Archive Result

Soundfile 19900426GRMMF

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Ann Arbor

Topic Mind and Mental Faculties 1990

Transcriber Carla Corazzol

Date January 31, 2022

0:00:00.0 Well, this is, um, 26th April 1990 in Ann Arbor. Um, We have a choice here between the two point that we are going to talk. The point what I was thinking is, um, the choice between is um, uhh, the functioning of the mental faculties and the mind. Or, the 37 qualities of the Buddha-Dharma. That is not talking about dharma as dharma to practice, but it's known as Buddha's quality.

00:00:54 So we have between these two choice. But more or less, when I been talking to the majority of people seems to be wanted to work with the, ahh, the functioning of the mind and the.. and the mental faculties. Ahh, so it might not be bad idea to do this because, ehh, at the time of the Lam Rim, ahh, while we have the Common with the Medium Level, where we talk about the division of virtue and non-virtue, and virtue also, non-virtue also, six root non-virtue and twelve se.. twenty secondary non-virtues, we didn't really talk much in detail. We talked very briefly about six root non-virtue. Right Aura? Right or wrong?

00:01:55 Aura: mm-hmm

Rimpoche: Hey! She got message- wonderful!! Come in. Right here. Here, here, middle. So don't sit so close, because... just came in right time. Did you get the message? Which one? Office one or the house one?

Audience: The office one

Rimpoche: Very good

00:02:29 Soo... it's only Sandy's missing..

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Gloria, Sandy

Audience: and Jane

Rimpoche: Huh?

Audience: and Jane and Supa

Rimpoche: Jane, Supa, lot of them missing... alright..

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Stephen's here!

Audience: oh, good

00:02:51 Rimpoche: Sooo, so we thought about the..., talked about it, and talked about it, and talked to couple of you. And talked with Aura. And so the choice is almost falling on the, ahh, mental faculties working. So maybe it's not bad idea. That's not so much meditation involved. No practice involved. It'll be informal talk, we can make jokes, pull Doctor's leg, and, uhh, if not, beard. Aaand, what else can we do? Huh?

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: It's available! Oh great! HehHehHehHeh!

0:03:37.9 Ok, so, I mean, this is the purely sort of learning, study, rather than practical, except the Ganden Lha Gyema and what we did- this practice little bit. It's been quite good. So, and then the next chapter we do the protectors' pujas, and then the next time we do the Ganden Lha Gyema. Next time we can do the attempt make a Lama Chopa, or something, maybe half of Lama Chopa, or something like that. So there'll be a little practice and uhh, I mean... nothing's related to it. This is sort of purely studying thing. And sort of basic, basic. We're not going to go much detail study, just basic about it. And that's the whole idea. We thought about do the mental functioning, particularly the mental faculties, uhh, of the principle mind and um, faculties. We thought we'd do this. This will be useful.

0:04:41.3 And Chicago will not be left out because Doctor has taken care that it be recorded, so that you can get the tapes. So there's no way... Chicago people come here on Thursdays, so there be no way, so. So, though, you people may make attempt. But, you are representing today, sort of Chicago, so that's a good thing. So, they'll be not left out.

0:05:07.4 Even before we go anything, I may get forget, so before we go anything, I have to say we're very happy to have Mrs. Tan here today. That's Mrs. Tan, so... Many of you have met, some didn't meet. She's very, very good friend, and sort of help me and support me everywhere. And she came from Malaysia, to come and visit. And we're very happy to have you here. So to thank you, and welcome, or whatever you have to say! Hahaha!

0:05:47.9 And, of course, very nice to see our old friends all together, you know what I mean. So, (laughs!) and then Jane! You have a tremendous job to do this time. Number one, we have to thank you on behalf of the... I mean, you're representing the Chicago sangha, who has done a tremendous work this time, really! Not only the weekend retreat, but the, not only the everyday work and working with the study group... groups, rather, haha, plural... and, but also done tremendous work for this benefit concert. I mean, it has been so wonderful. ....You want to go and answer it- somebody?... Yeah, maybe somebody's asking for... And it has done tremendous, it's wonderful work, and we all wish really like to thank you for participating and doing, making it success. Thank you to everybody, and each and everybody, so Chicago. And particularly those of who are directly handling. And named, I mean, most important of all, coordinator, the... Huh?

Audience: Rochelle

Rimpoche: Rochelle? I get mixed up Rochelle, Rachael! Rochelle, Brenda, you, Richard, Barry, and the... what his name? Gray?

Audience: Gray

Rimpoche: Gray. John, and, ahh, who else?

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Mm-hmm, so each and everybody. Every sangha in general, and particularly those. So, Stephen and... going to help me to write a... Did I forget anybody?

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Huh?

Audience: Linda

Rimpoche: Oh, and Linda. Yeah, and Stephen's going to help me to write an individual thank you note, and also little gifts for those people, just token. And also some, little nice, I have a little Buddha thing to be given to Rochelle on my behalf, if you could do that. Huh? Huh?

Audience: I'd be happy.

Rimpoche: Thank you. That'd be very great. So you, so we would like to thank you. You here to representing Chicago, and then you go and represent us and thank them on your next Sunday meeting, right? Thank you. That'll be great. So, we have to get letters ready. Thank you. And you remind me- the... the... please, I get forget... that thing. That's reminds me, I have a gift for Barry, since very long- since he's married! It's lying there all the time!

Audience: (laughter)

Rimpoche: Every time I put it, please take it, ok? Ok. Haha! Ok. Please, remind me, ok? I told Barry himself, and remind me, and I forgot. He didn't remind me, naturally. And, so I forget all the time, ok?

0:10:07.8 Rimpoche: What happened? Who is it? Who is it?

Audience: (laughing)

Kathy: It was Lauren.

Rimpoche: What's... what is the problem?

Kathy: Well, it was just that her sister was there when she went in to take a shower. And then when she came out of the shower, her sister was gone, so she's scared that she's missing.

Rimpoche: Oooo... hahaha!

Audience: [...]

0:10:34.7 Rimpoche: Ok. That portion was that. And then, next is.. we made one mistake yesterday. No, not yesterday. When was it?

Audience: Tuesday

Rimpoche: Tuesday. That was, without looking, I told Aura to announce that I'll be speaking on the next Tuesday. And she did that already. And it's my fault, I didn't look in the calendar, as usual, and also we didn't, we all didn't pay any attention. So it happens to be the first of May, which is Ram Dass will be in town. So I think, I don't think it will be nice to talk here.... So I think we should... if people go there, shouldn't go, and they should make calls immediately- rather than waiting for tomorrow or day after tomorrow sort of thing. So there're about 30, 40 people? How much we have to call? So if you could divide them. And say, make sure, like, you know, everybody will call, like, you know, give the responsibility like 5, 6, 7... to everybody. Or you might not even get it, so you may have to call back, call back, call back.. maybe during the work or maybe during time. Make sure everybody get the message. Because, you know, some people may be saying, 'oh, should I go over Rimpoche's, or the Ram Dass, what should I do?' And that'll unnecessarily create trouble, and inconvenience. And also, so.. so let them just say we're not having that Tuesday. I mean, maybe people will come and meditate. That's different matter, but... And I'm going to shift to the next Tuesday, we'll switch it, the meditation and the...just going to switch it. This will be the local people, have to do that. And, if there're anybody in Detroit to be called, you better give to the Detroit people. And Ann Arbor should do that. And please don't delay- 'til after tomorrow. Please, please. Because.... What, is there difficult?

Stephen: I don't have the list with me.

Rimpoche: You have the [pledges]

Stephen: Yeah, but they're at home, and [..]

Rimpoche: Yeah, but, ok. So, somehow, how do we get it?

Kathy: Perhaps we could each call Stephen [..]

Rimpoche: Well, you have to call different place

Audience: I can call you, Jane (laughter)

Rimpoche: You have to call different place. Umm, Stephen is in altruistic service just now so... You have to call different... (laughter) Huh? What did you say?

Kathy: I didn't know what the altruistic [..]

Rimpoche: Whatever it is.

Stephen: So, I can call people tomorrow, whoever, you know, is open to that. I can call them and say give you 5 names or something like that.

Audience: Ok

Stephen: [cool]

Rimpoche: So, but please, make sure these people gets message. Make sure. Just don't rely on machine or leaving message with kids. So, that's important, ok?

Chris: So there's no teaching next Tuesday [...]

Rimpoche: No. We should really have to... I mean, you can't do that, you know, for Ram Dass thing.

Audience: [....]

Audience: The following Tuesday

Rimpoche: I speak on the following Tuesday because of the Ram Dass schedule.

Audience: Where is Ram Dass?

Rimpoche: Power House.

Audience: Power Center

Rimpoche: (laughing) Power Center! Hahaha! ...Power House! ...Power Center, ok?

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Huh? I knew this for long time because Miribai give me that schedule, whole schedule of what... what is it? 32 city, or something that, in 61 days, that tour thing. And the whole thing's there. I knew. I completely overlooked. And that is really rather embarrassing, so, please make sure that taken care of.

0:14:39.2 Rimpoche: Now let's get to, now, real business about the mental and mental faculty functionings. And mental and mental faculty functionings are, it's not like something you meditate and gain and talk from your experience, or from your learning, or from your heart. But it is sort of... Of course, though, you can. But it is better to rely on a reliable great master. So I'm going here, is based on the Kachin Yeshe Gyantsen's. If I don't say this properly, Doctor will probably be jumping up three times. "Which book is it?! Who wrote it?" And, "Who's the author? Which one you're going through?" So it is Kachin Yeshe Gyantsen. And the title is known as 'Sem Sem Jung'.

0:15:36.6 Sem and sem jung. Sem refers to the principle mind. And sem jung refers to mental faculties. So why they're called sem jung in Tibetan, sem... It's not sem chung, but it's jung, rather, j-u-n-g. So if you want the spelling [spells in Tibetan] [bajung] Ok? b-y-u-n-g, [bajung] It said [bajung], right?

Audience: [byung]

Rimpoche: Huh?

Audience: No, it was actually byung, b-y-u-n-g.

Rimpoche: [bajung]

Doctor: [sems byung]

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Hmmm, it's [byung] soup (laughs)

0:16:27.6 Rimpoche: It's [Ma Kaysa Group]! You know that story, don't you?

Doctor: Oh, you told me about that guy, yeah.

Rimpoche: Good. It's [Ma Kaysa Group]. One of the America's, the foremost, most well-known Tibetologists, is, was, Terry Wylie of Seattle, Washington. Professor Terry Wylie, and, known as the top Tibetologist. I mean, not this generation- generation before this. Top. And went to Europe for an international conference. And gave a lecture and said "[Ma Kaysa Group]!" So, all the European scholars look at him... And he's so well-known, America's top, right? "[Ma Kaysa Group]!" So they don't know what it is, hmm? So afterwards, they said, "What's that?" He said, "Oh, [Ma Kaysa Group]!! You don't know the Tsong Khapa's, the disciple, the famous?!" Actually it's Khedrup, you know? It is M-K-H-A-S-G-R-U-B. It's pronounced as Khedrup. So he had no idea. So he saw this M-K-H, so [Ma Kaysa Group]! Hahahaha! So that's what it is. So [byajung], ok?

Audience: (laughter)

Doctor: [byung]

Audience: (laughter)

Rimpoche: [Ma Kaysa Group]. Oh, that's recorded, right? Ahhh... Alright, ahhh... Well, doesn't matter, but anyway, it's a true fact anyway, that's it. So, this is the [..] problem is everything's recorded, then, you know, can't talk much.

Audience: (laughter)

0:18:20.5 Rimpoche: Ok, now, according to Kachin Yeshe Gyantsen, or sometimes known as Yogi Yeshe Gyantsen- he is the teacher of.... tutor of the ahh, 7th Dalai Lama? ..or... wait a minute, I also confused. Oh, must be the 8th Dalai Lama. Kachin Yeshe Gyantsen. So, according to him, he says... So he says, umm, "Those of the people who are not only satisfied- the life before death- or those of us who are not satisfied with the material developments, will have a thought has to be developed within us. That thought will be whether it is this life is the only life, or is there going to be another life?" As Buddha says, "There is constant life, continuously, one after the another, will come, and has been." So, "Let's take that as a truth," according to him, he says, "Let's take that as true, and see... why do we have constant sufferings, experiencing of dissatisfactions, continuously?" [Why do] ask that. Why we're having that, what is the cause of it? Did you get that? So what is it?

What is the reason?

Friends, tell me why we're suffering.

I've given you this punchline answer for number of times.

Tell me. Jane, you are the guest, hahahaha! So, hahahaha! -representing Chicago. If you don't answer, Chicago's not answering, hahahaha! Brenda will catch you then!

0:21:43.6 Jane: Umm, as a result of our delusions.

Rimpoche: That's not the answer. It is... yeah, it's one answer, but it's not answer. Caroline Hastings, I have given the punchline number of times. What do you think? You are sha.. you're pa... you're passing the...

Audience: bucket (laughter)

Rimpoche: What is it?

Doctor: [...]

Rimpoche: Wait a minute. Passing the... butt

Audience: (laughter)

Rimpoche: Ok, what about, umm... Chris? (knocking on table)

Chris: I think I'm gonna pass, too, (laughing)

Rimpoche: (laughing & knocking on table) Okaaay...!! So, Kathleen? (knocking on table)

Kathleen: [inaudible]

Rimpoche: (knocking on table) You were there, when I said three times..

Kathleen: [inaudible]

Rimpoche: Ok... Stephen, I catch you (knocking)

Stephen: You caught me.

Rimpoche: Good. Ok... Kathy... Did I catch you? I think you heard. Or doctor mumble-jumbled. Yeah, it's a pass, through... Ok.... So let doctor say.

Steven: Beings are not free.

Rimpoche: What you mean, beings are not free?

Steven: Not free, because they're under the... they're under the power of common delusion.

0:23:15.9 Rimpoche: (sighs)... Beings are not free is right. But whether that's under common delusion, is you cannot use that as a reason. You know what you're going to learn here? -Whether you can use as a reason or not reason. That's it. If the reason is not communicated to the individual... right? ... If the reason is not communicated to the individual, whatever the reason going to use it... If it's not communicated to the individual, you cannot use that as a reason to prove something else. Because the... the tool what you're using is not been proved to be the right truth. You know what I mean? So you cannot say.. We can say, we're not free. We're suffering. We're suffering. We're suffering. We talk about suffering. Not necessarily samsaric suffering. Not necessarily thinking of not having food to eat, or sick. There are sufferings, but the moment you say suffering, you don't have to think about those. There are much more suffering up in the palace of his our her royal highness' palace. And there's a tremendous sufferings in the great corporate's offices, and in the president's suite, or whatever. There're tremendous sufferings there. Why? The main reason is... I mean, really, the deeper reason is because we are not free. This is real reason. We are not free. We may be free American citizens, but we are not free. We have a tremendous amount of limitations. We have a tremendous amount of ups and downs. We have uncontrollable situations. And we get into trouble all the time. We have problems encounter. So we're not problem-free. Did you get me? We are not problem-free. We are not free. Therefore we are suffering. It is clear, isn't it? Very clear. I mean, it is very clear to me. Is it clear to you, or not? It's clear.

0:26:02.3 We can use this as a reason why we're not free. Because we see it ...Right? We cannot use a reason like- because we are controlled karma and delusion. It's a true answer, Doctor. It is true answer. However, we cannot use this. You get me? I'm not talking to you, alone. I'm talking to everybody. However we cannot use that. -Because we're not sure whether we are controlled by karma and delusion. How in the hell we are sure about? We're not sure. So we will only use, to prove another one, by using the reason that known. Ok. This is a basic principle of functioning of mental and.... mind and mental faculty functioning.

0:26:58.7 The reasoning- yes. If you look at the logical point of view, from the logic- yes, we use true reasons. Ok. But true reasons are only applicable to the individuals if you know it is. You know what I mean? Did I communicate clearly to you, or not?

Audience: Mm-hmm. Yes

Rimpoche: Is that clear? So you cannot say, we cannot say... We cannot say to a blind person, "This is white." And then say, "Why it's white?" "Because... because milk is white." The blind person has no idea of... white. And blind person has no idea of- milk is white. So you cannot use to that individual, to prove it's white, because it's milk. I mean, in reality, it's true, right? Milk is white. This is very similar to it. You cannot go and walk to the George Bush, and say, "Hey, you are suffering because you are under the control of delusion and karma." And Bush will say, "Bullshit," right? Or maybe the security guys will get you. So, I mean, that's a true fact, because that doesn't make sense to that individual, at all, because that individual has no idea. Right? So we will only use, in this principle of functioning of mind and mental faculty, is the communication. We can only communicate to the people, only by using reasons as known to established for fact, at least.

0:28:50.5 At least known as not, sort of you know, making sense to the individual. That is the first principle you have to remember it here, in this... under this system.

0:29:12.4 Rimpoche: Yes, Stephen?

Stephen: Rimpoche, with something like that, you say, "Why are we suffering? Well, it's because we're not problem-free." Could you say the same that, we're..... I mean, I guess I'm feeling a bit of a cyclic argument already.

Rimpoche: Sure, good...

Stephen: ...That, ok, why are we suffering? Because we're not free of suffering. Well, I mean, that...

Rimpoche: I didn't say that.

Stephen: Ok, you said we're not problem-free...

0:29:34.0 Rimpoche: We're not free. And [?a nada ga?] is a very known for [?chonven.. ship of/chieva?] freedom. And you don't, (laughs)... right? And everybody likes to be free. And everybody makes sure they are free, gets free. Right? Why? Because it's known to the Americans- when you're not free, it is a problem. Though.. though, they always working for not to be free. We always work for not to be free. We build up machines which will control you, rather than you going to control them. So, I mean, they're contributing... Not only... I'm not only talking about delusion and karma, but even the material things- They're always building something to control you back rather than you controlling them ..building something not to be free. But, the idea of being free is been challenged, accepted, and it is somehow enjoyed, and it makes sense to everybody. You mean to... are you trying to tell me it's already half an hour gone on that?

Steven: No, Rimpoche, it's just..

Rimpoche: Oh, playing with it...

Steven: ...playing with it.. I forgot the volume has to go all the way up on this...

Rimpoche: (laughs) There you go, Doctor.

Stephen: I guess, the thing that strikes me... I mean, I guess... Problems create suffering. Would you agree to that?

Rimpoche: Problems create discomfort.

Stephen: Does discomfort crea...

Rimpoche: Discomfort creates pain, which is suffering.

Stephen: So then we're kind of... You know, I guess the thing that I'm thinking of initially, [...] talks about...that first thing that came to me when you asked that question after I got caught, was that, about not understanding the true nature of reality as being one of the reasons for suffering, because...

Rimpoche: Yeah, yeah... That's too big.

Stephen: Ok

0:32:01.5 Rimpoche: Too big a step. Yeah, too big a step. And not understanding true nature, itself, is gone beyond our head. You know what I mean? -Not be on the ground... I mean, pure people can communicate- not been understand true nature. But how do we know, while not understanding true nature even. We talk about it. We know about it... I mean, we don't know.

Stephen: Why don't say, we could argue that the true nature that we're positing, is the real true nature for everybody, but the...

Rimpoche: Yeah, it is.

Stephen: But the fact that, you know, I see people suffering because they don't really know why they're suffering... I mean, I went to somebody's funer..

Rimpoche: Yeah, that.... I can't argue with you for this. That's because this is true answer. I cannot argue with you. It is a right answer. But my argument is, how can we use this, because we're talking to somebody who doesn't know anything about it. The moment you say, "Because we don't know the true nature," that person will say, "What the hell is that?!" You know what I mean? Yeah. "What the hell is that?" So we can't use something which is not known to that... to whom we're communicating. -Coming back to the my first statement.

0:33:35.3 I know you have argument. Yeah. Go ahead.

Matthew: [...] it's only a question. I don't know, it just seems to me that, I mean, I know that there's levels of understanding, but you just said that people aren't free either, that Americans, everybody... everyone's creating more, I mean, creating less freedom for theirselves, so how can you say that the reason we're suffering is because we're not free... And that doesn't communicate to people, either. Well, I mean, not...

Rimpoche: That do communicate to people. When.. the moment you say you're not free, and that rings bell.

...Doesn't that ring bell? Or you going to say, we're not in Communist country, so therefore, we're going to be free.

Matthew: No, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that you just said that people don't understand freedom. So, if you don...

Rimpoche: I did not say people do not understand freedom.

Matthew: [It means] they're not free, right?

Rimpoche: I did not say people did not understand freedom.

Matthew: You said that they're not free.

Rimpoche: I said, yeah, I said people, we are not free therefore we're suffering.

Matthew: Right. But, but...

0:34:35.5 Rimpoche: The main reason... yeah, what is it?

Matthew: I mean, you said people... people aren't free, right?

Rimpoche: Did I say that? I said, "We". I said, "We".

Matthew: Ok, we aren't free.

Rimpoche: We're not free, yes.

Matthew: We aren't free. So, but...

Rimpoche: We are not free, you understand that?

Matthew: [...] do you understand it..

Rimpoche: ...you understand...

Matthew: ...understand freedom, then do we understand freedom?

Rimpoche: Doesn't matter. We understand we're... we, when we say, I mean truly, when we say we're not free, it rings the bell. When we say we don't understand true reality, it's means, "What the hell is this?" Just go and talk... talk to the lady across the street. Say, "Do you understand when I tell you, you don't understand true reality?" And she'll probably say, "Don't you tell me."

Matthew: Well, why don't you tell her she's not free? She'll say, "Yes I am."

Rimpoche: She may say, "Yes I am"...

Matthew: No, I know. I'm saying there's levels of understanding [...]

Rimpoche: Yeah, yeah. She may say, "Yes I am. I'm American. I'm free and I'm.. free country." She may say that. That is possible. But that is some reason, some point where we can communicate. And when we jump to the true reality, and she will probably say, "What is that thing called true reality?!" No, really..

Mike: The problem was not the original question, though.

Rimpoche: There is no original question.

Mike: The question of what is the cause of suffering. So the cause of suffering would be not that we're not free. That's what suffering is.

Rimpoche: Yeah.

Mike: So it's.. if the question was, "What is suffering?" -then it would be the lack of freedom. But "What is the cause of suffering?" is the same question as "What is lack of freedom?" "What is the cause of lack of freedom?"...

Rimpoche: Yeah

Mike: ...which would have to be ignorance.

0:36:26.6 Kathy: No, he mentioned it's limit, that everything has limit. That that's where [... that] So like, the topic of freedom is something we're all familiar with, so we can bring that up and raise the issue [....] so familiar with [....]

[Audience talking over each other]

Mike: Right, so [...] ...established, right exactly.

Kathy: ...And then from there, you use that personal known understanding from each person's position of freedom, and you bring in the concept of our lack of freedom...

Mike: ...Right, the lack of freedom isn't the cause of suffering, it is... it's another word for suffering..

Kathy: ...based on the limit of the world we are relating in, no?

Aura: Yeah, I was having the same thought. I'm definitely tracking with you... Yeah, because Rimpoche asked the question, "What is the cause of suffering?" He didn't ask, "What is suffering?" And you said to me, very clearly, about three weeks ago, that la....

Rimpoche: No, I mean.. Ok, ok, ok. What I mean is.... no, no, no. Maybe I used the wrong word. Why we are suffering, that's what I mean...

Kathy: That's what you said, though. You said, "Why do we have constant suffering, continuously?"

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: (whispering to someone else?) Hey..

Kathy: Then you said it's because we're not free. That we have limit everywhere.

Audience: [...]

Chris: Yeah, there were two questions.

Rimpoche: What?

Chris: Why do we have suffering continuously, and what causes it- was the second question.

Rimpoche: Who said that?

Audience: You did (laughing)

0:37:42.4 Rimpoche: Did I?

Audience: Yeah [...]

Rimpoche: Ok, mm-hmm. Why do we have constant suffering? Ok, let's deal with that. So we said, I mean, the doctor give the answer, right? Doctor gave the answer, "Because we're controlled by karma and delusion. We are not free." He used that. Why are not free? "-Because we are used by karma and delusions." So we can't point there. We cannot say that. We cannot say that because the subject to whom we are using that, might not be even familiar with what karma is. And what delusion is. So the person of no idea what karma and delusion, we cannot use that reason.

0:38:33.5 Or then, only [direct way] to communicate to that person is, we say, "The Buddha says there is thing called karma, which they say some kind of cause and effect type of thing, which they goes. And then they say the delusions and something like that. And that go together." That's how we have to talk. If we have to talk somebody from the street there today, and have to talk about the karma, you have to say something like that, right? That's the.. my main point of argument. We cannot use that as a reason because it's not even established to ourself. And my argument is we can use 'it's not free' because that considers- established to ourself. So, did you get me now?

Audience: [yeah]

Rimpoche: Is that make sense, or you have contradiction for that... Aura?

Aura: No, I don't have a con... I was having the same response that Mike was having, but which was more a semantic thing- of the question, what is the cause of suffering vs. what is the nature of suffering. What is the experience of suffering.

Rimpoche: Mm-hmm

Aura: Which, to me, is what not being free is about.

Rimpoche: You know, what is the..

Aura: [...cause of it...]

Rimpoche: Ok, what is the problem we have. I mean, not only we as a few people here. We have to think as a society as [at]* large. What problem do we have? Acknowledging suffering. We have to look in that point. From that angle, we look. I mean, when we talk about the mental faculty and this business, we are talking about the society functioning as well as the individual functioning, both. We just have to keep it in the mind. And this is sort of, any reasons that we're going to bring it, we have to try to bring some kind of reasons which make sense to people. In short, my argument is... Yes Kathy?... Carolyn! I'm sorry, I'm getting mixed up- Kathleen, Carolyn, Carolyn, Kath... (laughs)

0:40:46.1 Carolyn: I know who you meant.

Rimpoche: Oh, good.

Carolyn: I guess I'm puzzled by, umm, we have to have an understanding of what we mean by freedom. We have to understand that you're talking about a different sort of freedom than the kind of freedom that we ordinarily think that we have. So, if we define... so we have to have...

Rimpoche: Well, that is, maybe, too...

Carolyn: My question is, if we have... sort of like, we have to define karma and delusion, we also...

Rimpoche: Well, if you have to go in detail, you have to.

Carolyn: You have to go in less detail to describe the kind of [freedom we're talking about]

Rimpoche: Yeah, so first you have to communicate. (knocks on table)

Kathy: It's like the point is that, if you're going to write an article, you have a grabber sentence at first that people relate to. And then you can elaborate...

Mike: [...] based on common experience.

Kathy: ...So it's the point of, how do we talk with each other in a language where we're each listening and understanding, and the first point is you find a ground that's common.

Carolyn: So you're saying that... I'm understanding that... freedom is easier to explain than understanding. It takes less... than explaining what karma and delusion and all that is...

Kathy: Mm-hmm. [...] because that's boring at the moment, but we [...]

Carolyn: Would you agree, though, that we also have to learn what the Tibetans mean by... the Buddhists mean, by freedom?

Kathy: I don't think he's at that point yet...

Mike: [....] it's not necessary.

Kathy: That's not even [...]

Mike: I mean, you don't have the freedom to... to change your destiny...

Rimpoche: (possibly addressing someone else in the room) Thank you.

Mike: I mean, you don't have [...] When he said... levitate and fly around the room [...]

Rimpoche: (addressing someone else in the room) [where] did you find that? Huh?

Carolyn: Yeah, but... [...] if you had told me three years ago that I didn't have freedom, I would have said you're crazy. I have freedom to choose my job. I have the freedom to decide what I'm gonna eat. I have [...] to get married or not....

Mike: ...Didn't say you had no freedom, but you don't have... freedom [...]

Audience: total freedom

Carolyn: But we do have to have [...] To me, in understanding that was a real eye--opener. I mean, a whole different...

Rimpoche: (whispering to somebody)

Mike: [...]

Carolyn: Yeah. Which I think is what he's trying to- talking about, only communicate to the person on the street..

Mike: [...] total freedom. [..] any freedom that we have is tainted. [...] there's limit. There is limit, so you don't even have to say freedom. There is like continual limitations.

Carolyn: [...] semantics, trying to get to the bottom of [...] of arguing [...] I'm just trying to really understand it.

0:43:23.5 Rimpoche: Is it your kids?

Audience: Yeah, [..] is home alone. He was wondering where everyone was.

Rimpoche: (laughs)

Audience: [...]

Kathy: Chris should call Lauren [...]

0:43:40.7 Rimpoche: Ok, well, let's get back to... umm. I mean, that is... if you go too detailed, it is a very.. very difficult one again. And.. again, if you go much detailed, I don't think we have much freedom even. I mean, I can't say it's a joke, but still, there's a lot of limit. Sometimes I wonder India has more freedom than United States has. Anyway, that's different matter. So, whatever we use to convince ourself, or to communicate to others, the basic principle is we will only use something... is something established- something rings a bell. Ok? Something rings a bell. And as Kathy was just now saying - what? -article or something. You get the point where something, some makes sense to something. So now, according to this- little conservative way, and it goes, says and... the sufferings in the samsara, are neither caused or the no-cause... neither came out of no-cause, -means come out of nowhere- Or it came from the wrong causes. So it has to come from the correct cause, which in this case, as Doctor say, it is your own delusions and your own karma.

0:46:20.5 Rimpoche: (sound of turning through pages) So to prove this, he goes and finds out Nagarjuna's famous verse, [je se pungba zing yoba deshe tung la ngangze yos] This is, "As long as we have a clinging on the identity, and that long, we will have..." How do we say [ngang bu zing]?

Doctor: Ahhh, [...] to a, holding to a personal identity

Audience: Self-cherish..? Self-cherishing

Rimpoche: No

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Who said that?

Audience: [...]

0:47:09.0 Rimpoche: You did. Ok. It is not really right. Self-cherishing. Sort of a.. as long as personally identify it is my and [recorder problem...] As long as we can have a holding on that 'my' business, then we have creating the karma point. And from that karma, things are starting.

0:48:08.3 Now there's a lot of quotations he used for one after the another. Shantideva is quoted, - not from the Bodhisattvacharyavatara, but from somewhere else. And the Chandrakirti has been quoted, and Nagarjuna's quoted, and another is Nagarjuna said [Korwa towang duje don, tu je ka men du min gye. Ter che mik kye chey po yi, kyun yi din ye ton gyi lobs] So, the quotations are almost the same- when you translate into English, it becomes almost the same thing. Let's do this Chandrakirti's. This is easy [Sim nyi jin ne sem jin jig den dang nyer jing ju dang, sem don nam pon um zer ma lu le le chin du sungs. Sem nyi ji me, sem chen jig dan dang] It is the mind which creates the beings, mind which create the samsara, the mind which creates the inhabitants, and the universe. Huh? [jikten]

Doctor: Sounds like a [...]

Rimpoche: No, no, no, no, no. Don't jump it, Doctor. See, this is the problem. [Ngo je jig ten shin tim nang drang wo, do wang ma lu leng le je wa sum]

0:49:21.6 Different- the [?Sinvemba?] will say, it is only the mind itself. Full stop. Here we go for once more. It is the mind is the one which creates all this, and therefore, every being in the samsara has been come out of their karma- their, their... kleshas- no, their karma. [Leh] Did I communicate to any of you, at all? We can go back on that point. ...Aura?

Aura: I just don't understand this last thing you put in about the kleshas. First you say..

Rimpoche: (whispering to someone else) No- that's fine..

Aura: First you say it's the mind which creates the universe. You said that it's the mind creates beings, which create samsara, its inhabitants, and it's the mind which creates the universe. And then you just said, it's not [...]

Rimpoche: Makes... that makes us to create karma. And from that, we create everything. So, indirectly [Drowa malu le le kye be sungs] all the beings are grown out of karma. Ok, don't take this as a literally, literal. We have to talk a lot on this. You cannot take this literal. Now, another point here. This Vasubhandu's... in that metaphysical text. What is the text?

Doctor: Abhidharma Ko..

Rimpoche: Abhidharma. You know, metaphysical text. It says, [le le gyi den ngan dzo kyi] And he just make very simple, and saying from the karma, whole universe is grown. And this [(repeats) le le....kyi] And then the Shantideva's Bodhisattvacharyavatara goes [Di den jig pa tam che da dun nga pa don nga wang, sem na jo wa ying na zhi, [dar] na sum na yig chig den] See, it says, "All the fears and sufferings are all came from the mind, said by Buddha." I mean, if you look into the Shantideva's translations, Bodhisattvacharyavatara, it will be there somewhere, better than what I said.

0:52:01.9 And the Bodhisattvacharyavatara continues, [kang gye cho je tom ba ja, sem gyi son den ma chin na, de tar dun ngay sham du yan, kyay ba ton me shin tar khyum. De tar da gyi sem di nyi le sung lhe kar sum wa cha] So Bodhisattvacharyavatara continues, "Unless you know the functioning of the mind properly, even though you wish for happiness and you always wish to destroy the sufferings, and much cannot be achieved." Ok, now, it is important to cut there. But because the next sentence will jump, in Bodhisattvacharyavatara, next sentence will go and says, "So, therefore, watch your mind." So what happens is, people will use that 'watching mind' is important, because Shantideva says that, ok? Now here we don't use that 'watch your mind.' Therefore, block that sentence out, and say, "Buddha said- I mean, if you do not understand the functioning of the mind properly, then your wish to obtaining happiness and getting out the suffering, would be difficult to achieve." And you can just put full stop there, and don't read next sentence. You know what happened, next sentence will cut you out away from the learning point, and to jump in practical point.

0:53:44.4 So they will just straight away take you to practice, say 'watch your mind,' rather than learning. Ok? So it is, the trick with the Tibetan Buddhism is.. it is.. they give you all various reasons, and then, you know, every punchline where you get it, they will say, "Therefore, do this. Therefore, do that." So when you do practical point like lam rim alone, you pick the punching points. So you have to be watching your mind because, otherwise, if your the mental functionings, you're not more... your purpose will not be achieved. So here we don't do this. This time, we don't do that. We'll block that out. We say, in your purpose of thing cannot be function it. In order to function that, you have to know the functioning of the mind and leave it there. That will become learning-oriented way of going, rather than practical-oriented way of going. Ok?

Doctor: [...]

Rimpoche: Huh?

Doctor: [...]

Rimpoche: Good, good, good. That's because you are doctor.

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Yeah, say the page.

Doctor: Oh, it's 'Guarding Alertness,' page 38, stanza number 6.

Rimpoche: Read it.

Doctor: "The perfect teacher himself has shown that in this way, all fears, as well as all boundless miseries, originate in the mind."

0:55:06.5 Rimpoche: That's it. [Yang da sum ba ni ji gen] And then probably the next few lines, it should be the other one.

Doctor: Well there's one... actually... no, the one before is related, but the one after is...

Rimpoche: No, not immediate- continue. It is another 2, 3 sentence. Jump, it should be there.

Doctor: [....] of generosity [...]

0:55:36.5 Rimpoche: No. That doesn't matter if you don't find it. You found the main [?part-verse?], ok? Well, what chapter is that?

Doctor: 'Guarding Alertness', the... 3rd chapter...

Rimpoche: Ok..

Doctor: ...5th chapter, Chapter 5.

Rimpoche: What does that mean?

Doctor: Alertness? I think it's like... denpa actually, is what they're actually... I don't know what, what the...

0:56:00.2 Rimpoche: What [?..loooved..?] it, in Tibetan?

Doctor: Nyur mapa. I don't know which...

Rimpoche: Ok, fine. So, we not go so much in detail in that, so... So, in short, whole the samsaric things... come out of delusion and karma, which is by all the buddhas and bodhisattvas and all these people have repeatedly mentioned.

Doctor: [...]

Rimpoche: Huh? Read it.

Doctor: "Even those who wish to find happiness and overcome misery will wander with no aim nor meaning. If they do not comprehend secret mind, the paramount significance of the dharma." And then later it says, "Oh you who wish to guard your minds, I beseech you with folded hands, always exert yourself...."

Rimpoche: Ok, just leave that out (laughs). So that will push you to practical point. That's the only reason.

So, we say the samsaric things, all the samsaric are... result of delusion and karma, which is related to the mind. We talk about the nirvana, including buddha state, everything is happy, great, wonderful, all this- we also say, it's a result of the karma and good virtue. So all of them, in short... now watch my... pay attention here. In short, whether it's samsara or nirvana or whatever it is, both are rooted to mind. So the root is mind, itself. So when you look into the mind, then you have... there's a principle mind and mental faculties. So it has become important for us to acknowledge and learn a little bit about principle mind, mental faculties, how it functions, what it is, what is all this. It's becomes... little important.

0:58:58.1 Doctor: I hate to be doctor on this, but mental faculties are actually the principle mind. Mental functions, I think, is the...

Rimpoche: Sorry, there are lot of people talked on this, and lot, lot of people- because the sem jun, they decided to use as mental faculty. Lot of them. I know about that, yeah, yeah.

Ok? Now you can use whatever it is, but people thought of talking on that.

0:59:30.7 Anyway you can [not?] get to here. So it is important to know what the mind and faculties functions. So.. Ok, now the first is.. What is the difference between what we like to call mind and we choose to call mental faculty- or, what you like to call?

Doctor: Mental function

Rimpoche: Mental function. It's.. that's also right thing. I mean, really, it's not really wrong thing. Mental function. What is mental function and what is mental faculty? So this is our first problem to deal with it. So, now I cut off all these quotations here and there because... you know, because when this is sort of detailed tal.. uhh.. sort of little thing... little- as I mentioned to you, talk a little bit blind. So therefore, they put lot of quotes here, quotes there because this scholar said that, this Nagarjuna says this, and Buddha says this, and this and that. Lot of quotations. I dumped out all the quotations out. And, so what is really mind when they're referring here? One, they're talking about mental faculty- or mental function, whatever it is... when you call it... What it is? ..And what is the different? That's the first question. So when you... before we talk even the difference... we talk what is mind. We call that sem in Tibetan. Where you cut the limit between sem and sem jung?

1:01:36.9 I'm not going to ans.. not waiting your answer. You don't have to answer, ok?

Sem and sem jung. I'd be much more comfortable using the Tibetan words- because 'mind'- I do not know. Is it really the word for sem or not- I'm not even sure. The 'mental faculty' is the word or not- I'm not even sure. So let's talk about this mind business here... I mean, sem, here. Where you cut the line between sem and sem jung? First I like to make clear, whether we call it mental faculties or mental activities, the word in Tibetan is sem jung. Did we talk it already, right? Means came out of mind, came... sort of... result of mind, or... something came out. You know, where does this fruit come from? Ok, this come out of tree. So this is [shingway chunwa]. Or this is also called result of shing, or it's also the [shinglay chunwa]. So they're not looking from the result point. Fruit is... sort of result, right? We are not looking from the result point, but we're looking for where it's come from. ...sort of come from.. tree. So that's how this mental faculty or function it's called... named like.. sem jung. It's come from mind. It's named, that's becomes... something called 'came from mind' - becomes noun here.

Audience: Mm-hmm

Rimpoche: Did you get it now? Something that's... becomes noun. So we try to call this mental faculties, or mental functions, or every.... there are, like, you know, I think... there's different terminologies, and everybody's using it. And so, that's that. So when you are really talking is, we're talking that. (microphone noises) What's happening?

Doctor: The phone rang [..]

1:03:50.5 Rimpoche: Very good. Alright. So, what is, what we call it, mind?

Audience: (silence)

Audience: (giggling)

Rimpoche: What is this mind? Where do we draw the line? So here, Gyaltsebje goes on and say... Gyaltsebje goes on and says much more. Something which we just perceive. You know what I mean? Something which we just perceive. Just acknowledging, perceiving, is mind. And the moment it started making more than that- differentiation. Now give an example... Like say, the eye consciousness. Like say, when the eye consciousness looking at the object... of individual... say, say the object... and just the perceiving object... just the perceiving object, itself, is a functioning of mind. Just perceiving. And the.. differentiating it, we little more in detail... little bit more. Cutting that out, this is not, that's not, this is it, this is making some kind of differentiate. This is white, black, or something, you know? Little bit. This is example. When the moment it's differentiate, it becomes a signal. So the drawing line, it's becomes very difficult. The more and more we talk... the 51.. 52 different functions... we have to talk, continuously. And then you'll become more and more clear. Otherwise, at this moment, it is... little difficult. But... just grasping, acknowledging and just be there, is mind. The moment it sort of... decorated and a little bit going in detail, it is the... becomes... what we call it, faculties.

1:07:18.0 Now, it's not clear at all. I know everybody have lot of questions. It's not clear. But I like to give you one example. Let's say... when we talk about it. When we talking in general conversation, general communication with people they say, "Ok, this is my heart talk." Say, or, "This is your head." It's come from your head. It's come from your heart. We make two different things, don't we? We distinct that. So when you say, "We come from heart," we try to communicate, saying it is really truth we're giving. When you say it is through your head, means our knowledge is built up and something we built up something and [brung] it. That's what we get it, ok? That's picture what we get, don't we? Kathleen? Kathleen? Right? Did I say your name right? Oh good, thanks. (laughs) Sorry. Ok. So, when you say from heart, it might or might not necessarily be truth. But that's what it is. So that sort of undecorated, raw blank perceiving... let be... temporarily be... mind, ok? And the moment it started decorating, the moment it started differentiating, moment it started going a little more detail, then it's becoming, what we call it, 'faculty'- which could be 'functioning'. But sem jung, ok? Just temporarily, the moment we say 'sem', we are talking about that. The moment we say 'sem jung', we are going little more than that, ok? Let's let it be that. It's not necessarily the [dzo sem]. That not necessarily the [nam shi]. That not necessarily the [ye she]. There are lot of divisions among the Tibetans. There are lot of names. I don't even know how to say them in English.

1:10:08.6 So there's just bring you, very roughly, about the mind and the faculties, division. Is that little clear? So we call that mind, is a principle. And all others are, we call it, retinue. We identify them as a retinue. We call the mind as a principle; sem as a principle. And all others are retinues, ok? Did you get it? Mmmm. For example, the principle mind, when it's look at it, they will just perceive it. Perceive it. Then another mental faculty will make... the principle... to draw the attention of the principle mind, pay attention. You know? The moment you started paying attention to the perceiving, another mental faculty started functioning. Ok, you perceive, you pay attention, right? Then the things go. Then you keep a memory. That is another mental faculty which comes- keep the memory. See, the principle mind perceives. ..Pay attention... the moment it started paying attention, it's a one mental faculty started functioning already. And that goes away, whether the object goes away, the time goes away, or the mind goes away, and then it's only become memory. So another mental faculty comes, and keep the picture. See now, can you get little better picture -when I say perceive and function? Not going to be clear, I know, Aura. Don't try to be.. get completely clear, but raise your question.

1:12:54.0 Aura: Ok, well, a couple questions. One question is... when you say the mind is perceiving, is that, you know, the senses?

Rimpoche: I'm not talking about the senses, at all. Don't think about it's eye, ear, at all. I'm simply mentioning, just now, only principle mind. Somehow, you know, somehow...

Aura: Right [...] separate [...] see as the object ....

Rimpoche: No, I'm not sure. I.. just... 'see' is we're use as an example to communicate.

Aura: [...] clear on this.

Rimpoche: Ok, 'see' has been...

Aura: ...so you're not actually talking about seeing...

Rimpoche: No. I am not talking about seeing at all. But when you say, "My mind sees," what does that mean? People talk about, "I see in my mind." Don't we talk that? We do. So when we see, when we say, "I see in my mind" -which you really knew you're not seeing it, but you're using the word 'seeing' as eye see object. Eye see physical form. The eye see a physical form. We're using that as an example to communicate to mind when it is blind. You didn't get me. When we say, "I see in my mind" -what does that mean?

Aura: You have a picture that is not based on a visual sense, but it is like a visual sense.

Rimpoche: That's right. Why we say that word? Because we can only communicate, make sense to the other mind, by using the example...

Aura: ..by linking it to a sense

Rimpoche: Yes, by linking it to the senses, which we'll... which is familiar to you, which is familiar to me. So we say that, so we get the picture.

Aura: Right.

Rimpoche: Right? So it's not necessarily we're seeing it.

Aura: So, does that mean, for example, when you visualize something, that you're using your principle mind?

1:14:56.0 Rimpoche: More or less. We're not using any other consciousness at all. There are six other consciousness, right... that is, sort of, five other consciousness. We are not using it. We are using the principle mind, the visualizing. The moment we're decorating, like, say, visualize Tsong Khapa, perceiving Tsong Khapa. That is the principle mind. Just. And then we started go in the detail, the faculties started functioning. Either we draw from the memory bank, the picture, the faculties. The memory is comes out and show the picture up, which is the mind perceives. Ok, the faculties functioning like that.

Aura: I have one other question, which is...

Rimpoche: I get apple.

Aura: That's lucky. ..which is, is the principle mind die at the time of death?

Rimpoche: That is another question. I don't know, and... I don't like to answer just now. Because, you know, it becomes bigger question. Whether there's difference between the principle mind and me.

Aura: [...] that's my question.

Rimpoche: ...And that is because consciousness and my mind. So that is separate question. Let's not deal with that yet. I think when we come down to, it will automatically comes into it- little bit later. Ok?

Doctor: I heard...

Rimpoche: Yes, Doctor..

Doctor: ...all the s...

Rimpoche: If whatever you heard, I don't care, ok? So... if you have questions, go ahead.

Doctor: Well then, based on confusion, I'm...

Rimpoche: Good.

Doctor: ...thought that all of these six senses were actually aspects of primary mind. There were, you could say there're six principle minds.

1:16:53.9 Rimpoche: Normally when we count, we start [mi gyi nam bar sewa, na wa nam bar...] You know the Tibetan, so... [mi gyi nam bar se wa, na way nam bar shewa, na yang nam bars shewa, chi yi nam bar shewa, yi gyi nam bar shewa] So [yi gyi nam bar shewa] is normally referred as principle mind. [chjo sem] In Tibetan they say [dzo sem] and [tso sum] and then the question is whether [mik kyi nam bar sheba], itself, is either [dzo sem] or [tsun jun] That is totally different question. When you count it, you count each number [shewa] as separate. You count that as a [dzo sum]. You label that as [dzo sum].

Doctor: When I actually think about the eye consciousness, my eye sees things with no differentiation or distinction. But it's because of the secondary functions that I'm actually latching onto individual objects that attracted to this or identifying that. My eye makes no distinction. In a room, I can look over there and see with my eyes everything that's there. But if you ask me what's there, I may not be able to tell you what's there. I may not re... or I may only point out certain things. With my eye, consciousness is not distinguishing whatsoever. That's why I thought of..

Rimpoche: Now, who is distinguishing?

Doctor: Well, those are all the secondary functions that arise. I mean, you know, the... I don't know what you call them in English, and I don't know what they mean exactly anyway, so...

Rimpoche: Like what?

Doctor: ...like all the remaining 51 functions that come into play.

1:18:32.2 Rimpoche: Eye consciousness, you have to, I mean, why you raise this question at this beginning level. Anyway. So, eye consciousness is, you have to divide it [ongden kogpa], and chew on that for one.... Now, [ongbo]... Which is eye consciousness? You tell me. Where is eye consciousness?

Doctor: ...thought it actually comes from the... I mean, the physical... the physical faculty and it's connection...

Rimpoche: Wait, wait, wait... where is it? Where is it?

Doctor: Well, it's ultimately connected with the [dzo tsen] I mean the [yi]...

Rimpoche: I, I'm not asking that. Where is it physically available on your... face. Where is it?

Audience: (giggling)

Rimpoche: Where is it?

Doctor: I guess you can't find it, Rimpoche.

1:19:22.9 Rimpoche: You [can? can't?]. Yeah. Eye consciousness is supposed to remain inside, deeper inside the eye. And ear consciousness supposed to remain deeper inside the ear. And nose consciousness supposed to remain deeper inside the nose. And all three of them together. Right? All three of them together. That's all named as eye, ear and nose consciousness. Then you have [ongden kogpa], which is the outer sense thing. Outer sense thing, which connected with the nose, things like that, which is the [ongden kogpa]. That is the...

Doctor: It's the actual sense organs.

Rimpoche: Sen... no, not these things, but something inside between that, what you see. And then comes the outer functioning of this, what you call... retina, and all this type of thing. They're outer [ongden kogpa]. So their physical level, we divided three of them, right? So, it is very hard to say the eye consciousness [migyu ongbo] is [dzo sem], little bit crazy. Yeah, really. Because when you name it [migyu ogba], and then you call it [yi che ongba], that'll be big crazy.

Doctor: Ok, well, good. Now I'm completely confused now, but [...] (laughs)

Rimpoche: (knocking on table) good.

Kathy: What'd you say? [...] Um, the point of the principle mind was, just simply perceiving? Is there an additional step that it's acknowledging?

Rimpoche: Yes

Kathy: ..that it's perceiving. So acknowledging is not part of principle mind...

Rimpoche: No

Kathy: It's a mental faculty.

Rimpoche: Ahh, well... it is there, it is there acknowledging it. It is another mental functioning coming up.

Kathy: Right

Rimpoche: That's what, call it [leh]... [chil leh]. I'm not sure whether this is going to be helpful or not. It's going to be little boring for couple of times. But maybe it makes sense. I do not know. Whether I'm capable of saying it or not. That is big question here. What do you think? Aura?

Aura: [...] capable of saying it?

Rimpoche: No, no. This will work better or not?

1:21:52.1 Aura: Definitely. [...]

Rimpoche: ...Tell me, yeah, of course... it's... I'm expect to take another couple of months for sure.

Aura: [...] if it's gonna make it more confusing or more clear?

Rimpoche: No, I mean, it's become helpful or not?

Aura: [...] very helpful.

1:22:06.6 Rimpoche: [...]?

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Huh?

Audience: I mean we have to start on it sometime.

Rimpoche: Right. Why you have to start on it? It's not even necessary. It'll be a little bit helpful, you know.

Audience: [...]

Rimpoche: Huh?

Audience: [...] (laughs)

1:22:28.8 Rimpoche: [Oh my god. I just don't want delay so much, ok?] Ok. So... So briefly we say... Just- sort of perceiving. sort of- Just seeing. Just touch. Just feel. You know. I'm not trying to say the five senses, ok? Senses are using as an example... Just for... Just... I ran out of word. I think the word what Ram Dass uses, "Just be there." I think that's the really convincing word. Yeah, Just be there. I think that is really how the principle mind is. And then a little more detail. It's interesting.

1:23:58.3 Thinking of [?dug?] So, just be there. It's really meaning, doesn't bring your, sort of, intellectual problem knowledge. Just be there. That's what really try to be communicating it. In other words, push lot of those mental faculty business out. Just simply... so that means, maybe in English you just simply be there- means maybe getting the... drawing the principle mind's connection. Is it ok? Mm-hmm. I think that is about the figure we can hold it, for the time being. I'm not sure whether that's right or wrong. But let's get that hold there, and say something what we be able to hold it, and feel it, and play with it. Are you.. ok- Aura? Kathy? Kathleen? Ok with you? Huh? Are you here, or you're with [the dog?]

Audience: [...] (laughter)

Rimpoche: Huh? You're here, ok.

Matthew: Can I ask one quick question?

Rimpoche: One quick question, ok? (laughing)

Matthew: So, you're saying something that just main sem which means principle mind, is something we can easily perceive, right? I mean, we can just sort of...

Rimpoche: Always functioning...

Matthew: I mean, but can you perceive it by itself, or is any perception you have mixed with some faculty?

1:25:37.5 Rimpoche: For us, it's become very difficult to differentiate... faculty functioning. Because the faculties will immediately started functioning because they're the retinue. They immediately act, immediately alert. That's why it's called retinue. I mean, like...Indian... traditional Indian, the Maharaja says "Ahem," all the ministers- up, right? So, like that, the moment the principle mind sort of draws attention, all the faculties alert. Especially five of them! Five of them will become completely like that. So, five has to be there. If the five faculties doesn't function, then we get into problem. So, five faculties will be immediately alert. So, judging our mental project, to say- 'this much is principle, this much is faculty'- becomes difficult for us to get a picture, because it functions together. Almost together. So, therefore, it functions together, together. No difference- time.

1:27:06.0 The [principle mind] alert, the faculty alerts- immediately together. So this is going to be difficult for us- try to see it through functioning of mind. But that's what it is.

1:27:32.4 Now the second question, whether it is the [sem jun] and [sem], the principle and the retinue- Are they same? Or they're two separate? And that is different question. Again, it's difficult to even answer. So, because, you know, it's almost same. But is it really [same] or separate? It's all like looks like you created one problem, and after that you say- it is what now? (laughing) It's almost like that, you know? I mean, some sort of... thing. And even this.. the things here, also, the.. when you go to the material thing- they also create lot of things and then we say what is what, you know? Looks like you created big fuss and then big problem, and then makes like, looks like big fuss; and then afterwards you can't even know what is what. But moment you know what is what, and you can use it and become very functionable. And very similar to here. I mean, this time look like we created something called, there's a big division, there is mind, there's a retinue, there's 51 of them, and this and that. Ok, now, are they same or separate? ..and that's.. you can't even answer. So it's sort of creating- it is time of creating confusion. So, I hope I have created some kind of little bit of principle confusion here tonight. And, with that confusion, we stop. [Dag gyi ji nye sa pai..]