Archive Result

Soundfile 19901104GRLR1

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Ann Arbor

Topic Lam Rim

Transcriber Robin Trimarchi

Date

0:00:00.0 … generate, uh, pure thought. Thoughts, that uh, for the benefit of all sentient beings, I would like to, for the benefit of well, all sentient beings, I would like to obtain ultimate Buddha stage within this short lifetime. And uh, so, by obtaining stage of the Buddha I help, I render myself for helping all mother sentient beings. So, in order to achieve that, I would like to listen, study, practice and develop this stages, of was laid by the, the Buddha and disciples based on the, on experience. And so, do, with that attitude, do kindly listen to this, uh, part of the teaching. Or teaching, what you are going to listen, is, eh, the presentation of the outstanding development of the lamrim masters in order to demonstrate the effectiveness of the teaching tradition. And presentation of the exceptional qualities of the lamrim teaching in order to generate appreciation. The manner in which the instruction, transmission, was presented and received. The way in which the practice progressively leads the practitioner to the enlightenment. These are the basic outlines that we have presented to you without going in, uh, the detail of what lamrim is and all this and that. And out of this basic outlines, um, the presentation of the outstanding development of the lamrim masters in order to demonstrate effectiveness of this teaching tradition, we have covered, we didn’t talk much, but very briefly talked about the life of the Buddha, and um, and earlier Indian, did we talk anything about Indian masters? I don’t think so. So, I mean, Nagarjuna, Asanga, and all this, we consider they’re very important. So, I think briefly I touched it.

0:03:01.0 Uh, so, very briefly I touched it. But if you wanted to read more, ah, the books are available. Like the Indian Mahasiddhas. I think it is, uh, called “Buddha’s Lion” or something. What is it? “Eighty-four Mahasiddhas.” “Buddha’s Lions.” There are, there is a book available in English. This biographies of the eighty-four Mahasiddhas. Eighty-four. There’s eighty Mahasiddhas, normally you find a reference in the, there eighty Mahasiddhas. So, when they talk about eighty, they add up four Tibetan Mahasiddhas on top of eighty Indian Mahasiddhas. That’s why you have eighty-four Mahasiddhas. And among those Mahasiddhas you’ll find Nagarjuna and, uh, I presume you’ll find Asanga. I’m not very sure. I think you’ll find Asanga in that. Nagarjuna you’ll find. So, there’s a Ghantapas and, uh, [?], and all this, all of them you’ll find, of them, of all this great teachers you’ll find in there. So, we refer to that book. So, I’m not going to go in detail about lives of the great Indian teachers. Ah, we also refer to the Atisha who is also more important because this teaching tradition was brought by Atisha, made available to the Tibetans. So, we have a referred to the Atisha’s life, with the three outlines, and we also refer to the book in your hand. It’s called the, what is it? Yeah, this one, yeah. “Liberation in Our Hands.” Okay. Other than ‘your hands.’ (chuckles) Okay. So, we have referred to, we have referred to Atisha’s life story in that. I hope you be able, you have been able to read about it. And I’m sure some of you definitely read it. So, you’ll know what Atisha have, uh, yes. And it’s also the, there’s a reason why I presented this qualities. The outlines for the Atisha’s life. Um, um, it was [TIBETAN]. So, so, how Atisha took rebirth, and uh, how the qualities they developed. After developing quality, how Atisha helped and served. So, that’s very important way of breaking one’s life, actually. If you look at, there’s a reason for that.

0:06:00.7 Otherwise, you can, you can make out, you can, you can cut them anyway you want to. Right? So, it didn’t. And it, sort of, birth is important, and then all other activity. Birth is important. I mean, we don’t go, it is important not because it is a prince and this and that, that’s not the reason. He’s taken rebirth, it is important. I mean, prince been important at that time, if he’s not prince he may not be that effective because people pay a lot of attention to his prince, right? So, that might be a little bit there. But it’s not that, not the most important thing. Most important thing is, he had been there on that, at that time, at that place, what is needed to be served. And that is important. And then after that, we didn’t say how many retinue he has, how high the throne is, how much banners they have, how, how high they blow their trumpet, we don’t talk about that. And we talked how Atisha developed qualities. And that’s important. That’s what we needed. And that’s everybody needed. Right? So, the qualities. If you find it been translated as education or knowledge, it is mistake. It is quality. Quality. Because you know, the word [Tibetan word] in Tibetan, lot of people translate it, I notice, as ‘educated,’ or ‘education,’ or ‘learning,’ or something like that. That’s not. That’s mistake. It is ‘quality,’ okay. Because if you look back into the Sanskrit, it is [Sanskrit], the word is [Sanskrit], [Sanskrit] being in ‘quality.’ The quality what individual develops is not that educational thing, you know. Um, it’s not that educational thing. But it is more the quality. So, what sort of quality Atisha developed? And um, after developing quality within that individual, what did that individual do with that quality? How it help the others, okay. So, this are important way of breaking. So, this is, it’s not that, it didn’t break, didn’t go in detail, you know. How the qualities been developed, what kind of quality Atisha get it. And after getting the quality, how Atisha helped through that quality to others. You know what I mean? So, this isn’t important. And so, that’s way you can, you turn their life story as a role model for us to practice, and to us to function. And that is the important.

0:09:00.2 And it is demonstrate how the practice of the lamrim helped to develop the qualities. And after developing, what they do. So, this way it breaking is very important. It doesn’t say, uh, all other, sort of, you can break any way you want to. Right? And they didn’t do it. What part of upper part of what earlier age, and middle age, what eh, what eh, at the end. Or they break any way they do. They didn’t. They did where it break is the, the rebirth is important, and how developed quality, and how it helped. That’s really important to look. Pay attention to that. Okay? Then we touch little bit of the Tsonghkapa. Did we touch it? Did we talk? So, then there’s not so much time to, actually, if you, if you read this, eh, “Liberation in Our Palm,” it should all, it should also talk quite good up to, to Pabongka. I think it talk up to, at least up to Pabongka’s teachings. Very briefly, one of those important points. And also, it will talk how the tradition of the teaching from Atisha been divided into three different roots. The divisions are not Atisha divided. When Atisha taught and give the presentation, and individuals, when they pick up, according to the capability and ability of the individuals, so, they went like three different directions. And if you read in that, there should be one went into rather detail, very detailed, it’s touching more, sort of, academically, scientifically, going much deeper. And, I mean, the scientific, don’t think about the, mixing up the materials and, uh, that, sort of, you know, not working with the substance, but, um, the, sort of, um, analytical. Thurman calls ‘inner science.’ But, the Tibetans, uh, the Tibetan word, uh, traditions also give the, the, in that books, in Tibetan traditional Buddhism talks science a lot. So, the word ‘science,’ it doesn’t mean the Western science here, you know. There sort of, Thurman make ‘inner science.’ He calls, didn’t he call ‘inner science?” Yeah. He calls ‘inner science,’ or something. So, whatever it may be, it is sort of logical-based, uh, normally, sometimes when we say it is scientifically, it is right type of, don’t you say that? (Name). [student responds: I would say ‘systematic’] Systematic, all right, that’s good.

0:12:00.3 Systemically. I mean, it’s, uh, very systematic, and um, systematic because it’s one will push to the other, really it’s very, it’s very nicely it worked out that way. So, Thurman translates and said, the ‘inner science.’ So, so, that’s uh, how it works, anyway. And uh, what else now? Okay. So, so, there’s the life of Tsonghkapa, that’s right, I referred the life of Tsonghkapa to the book, or the Thurman did, ‘Life and Works of Tsonghkapa. Okay, most of the Tsonghkapa’s life story, this very short one but, you’ll find basic importance of the Tsonghkapa’s life and work. Uh, life, in that Tsonghkapa’s life and work. Try to read that as part of it. Because if I keep on talking, all those lives of each, eh, teacher, we probably, by this time next year be still talking the same thing. So, there’ll be, so, I mean, the way I’m begin to realize, when we have only one day in a month, there only twelve months in a year, yeah, really, um, so, so, out of, so, it really makes, when you look at it, it looks very long, years, you can tell two years, three years. But if you really boil down to, it will be like a couple of hours. So, I mean really. You look, once a month, that’s twelve, and out of twelve you cut before, before nine-something it’s out. And then 9:30 people won’t be here, we won’t, I won’t be here, so, another half an hour goes, and then, uh, we have all this prayer thing to do, then we take a lunch break, then we talk, and then we have to close, right? And so, uh, if you, though it may say 9:30-5:30, or 9:00-5:00, whatever it is, but if you really boil down to, there’ll be like two, three hours for maybe, maybe, maybe five, six hours they’ll be there. So, five, six hours multiply by, say five multiply by, say six, multiply by twelve will be what? Seventy-two hours. Okay, that’s that. I mean, what you going to cover in 72 hours? Uh, not much for lamrim. In a traditional Tibetan system, they start like 12:00, at the time, 12:00 noon. And it may go to 10:00, may go to 9:00 in the evening. Or may go to 11:00, 11:30, it depends. So, that’s a, every day. It goes on day after day for like two months or three months.

0:15:00.1 And that’s what normally, that’s lamrim, how it covers. So, that’s how it is. So, we skip all those, and uh, when there books and information is available, just refer to that back on that. And also, if you want a little more detail talk, you also have the tapes available. Is it available? [student responds] No, I skipped, even that time. I remember, I skipped all the preliminaries at that time. So, because uh, I skipped preliminaries, and I don’t know why I did, but. [student comment] Yeah, okay. So, we’ll start it from, uh, in the suffering. [student comment about the death meditations] Yeah. I don’t know how I did it, but uh, I remember I skipped the preliminaries, okay. Anyway. Preliminaries are important. And why is it important? Because if the preliminary preparations are not good, the actual practice will also be not good. So, that’s why we try to stick to the Ganden Lla Gyema. Actually, lamrim preliminary is not the Ganden Lla Gyema. There’s called, there’s a separate thing called Six Preliminary Practice, which has something like forty pages. Ah, forty pages or something. And I heard Geshe Sopa in Wisconsin has some kind of shorter version of that. I haven’t seen it. If it’s there, we may be able to think of switching it later, if I find reasonable, uh, thing, if that be able to switch it. But eh, the essence of the preliminary is the Seven Limb, and which is in the Ganden Lla Gyema. So, I thought you can have both combination of it. So, so, we use the Ganden Lla Gyema plus the Foundation. So, that serve two purposes, everybody can do that everyday practice, plus, this will serve the purpose. That’s why we are doing this thing. Okay? Now, ah, I believe we have, we have to say we have covered presentation of the outstanding development of the lamrim masters in order to demonstrate effectiveness of this teaching tradition. I do not know how it demonstrated effectiveness. But we have to presume it, we covered. If you don’t read it, that’s it. You can’t be, can’t help it. Just read it, okay?

0:18:03.0 And if you have questions and doubts, eh, then you can talk later. And um, even in that, eh, “Liberation in Our Palm,” we talk, eh, Atisha’s thing. Rather, esoteric, what, exotic? Rather, sort of, Vajrayana way. Esoteric, thank you. It will also talk quite lot of Atisha’s life in esoteric way. [side comment] So, we covered that. Now, the outline to, that has no meditation, okay. You can rejoice. You can read, and activities of the great teachers and rejoice. And uh, if you want to, you can say, uh, [TIBETAN]. Um, so, you can, you can rejoice and you can say the great master, uh, whatever your way of doing, and [TIBETAN], I forgot just now. So, whatever the way, however the way you have done, and uh, developed your own development and help others, I and all mother sentient beings may be able to be like you. Or something like that. If you pray, rejoice and pray, and that, that serves. Okay. That’s that purpose. And uh, so you can do that. And that’s all, there’s no other meditation on that. Now, the second is presentation of the exceptional quality of the lamrim teaching in order to generate appreciation. Okay, now, there are exceptional qualities in lamrim teaching. But first, you have to, in order to get individual interested, and just now, what we are doing so far, is we know spiritual path is something important. We know. And we also know, something in that Tibetan tradition carries something very unique and important in that.

0:21:01.6 And somehow, we are forcing ourself, we have to do that in that, because there is something to gain. We don’t really know exactly what’s in there, what you can really gain. So, there’s a interest, there’s a certain amount of force, you have to push, and uh, some people will go through, some people will at the middle of get tired and drop out, and some people get burned out, some people get, um, ah, say, ‘well, there may be something, I do not know,’ maybe, whatever it is. So, all these things are, will happen. And some people will think, whoa, this may be better than that, and this may be better than that, and that might be better than this. You know. Because, you know, when you try to deal with ourself, I mean, I don’t have to go back on this point. The point is the, we say the spiritual practice is what? To fight our own delusions and difficulties and change our habitual patterns so that we function without, effortlessly function the right way. I do not know, ‘right way’ is the words should be used or not. But function correctly so that every action will create good karma so that we have, we have good karmic result always we can in our, ah, sort of, storage, or in our disposal, always available the good karmic result. And we don’t have bad karmic result. That is how we’re changing. So, that has to function automatically, rather than you have to tell yourself, ‘I have to do this,’ and somebody has to tell that, ‘hey, you have to do that.’ Okay, if you’re in old times, and you can get little sticks and get behind, and um, and that’s what it is. And uh, (chuckles). And it’s remind me very funny, and anybody would like to relax stretch your legs, please go ahead. You know, just stretch your legs. There’s no problem at all. So, we have that all the time, we do. So, just don’t lie down, okay. That’s important. (chuckles) Some people will go to the extent of lying down. So, you don’t lie down, but eh, just stretch your legs, stretch your legs, that’s out. And don’t sleep, okay? (chuckles) Okay, so, what else it? What are we talking? Yeah. So, the habitual patterns, okay. The patterns, it should be automatically functioning. And um, if you are, if you do yourself in certain way, if you bring yourself in certain way all the time, so, then the automatic effortlessly functioning within you is there.

0:24:03.5 It sort of becomes, some people will say you, it’s by naturally that fellow does this and that. It’s not by natural, nothing is natural. Naturally we don’t even exist. So, we’re zero level, right? So, but we have built up that habit. So, when you build up a habit, you don’t have to be pushed by somebody. Until you build up that habit, you been pushed by people, too. In traditionally, um, ah, the, and they push you. By anything, you know. And I was talking yesterday with a few friends and, sort of, remembered me, [inaudible], and, like we see in Zen tradition where they bring little, big, long stick and hit you from the back, though you or not hurt, right? And that is nice way of doing it. Uh, in the traditional Tibetan system, they beat you like anything. I been through. (chuckles) They really beat you. You know, I been through, lot. Um, if you don’t behave, don’t, don’t, do the wrong thing, they tell you, and tell you, tell you, and when you don’t listen it, they really beat you. Not only the, not only a little spank at the back, they really beat you hard, (chuckles). Beat you. So, that’s what they do. And when they beat you, you also learn that, (chuckles), it needs to, it needs to be changed, you know. And, I was talking with somebody, some friends discussing yesterday, so, things like that it will pick up. Even I noticed myself, and as when I’m a kid, little kid, you know, about eight, nine, ten, eleven, I think about up to 14, 15, I really had lot of beatings. And I do remember once, it’s about, eh, when I was 11, I think, we have to go to some ceremonial function, you’re supposed to ride a horse. I couldn’t. I have to stand up on the horse most of the time because, eh, beat up and (chuckles), you know, cuts and wounds there completely from, uh, um, what you call this? When your, lower part of the body, the other side where they beat you up, so I got. I’ll be stand up on the horseback. And also, I’d learned the habit, I learned the habit, and uh, and when I’m 16, 17, I have students learning, and I’m very east to hit with mala, ‘pow!’(chuckles). Hit without anything, but, without any hesitation. Yeah. I did.

0:27:00.0 And those people are maybe, you know, I’m maybe like 16, 17, right? I’ve told three times, four times at the most, and then I would hit. I’m not angry or anything, I just hit. So, there maybe hitting at thirty or forty-years old, (chuckles), hitting it, I did that, you know. And later on, when I came to India and I’ve seen, I met these people around, they’re now senior geshes and things like that, they’re all. And when you see them, I feel very embarrassed because, you know, I give them a hitting (chuckles) And uh, also, I notice, I pick up that habit. I pick up, I noticed that, I get exactly, I tell you what. In 1970, no, might not be ‘70. I think it is, either ’69 or ’70, around about that time I have a dog. Little dog. So, I notice myself, I’m beating those dogs with mala. And uh, one day I did notice that I’m beating a dog with mala. And I said dog, that dog, ‘I told you.’ (chuckles) And then I realized what I’m saying. I told you, I’m taking, I’m talking to dog, right. ‘I told you, why didn’t you listen to me?’ (chuckles) Why didn’t he understand? I was so stupid. Yeah, it is dog, right? (chuckles) So, of course. My telling doesn’t mean anything. And then I realize I was picking up that old style of habit, what I’ve been, what I had been through at the childhood. So, I said, okay, I have to change. Since then, I don’t use my mala, because that dog. That some kind of, uh, little brownish dog. Nice one. And so, I beat him up. You know. I said, ‘I told you,’ that’s what I’m telling him, what I’m talking. So, that’s what I caught me. ‘I told you.’ Said, I told the dog, I said, ‘you can’t do that.’ And of course, dog’s a dog. So, that’s how you get. So, the habitual patterns are how we develop, that’s very important. So, we have to develop our habitual patterns. So, the, our partnership, or the companionship of the spiritual friends also become very important to pick up the habit of individual. So, because you intend to pick up, right? If you are smoker, if you are not smoker and you have a friend who smoking all the time, chimney-type of thing, there’s a more chance of you’re picking it up and you becoming it. Rather than lesser chance of your getting rid of it.

0:30:01.7 And, uh, similarly, if you have a spiritual friend or spiritual guide or teacher who also behave badly like I do, so you are also, eh, tendency toward pick up a bad habit. And uh, so, so, that’s that. So, that’s why it is important to also have, eh, a good spiritual friend rather than, than bad ones. That’s one reason. And also, similarly, ah, most important, most important is yourself. Ourself. If we know how to behave ourself, and if we don’t know, you learn how to behave ourself. And uh, then you remind ourself how to behave. And you constantly remind your, ourself. Whatever, if you have to write a note to yourself, do it. If you have to put some kind of sign that remind you ourself, hang it on the wall. Or hang it on your forehead. Whatever you have to do, do it. And get constant remind to ourself so that we pick up the habit of good way of thinking and functioning. It doesn’t matter how you dressed up. Or it doesn’t matter how you sit, or it doesn’t matter how you sleep. Does matter a little bit, but not that much. But it’s most important thing is how you think and how you act because thinking, as body, mind, speech are the three ways of creating a karma. So, thinking mind is the most important. The mind makes the body, my body and speech function. So, the key is on the mental stage. So, if you keep on correcting your mental attitude all the time, so, the result of that mental attitude is the body and speech function, which will automatically correct it without putting effort. Because of the, it is the mind which does behind. So, the lamrim is one of the best way to touch the key that is the mind to put in the correct manner. And that is the most important quality of the, this is right here, qualities of the lamrim teaching. Okay. And so, if you realize that, you will definitely appreciate it. If you don’t realize that, then that’s it. You have to force your interest, you have to drag you in, and after some time, how long can you drag yourself?

0:33:05.0 So, nothing. So, you’re bound to be losing it. And that’s what ninety percent of the spiritual practitioners who have interest, who did not develop appreciation, and then, sort of, after some time they dropped out, because how long can you make yourself do things which you don’t understand what you’re doing, or you don’t appreciate what you’re doing. And you just simply believe somebody has told you that’s great, and so you think, ah, that’s great, I’m going in that direction. But you didn’t have anything by yourself, within you. You don’t have the drive and the energy that’s what you needed from your own way. You don’t have it. Why you don’t have it? Because you don’t appreciate it. When you don’t appreciate, why you don’t appreciate it? You don’t know what you looking at it. You don’t know what you’re getting at it. Okay. And even you read the books, and the books are done in such a way, it sort of very dry, it’s sort of, it’s not juicy. So, (chuckles) it's not juicy so it makes you even, sort of, more difficulty. So, that’s what it is. So, the essence of it, what lamrim does, is it really help you to change your mental attitude. To change your way of dealing with things. Sort of, once you, it is the key figure. Um. There number people who, number of people who does things with the different things, and also does lamrim, and they appreciate much more. Um, even, even within our friends, we have (name). Right. If you talk to (name), she will tell you. We mentioned in the other group where (name) is there, but eh, when (name) first came, how did she came? I think it was in your house? (names) Do you remember when (names) first came? Huh? [students respond] Yeah. I mean, that was the beginning of the time when (name) came in. And she came in such a way, she’s impossible. And now you look at her, and she’s big, becoming sort of quite solid and though, how, she is very young, but still in that.

0:36:05.6 And she does other retreats, too. And she said, more she does other things, she appreciated how the lamrim affects her. She has more and more appreciation. So, she flies away from France to get to our retreats, you know. So, so, that’s what she does. So, she say how effective it becomes. I mean, effect with the individuals. And each one of us, if we started looking back, and you will see, you begin to see that, not in two months, not in three months, but like you go a long time, in years, you look back you will see it. And uh, lamrim has that much affect. Without realizing. Lamrim’s not going make you fly in the air. Lamrim’s not going to make you to develop how to remain under the ground. They’re not going to teach you how remain in the ground. Nor lamrim going to teach you how to walk on the fire. No. But that, that will make you how solid one can become if one really opens and develops. How solidly build up foundation within individuals. On that is the quality of the lamrim we can relate to. Okay. Now, let’s go back what this one says. So, on this tradition. So, what is it? Um, who has the outlines? Somebody has it? How many there now? [students talk] Presentation of the exceptional qualities of the lamrim teaching in order to generate appreciation. That’s what we worked with the (name) and we stopped there, working. Okay. Now there is A), you have A). A), what is it? Experiential understanding of the instruction, instructions, will knit the meaning of all spiritual teachings into single fabric. I don’t even have the Tibetan version. What happened to it? [students talk] Huh? You have different words, yeah, I know. What do you have? [students talk] Okay, what do you have? What do you have, Aura? [Aura Glaser responds: You will understand that there are no contradictions in all Buddhist teachings.] That’s right.

0:39:01.1 You understand no contradictions, and this is the, the, the, the [?] copy says, right? [students talk] 2A). So, we had said the experiential understanding of these instructions will knit the meaning of all spiritual teachings into single fabric. Okay. You want give a little explanation on that, Aura? Talk a little bit on that? [Aura Glaser responds: When one first comes into the lamrim practice, or to Buddhist practice, and you look at all these teachings and different presentations, it can appear to the individual that well these things say all these different things, you look at the sutras and it says one thing, so you look at the tantras and it says something else, and there’s a sense that these things somehow don’t go together. Like, how can, in this say, you know, you should abstain from eating meat, you should abstain from these particular kinds of conduct, and other practices say, oh, you should eat meat, and you should do this and do that. And that there’s, um, for the individual looking at it from the outside there’s a sense that, um, how could these things possibly go together? You know, they just seem so different, and it seems like these teachings are contradicting each other. But that when you begin really working with the lamrim, um, as far as the stages of the path, you understand that the different, the teachings are presented at different times, in different fashions, to suit the needs of the individuals who are operating at that particular part in their own development. And that the words may be different, but the nature, or the meaning, is really the same. So, the meaning is there, that is connects from whatever angle the individual’s practicing, it connects them with deeper development, insight, awareness, wisdom, compassion, all those things, that’s the meaning. The methods and the approaches in the things that are presented may seem contradictory in the sense that the words and the particular directives may be different at different times. So, the lamrim brings those all together so you see the interconnectedness of the, um, of the teachings so they don’t appear to be contradictory.] Okay, now, I would like to say one thing here. Uh, normally we talk about, this, this here, we’re not only, eh, we’re not supposed to only say about the qualities, special qualities of the lamrim, but also mention the special quality of dharma itself. Which we say, all the teachings.

0:42:03.2 Um, so, we did mention about dharma a lot. About the quality of the dharma and what really dharma is, and everywhere. So, somehow, more or less, I’m sure all of you have quite good understanding of dharma, including those who are listening to the tapes, I presume. And, if you have a difficulty of understanding of dharma, would you like to raise questions? Presumably no. Uh, so you know what dharma really is. And what does dharma do. We talked to you earlier. I just mentioned that a while ago. Correcting individual way and functioning and creating somehow better karma all the time. Correcting. Actually, it is correcting. Making a correction. Correction of the wrong behaviors we have due to delusions. Somehow, we be able to correct it. That really what it is. That’s what really is. The word ‘dharma’ is Tibetan is chö. Chö is past the tense of chö, which means ‘correction.’ So, you correct your wrong behaviors of the, the wrong thing what you do. So, out of, lot of, lot of dharmas are dharma within, lot of specific divisions are there. Out of all which whole lamrim, what we do, the lamrim, is somehow during the Buddha’s teaching period nobody calls ‘lamrim’ at all. Lamrim. Nobody. The word ‘lamrim’ came when Atisha came to Tibet. When Atisha first came on the Tibet, the Tibetans have to suffer tremendously in order to develop the pure teaching of the Buddha. Pure teaching of the Buddha. The pure teaching of the Buddha first came in Tibet, then it was, eh, influenced by lot of mystical, magical, uh, all this, and the Tibetans are very fond of, you know, the daggers flying in the air, and uh, the, the, the persons flying in the air and all this. They’re very fond of it. They took very much to that, and essence of the actual practice is becoming shaky and weak. And that’s why those kind, the people, the rulers of that period, are very much concerned and they wanted improve, uh, the quality of the Buddhadharma itself as, uh, individual practice. Individual upliftment, rather than, uh showing, exercising, power or knowledge or healing or, or anything, you know, any magical mantra, mystical power.

0:45:10.4 Sort of, it is made, which is, of course, the result of individual development as well as by mantra power alone and magical power, you can do it. So, it becomes important. And actual important point becomes secondary. So, they thought it is absolutely needs to be improved. And so, they looked in India, which is the source of all dharma coming from. So, they found a suitable Atisha, that’s why, how Atisha was invited, which is as part of Atisha’a biography, you can see it. When Atisha reached in Tibet, the Tibetan ruler at that time [audio goes quiet] … Atisha. I’m not interested something very magical, mystical at all. I’m interested something which affect the individual mind, and there on to be able to lead to the stage what the Buddha had obtained. And uh, whatever your essence practice might be, so kindly give us a short and easy one. We are, sort of, sort of, backward, stupid people. That’s what we always said. Backward, stupid Tibetans. We don’t know much detail. We don’t know anything. We’re not intellectual, and we need something very essence and short to practice. So, Atisha replied to that and wrote little text. I mean, very short one called ‘lam drün,’ which is the light of the path. Lamp of, what? [student responds] Lamp on the Path of Enlightenment, okay. Lam drün. So, also, not only a lam drün he wrote, he said, due to the request of good disciple, and he referring to the ruler of Tibet, and that’s very often in the teachings, they emphasize why Atisha called ‘good,’ Not because that person happens to be ruler, but his request was on the point. They’re not interested mystical, magical, but pure, clean, and real essence, solid practice. And that’s why Atisha even referred as good, uh, disciple to the ruler.

0:48:02.6 And so, the lam drün, since lam drün, the word of the ‘lam,’ which is the ‘path,’ came in talk. So, the path, the lamp of the path, and stage of the path, and all this, sort of. If you read in the Buddha’s, Buddhist canon, it is scattered everywhere. Even you read Maitreya’s transcendental teachings, it is scattered everywhere. It is not like lamrim will have the, the Guru Devotional come first, and this stage in which you do, it’s not in organized anywhere else, except in this. It is everywhere, but it is, you have to pick up from there this point, you have from there that point, you have to combine them together. Sort of, Atisha combined them together, made sort of, ready-made TV dinner available for us to eat. So, that’s why, that’s why this Atisha’s teachings are the real, sort of, basis on which whole lamrim has been working. And, not only the lamrim, the Gelugpa tradition, but even the Kagyu, Sakya, uh, and all they call it [Tibetan word]. [Tibetan word] is a little less than lamrim, but ah, Sakya’s have something else they call it. Lamdre. Sakya’s call it ‘Lamdre,’ the, the Nyingma’s call it [?], and Kaguypa’s call what? [student responds] Uh, some call ‘Chag chen,’ but the Drikungs will call it [?]. I think Karmas will call it ‘Chag chen, Drikungs will call it [?], and there are all different, sort of, names, Drukpa have some different name for that. So, anyway, sort of, essence what the Atisha worked. And uh, so, Atisha’s, uh, work of the lamrim is the, out of all these dharma thing, they choose this as a fundamental basis, the stages, how it works on that. So, why it is important. Why you do this? So, this is not only a shorter practice, but also it has essence of the both sutra part. You know, you understand sutra part. Sutra. You need little explanation on the sutra part. (Name). [student responds: So, then there are discourses of the Buddha pertaining to practice. Do you want more explanation than that explanation?] Sutra and tantra. [student responds: the distinction between the two? The sutras represent more of the public, the public discourses and the (inaudible) practice. Tantra is a fruition practice, and uh …]

0:51:10.1 Oh good. Sutra is the public and tantra is what? Um, what, you have clubs called what? Exclusive. (chuckles) Tantra, I don’t, is it good? Good explanation? [student continues: no] No, good eye. I’m glad. (chuckles) Okay, anybody else want to try. (Name) [student responds: the only thing I would add to that is that, um, the sutra practice is more cause-oriented, and um, tantric practice is more result-oriented.] Hey, how does that sound? (Name) [student inaudible] See, as (student) says, sutra is causal-oriented, and tantra is result-oriented. That’s it. Sutra is known as [TIBETAN], which is causal yana, and tantra known as result yana. Would you like to clarify a little more? No? [student responds: I guess with my limited understanding, um,] Limited, yeah. Very limited (chuckles) [student continues: that um, in sutra practice your taking these, you’re containing yourself as being this, um, ordinary schmuck right now, and taking steps to gradually get to this higher place, and then you have to, you have all these various practices that we do. Whereas, in the Vajrayana practice you sort of, uh, try to see yourself as, um, this may be totally wrong, try to see yourself as enlightened right now, and not by thinking you’re better than anybody …] That’s good. Yeah, the functioning, of the, the, the, the result time of your functioning is also you try practice even now, almost with imaginative activities. So, so, that is why it’s called result practice. Did I say something wrong? Okay. (chuckles) Okay, anyway. So, that’s, and even the sutra, when you’re Mahayana, Hinayana, Theravadin, blah, blah, blah, all of them are part of sutra. Their principles are the sutra principle. So, the lam drün covers the essence of the both tantra and sutra, and that’s why they been chosen this to work as a basic foundation.

0:54:06.6 That’s one reason. Two reason, the way the lam drün was presented is, eh, actually is focused to deal with the mind. To training the mind in proper direction. To training the mind, rather than to make it, eh, little more detail in the philosophical or metaphysical way. But it sort of went through a training mind as a major principle. So, it sort of, it’s geared towards to train the mind as a, it is important point. That is the second reason, and also it makes very easy to individual to practice. So, it is geared towards training mind, and it makes very easy for the individual practice, with these two reasons, um, and um. And the third reason, there’s more qualities, more techniques given for it, anyway. Third reason’s not that important, but these two reasons are important. It is short, yet, it had concise, uh, explanation, the essence of both sutra and tantra, one. Two, it geared towards training mind and easy to practice. And that’s why this is the, uh, the important. And make why the twice of this is made. Okay? Now, I forgot, what time do we normally stop here? [discusses time. Audio pauses, restarts] So, the teachings are not contradictory, that was the point we’re talking. Okay, now, what is teaching? What is teaching? That is important. So, the teaching here, teaching here is, try to, teaching means, what is it (name)?

0:57:00.9 [student responds: I think it’s just when someone shares their experience with you, and then you understand what their experience was, and that’s how you learn] Yeah. In the sutra, in that Buddha’s word, they called it here, it says, [ TIBETAN]. That’s it. Teaching here means, those who are seeking the ultimate enlightenment of the Buddha stage, to introduce them what to be known, and what to be, what to be give up, and what to understand, and what to meditate, and what to practice. Did you get it? You need to meditate. In order to meditate you need to know what you meditate. Right? Otherwise, you can meditate on your girlfriend’s face, too. And that is meditation, and, made meditation sound very cheap, but it is. Why not. You can do that. So, what you meditate, meditation is a technique. I mean, in English, in the West, you don’t do that, right? I mean, you make meditations very secret and something, just because by calling meditation, it’s packaged and make it look like very secret up there, over there, you leave it. You don’t mix with that, you know. Something you make division and leave it up there. But in reality, when you think what is meditation? It is nothing but getting mind used to it by concentrating, bring it up on the point, a certain points, and you’re making that point, getting used to it. And almost you become the point within you. Okay? Concentration meditation is, you keep on concentrating, and you concentrate so much so that any other thing cannot disturb your concentration, isn’t that. Which means, you’re, if your mind is totally observed in. How you get observed in you, by getting used to it. Is there any other way? If there’s any other way, tell me. There is no any other way. You getting used to it, I mean it, really. You make it very secret. So, anyway, I mean, that’s good way. I’m not criticizing that, don’t misunderstand. Way I talk, it looks like criticizing. But I’m not criticizing. Okay? That’s the way to do it. So, you can also do, uh, do meditation on your girlfriend or boyfriend’s face. Why not? You can do that. And that’s not becoming good meditation. So, in order to become good meditation, you need to know on what points you have to meditate.

1:00:05.2 Did you get it? Okay. Sitting. Concentrating. Sitting and concentrating is the technique how you do the meditation. So, what you really meditate is, when once you have the technique, once you put it on the point, focal point, and that is important. To be able to link with that object what you meditate, and technique what you have of concentrated, combined together makes the individual better. Or worse. Both ways. Really, it is. If you sit [?] without thinking nothing, just keep on sitting, and that may be able to bring your down a little bit because American life is so busy up, like you know, uh, so much. What we saw last night (chuckles), that’s really like what we have. Right? [makes busy sounds] That’s what you really have. So, it make, it help you to cool down and slow down little bit. The caffiene effect will be throwing it away. And it will be settled down little bit. Beyond that, what can they do? Not much. If you sit too long that way, you become even dull. There’s a danger of that, too. Too extreme way. If you sit [?] too long. So, what have to meditate is you have to balance. You have to bring down to the level, slow down and concentrate and stabilize, and then you’ll, then the question rise, on what do I do stabilization? And in the Tibetan tradition, I tell you what. The bringing down, slow down, is not too much emphasize. Because, by virtue of the birthright, we brought, we’re born (chuckles), I’m sorry. We’re born in, in the society which is already in stable level. So, don’t need it. So, not so much emphasize. So, you find them more emphasize, I mean, that’s there, it’s not that it doesn’t have it, it’s there. But not so much emphasize. But on the other hand we’ll find in Zen tradition, or all this, this emphasizing will come there. They make you sit and sit and sit. And sitting is to bring you down. Not going to fly in the air. So, make you sit for months together. If you can sit without talking, without doing anything, you may be able to sit for months. That’s great. That’s where you bring down. Many of us who fly in the air, I strongly recommend do that. Go and sit a month. Go do insight meditation.

1:03:00.5 And sit there, like with the Joseph Goldstein or Sharon, and try to sit there for month. It will help you to bring you down. Really. And once you be able to concentrate, bring it down, then on what you focus. And then the lamrim will come in picture. To tell you truth, that’s how it work. So, the Tibetan, uh, we don’t have that zigzag thing up there. So, by, sort of, by, by birthright (chuckles), sort of, brought in that way. Okay? So, so, now, the, my main point is to know what you, what you focus on that. It is very important. Otherwise, you can be concentrating on anything. Right? You can meditate how computer works. Yeah, you can, why not? And it helps you to work with computer, sure. The Japanese is almost meditate how to work with their hands and, uh, and thing. They almost meditate on that. And that’s why they’re effective. They make more money. (chuckles) Just joking. So, our interest is, uh, to be able to develop a stage of the Buddha. Okay? So, anything, uh, so, in order to develop the Buddha, we have to, stage of Buddha, we have to give up certain way of functioning. And you have to develop certain qualities. Right? So, we need to know what qualities we should develop. And we need to know what habits we have to throw it out. Otherwise, we’ll be gazing. We’ll be gazing [?]. So, so, so, without mistake, correctly showing you that path. That what to give up and what to pick up. That’s what the teaching is. And that also, it’s not that Buddha is something fantastic, and suddenly dropped from the, from the sky to show the way. No. Buddha builds up on his own experience. And shares the experience of his own development. And also, the lineage teachers. They share their personal experience. Okay? From this point onwards, we have more experience of dealing with the Western mind, and then above points. So anyway, it’s going to be more richer than before. Anyway. Or, I do not know.

1:06:03.2 Deviate the path, who knows? So, that’ why, that’s why, that’s why teachings of the Buddhas are sometimes referred as lecture, which, uh, which Thurman translated as what? [student: eloquence] Eloquence, what? Speech. Speech of eloquence. (chuckles) Okay, that’s what Thurman’s translation. Okay. So, here, but also the Buddha’s teaching is very important. Every single point of the Buddha’s teaching. Every single word has a meaning, has a purpose. A purpose relevant to me. Me, the individual. I’m not talking about me, the Gelek Rimpoche here. But I’m talking about me, the individual I, always have purpose and, uh, point. But Buddha is such a great thing. Buddha’s, what we call it, skillful way. Buddha try not to disappoint people all the time. Always. So, anybody says something, does something, somehow Buddha will try to make it right. Make it right and present. So, when it is suitable people, the Buddha will say, yeah, the world is flat. And when it’s unsuitable people, when there suitable people there’s ah, the Buddha is, the Buddha says world is round. If you read Kalachakra tantra, it is totally the world is round in that. But if you read any other sutra part, the world is flat. So, somebody did ask Buddha. You, you said the other place there, you said world is round, here you’re talking about flat, what are you talking? Are you crazy? And he said, ‘No. If I say world is round here in this people, they all think I’m crazy. So, that’s why I have to go according to that.’ So, the point is, Buddha doesn’t go beyond one’s, the, Buddha doesn’t go overhead. Buddha can easily go overhead but doesn’t. Why? [side comment] So, Buddha [side comment] So, Buddha does not go overhead people. So, sort of, talk to the level of the people so it serve the purpose. Okay. So, but he never said anything wrong. So, what I had earlier mentioned, yeah, you can eat meat or yeah, you cannot eat meat. Okay?

1:09:04.9 That’s two, two identically, contradicting, words, but I have used it. Both. Yes, you can eat meat and yes, you cannot eat meat. Both. So, he said, well, what is that? That is true to some people. You can eat meat. And it is true to some people, you cannot eat meat. Okay. The teachers have given example of when you have certain illness, when the doctor’s treating you in some points, eh, we’re talking about, we’re not talking about allopathic doctors, okay, we’re talking about, neither we’re talking about homeopathic doctor. The American mind is such a thing, if you say it’s not allopathic, they definitely think, oh, homeopathic. No. Ayurvedic doctors. (chuckles) Anyway, so, ah, in the ayurvedic tradition of the wholly treatment, they come from India, and it’s also from Buddha tradition. They tell you in certain illness you cannot eat meat. And certain time, you have to eat meat. You have to, no question. You have to eat meat for physical reasons, have the reasons. Even then. So, that was given as example, to certain people it is a practice, they do have that to certain, mostly to [?]. So, it looks like, this very gross example given, okay. Looks like a contradiction, but it’s not a contradicting. Okay. Not contradicting. Similarly, it’s good to listen to the music. And some place not good to listen to the music. Both Buddha’s word. He said, good to listen to the music, yeah, it’s very good. He said there’s a reason for it. And when it’s not good to listen to the music, there’s a reason for it. Similarly, it’s good to watch television now, and I’m not good to watch television. Very simple. So, looks contradicting, but there is no contradiction at all. Okay? The meat is gross example we have given. Ah. Now let’s say, in other words, let’s say anger, attachment. Attachment. Anger. Okay, you know, in one place where you go to the extent of saying the attachment is the glue to samsaric. Buddha said that. Samsaric life. It makes you stick to it. Makes you not be able to get out of it. Your stuck in it. That’s one way.

1:12:00.2 In the sutra practice it is true. In Vajrayana practice, [?], attachment can be used as a part of development. Transformation of attachment can become a part of it. Okay, that’s one word by Buddha, both yes and no, both by Buddha. It’s not contradicting. When the individual knows how to handle, it can help. That’s it. So, non-contradictory nature or whatever. So, that’s why we have mentioned here, ah, very nicely what (name) said is experiential understanding of this instructions will knit the meaning of all spiritual teachings in single comprehensive fabric. If you know good lamrim background, not only Buddha’s teaching, but also good teachings, whether it is Hindu or wherever you will find. Anything which is going ignorance. Okay. Even delusions, out of delusions, ignorance, ignorance is somehow only delusion where you cannot transform it. You have to get rid of it. There is a (Shadanta?) view, but the (name) goes on like that, grr, what you saying? So, but, but mostly the ignorance is, there is not the multi-view, right? There is a [TIBETAN]. The pride can be transformed as path, attachment, anger, but never the ignorance. Never. Even in tantra. No. The ignorance is the, somehow, somehow totally no. So, what did I’m saying? So, anything which going against ignorance, hitting ignorance, no matter whoever taught, taught by Buddha or whoever taught, so you may one be able to knit it together to one individual’s practice of fabric that you can wear it. Keep yourself warm. Or cool, whatever. But covered it up, you know. You can knit it in. And which is the quality of this teaching will give you. We give you very, eh, very strong example many times. So, if you have little foundation basis in your house, little tea and sugar and salt, separate pots, if you keep it. And if you find some additional anywhere you can dump them in one pot. If you find handful of sugar, you can put them in sugar pot. If you find handful of, of salt lying there, you can mix them up with the salt. Right?

1:15:00.4 So, if you have the basis of that, if you worked out, you’ll know where to do, what to do. Otherwise, if you find handful of salt and sugar, you can’t mix them together, you can’t do anything. Right? That is the problem. So, what lamrim does is provide this basis for the individual to be able to observe, so anything, wherever you get it, whatever. So, almost everything, wherever you look any point, make some kind of Buddhist, uh, message, or Buddhist something you work. It’s because it has this basis work with individual. So, wherever you look, you can look into the, to the, to some kind of, you can relate, and you can it sense through the spiritual path. You can able to meditate, because that’s what foundation worked out. Okay. That’s what the quality you get it out of lamrim. So, lamrim has that quality to be able to develop. So, that was the non-contradictory nature, whatever we been talking. Ah, maybe that’s good enough for that point. Huh? Otherwise, I should go a little more detail supposed to be, but. So, when they say no contradictory, I make it, I can little more clear. What does that mean? The word will contradict, yes, you eat meat, and yes, you don’t eat meat. It contradicts. But it doesn’t contradict with the individual at the stage of the practice wherever you are. It doesn’t contradict. There are times you need it, there are times you don’t need it. So. So, in this point, all, all of them be able to take a bite, one individual, to develop one, oneself to the Buddha stage without contradicting. You know that as a path. So, some of them become like a principle of the path. Some of them become like branch of the path. Some of them become important. Some of them are not that important. But somehow it will all help the one individual to move up. Did you get it? That’s why it doesn’t contradict. Let’s say if we are bodhisattvas. So, what is the activity of the bodhisattva. What is it? [student inaudible] Six for what? Why the bodhisattvas has to be, has to have generosity, patience, and all this, why? You just bring the six in. Why the six is needed? Why do you obtain Buddhahood? [students inaudible]

1:18:02.4 See, the point of the mind, how it works, okay. When the mind was me, me, me, me, I, I, I, I, I, I. Okay, that is ‘I’ obtain Buddhahood. Okay. Looking in that direction. [student responds: well, no, I’m looking for Buddhahood, clearly (inaudible) … that, to me, when I think of Buddhahood, I never think of Buddhahood as fulfilling my personal objective] You don’t? However, when you wanted to obtain Buddhahood, what do you think? The Buddhahood is for purpose of two. Me and others. But when you’re seeking Buddhahood, what do you think? [student continues: if you’re thinking, ‘I want to be Buddha …] Yeah. Do you or you don’t? [student continues: the odds are, you actually thinking, ‘I want …] Do you think, you, do you think you want to be Buddha or you don’t think you want to be Buddha? Be honest! (chuckles) Be honest. [student continues: honestly, I’ve never had one dream about becoming Buddha. So, I …] (chuckles) There you go. You dream dream, but do you, do you have desire? [student continues: I have desire, yeah] Okay. So, so, you’re thinking of becoming Buddha. [student continues: yeah, I’m thinking seriously about it. (group laughter)] Isn’t that a contradiction now? Like a, like the, like that, the Chinese thing, Charlie, Charlie, what that? Said ‘contradiction, please?’ Charlie Chan. In the, in the television they go, ‘contradiction, please.’ Contradiction, please? (chuckles) [student continues: I mean, I have the desire that others should be free of problems, and that I could actually solve them, somehow, that I could be in that position. So, I think of that combination] The essence of the, the desire of the bodhisattvas, in order to help and serve other sentient beings. In order to get that perfect, one needs to obtain Buddhahood. That’s why all the time we say, ‘for the benefit of all sentient beings, I would like to …’ For the benefit of all sentient beings. The reason why bringing on the mouthpiece, and like, on the lip, and not to become lip service, is the, the Buddhahood is to serve all other beings. Yeah, really. So, therefore, the essence of the bodhisattvas are to help others, right? So, in order to help others, like, you know, you, you find lot of different variety of the people. Some people are simply interested, ah, just to obtain liberation in, that’s that. Some people are interested only, ah, to become a bodhisattva and something like that.

1:21:01.3 And uh, some people have interest to, to practice Vajrayana and become a Buddha very quick. So, there are three, four, even for, some people are not even interested, and which you can’t help much because they’re not, when we say you want to be open. And so, they’re, they’re not interested, they’re not open. When they’re not open, what can you do? You can bang the door, and it don’t open, what can you do? You cannot break and rope them. So, you have to go away. That’s what normally it is. So, those who are open and interested will probably have three different categories. Right? So, the three different categories if you are bodhisattva. And if you want serve and help the three different category interest, you need to know the three different purpose. Three different ways. Three different points. Otherwise, you can only help the Mahayana ones, you will not be able to help the Hinayana ones. You are only be able to help the sutrayana ones, you’ll not be able to help tantrayana ones. So, in order to serve them three different categories, it is absolutely necessary to need to know the principal way how to get at least. So, that is the bodhisattva’s job. Otherwise, bodhisattvas will not be able to help. Like the Chandra, no, not Chandrakirti. The other one. Dharmakirti, has a [TIBETAN]. If you don’t know the method, if it’s, if it’s, if method is not known to you, how you can present? So, that’s why, if the bodhisattva wanted to help all other beings to lead, it is necessary for the bodhisattva to pick up those methods. Learn it. Practice. Gain experience. And then present. If you are, if you don’t know what you’re going to present, you can only show this. That’s it. What else. Right? [TIBETAN] I’m sure you have read that. It is the [?]. Ah, Maitreya’s, um, this Abisamaya. [TIBETAN] So, the bodhisattva path is also known as [Tibetan word] Right? The Buddha’s path is known as [Tibetan word], and our basic path is known as [Tibetan word]. So, the [TIBETAN], the foundation, the path, and the result. The bodhisattva is the path. So, knowing path is the bodhisattva’s job. If you don’t know the path, how you can lead?

1:24:00.5 How you can become a guide when you don’t know where to go. If you have no idea what highway to take to get to Lansing, how can you be, lead the caravan to Lansing. No way. So, it’s knowing is important. So, what does bodhisattvas have to learn? Bodhisattvas have to learn, have to learn three things. [TIBETAN] Okay. Would you like to say that in English? [student responds: you have to learn the path of the listeners to the doctrine, they called it ‘the hearers,’ (inaudible)] Did you all hear that? Sravakas, the Hearings. [student continues: then the solitary realizers] What is listeners? Did you get that? What he’s talking about it. There is a problem there. You did not communicate to the people. You understand, I understand, you understand. (laughter) But he did not communicate to the others. Please, help. [student continues: … I was just speaking about the three types, and uh, this is also a selection of three types of individuals practicing, three paths the Buddha taught. Two of them lead to liberation and one leads to enlightenment. To Buddhahood. Of the first category, those two types, there is those who listen and learn from teachers, and those who are, uh, developed their understanding on their own. And of those two types, the first is called the, in Sanskrit name, is called ‘Sravaka,’ which means ‘listeners, the doctrine, disciples path, I don’t know how it’s …] Did you get it? Did you get it, what he said? What did he say? You acknowledge, (name) acknowledge. What did you understand? You, you, you. [student responds: I’m not sure] He did the first path. What did he say? [student continues: well, he said there’s a thing called Sravakas, and I’m not sure how to spell it] Doesn’t matter, what is, he said, he, he, he called that ‘listeners.’ He called that ‘listeners.’ Listeners. What does that mean? He didn’t give that. That’s why, that’s why [student continues: … just listen to the teachings] Everybody listen to the teaching. Bodhisattvas listen to teaching but they’re not called ‘listeners,’ why? He didn’t give that.

1:27:00.7 [student responds: He said you listen and learn] Huh? The bodhisattvas listen and learn, too. [students crosstalk: Plus, there’s liberation. No, I explained the difference between what the Sravakas and the Solitary …] Pratyekabuddhas, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but what is Sravakas? What is ‘listen’ mean? You didn’t give them. [student continues: the way the Solitary Realizers work is, they …] The point is, you’re missing one important point. Get that point and so people communicate it straight away. [TIBETAN] They’re called ‘listeners’ why? Huh? They’re called ‘listeners’ why? [student continues: they study from teachers …] The bodhisattvas do that, too. Why they not called ‘listeners?’ [student continues: because they’re path is a different path. I mean, they once …] They practice. Practice what? [student continues: they practice the Mahayana] Mahayana. The others don’t practice, but they listen. That’s why called ‘listeners.’ That, if you compare that, it makes easy. The, the Hinayana practitioners, followers, are called ‘listeners’ by the Buddhas teach a number of times. Why? They said [TIBETAN] Says, ‘today I heard you are teaching Mahayana. I cannot practice that, but I carry your message and convey.’ So, they listen and repeat. But they don’t practice. So, they said, ‘this is not my path. I listen to your teaching, I carry your messages, passed on. I do not practice.’ [student questions: they don’t practice the Mahayana practices?] They don’t practice the Mahayana path. Path Mahayana, path what you hear. Not, they have their own practice. Right? Theravadin. They listen to the Mahayana path. So, they just carry the message and relay out, but they don’t practice Mahayana path. So, that’s why it’s called ‘listeners.’ Then, you know, then you got Sravakas, and [Tibetan] and all this. But eh, the important point is, listener is just listen. That is the highest job they do for Mahayana path. [student continues: So, the Pratyekas don’t even listen] Pratyekas don’t even listen, that’s right. They don’t even listen, that’s why. The Solitary Ones, they don’t even listen to it. [student continues: they don’t necessarily go alone. There’s groups of them. But they’re not necessarily alone] That’s right. (laughter) They like the open air a lot.

1:30:00.8 (chuckles) Anyway, let’s go that way. So, so, if you are bodhisattva path, so, you need, not only a need to know the bodhisattva principles, but in order to build the bodhisattva principles, you need Hinayana principles, too. And normally, you don’t call Hinayana because they get offended. Because they say, ‘we’re not smaller, you’re not bigger.’ It’s not the point of smaller or bigger. Ah, here, you call, purposely you choose call Hinayana because normally we say, ‘oh, I’m Mahayana, and this is Hinayana, yeah. Sort of, look down. You cannot. You don’t, if you don’t have the principle of that, you cannot build Mahayana. There was one Indian, eh, professor, very old friend of mine, he died. It’s called (Obadia?). (Obadia?) used to come to all the three monasteries, Drepung, Sera, Ganden, and the teachers, we’re having meeting, we had a meeting Varanasi once. And over there he came. And over there give talk. He said, ‘all you, I know,’ he said, ‘very few Indian Buddhist scholars will know what really Mahayana is, unfortunately, one of them who knows. But I will like to urge you people to, also, not to ignore the Hinayana path of it.’ He said, ‘your Himalaya is very high, but how high it is you cannot measure unless you know where the ground is.’ That’s what, over there, said that time. I think it’s very good talk he give. So. And I immediately said, next time, I said, makes immediately after that, what doctor over there said is very true. I sort of acknowledge that at that moment. That was meeting in, I think it’s Varanasi, I’m not. I don’t remember exactly whether it’s Varanasi or maybe down in south India somewhere. So, he said that. And that’s really true. He said in Hindi, Himalaya …

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