Archive Result

Soundfile 19950328GRLR

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Ann Arbor

Topic Lam Rim

Transcriber Baby Dee

Date September 23, 2021

0:00:00.0

Rinpoche: Hello everybody. 0:00:22.1 (unintelligible) continue to talk, what we've been doing, between last tuesday and today, 0:00:42.4 (unintelligible) we've got two thing to do there. One is to practice it in the confluence of -- what they call it, Buddhist teachers. Eastern, eastern -- Eastern what? 0:01:01.6

Audience: (unintelligible)

Rinpoche: (unintelligible)... :01:12.0 So anway, because most of the Asian teachers they call it (unintelligible) 0:01:15.4

And then we have like two days conference. And they're very nice people. People like (unintelligible) and there's one composing monk. (unntelligible) and then there is a acouple of others. And there's one nice British monk, who -- Amoro is his name? Anmoro. And (unintelligible) rinpoche (uninteligible) 0:02:31.0 kim buh kun zu (unintelligible) 0:02:41.0 and myself, three Asian born (unintelligible) teachers. And plus the lama 0:02:55.6 su re a ta, the guy who (unintelligible) to speak about it with (unintelligible) lot of (unintelligible) about what we do and so I'm gonna (uninteligible)

Audience: We never get a (unintelligible) this well. (laughter)

So lets see. so as Rinpoche says there were a number -- it wasn't actually that (unintelligible). It was probably, maybe twenty or twenty five people? Does that seem about right? Someething like that? About that number. And it was the first time this (unintelligible has been attempted to have some kind of gathering between Eastern and Western people who are involved with teaching the Dharma. And from that point of view I think if was worth while and interesting and people communicated about different things and talked about different topics and issues and it took place in (unintelligible) actually in the a separate building of the Zen center, a hospice center which some people may be aware of or know about but we met in that building which was actually quite impressive, that facility.

And it was hard to say what we really talked about but there was kind of a loose agenda that began with the Asian teachers being asked to discuss one by one what they each considered to be the -- where there was concern about the, our transmission of dharma in the West. What were their concerns about what was happening with the dharma that was coming to the west and so people spoke on that issue, the Asian teachers that were present, and then after that it opened up into kind of a general dialogue or -- Some of the dialogue, there were some amount of people just speaking about whatever. And then going on a dialogue and going on different subjects such as -- The role of women in the dialogue, and how that is changing or not changing and what some of the issues are that people perceive around that. The question of the authenticity of transmission and what is essential, what is cultural, what is not cultural, and there were a lot of -- One of the things that was interesting, I think, was that there were all the different traditions of Buddhism were present in some form or fashion, (unintelligible), mahayana, vajrayana, and actually there was a lot of recognition of people actually don't know very much about each others traditions. And there was an expression of interest in knowing more about each others' traditions and also if this is the first time happening in the history of Buddhism that other traditions have been in one place. In the same way this is the first time in the history of world where all the people of the world are in one place. So, in the United States (unintelligible) repeating that experiment with Budhism as well, with Buddhism being present in all its different form that having much more contact then they would have ever had. The japanese Buddhists would have never had much conact with Tibetan Buddhist a hundred years ago. So it was fun to talk about teaching and transmission and what's being transmitted and in telling it to teachers and what are teachers empowered to do and not empowered to do. Are western teachers ever going to be as empowered to teach as Asian teachers and so forth. There was a fair amount of conversation about that. And we talked about -- What else did we talk about?

0:07:31.0

Oh the issues of (unintelligible) and teachers' behavior and what to do when people are uncomfortable with the behavior of their teachers, or other peoples' teachers if people come to them and complain about, what are peoples' responsibilities along those lines? And what are peoples' different opinions about that. Kind of (unintelligible) ask them to play that with a major topic of conversation?

Rinpoche: (barely audible) .. is asking. If that object of another set or do we have to go on with this kind of kind of (unintelligible) of other questions, (unintelligible) Asia. For whatever they're doing,

Audience: But that whole issue of transmission of -- will there be Western teachers that are authorized as Westerners to have the same kind of status in teaching as Asian teachers and how might that work, and will that work, and can it work, and those kind of things. So, it wasn't like there were any conclusions drawn at all, but Rinpoche and I were talking about it a little bit and I think the main thing that came out of it was just that people met. And got to talk about these things and had a sense of more of a connection with each other, and some sense of knowing each other a little better. And then one of the things that also came out of it was, in Rinpoche's conversation with 0:09:27.9 tho dah was some kind of loose commitment to have a similar thing along the lines of a Tibetan teaching gathering. To try to happen within the Tibetan Buddhist traditions of Tibetan -- East and West -- kind of getting together and that hasn't gotten very far in terms of what that would look like or exactly what would happen but it seemed like there was some kind of commitment to try to do that within the next year or so.

I think that's about it. Unless there's anything else you want to say about it? It was, you know --

Rinpoche: (unintelligible) (laughter)

Audience: Alright, you can keep the mic. It was interesting in many ways. So that was it.

0:10:16.5

Rinpoche: One thing I have to say. After attending that conference for two days, along with Dev which is a well known American Buddhist teacher, who have been teaching Amerians, individually or institutions, looking at their way of thinking, and their level of, I can't say development, but their level of insight of the spiritual path, when you look at them, and when you look at the people at Jewel Heart, and though, we have been only like last four or five, six years, and when you look at them and look at the Jewel Heart people and particularly those senior group, who've been teaching and we can really feel we're not bad at all. We're not bad at all, and we have to -- can't say superior but what 0:13:00.0 (unintelligible) be here, there's no question. And so that's my conclusion. (laughs) And that -- there are all these big names, like Jack 0:13:27.7 orn fel and ser ten al i an su is a dov ehn i cho dren and all of them there. Even in the zen teachers, what 0:13:43.3 ru she was that? Some thirty ears ago she said? Norman, she said. That's a very good guy. Thank you. (laughs) Your 0:13:52.6 min tay sha is -- I think he's very good guy, Robert 0:14:00.0 ay ken ro che or some 0:13:01.1 ro che for thirty years or forty years or something.

All of them, and there's really big big names are in there. But when you really look at them and compare with the people in Jewel Heart, we're not bad at all. But really, I can't say superior, but. You're bad at all. So I was reall happy to see that. And that's my conclusion of that meeting anyway. So that was that. And really I mean look at back, we're like five six years, or seven years at most? Like Aura and Sandy, they've thirteen fourteen year but this is in India. And seniors are over here like six seven years at most. So those are the people who've been teaching Tibetan Buddhism for last fifteen years. And in one of the conversations they're talking about the students, student something something I slipped one in my mouth and Aura thought they didn't notice. And I said, Forget what these students. Look at the teachers what did they know? Get out of my mouth and I have to stay there (unintelligible) and I have to stand there saying something (laughter) Who cares about the students, I said, look at the teachers. I din't realize what slipped out of it. And once it's gone you can't take it back. But like they didn't get it. (laughs)

0:15:35.6

Or pretend not to get it or something. What? Probably they didn't get it. And also, saying empowerment or some kind of empowerment. Empowering the teachers and some kind of big stand. I didn't get it. For a long time I keep on thinking about it. I think I don't understand it so started talking and they said take out thing. So I started talking, I said, Empowerment or no empowerment, they respect, They really looking for respect and sort of acknowledgement. So I said respect has to earned from people. You can't -- not that you can give it. And none of it can inherit that. That is something you have something to offer? You offer. It help people, the like it. and then you can, if you have doubts -- I told them, I told them in Jewel Heart we forbidden people to do these sort of things, you know? Doing these sort of, in every way they get up starting doing like this. And everybody is like this. Everybody is like this. Every single word everybody says, it goes like that. (unintelligible) (laughter) So that we are forbidden in that way to do. And so by doing so some people, if you have something to give, and then people get it. And then is it helpful and they really gain a respect from the heart. And that you have to own. Each and every individual has to. and nobody can give that or inherit it. What I did not say, even you may get that and look at the 0:17:25.0 trumblen between say, 0:17:26.5 (unintelligible) So 0:17:29.1 toh toh Rinpoche did give a very pinion and thing and bad what was it in they did it? 0:17:37.0 Reason. So that's something you cannot give. It's something you have to earn. And there's nothing to keep you know> That's what it is. So this mention of this, and that's what it was.

0:17:53.6

So let's do our own business now. We've been taling about the concentration meditation and that also focus, not on outer object but on inner mind. So the last week, you know, we did briefly introduce object of the, object on which you meditate, in this case the mind itself. And so now, today we have to go on the problem. And problems I would like to base to talk to Nagarjuni's point presentation of 0:18:48.5 mui vuh lah gem du dje che...

0:18:53.0 So there are five important -- I mean, I did a talk and you know that. And I also did mention wandering mind and sinking mind is the problem for concentration. That, you know that. So now application of it and what when you tr to do this what sort of problems you -- You know, in the teachings what you really have to do is you have to introduce the problems. You may ot get it. If you sit down and you try to meditate you'll recognize these problems. So once you recognize these problems and when you try to sit down and when ayou encounter the problem then you have to know the solution and you have to apply. That's how it's solved. So first I would like to like -- Nagarjuni is best here. 0:19:54.2 Even if -- Why I'm doing Nagarjuni here? Because immediately after the concentration we have to swith on wisdom. So that's why, might well as go on the basis of the Nagarjuni's presentation here. So,

0:20:11.0 nye va lah beh du dje che...

0:20:15.5 So there are five obstacles and there are eight solutions to overcome those five obstacles. Now first and foremost obstacle and why can't I meditate? What will be the first obstacle? It is obvious. The laziness. Laziness -- don't want to do it. Right? And the priority of whatever your priority will be, of course. We're living in nineteen ninety five? Right? Five. The four is gone. Six has not yet come so it has to be five. (laughs) So in 1995 and everybody has the pressure -- pay your bills. Unfortunately, we're not living in seventeenth century. That's gone many hundred years ago. So we're not living in there. So we have to go according to the society where and how it goes. You know, incidently, Nafarjuni's outstanding disciple Chandrakirti who is the renown, looked on as

-- the come in to collect the cushion. There must be white over there is it? Is there white over there? --

0:22:20.0 Chandrakirti is one of the oustanding -- yeah -- and also the commentator for Nagarjuni teachings, one of the outstanding ones. And Chandrakirti says, One of the most important things is that you don't 0:22:47.4 win do ma la ki. He says, No matter what, absolute truth it's definitely very important thing but whatever is known in the society, however the society moving, the time and the period in which the society is moving, you have to move along with that. You cannot fought to lose that. And if you do lose that you will be labled as a crazy. The crazy cannot function. So that's what it is. So that you don't have a 0:23:25.9 win do ma la ki. So, it is very important. You should not lose the society way and how the society is functioning. You can influence, try to change to a certain extent, where and how you want to. But you cannot hijack them back to three hundred years and way of living, you cannot do it. So you have to move along with the period. And the more, that's why it's called 'degenerated age'. And the more challenge, more challenge, more challenge. And the more the challenge it is, and it become more difficult. It's always like that.

So -- And but on the other hand, advantages, this. There's more challenges there, more difficulties there but when you manage that it has been not only extremely helpful for yourself, but also to the others. And also the period of the 0:24:27.5 ste kle that you have to do is much shorter than that of period that they spend in two hundred or three hundred years ago. It differs. So that's how it goes. Wherever there are great things happening there are more obstacles, wherever there are more obstacles it's also advantage. That's how it works. So obviously pressures and difficulties, obstacles that we have is how to pay our bills. But then, once that has been somehow relatively managed then the second question comes. What is your next priority?

0:25:19.0

So, it is great. People in this room. Everybody has great interest in something to develop. Something getting inside deeper and becoming better and maybe, maybe not going to enlightenment but, somehow you're moving in certain directions. And, think that is great. However, this will be, when you have the 0:25:51.9 prop prioritized and this will come quite lower in the prioirty -- The first is this. The second is this. Third is this. And five is this. And sixth is this. And six is that and then seven and eight and then you begin to pick up that. And that is laziness. Even though people who pick up a little earlier priority, even then when you have deliver of should I do this or should I do that. And naturally always the practice meditation and all this will be sort of second everything which you can push all the way right at end of day. And so then the time will be like whatever, twelve or two or whatever it is. And then you have the new challenge of falling asleep and you have to compete with that. And so that's, that is the laziness. Laziness.

So the first and foremost important obstacle is laziness. Now solution for laziness. What do you do if that laziness comes. And Nagarjuni provided four. Four solutions over laziness. Intelligence faith, Effort, and not only effort but Willingness. And then Joy. Joy that you experience out of result of meditation. This joy is a fantastic joy but when we need it we don't have it. It's true. Absolutely true. This particular joy will come during the mental stage level or mind level. Our problem is the period one. before even one. before even the stage one, so actually what happened is the solution left of way down there and the problems are faced there. This is the dillema. The solution. The real solution is the joy. The body joy and mind joy, which is sometimes the joy but that will come at the level of ninth stage. Our problems are before we even get stage one. This is the mental stability of -- Tony has interesting name. What you call it? mental...?

Tony: Meditative quiessense.

Rinpoche: Meditative quiencess. (laughter) So anyway, they're mind stages. This is not, do not mix up with the ten buni's or ten stages. We're not talking about that. Ten buni's way beyond nine stages the meditative quiencess.

Audience: Quiessence.

u

Rinpoche: Qui-ences. Okay? So the problem one is the laziness. So when you don't have that actual joy, so what will you apply? You apply that intelligence faith. Not blind faith because the blind faith is a problem. Intelligent faith is a good. Blind faith is a problem, I tell you. If you have blind faith, somebody will tell you, This is great. Great great great you have to believe it. Believe it, believe it believe it. You go 0:30:20.1 have a truth. (unintelligible) you bullshit, you stupid, you can't believe that way, boo boo boo boo. And you go other way round, you know. Sort of, Bloom! this way, Bloom! that way. So that blind faith has no principle. It is like a flag, a flag on the pole. When the wind blows from this side all will go tatatatatah that side and when the wind blows from the other side it will go tatatatatah that side. Can't stand by its own. There's no principle. So that is the problem with the blind faith, which you don't want it.

So if you like something you at least need to know why I like it. You got to some reason why I like it. Right? If you like 0:31:1.9 Normo then you need to know why you like Normo. Because the place is good, it is good quality, it has no chemicals, you know, whatever it is. Whatever it is, some reasons why you like it. You don't want, "I like it because I feel it is good. So I think I'm going to like it and I like it," That will be like blind faith. Because so and so said it is good, so I'm going to like it. That's not right, That is blind faith. But if you eat yourself and you taste and mmm it's not bad! It's okay. It is good. I like 0:31:51.4 cactus. Alright, so okay that's got some reasons why you like it. That is something here. Also you, you say, I like to meditate. Why? People say that good. That is blind. Okay, I teach myself a little bit. I try and it keeps me a little harmony, a little peace, if I can do it, maybe. I can achieve something. So that is a little bit better than blind faith. Little better but not good enough. Good enough is experience. You cannot experience. But anyway that's that.

So anyway, if you're sort of look at it -- by doing this meditation I can reach to those levels that I can at least overcome my anger. I can at least overcome my attachment, jealous or something. I can overcome my ignorance or I can also see true reality. And this is the key that I will be able to encounter with the ultimate truth, which means by solving all the mysteries that you have in life, whatever we go through. So looking in that way at least with a good understanding will make it bring the Willingness.

Intelligent Faith, Willingness, then Effort. To be able to discipline. Effort is nothing more than discipline in your life and you can have quality. You can have freedom. But you do need some discipline. If you don't have discipline you can... If you don't have any discipline at all you sleep the whole day and get up at night. Wake up all night and it will be just entirely up there. Some people may have to do that but basically the people get up to work during the daytime and go to sleep at night. And if you don't have discipline you do the opposite. You sleep when everybody's up and when everybody's down you get up, do the opposite whenever you feel like doing, you know. That is no discipline. And when you don't have discipline you cannot do anything. 0:34:35.7 neither (unintelligible) spiritual path. But even our ordinary routine normal mundane work. Also needed discipline.

And so this is the spiritual path will definitely need a tremendous amount of discipline. Willingness, Discipline, Intelligent Faith, and Expeiencing of Joy. This experiencing of the joy is actually the direct antidote of laziness. Because that can really overcome laziness where we don't have it. But at least we get some kind of semi - joy, sometimes people can get that. And these sort of things can be cherished and applied on, that's how you overcome

the first problem of laziness.

Intelligence Faith is absolutely necessary. If you don't have it nothing grows, Nothing grows. 0:36:15.6 teh leh muh deh min treh che ze din gya...

So the intelligent faith is like the mother. Without mother you cannot hope to get children no matter how great father might be. But is incapable of producing child without having a mother. That's true, you know? So the Intelligent Faith is like mother who gives birth to all your spiritual development. 0:36:55.0 teh leh muh deh min -- And if you don;t have that, no nothing will grow -- Now, who's this one? oh that, you (unintelligible) I thought that you in Ithaca. Huh. (sounds of baby) 0:37:21.0 teh leh muh deh min...

0:37:27.0 If you don't have that and they said, If you are born defeat or if you have roasted barley and try to grow. Take the roasted barley and try to grow, nothing's going to grow. But it's just like that. If you don't have that Intelligent Faith then nothing will grow. So it is like mother. It is very important. That is needed. How to grow the Intelligent Faith. Only you can get by learning. By learning the practice, by learning the result, by learning the problems, and then you can get some kind of -- Even those -- Intelligent Faith is divided into the three categories. 0:38:21.3 pa ah teh bul nohn duh guh teh beh yi...

0:38:25.9 Okay anyway, I don't want -- This is not my subject today. So better not. So basically there are three different things. In that so that number one point to overcome the laziness. Willingness, Effort, and Joy. Intelligence Faith. That 0:38:51.0 (unintelligible) That is the problem number one. Four solutions.

Now what is problem number two? Problem number two is, alright you put the effort, you have the willingness, you put calm, you try to sit down, and then you forgot. What you thought to think. You forgot, That is the problem. Forgot the subject which you have to think; forgot object on which you concentrate; and you know you're sitting but that you're lost, you gone. Right? So that is the problem, So the solution is the remembrance. Remember the mental faculty we called remembrance? That's the solution. Alright.

Now, the problem number three. Alright, you put all this effort in. You have not forgotten. You have memory. But, you sank. The sinking problem came. You fall asleep 0:40:07.9 that grows. Or you didn't fall asleep but you try to hold on to your half going, half sinking, half working. Or your mind wanders. Completely wanders. So these are the two problems. So who will, what will you do? You have to that 0:40:29.3 annoying, you know, that 0:40:31.3 shushing, it's something, another mental faculty, sort of watching from distance.

Remember 0:40:38.9 mah iyn djen deh dan suh toh. So from a distance, some occasionally watching your own mind -- whether you're focusing or you're not focusing, what you're doing, occasionally. Because, if you don't have that, if you don't have that ,-- the remembrance is the remembrance. It will continue. When it lost, it's lost. You won't know. You won't know. But the watching mind, knowing mind, occasionally watching what you're doing. Are you on the focus? Are you not on the focus? Whatever it is, occasionally watching it, absolutely necessary because it won't be the solution for problem number three. Are you -- Did you hear me? Or you didn't hear me? Some people did. Some people didn't. In other words, you meditate. It's fine. You keep the remembrance. But if you lost the remembrance, and either you fall asleep, or either you wandered mind somewhere, come to New York, something, you know. Or gone to Tokyo, whatever it is. Something happened and then you don't realize that you're sitting there. Time is going. But your mind is going somewhere else. And all fall asleep. So then what do you do?

There is another mental faculty called knowledge, knowing. And that should watch occasionally. So making sure occasionally you have to watch whether you're focusing or you're not focusing. So in other words, if somebody looking behind your shoulder all the time. Sort of whether you are on there or not. That's bad 0:42:32.7 the sound of it. So that is the problem three and the solution.

0:42:45.5

Okay, now, the fourth problem will be, Over-Watching. The beginning you have to watch a lot because you lose all the time. But when you become a little stable, you have a little stlable, and if you keep on over-watching then the over-watching will disturb the stability. So that is the -- another problem, you know? One solution can become a problem for the next one. So -- Over-watching, -- Oh -- I'm sorry. I'm jumped. The fourth problem is, even you know it, even that mental faculty knowledge pick it up you’re not focusing, you're not concentrating, but still you don't connect. And that is biggest problem in our lives. Particularly in our group, it is the biggest problem, is we do have the knowledge. We do have the information. We do. However we don't apply. Lack of application of the solutions, you know what I mean? We do that. We know, we know that's not right. We know there's problem. And still you don't correct. That is the fourth problem. You recognize there is either wandering mind or sinking mind is there but you act like, sort of yeah, I'll do tomorrow. I do not correct. I do not apply on it and that will be the fourth problem, and the fifth problem is the last one which is Over-applying. Over-application of 0:45.12.8 work. So the over-application of watching is then you have to 0:45:20.0 the door. You have to know the watching has to 0:45:23.8 remove door. Are you with me?

So these are the basically five problems and eight solutions. First four solutions, 0:45:33.6 over powering, overcome the laziness, the last four solutions are the four different level of problems.

So, by recognizing these four problems and eight solutions 0:45:57.5 (sound cuts off)

0:46:07.3 second stage, the focus is extended a little bit. So that is the second stage.

Third stage will be -- the remembrance will be in action so if you're lost then immediately you'll be able to bring it back. You bring it back. The moment you lost the alert or the remembrance of the alerted. Immediately, sort of bring the remembrance back. You know, these are the trainings. When you train the mind, the mind is capable of doing that. And if you don’t have the discipline and don't train, the mind will not be able to do it. So when you train it will get it. That's how it is. You know, -- you get it. Anything that you get something to be scared is, 'Gghh!' You don't have to teach that. You get jump. The physical mental body jump. That’s the -- like that, you get it. So immediately, you lose the focus, the remembrance will pick up. And that's the -- these are the sort of other training you get. So that will be the third stage and so that -- what the fourth stage is --

The fourth stage will be again keeping on longer than that. You take over the wandering mind away from it. You don't want that, You stay even longer.

And the fifth stage we'll be able to alert where whatever problem is coming or not coming, even before you're getting it. And that will be the fifth stage, I just want to introduce the stages tonight and then talk next week on that stages a little more carefully. We just now like to give you those stages.

Then sixth stage. If you notice the wandering you mind be able to cut the wandering and be able to continue more.

And the seventh stage. And then you can sit quite long with a lot of effort. With a lot of effort and then you can lit wuite long without getting this problem of wandering or sinking.

And eighth stage. But still the effort that you're putting in you have lot of effort but effort will be discontinued -- even seventh stage -- but when you get eight stage, you put on effort but effort will continue. There will be no discontinuety of effort. The effort you can focus. You be able to focus long period -- with effort without any interruption. The effort itself will not interrupt. It will continue and concentration will continue.

And ninth stage is the stage where there no effort. And effortlessly you will function. You will be able to focus, meditate as long as you want to. Effortlessly. Without any effort at all. That will be the ninth stage.

So all these stages are made -- How long can you focus? And unfortunately we don't talk on the terms of second or minutes terms. But really terms of concentration period. I think if we can put all -- if you can translate on the second or minute it may be easier. But that's the how the nine differetn levels are divided.

Okay. The six powers are Power of Learning, Power of Thinking, Remembrance, Knowledge, Effert, and all well-tuned. Trained complete for you. You're probably used to it. The fourth one -- Sixth one -- is all sort of automatic, become automatic. So these are the what we call it six powers. So what I did tonight reall was introduce the six powers, nine stages,

Okay, so, nine stages, six powers, then like its four -- maybe that is a little difficult. So I think we will do that nest week. Anybody have any questions?

Audience: I think I missed what (unintelligible) to the fourth obstacle was the lack of application of the solution or the stage of (unintelligible) at that point? What's the solution?

Rinpoche: You don't correct. When you recognize the problem you don't correct. Correcting is the solution. Yeah, thank you. (laughs) Correcting is the solution. Because recognize but you dont correct. That is the one big problem with that. But the normal American language what you say, you don't get it. That's what it is. You knew it, you don't get it. Even you get it, you don't act. Because that's how -- that's what it is. You got it you don't act.

Steve.

Steve: You were talking about the (unintelligible) object of the end of laziness. And among them was the enthusiasm and I was thinking about the experience of dieting, people who go on diets. And they're terrible in my experience people try to lose weight and then they lose a lot of weight and then they go back and they gain it back and they lose. And the more they lose it and gain it back the more difficult it is to lose it again. Which, in concentrated meditation you can go through various levels and -- in a very concentrated intense period ot time which required -- in ordinary life you lose that concentration and then you go back and do another retreat, and gain that concentration and the lose that concentration when you come out. It's inevitable. And you talked for instance about which times that we live in and of course it's not possible, practical to (unintelligible)

Rinpoche: Why not?

Steve: Well that's -- I'd like to find out how.

Rinpoche: It is possible. You know, what happened is -- You don't have to have a very long period of, you know, Having nothing else to do. And sit the whole day. You don't need that. The period, whatever you apply, whether it's half na hour, twenty five minutes, twenty minutes, even ten minutes. For the beginning people, five minutes is more than enough. To get it. And one day it will extended bu itself. So something like forty five minutes. And these applications, whatever I'm talking about it. I'm talking about the period which you ear marked and we're talking about it as little short period of solid concentration -- solidness -- but short period. You don't have to have the morning till evening sitting there.

Steve: Nevertheless, but I never meant that -- really maintain solid concentration unless I've been sitting all day.

Rinpoche: Because you have not reached the level two or three. So level one or two or three, then you can, you have to have more time just to gain the feel of it. This is the learning talk. -- Did you raise your hand? -- Let me finish this.

Audience: (unintelligible)

Rinpoche: Alright. So you know, to make our mind feel something is one thing and what you can do is another thing. Sorry to say that. But it is a rather strange way, but that really two separate things. My suggestion would be -- people who are picking up for the first time -- you should really looking at like five or ten minute period. You may not have that feel of, feeling satisfied -- I have meditated. -- you may not get that. For five or ten minutes. But you are training your mind. If you do that, constantly, continuously, every day, for like ten minutes or twenty (unintelligible) it will reach a long time. Don't think you need a long period. I mean, if you get a long period, it's a luxurious, no doubt about it. But if you don't get it, then you know, begin like four or five minutes, extending to ten fifteen minutes, extending to fifteen twenty minutes, extending into twenty, twenty-five, half an hour, forty five minutes, hour top. 0:58:22.0 Will they? Then correct. I think can achieve everything you want to achieve. For that sort of period. You know, this, what they call it? 0:58:34.6 al ka pa ka, all this business, they talk the levels that bring it there on. What is it? You know that?

Audience: (unintelligible)

Rinpoche: Huh? They have :58:47.0 al ka level pa ka level, whatever it is, you know.

Audience: Oh, Alpha Beta

Rinpoche: Yeah all this about the levels they talk, all this. About concentrated levels they talk. What is it? Alpha?

Audience: Alpha Beta, it's Greek letters.

Rinpoche: Okay, well what -- sort of what they talk is probably the level of the concentration what they're talking about it. And one of the, old friend of mine, a women named 0:59:30.4 ba gi mi a sim ba ne en. And she had studied this style of meditation with me in 1977 in Texas. And she worked with a guy named, Brother John or Brother David or somebody. And they worked together and they invented -- They worked together and did focusing and how to bring the level of the mind to alert level. And then they worked with electronics with that and sort of do have a different levels of music. And then they have a lot of pictures that they throw at you. And that's what they taught, to that sort of level, and they’re selling that to big companies, corporations. And once, I'm in New York in open center book store and suddenly there's a woman with mink coat walk by and said -- she was sort of chasing, started looking from outside the door, then came in the store, started looking at me and then says "Gelek Rinpoche." I said, "Yeah." "I don't know if you remember me or not, I'm 1:01:09.6 ba gi mi a sim ba ne en." And she said. "I'm so glad to see you because I liked contact completely we been through this and now kin of what is next?" (laughter) So then, again I lost contact with her. She was around for a while. And then again I lost. But then again she's so busy selling this thing to the big corporations, idea, you know. And saying how the executives have to bring their mind level. And she told me this Acapulco Level (Hah!) and anyway, they made it They made it somehow the level of the concentration and alertness by doing this and they give like, you know, what is and hour long training? For the executives and doing so in two months or three months they can make it equal to some Indian Yogi who sits entirely of cave, or something, Anyway, so whether that is right or wrong but anyway short period of training in focusing mind every day. Even, you know, having an hour is luxurious for concentrated meditation, I'm telling you. It is very luxurious. But very short periods will be able to deliver the goods.

1:02:40.3

Feeling of the satisfaction, you don't get it. Particularly if you're used to it for undisturbed perio for long time. The only the sound what hear will be -- What is that? The wise dog or whatever that is. 1:03:04.7 Kahkof. Huh? Kerkhof. You see that in Doctor Zhivago movie right? A (unintelligible). That is only what you hear. So in that sort of -- If you're spoiled by that period and if you try to apply to the modern life and then it is difficult to adjust. But once you get used to it, you know -- That is another problem, you know, the wild yogi's cannot adapt the normal life, which is obvious. It's really obvious. It is not a unique problem. It is obvious problem.

You want to say something or what?

Audience: I had a question.

Rinpoche: Question. I don't have answer. Okay, anyway, go ahead.

Audience: I think it's related perhaps to what you were asking (unintelligible) questions arising whether (unintelligible) whether there's a level that one would (unintelligible) like (unintelligible) no more fall back, if there's anything of that (unintelligible) within the levels of concentration.

Rinpoche: Not in this ninth level. Not within this nine level, no. Beyond nine level, yes. Not fall back is (unintelligible) 1:04:47.1 tjed dje de me djen dwa san deh wu shem mah...

1:4:55.3 After these nine levels, actually you'll be reading the preliminary level of the first stage of 1:05:02.7 samadhi, samadha. First stage of samadha -- there's four, four stages of samadha, each one of them we have 1:05:10.6 (unintelligible) and conclusion level. And then after that fall from less. After that pick up the world or pick up the samsara. So that is how the seventeenth stage of the meditative level has been built up on that level. But, the fall back will be -- no fall back will be find after the preliminary -- during the preliminary level of first samadhi stage. So the Buddha -- The difference between Buddhism and Hindusim. Buddha recommends -- Do not continue to this fall from level and from this level and don't go that way. Shift to wisdom. Don't go on the thing -- that's the fall back and not fall back.

Audience: So the shift to wisdom no more fall back. That enough. Bu it's (unintelligible)

Rinpoche: Shift to the wisdom makes is not fall back. Because otherwise, it will continue. You can go on sit and sit and sit. And you can temporarily block all the delusions, and after years of, centuries of sitting, and then something happens. Some sort of 1:06:34.8 red some red red comes and 1:06:38.8 splits you hair or something -- you get angry. And then the people fall back. So. 1:06:46.3 se dje dah to seh me je du eh...

1:06:53.1 That was the 1:06:53.6 red difference between Buddha's way and Hindu way. I guess, So this is the talking with the level of the wisdom level.

Audience: One quick thing. I came across something (unintelligible) the other day and he said at the beginning it's sometimes very helpful that you for five minutes take a five minute break? (unintelligible)

Rinpoche: We've been saying that already. We've been saying that already. Not only five minutes but even like two min -- It depends. It really depends. When you lose, you don't force but you're bringing it back. You don't get up. And can you relax for a minute and then try to go back. And if you still cannot, like keep on falling asleep, one after another, no matter how much you try your best, but still you keep on falling. If you don't physically fall down, that's fine, and if that happens you have to get up. And put water to your face, and walk around five minutes and get some fresh air. Did you hear me? Did you hear me? Good. (laughter) I'm joking (unintelligible) Don't take it seriously. (laughs)

So that's that. Thank you so much.

(prayers in Tibetan begin)