modern world in the situation of self-determination and so forth. And as far as this whole terrible process. For example India faces a similar thing It has Punjabi. It has 0:49:56.6 people at(?) Assam. It has the Southern India, you know. This sort of cognitive European nationalist foisted upon extremely pluralistic Asian people is a very difficult business, as we’ve seen.

0:50:07.7 And so Tibet is a kind of example of that. The question of long-term self-interest of China. There’s no question that Tibet has a lot of valuable things. John Avedon was good at pointing that out. It has forty to fifty percent of the natural resources, natural resources of all of China. Mineral resources are located in Tibet, for example. So, when they look to the future of; when they have industrial capacity and they want to mine and they want things, that Tibet is something. It’s a prized possession to them. It’s a huge colony to them that could be very valuable they feel. But the hope is that they may realize that it is too late. So, the Portuguese prized Angola. They thought it was really nice. You know, the British locked in there. They thought it was. But now, subsequently they began to realize and the modern situation, it is too expensive. Let’s not talk about morality. It is too expensive to try to suppress a native people’s aspirations for self-determination. And it’s much better business to let them be free and then do business with them and hopefully once you get them hooked. Because they start out at poor level. You drive a hard bargain. You make loans at high interest. You get favored data in your investments. And you can still do well on an economic colonialist tour. An economic level And the self-interest of the Chinese will be much better served by the economic dealings, rather than this attempt at military colonial dealing. And so, that is the hope. That intent was for the, behind the question of, is there for a hope. And it doesn’t have to be a permanent collision of rational self-interest between the Tibetans’ wish for self-determination and the Chinese wish for colonial domination. The wish for colonial domination should be in the modern world, revealed to be unrealistic and impractical and not therefore ultimately in China’s self-interest. My feelings, for example, an old Tibetan question is that it’s basically a PR question to get. It’s a PR battle that is going on. And finally, the Chinese hierarchy, 0:52:08.8 (??) . they would be informed, I think, finally by a radical PR consultant that the best thing to do would be to liberate Tibet. That would be the cheapest ad that you could make for China. Instead of buying time in 0:52:20.6 NBC(?), it would be cheaper to tell lies. It would be cheaper to liberate Tibet. And show off that. And buy 0:52:27.0 NBC to show you letting them free in some degree, at least. That’s the cheapest thing you could do. And that’s where you really get what you want to buy with PR, which is a good image, you see. It’s true, the information age is such that it seems to be impossible to have a good image and be killing people and suppressing them. It just ruins your image. So, forget about it on a moral level. It’s a pure Madison Avenue level. And it’s the more they get into Madison Avenue, the more hope there is, it seems to me. If that is what is underlying your question. Society of radical self-interest. Yes.

0:52:57.6 Audience: Yes, there seems to be a series of parallels between Tibet and Afghanistan and the Soviet Union and American and Nicaragua.

Robert: Yes.

Audience: Nicaragua

Robert: Yes

Audience: That 0:53:08.1 infers (?) an almost kind of parallel symbolical events which show us that you can’t import an alien master culture into a subservient culture and expect it to work in some fashion. So, I’m wondering if it’s possible on some sort of global level for people to see the equivalence and failure to

Robert: Umhmm

Audience: that is implied in these outrageous situations.

Robert: Right. Right. I agree and I hope you’re right.

Audience: Yes.

Audience 2: I know that is true, the only thing that really terrifying to think that there are more Chinese in Tibet than there are Tibetans.

Robert: Yes

Audience 2: I mean we’re talking PR and that’s fine and we could probably win the PR battle both in Nicaragua and Afghanistan and in Tibet. But when you have a Chinese totally outnumber the Tibetans

Robert: Right

Audience 2: We’re talking about a very slow process of killing out a culture. Which no PR can handle. I mean, it’s not something that our. We can rant and rave and maybe we’ll be heard because the Americans will want to do business with the Chinese and the Chinese want to do business with the Americans.

Robert: Right

Audience 2: Maybe we’ll try to make some concessions. But if the Chinese continue to move into Tibet the majority, as is happening in Cyprus with the Turks moving into Cyprus. Cyprus will now become a Turkish island

Robert: Right

Audience 2: Tibet will become predominantly Chinese. Both racially and culturally, intellectually it will be predominantly Chinese. Therefore, how do we, I mean, what you’re saying I would love to believe what you’re saying. But I don’t understand how you get the Chinese to go back to China.

Robert: Right. Well, what I. Well, that’s what I’m saying. I’m saying it’s PR thing now. What you’re saying is this thing about their attempt to continue the genocide. The population transfer is on the list of the genocidal policies in the world courts. You know. That’s a form of genocide; by population transfer. It’s called. That’s where the expression comes from. Now, there again, there’s a question. Can the. That they must be weighing in their minds the policymakers. What they’re hoping to try to do is quickly, quickly, let’s kill all the Tibetans. And then we won’t have a problem. Ok. That’s the idea. Right? Well, let’s just close the border for a few weeks and kill off all the Tibetans. But the thing is, can they kill off all the Tibetans in this 0:55:19.2 group? And do you really think that they think that they can get away with that today. And if they did, what would happen to Hong Kong and Taiwan and their intent to have relations with the rest of the world? Do they really think for example that the state department will sit by, even will continue their back scratching policy and overturn, against the Congress of our country for example. Or the British is the same. The Germans are the same. And even the Japanese I think would give the. Do they think they can kill off all Tibetans? Well, what I’m saying is, I don’t think that they will think seriously that they can kill off all the Tibetans. Quick. They have to do it very quick. Like a three-week policy. Like you know, better. They have to have a better logistic than even Hitler and Goebbels 0:55:57.6 (??) enduring and all these people managed. They had ten years to send people and trains and ovens and so forth. They had long time.

0:56:03.5 And they still couldn’t kill every; all the Jews. How can they kill all the Tibetans? And how do they expect to be treated by the rest of; 0:56:10.3 insatiable(??). So, I don’t think first of all we, that’s the sort of; taking that imaginatively to this sort of extreme level. It doesn’t seem to me that they think they can do that. If they don’t think they can do that, then they can just keep trying to tinker the way they’re doing. They can put out. I brought him here because I thought you all should just see; we all should just look at it. We don’t really have time, although we’re going late. Here’s the Beijing review, announcing the north American edition of the Beijing Review. I just received it in the mail this morning. Big smile by Li Peng. Very big smile. Look at those teeth. Really good dentist, you know. And he. There’s an article on page twenty-two about it all, We love the Tibetans. We educating them. We’re sending them to hospitals. Picture of a hospital put up to see it. I think they are really making an effort, you know. And they’ll continue that, but there’s a degree where. There’s a credibility gap. Generates more and more. And they have to spend more and more to try to do it. I’m sure this cost. It’s costly. It has color reproductions. It’s very costly. They go on with that. And they do more of the other. It is going to cost them a lot. Also, for example, the reasons they could have. Mao Zedong said, when he conquered in 1950, he would have ten million Chinese in Tibetans, within a matter of months. And you know he’s got a lot of Chinese to ship around. He has quite a surplus of people. That’s one thing he has. He had. Well, he never sent ten million there. He sent in a bunch; four or five million right away, into the outside parts of Tibet. You know, in Amdo, which he doesn’t, which he pretends, they pretend is not Tibet. But I mean, it’s the outer part of Tibet. And they did that right away. But they couldn’t send much up on the plateau. Why? Because they couldn’t afford to support them up there. They are not actually very well off, Chinese. You know think they’ve been all developed and they’ve made a miracle, but they have not made a miracle. They don’t have toilets to pee in. Very often. Very many of them don’t. Still. And so, they’re not at all in good shape. They can’t afford. Now the only thing that was enabling them to afford, to get people up into the highlands lately is the tourist industry. How good will the tourist industry go with yearly riots in Lhasa? And some sort of yearly disturbance. And the Tibetans being sullen and mad and unhappy. And everybody who goes there seeing miserable looking Tibetans. And Tibetans pulling them aside and giving them six letters to the UN and so forth. Which is what happened. You don’t even have to know Tibet and then you; everyone who goes there except a few state department people, who think that there are no Chinese there. You know, they are like, like really. Otherwise, everyone who goes there and I think the Chinese keep them drunk all the time. They give them all of this 0:58:36.8 (nao tai??) or this grain alcohol. They are so drunk they don’t know whether they’re in Tibet or in like Florida, or what. They don’t know where they are. And so otherwise, it’s a miserable thing. And the tourist industry is down the tubes. You know.

Audience 2: I’m trying to really see it depending on the tourist industry.

Robert: Oh yeah. To keep the highland occupied the way they’re trying to. That’s the only job. For this, you know, thirty thousand. This is for tourist business mainly in the Central Tibet, I’m talking about.

0:59:01.8 So, I’m saying in the long term, if we speak out. In other words, if the world, if the world keeps speaking out and that China has to keep convincing the world, they will realize that it’s cheaper to start behaving decently to the Tibetans, rather than do this. This is the hope. In my opinion. But it. But if the world ignores this and says, “Sure. Go off. Kill off all the Tibetans.” Then that of course won’t work. Yes.

Audience 2: I should say. is the choice whether to do, what they tried to do now in South Africa, where people are thinking about economic sanctions

Robert: That’s right.

Audience 2: I mean, that has to be, you know. That to me that is, you know, the only way that people really do it.

Robert: Well, that was a Congress is heading, you see. And the executive branch is not all caught up to that.

Audience 2: One thing. Because I know from talking with business people. There is a way. Make the change with business with China great tax deductions.

Robert; But. Great tax deductions. Yes, that’s

Audience 2: China. Both tax

Robert: Oh yeah. But. One thing that; the halo, the rosy glow on that honeymoon is a little bit dissipated now because those people have not realized any dollars out of that. They’s all hopes for the future. Even the Japanese, I found this out through my 1:00:11.4 contract(?), who go into Tibet, China, is full of Toyotas and Nissans. Totally full of them and there’s millions of them. But you know, the Chinese, the Japanese central bank has to make huge loans to buy them. So, now they owe money. But they still didn’t realize actual cash out of it. It’s all like a hopeful thing, you see. And when they realize that their dealing with a government that does not honor its commitments. Like they don’t honor its commitments to the Tibetans. Like it doesn’t treat people decently when it doesn’t have to. And their doctrines, you see. Our people in our industrial zone there have not made any money. No. A few tourists things have made money. But not the, not the American, even in China I’m talking about. In China. They haven’t made any money. There’s people who went from Taiwan and made tons of factories back in their homes state of 1:01:01.5 Fujian(?) where many of them came from. And they’re all totally involved in red tape. They’ve gone bankrupt four times. It’s terrible. Because this. They’re in a system where there’ s no notion of sort of profit and honoring the individual’s earning and this and that. You know it’s a matter of sort of bureaucratic thing. A new official gets some and he comes and rewrites the contract. When you take a taxi in Beijing, you have to make five contracts. Every three blocks. As you get nearer your destination and further from where you were, and a little more defenseless, there’s a new contract. Another double price. You have to sit and be ready to get out. And you get ridiculous if you’re out and jump clear. I’m going to get out. And they still renegotiating the contract. It’s been for five hours driving. And this is the way. What a. What question business, the Japanese businesses have found there. And this is endemic. I mean, this is all interconnected. It’s like, you behave that way to some poor people who you have under your heel and you behave that way with business partners. You behave that way with everybody.

1:02:02.3 Audience 3: Isn’t maybe it too the anartic(??) crisis.

Robert: Yeah. They’re anartic(???) is very unfriendly. Anartic(???) doesn’t; has no respect for initiative. We would go in. And the people even in the central tourist agency would be held wringing their hands. And they would say, “Oh. We want to have a good tourist business. But people won’t come back twice.” Why? Because our people have no idea of helping the other people. And we didn’t know what he meant, because we just got there. Then we knew. We’d go into a restaurant. And you go into this restaurant. There’s like fifteen waiters, like in India. Or twenty. But do they come up to you and say, “Would you like a? Thirsty? Would you like?” No. they didn’t talk over there in the corner. They say, on another table. We’d say, “Please. Do I have to 1:02:39.9 cheat(?)? Do I have to cheat(?)? (???)” You know. We want some food. And they finally come over and they say, “Do you want something? “ Yeah. Throw something at you, you know. And leave. Or if they come, they say, “We’re closed. Go the other place.” They’re not. You’re not going to tip them. They know it. They can’t get a tip. If you tip them, you’d all be arrested. They’re not going to. They can’t be fired. They can’t be promoted. And. And they also know that your tourist company outside has already pre-paid everything to the Chinese government, who’s not going to give them the money. And so, you can’t get the money back. You can’t get up and say, “Give me our money back.” They laugh. Because they didn’t even get your money. The money is in Beijing in some bureaucracy. And they. They negotiated such a bad contract. Our tourist people even you see. And so, who goes back twice? The most rabid China phile1:03:29.1 doesn’t go back there. Only the official tours, because they showed the people who don’t wait on the official tours. And they keep everybody drunk all the time. So, they love it. They say, “China’s a miracle.” You see. But. But this, this whole way of behaving. This is why Deng Xiaoping and Zhao Ziyang are trying to talk about the poor modernization. This is why. They’re not going it because they had some brilliant insight on Mount, whatever it is that this is the new Marx. They’re doing it because the other one is not working at all. It doesn’t deliver the simplest service. It’s a complete chaos. 1:03:59.6 Anarchic front (??). Yes. Excuse me.

Rimpoche: Eighty percent still don’t have

Robert: good .Yes. The lady in the back. Yes.

Audience: 4: It seems to me there’s some kind of critical timetable. Because these Chinese children born in Tibet will grow up, be adults there. How. They’re not 1:04:13.5 children at the age born (?). And I wonder what you thought that time period was

Robert: The time period of the population transfer destroying Tibet. Five years, ten years, three years. What do you think?

Rinchen: Time period

Robert: Time period which is still possible to save Tibet.

Rimpoche: 1:04:28.5 Tibetan:….)

Robert: Crystal ball.

Rinchen: China. Chinese children born in Tibet, I mean, do not become Tibetans. Like, as I told you earlier, they are not obliged to learn the Tibetan language. They’re, although they are born in Tibet, I mean, they still remain as Chinese. They do not.

Robert: Yeah

Rinchen: It is not necessary for them to respect the Tibetan way of life. It is not necessary for them to learn Tibetan language. So, I mean, they still are very much Chinese.

1:05:14.9 Robert: Right.

Rinchen: But, on the other hand, the most, I mean, dangerous thing is like, as a I told you that, although there are certain quarters for the Tibetan students to study, you know. In. In the colleges in Beijing and Shanghai. But, you know, when the selection is done it’s the children of the Chinese people who got, who get this opportunity. And on the other hand, in the past they have sent a few Tibetan children to be educated in China, hoping that when these people come back to Tibet they will be against the Tibetan culture. They will not have faith with the Buddhism. But this, you know, they failed. And when these people came to Tibet, they were more, I mean, nationalist. They had more faith with the religion. So, what. Now, the Chinese have changed their policy. They have now decided to send children, you know, just after completing the primary level. In Tibet they have the lower primary level and upper primary level. The lower primary level is up to third class. And upper one is after fifth class. And every year, they select the most, I mean, bright children up to completing third class. And children of you know, children between eight to thirteen years old are being sent to China, away from their family. And family members are not allowed. I mean, the children are not allowed to come back to Tibet to meet their relatives. But their family members are supposed to be allowed to go to, you know, Beijing once after three years to meet their children. So, these, these are, I mean, to try to, you know, root up the Tibetan culture.

Robert: Right. Yes, I saw them in trucks going from 1:07:15.3 chun gye(?). Very depressing sight. These kids in these big trucks. Yes, you wanted to say, You have something to say. this black coat lady.

Audience 5: Yes. But I wanted to just think. Hearing a question.

Robert: Yes

Audience 5: and not mean to not be that the Chinese were becoming Tibetan, but they are becoming people born in the ways of the land in Tibet become aware. there are all these misplaced people that have been moved. This happened a long time ago in northern Ireland and it happened in this country. We came over here. All of us.

Robert: Correct

Audience 5: And a lot of them Americans that comes back to that question again. How long does it take. There are a lot of Chinese. And there are. It’s way becomes easy for the Chinese because of their numbers.

1:08:16.1 Robert: Right. This is. This was brought up in the Congress. This is a real challenging kind of thing. People say. One guy in Congress said, to His Holiness even he said, 1:08:26.5 To me this is great, you’re giving rise to something. And we’ll work on this. And we’re very happy to support you, Your Holiness about human rights violations and this sort of thing, he said. But what can we really do about China in the long run, he said. He said, “For example, who could expect us to give back that American thing to the Indians?” He said this. This congressman. And this seems to appeal to Europe. Euro-American, with some sort of sense of force, in that they feel like they own their land as their plot and this and that, you know. But I don’t have. And His Holiness had nothing to say about it because, you know, that’s the American thing, you know. It’s an old thing. Several hundred years. But I have something a little radical to say about that, you know, myself. And. But I think I better do it in relation to a story. Well, the story that’s coming to my mind is the story when I went up to this one Tibetan lama. 1:09:13.9 Nechung (?) Rimpoche. If you allow me to tell the story in relation to the. And 1:09:18.7 Gomang Khen (?) Rimpoche. Two lamas who were here about eleven years ago. I see 1:09:23.0 in there. With me at that time. And we were in the Tonawanda, an Indian reservation belonging to the Seneca nation in western New York state. And we met their chief, whose name was Beeman Logan. And a medicine man whose name was Mad Bear. And we were having this kind of talk. And I had this funny. I was in this funny situation. I was translating the talk because neither of those lamas spoke English. So, I was the invisible man in that situation. Because. And the Indians were behaving a little differently than they usually do, because they were talking to some Tibetans. And they didn’t notice me, kind of, you know. They were. There was no white man there in some way, you know. I was a little invisible. And it was quite astounding the way they were talking to the Tibetans. To me. And especially when one of them started telling the history. And he said, “Well, you know.” He said, “We’ve been here, you know.” Telling his own thing, you know, as he was listening to the Tibetans talk about their situation in China. He said, “Yeah, well, we’ve been through a lot of things that. Well. Two hundred years we had a bunch of Scandinavians around here. Sitting on top of us, “ He said. Then he said, “For another two hundred years we had a bunch of Dutch. Then for two hundred years we had the English.” He said. “And now,” he said, “The last two hundred years we’ve had the Americans.” He said. “Seems to me they always only last for two hundred years. We’re wondering what’s coming next.” And I suddenly realized.

Audience: Tibetans

Robert: Yeah. It’s a possibility. Then I suddenly realized that as far as they were concerned, that this is still their land, you know. And there may be millions of people running in and out of it. You know, like you might have a house and it might be filled with roaches or something. Or, you know, it might be filled with ants or termites or something, you know. But it’s still your house. You know. They may eat the house down to the very bottom, you’re still sitting there.

1:11:09.4 And so, I totally realized that in the; he was being though not aware of an American. He wasn’t being sensitive to my presence. Because he was talking. I was just the interpreter. But I realized that then this come down therefore to the question of legitimacy. We Americans are here, you know. For example, he said to this lama. To this lama, he said, “I’m happy you came up here, so we can welcome you to the United States.” He said. “You’ve had a lot of welcomes, I’m sure from white people down there on that concrete island.” He said. “But they don’t know how to welcome you to the United States. They didn’t arrive in the United States yet.” He said. “They don’t know the 1:11:43.4 (??) why.” He says, “We have a dragon underground here. Out here in Tonawanda bay. Just in that lake. And we have this creature here and there. And we know where’s this dragon and to welcome you, you have to say hello to the dragon. Otherwise, the dragon is grumbling down there, this vast force underground. And you’re walking around as an interloper on the dragon’s back. We know how to intercede with the dragon. We’re going to welcome you. You’re going to have a nice trip and a nice time. It’s not that the white people wouldn’t want to welcome but they don’t know where they are themselves. Why? Because they never dealt with us and to us with the dragon. You see.” Now this maybe a little too far out for everybody, but it relates to another thing, you know. This business of timetable that you ask. There’s. Those who are, you know, trying to counsel the Tibetans right now. You know, westerners who are trying to advise them and friends of the Tibetans. And there’s this notion of urgency and panic and 1:12:32.6 (???) judge. Which is all very proper actually. On the human rights level, I mean. One person being tortured, it’s a rush to sort of, get some. Get some Novocain, you know, to stop the torture. Get the dentist’s drill out of their, you know, finger joint, or whatever the people are doing to them. You know. That’s the rush. Sure. Should be. But when they say the Dalai Lama. Well, he’s got four years, you know, by mathematics. And the Tibetans will be smothered. Or two years. Or five years. Or ten years. And so and so says, “Oh no, no. Don’t tell me we’ve got ten years. We have as long as it takes. We are here, you know.” The Tibetan nation exists. We exist. Wherever we are we’re here. We exist. And he has a certain unshakable sense of that. As do the Tibetans in India, who understand their culture and their dharma and so on. And they have plenty of time. Because it’s a. It’s some kind of thing about legitimacy. You know.

Audience 6: 1:13:24.9 (??) in the nineteenth century

Robert: It’s a mystical thing. I think. Excuse me?

Audience 61:13:27.9 (??) in the nineteenth century. A look at Greece over a period of, what? Four centuries.

Robert: Yes. I was delighted that some wrote in a local Amherst newspaper in response to something or other, around the time of all these demonstrations. Something that I really liked. They said, ‘The Chinese are now beginning to learn the painful lessons that it took the British six hundred and fifty-two years to learn.” And I thought, what is six hundred and fifty-two years? Six hundred and fifty-two years is the time the British occupied Ireland. Trying to assimilate Ireland. You know. I mean, they still. They still have got a little foothold on the north, where there’s a big problem there. And it’s only a matter of time, I think, and they’re going to have to leave. But the most; the rest of Ireland. They made strenuous efforts to assimilate You know, through genocide population transfer. They tried everything. And they had six hundred and fifty-two years and they finally quit.

1:14:16.7 Audience 6: ????

Robert: Yes

Audience 7: I was wondering about what the reason is that the skirmishes on the Chinese; on the Tibetan Indian border and all the troops there. And if that grows that can also bring public attention. But then in India, which we have much more contact with. Perhaps, you know. How far do you have to go. And what do the Chinese want? 1:14:43.8 (?)

Rinchen: The border situation was, I mean, as you know, very tense and early this year fifteen of March, April. But then since then, both countries have tried to diffuse the tension there. And they do not put not much use on it. But perhaps it could be, you know, the Chinese have tried to, you know, what they. Tried to indicate that they have border problem with India. Maybe so as to justify the presence of a huge, I mean, military in Tibet.

Robert: Right. Partly. Yeah. Partly. Also they

Rinchen: one of the reasons

Robert: They. Their pretend. They. It could be that. I mean, they claim that, that area is ethnically Tibetan. Which it is. Power not so 1:15:39.9 (?). From the time India made it into an official state and not just a region, they began to pressure there and to complain. To pressure India. But remember their larger motive to pressure India, of course, is that through frightening India they want to muzzle His Holiness from India. They want His Holiness not to be allowed to speak up. They don’t want India recognizing the Tibetans or helping their cause. And they’re been effective in that policy for a long term. They’ve pretty much squelched Indians. Although the Indians have been very generous in sheltering the Tibetans. And continue to be so. They have never given then international support. They’ve. They’ve inherited this double policy that Rimpoche was talking about. On the one hand they treat the Tibetans directly face to face one way. And with others, third party, they treat them differently. And so, China is always there to threaten. China could easily, they feel. The Indians are afraid that China could easily, like, sweep into Northern Kashmir and in that piece of the border. And this way, they effectively control India’s treatment of the Dalai Lama internally. That is clearly a motive of this I see too. But the justifying of the military presence within Tibet of course, another strong possibility. With Tibet would be well within their own, to each other, you know. The hardliners and the 1:16:49.3 policy (?) are justifying the soft-liners and economic people are saying, why are we spending so much money doing that, you see. And they have to have a scrap now and then. Because they have the most incredible border fortifications around the borders of India and Nepal. They have incredible underground tunnels and complexes. They have fantastic complex missile installation. I mean they really are dug in up there.

1:17:13.1 Yes.

Audience 8: When I think politically I get very depressed. When I think very far out, like you were just beginning to get there, I’m not so depressed

Robert: Right

Audience 8: And one of the consequences of the awful occupation of Tibet was that these streamers of Tibetan culture swept out into the world

Robert: Right

Audience 8: The people that are with us tonight are an example.

Robert: Right

Audience 8: And when I. I was in the 1:17:37.1 (tsolo tuku) area for about three weeks. And I had the most amazing dreams I’ve ever had in my life. Sleeping above fourteen fifteen thousand feet.

Robert Yeah. I did in Lhasa too.

Audience 8: I wonder what those Chinese are dreaming.

Robert: Nightmares.

Audience 8: Then I wonder about the whole, the whole supernatural pantheon. And in the atmosphere

Robert: Right

Audience 8: Atmosphere where they exist. And I like very much the idea of sleeping dragon. Because I think North American continent. We’re all becoming North American Indians and shamans.

Robert: Yeah.

Audience 8: It’s happening slowly. But it’s happening.

Robert: Yes. Well, we have to deal with the place somewhere somehow. And yes. What.

Audience 9: I have one historical question that I”d like

Robert: Yes

Audience 9: Why, Rimpoche, Reting Rimpoche abdicate to Taktra Rimpoche

Rimpoche: ???

Audience 9: ???

Robert: Go on retreat. Go on retreat. He wanted to meditate.

Audience 9: Why did he go on retreat? Is that what he did?

Robert: Yeah. That is a big thing. Yeah. The Thirteenth Dalai Lama did a big retreat for three years.

Rinchen: But it was more educated

Audience 10: 1:18:48.4 (?) that it was prophesized that the current Dalai Lama would be the last one. Why is this thought to be so?

Rimpoche: I do not know whether the mental practice here will have same view as what I think.

Robert: Well, good.

Rimpoche: I think

Robert: Just think.

Rimpoche: I think. I don’t know what. It is not here. In one place I agree question. Maybe it is. It isn’t here. If it’s not here, then it has to be 1:19:22.3 otherwise(?). Anyway, very recently I encountered that question in one of the big. Probably it’s not 1:19:28.7 (?). So, what happened is, I wish I remembered what I had. So, there is a thought that this Dalai Lama is the last Dalai Lama. It goes carried on here among the Westerners. So far, two, three years. And then they even say, the prophesies and this and that and all this. And I’ve never like to believe that. I never like to believe that way.

1:20:00.0 And then what happens is. Oh yeah. What happen. Sorry. I saw a video interview with His Holiness. And in that interview, it mentioned since you , this is the last Dalai Lama, interview, (????) someway number one. And His Holiness is asking this interview, “Sure. Sure.” They say, “What happened?” And then His Holiness replied “If the institute of the Dalai Lama is useful, it will be there and if institute of the Dalai Lama is no longer useful it will not be there.”

Robert: Right

Rimpoche: That is what

Robert: He said that

Rimpoche: He answered that. And then another thing is. The reason I was watching a videotape of His Holiness visit to 1:21:00.5 New York (?) museum. It was a couple of years ago. I don’t know what. I was just going through that tape. And I saw it. Then I watched it. And he was giving talk on deity yoga. In that he said, he said. In that he had said, “ if the institute of the Dalai Lama is useful, the Dalai Lama should be 1:21:27.1 (?). And the Dalai Lama will be born (?) three lives(?) two to three he will(??) So that means. He was saying the Dalai lama will be reborn in three life, number one. Number two, indirectly what he is saying is, Fourteenth Dalai Lama is not the last Dalai Lama.

Robert: That is the prophecy. The Seventeenth. Not Fourteenth. But His Holiness. He told me once about a time; I discussed with His Holiness. He told me, the reason he answers that way when someone says, “Are you the last Dalai Lama?” He said, “If you don’t want me anymore, I’ll be the last.” That’s what he always says. “If people want me, there’ll be plenty more.” That’s how he always answers. And the reason he does that is, he told me is. He said, “Because Chinese are trying to act as if the only problem in the Tibetan question is problem of Dalai Lama. Well, is he is happy or not happy? Or will he come or go or what?” They always try to change it and make people think it’s the Dalai Lama’s the problem. I want to make sure clear that there’s no problem. Dalai Lama has no problem. It’s a problem of six million Tibetan people. Are they happy or not happy? And the Dalai Lama is just there to serve them. If they’re not there to arrange something or to serve Dalai Lama if you follow me. So, he always answers that way. But actually I saw a prophecy of Seventeenth Dalai Lama. Not Fourteenth.

Audience 10: I never thought about this. You know. One of the people said there might not be a Dalai Lamas, because there would be no more world

Robert: But that’s. yeah. That’s a possibility

Audience 10: We might all be moving to another world

Robert: But I have a guarantee that all Mongolia. He guaranteed me, there won’t be nuclear destruction. He told me, forget it.

Rimpoche: I agree

1:23:04.3 Robert: He gave me his absolute promise and guarantee. I believe it. He was my teacher.

Audience 11: the thing about the reincarnation. You were saying about the Dalai Lama. Well, if the Chinese say, of course, that you cannot recognize the incarnation. I mean, which it could have been saying that

Robert: Right

Audience 11: If everyone else recognizes it, how can it be illegal. The other thing is. I don’t know if this is true. But in some of the things I was reading. There has been a few Tibetans who’ve reincarnated as Westerners.

Robert: Yes.

Audience 11: The narrative. Now That becomes very interesting. Because who can prevent Tibetans from reincarnating as Chinese?

Robert: Yeah

Audience 11: If it’s necessary

Rimpoche: I think I’ll answer that question.

Audience 11: No, the thing is Tibet reincarnate. Where it’s important for him to reincarnate.

Robert: Yeah. Reincarnating as Chinese.

Audience 11: I mean. It’s limitless

Rimpoche: Yeah. I understand that. Your question first. You said the Chinese have denounced the reincarnations. And somehow, I’ve tried to read their announcement of the denouncing the reincarnations. I mean, it’s very funnily worded. It’s not the Chinese don’t know Tibetan. But they’re really funnily worded. Purposely. It reads, all the incarnate lamas who have been recognized after 1959 will not be giving any official recognition, except. With the exception of, of Panchen Lama’s 1:24:50.9 exit is the fourth(???). Except with the exception of reincarnation. Which indirectly, getting my already thinking of the future Dalai Lama and the future Panchen Lama. So and forth. Except with the exception of few important ones. That itself is an answer to that. And number two. Yes. Whether it is the Tibetan reincarnating in the western or not. The question of the reincarnation is all totally, it boils down to 1:25:33.1 (Tibetan:…) Did you get that?

Audience: Uh huh.

Rimpoche: Good. So. So, the reincarnation is such a thing. There’s a lot born, by the force of karma and delusions. By the 1:25:49.2 (?) By the force of choice. If it not Tibetan reincarnated in the West, but the original source of what is the incarnation may be. It is. It is reincarnated.

1:26:04.5 It can be incarnated as white, yellow, black, blue, whatever color it is.

Audience: Green

Rimpoche: Green. Or purple, let’s make it. Well. Whatever. If that be possible. Ok. If that is. We’re talking totally different level of high spiritually developed person will come forth of a 1:26:31.4 (?) birth. ???? So, if that serve the purpose, just make sure

Robert: Now.

Audience: Excuse me. Last word. The purpose being for the good of all sentient beings.

Robert: Right.

Rimpoche: The purpose is for benefit of the beings. It is not necessarily Tibetan beings.

Audience: I know.

Rimpoche: Not necessarily Americans. But I just meant beings. That’s what it is.

Robert: There is of course the difference between reincarnating and then the official social institution of reincarnation. That has certain complications. There are other cases other than the Chinese that have been found from 1:27:12.8 (?) But anyway, I think we’ve been long. The discussion. I mean discuss is fun. I’m enjoying it. But I think it probably very late. Some people may be weary, or they may get weary on their way home. And then they’ll being unhappy with this. This is the last day. I want to thank. First of all, I want to thank Rinchen Dharlo. The representative of His Holiness the Dalai Lama for coming here at the, this last section of the Tibet House’s first history of Tibet, brief survey. I want to thank Ralph White who is here. Who is the coordinator of the Open Center for organizing this and allowing in a way the Open house to shelter Tibet House temporarily. I want to thank Gelek Rimpoche, my colleague for flying all the way from Ann Arbor exhaustingly and coming down here to debate with me. Even though he lost all the time. And fooling around with me. We had some great fun. Most known for this sort of Tibetan American kind of combination. It’s kind of fun. Distributing one way or the other way. You know. It’s been a great pleasure for me. And I’ve learned a lot Rimpoche. I’m pleased. Although I’m not satisfied on many points of course. And I want to thank all of you for your patience and coming and as I say, this should be therefore an omen for many future such teachings in the Tibet House. For the existence of the Tibet House. And for the long-term existence even of Tibet. And a good omen. Let us hope. So, anyway, this is the end of this course, Tibet, the Mystic Nation. Ok. Thank you. Thank you.