Archive Result

PAGE

Soundfile 1995/May/13

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location : Netherlands

Topic : Self Liberation

Transcriber Janet Diamond

Date

Comments in Dutch, greetings and questions about the topic title “Liberation”

0:02:02.9

The week before last when I came to Holland, I saw at the airport a huge sign which said “ Welcome to the 50th Anniversary of Liberation”. So I began to realize you’re separating from the liberation? (Hard to hear this 0:02:39.0). And it sad indeed when you talk about the war and when you talk about the past war and even (name of person) 0:03:08.7 was driving me last night and although it was at the night and you don’t see that much but he’s telling me he does a war cemetery and this and that and so my thought was popping up at that time seeing war cemetery which means hundreds of people, maybe thousands of people getting killed from no fault of theirs.

0:03:58.4

So it makes me think, in one way we call it human race, beautiful kind nature and wonderful beings in one way. In another way, if you look in human history, there’s always a fight, and a fight all the time on the basis of religion, which is supposed to be a key for liberation for oneself. But on the question of religion, people get killed for nothing, but on the other hand, those who die voluntarily, and say I’m doing great things. So it is sad indeed. This is what human history will tell you. But on the other hand, it’s not even history. The same thing’s going on today everywhere. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, something like 137 wars were going on throughout the world. A statement issued by the Carter International Center. Is it called Carter International Center? Anyway, President Carter has some kind of an organization which tries to bring peace and they issue a statement. I think 137 wars going on. Dutch translator asks, “Since the collapse of the Soviet Union”?

0:07:11.9

I’m not sure of the name. I think it’s called Carter International Institute or Carter Peace Making Institute or is it called Carter Library or something? Whatever the name is but there’s an organization in Georgia run by Jimmy Carter and try to make peace everywhere and they put up(lost word (0:07:55.4) wars. So it’s not even history. It’s going on today.

Omens again, a lot of innocent people, children all get killed for nothing. And this is human nature and not the beautiful nature of the human but the other side, the monster nature of the human. And but if you look, if you talk to each and every individual, people who are behind the war, and they have their own very convincing reasons. So, the problem really lies on the lack of compassion, because of lack of compassion the priority that the people choose is making more self interest and more sort of right and wrong issues.

0:10:14.1 And righteousness. Too much righteousness is the actual cause of religion’s wars. If you look at religious wars, the reason why they fought is because what I’ve been taught and what my system is. This is the best, and yours is the worst, and you should be eliminated. That’s what they’re fighting for. Right ? If you look bottom down. Down to the bottom. That’s what you’re getting. Even in the medieval Europe here, and all this torture and suffering that let’s call it witches or the wise women. (laughs) You know the meaning of the witch as wise woman? If you look at it without thinking about witches sounds terrible. Right? You get the picture. Witches, terrible. blah blah blah you get some kind of a funny little picture of a crazy old thin lady riding on a broom and flying in the air or something . You know?

0:12:42.7 And however, if you look very carefully, it’s a wise woman. And alterative to that church was propagated. That’s what I heard. What do I know? But alternative to the church has been propagated, and become a threat. So that’s why, better eliminate it. And that’s why millions of women have been burned here. As simply another way of healing which is either officially not accepted by authorities at that time, whether it is church or state or simply the thing is wrong. And that is simple reason but you know more people took advantage of killing your enemies and this and that. And it’s a different issue but when you have the idea of too much righteousness that’s what brings it.

0:14:15.8 Fortunately, or unfortunately, it did not become a war. But otherwise , it’s the same thing. Hindus think the Muslims (are) bad. And Muslims think the Hindus (are) bad. It’s funny. If you live in India, you know this.

0:15:00.9

And one says you can eat the pork. It’s good. The other says the pork is terrible. You can’t eat. And the other one says you can eat beef. The other one says the cow is so sacred, you can’t eat. That’s what they fight for, anyway.

(laughs)

0:15:34.9. So, all of those stop now, still bleeding? If you want you can lie down. (directed to a Sangha member)

0:16:03.0 Anyway, so all of those problems, what’s the cause, self rightgeous (ness) (think that’s the word he said)

0:16:11.8

Not only it has caused the problem in the society, but it also causes problem in the individuals. Individually, I want to be the important. I want to be right. I have to be the most outstanding and I, and I, I. That is our problem. And it’s true if you don’t have so much feeling about “I” this and “I” that, and then you’re going to have a feeling of “my this” and “my that”. All our hate and love is coming out of this, I and my and my friend. I and my and my enemy. So, what’s happening? What’s happening is let’s talk about one individual person as me, like one individual person. When I say one individual person, when I say “me”, you should think about yourself, and not looking at the outside and saying oh, me, he, rather than that, meaning me. If you look at it that way it should work.

0:18:34.6 Now, for me, what is it? What is that makes a difference to me? Is because of my feeling and my perception. You’re with me, right? because of my feeling and perception.

That makes a whole difference to me. And, where the perception is, where the feeling is, what is making the difference is my acknowledgment. That is the what I perceive, what I feel it. That is my perception and acknowledgment. Are you people with me or? Dutch translator: Not completely

0:20:17.0 Some are, some are not. What I’m trying to say is the most important thing is my mind, because the mind is the first thing, first and foremost basis to perceiving, to acknowledge, to experience, to feel it. So, we say, I feel good, I feel bad, I feel pain, I this, I that. It all boils down to where you measure, what do you feel what basis is me, which is , sort of, let’s call it my mind.

0:21:04.5 Is it ok? If I lose you, then I’ve lost everything. (laughs) So the first and foremost comes, my mind. That’s where me measure, make measurements, good, bad, feel wonderful, feel terrible. Feel miserable. The measurement comes and the acknowledger, or perceiver, or feeler, or experiencer is the me inside which is really the first and foremost, just mine. And I’m not trying to talk to you here about Buddhist philosophy of emptiness at all. I’m simply saying, when you personally experience, when you’re functioning, that’s how it is. Otherwise, people may get confused. You know and try to establish emptiness or something . No. The second thing is what you see outside. And what you hear outside, what you feel outside, how to you connect and what do you perceive. And these are the second things after the mind. So, when you feel something,

you see something nice, you like it and you enjoy it. Your mind will perceive this as nice thing and then you say, “How nice it is”.

0:24:01.9 And then, another terrible thing, when you see it, you perceive it, you dislike it and you say, “how horrible it is.” But then you have to remember, something horrible to a person, person “A” might not be horrible to a person “B”. And as a matter of fact, it may become a wonderful thing for person “C”. So that’s why there is no certainty (about) what you perceive and what you observe . It becomes more important what you feel, and how you take it. On that ground, some teachers earlier even stated that everything is mind. Mind is most important. The outside is not that important , not even important. It’s all mind which makes things. People say that. Whether the mind makes the external things or not, but how the mind perceives the external things makes a hell of a difference to the feeling of the individual. So that’s why feeling of a joy and feeling of sorrow is very much on the individual, how you perceive.

0:27:01.0 But I did not say, mind made it. Ok. Don’t misunderstand. It is true. To some people, you know. Something wonderful or beautiful, beauty you figure is or something. To some people say, it’s wonderful and beautiful but another person says, ‘Well, I didn’t really like it very much because blah, blah, blah. This reason, that reason. That’s how individuals perceiving. So, a lot of our problems or the pains that we experience, particularly emotional pains and emotional sufferings that we go through is very much on the perception of the individual mind. Then there’s another problem the physical pain, physical suffering and all this, which everybody will perceive as pain, more or less. Not everything again. Even in physical things. You know even though it’s a physical pain, even in physical things, some people will perceive it as pain, and that very pain will be perceived by some people as pleasure. That’s right. It’s very common in the west. Right, everyone agrees with that right? Don’t let me give you vivid examples. laughter

0:30:07.4

Yeah, true. So even physical pains, some people will perceive as pains, some people will perceive as pleasure. So again, the measurement of joy and suffering, and where you’re putting it, you have to be the perceiver’s acknowledgment, is the point where you do. So, that’s why everything is depend inside. Not so much outside. But then outside is also related. It’s not that there’s no relationship. It’s very much related. That’s why it says,

0:31:56.3 (Tibetan quote) I forgot the second word. Anyway, it is the mind which really makes a hell of a difference and a lot of our sufferings and problems are the not a really actual true pain, but it is a lot of them acknowledgment. So to relieve this pain, a lot of people, the psychologists and psychotherapists and all these people do a lot of work, try to relieve this very pain. And it’s a wonderful thing. And I really respect and have great regard for it. And, however, it is not problem free again. Since I’m going to say both respect and criticism together. There’s 2 possibilities always. The other possibility is again you try to relieve pain and you create another pain. And many of the societies in the west, many societies in many places, many families, the children having a problem with parents, and young kids in their 20’s started suing their parents, legally, their father particularly. It’s also when you try to work with the mind, that’s what you create sometimes. I’m not criticizing all psychologists in general but some of them try to dig in and people have a fear, people have some discomfort. Something functioning, so you try to dig, dig, dig and go to 8 years of itch, or 7 years of itch, and then what are you afraid of and then the child will say, “I don’t know why but I’m afraid of a bearded man. (laughter)

0:36:11.3 (Dutch)0:36:37.5 It is true. Then the next question is, does your father have a beard? (laughter) Or your uncle has a beard, or someone you know. And then, “oh, yeah”. So, here’s the break through . That’s your father who molested you when you were 8 years old. And it is the source of your problem. (laughs) So you keep on thinking for a while about 1 year or 2. So keep on thinking about poor little girl poor little woman now, keep on thinking what had happened to me at 8 years old and blah blah blah blah blah. And after a little while, I cannot take it any more. You must stop this, so they go to the law. With the father. That’s created another problem. And so, this is the game of mind. And not only 1 person’s mind, 2 person’s mind, 4 person’s minds, and more. And then it’s creating a problem. So which our society faces today. Whether it is impermanent, whether it is with friends, or it it is between nations. So all of that, the wars we’ve been talking, the family problems we’ve been talking, the big nations going to war, the small, the family fighting, the bearded ones, all of them, are actually mind, which is making that

0:39:11.3 So if you ask me, is that true is it only the mind and nothing wrong in that? And that’s also not true. There’s something wrong too. So all of them are caused by this mind, mind of mine, and mind of yours, which does not somehow tell it together. That’s what it is. If you really look, and this is caused problem in family, caused problem in school, caused problem in churches, caused problems everywhere. So the Buddha called that untamed mind. So there is wonderfulness in the mind, and there is also wildness in the mind, both. You know what the Tibetan earlier teachers give an example for this? Leaving the monkey in the temple. Leaving loose the monkey in the temple. So if you let the monkey loose here, what will they do? Knock all this water out, fires threw, ring those bells, and throw images out and jump around do all sorts of things and so that’s what it means, wild monkey, letting it loose in the temple.

0:41:58.8. So, when you have that, what are you going to do? So there’s no time for us to put images up and put the water straight. First we have to catch the monkey. (laughs) If you don’t, no matter how much you put up the monkey will come and knock it down. There will be never ending. So, first and foremost, now catch the monkey. So, where is the monkey? Not out there, inside. So you have to catch it. Even inside, it jumps all over the place. You think it’s in there. It’s somewhere outside. Whether it’s in the market or, in the bar, or somewhere. You know you may think it’s in there, because your body is here, but the monkey is inside the body tapped in but you realize the monkey is in the bar or somewhere else or the monkey is across the altar, all over the place. Did you get that? No problem, right? Ok. Because sometimes this sort of metaphor doesn’t get the message. They really think literally a monkey gets over there. How did a monkey get over there, you know. (laughs) There’s one difference between the body and the mind and the body makes you, you have to carry it around and if you want to go to the bar, you have to go. You have to carry the body up to the bar. And if you have to cross the ocean, you have to carry the body across the ocean. But mind doesn’t need that. The mind, “boom” it jumps here, “boom” jumps there “boom” jumps here. That is the mind and body difference. And that’s what I mean the monkey gets everywhere. So it is more difficult to catch the physical monkey than that of the mental monkey, I mean it’s more difficult to catch the mental monkey than the physical monkey, sorry.

0:45:11.2

So, the most important point, whether you call it spiritual path whether you call it Buddhist practice, whether you call it good Christian, or whether you call it devoted Hindu, or whether you call it what do the Muslims call it? Dutch speaker, “Good Muslim?” Is that right? I don’t think so, something called, some particular identification or Allah’s servant or something. Isn’t that , I think they call it Allah’s servant or something like that? Maybe I’m wrong, but so, whatever it might be, the taming of the mind is the key for everybody, everybody,whether you have a Judeo-Christian orientation or the Hindu— Muslim- Buddhist whatever may be. Or pagan-ness too.

Because it is simply good and bad definition really boils down to whether you make people, other people miserable, including yourself and miserable or comfortable. You know about 50%, if not 80%, 50% of the peoples’ suffering caused by people. Either yourself, or another person. And there are people who would like to be mischievous. (discussion of the meaning of that word in Dutch)Is that a problem? Who like to do funny things.

0:48:19.7 How come mischievous becomes a problem for you? (laughs) In the sense, I try to explain it. In the sense people would like to create a little problem for another one. They enjoy doing it. May not be so big problem, but will create a little trouble. I believe that’s called mischievous. And another type of people. If you deal with people, you know it. It’s basically nice people who are always kind and wonderful, but then, somehow somewhere, they had to do something wrong. And have to tell a little bit of a lie, maybe white but a little bit of lie and try to create a little superior picture for yourself and try to create a little bit of bad picture for the other not so much by wish as mean, not vicious, but just do it. Right, you see people, that type? And they also know they’re doing it and they don’t want to do it. They can’t help it. It goes little ways through, but by the time you realize it, it’s a little bit gone. So this are the basically, I mean, how the mind creates problems.

0:51:07.0 So, all this solution is the taming of the mind, the training of the mind. So, as I said, the monkey is going everywhere. So first and foremost, important solution. It’s sort of solution number one. sort of solution number one, to training this wild monkey. Is try to” tie” (unsure of word) 0:51:46.0 it down. So, tying down here. That’s why Buddha presented the mindful meditations.

So the mindfulness meditation is actually, first try to catch the monkey, and hold it. And that’s why, the object of meditation, whatever it might be. It doesn’t matter. And the earlier Tibetan masters used to say, “from the cow dung to the yak horns. Yeah. So whatever it may be it’s try to be focusing down And when it’s focused, when it’s been able to focus a little bit, and that means the monkey begins to relax its muscles a little bit, so even if you get one tenth of a second to be able to put it down,

0:54:11.5 it is a good achievement. It is for the first time, you’re giving yourself, you’re giving your mind a rest. You know your body can not go without getting rest, so we sleep. The mind goes. Even when you sleep, the mind starts dreaming around and getting all sorts of things. You can hold this dream business. It comes up when the body sleeps. So the whole complete life, other side is the dream life. Everything. The total melodrama of our lives this side is shown in the dream side. It’s really 50% of the other half of life. So mind is busy with that. So when you’re able to settle down a little bit. This is for the first time, they’ll be able to say “Ahh” (sighs)

0:55:50.7 So this, I believe, the first solution the solution number one. Let’s keep the numbers down today. This will be solution number one of the number one of the liberation from yourself., by yourself, for yourself. That’s what it is, really true. And that is mind mindfulness. Then there is mindfulness of feeling, and mindfulness of the perceptions, and mindfulness of acknowledgment. So Buddha really gives us 4 different mindfulnesses. So this mindfulness

is the beginning of things that we can do for ourselves. Now, the second point, a question arises here. It may or may not rise, this question, but the question of why? Why do we need it? Why do we need it? Because we’re not happy. We have been experiencing so many pains so that every time when you separate from your friends, and when you meet them together, and every time we have a lot of things to talk about, and things that you talk is the experience of yourself. These experiences, are mostly, you talk about the suffering . Very few people will say I had a wonderful time but then, within the wonderfulness, you have this problem, that problem that problem. Basically you had a wonderful time, but within that, you had this problem, that problem. That is why.

1:00:03.0 Then, number 2. It is obvious. We have something called illnesses and then of course, there’s something called death. And aging too. And all of them is our problem. And we’re not free of that at all. Then on top of that, whether you believe it or not, there’s something called reincarnation. So all of them are problems. So Buddha categorized them together, sort of tried to catalogue them and we catalogued them, it’s number one, comes the truth of suffering. It’s called truth of suffering .It is true we experience. It is real. That’s what we go through. We pain it. We cry, we laugh, we joke, we enjoy it, we cry. It is real. So it’s called truth. And later on they add on the word “ Noble”, Noble truths noble or not noble, it’s truth, the truth of suffering is the first truth. So then, another question arises. Where are they all coming from? Is that a creation of another person? Or is it coming from nowhere? Or is it coming from one single cause?

1:03:02.4 So interesting thing, so Buddha’s finding for this what Buddha found, you know? Buddha did a lot of meditation for us. He did a lot of analyzing for us. So what he found out, it’s not from nowhere, it’s coming. Neither is it caused by one single cause nor is it created by some third person unknown. So he found out what it is, and he found out it is ourselves is the cause of these problems, and within the problem, joy, too. And a lot of people think in our lives, there’s no joy. It is totally suffering and all this. That is absolutely bullshit. There’s a lot of joy in life too. And that also, joy. Don’t deny. Whether it’s absolute joy or not. That’s a different issue. We enjoy our lives. That’s the absolute reality. So all of them, it’s not somebody else made it and give it to you, but it’s our own deeds. And that’s why we are responsible for ourselves. The principal of the responsibility, accepting responsibility is actually a part of the second noble truth. What causes suffering? What causes joy? Who made it and who are responsible?

1:06:05.5 Which means, you are responsible to yourself. So accepting responsibility is the actual essence of the second noble truth. And part of accepting this responsibility will also give you a responsibility of a looking way out. You don’t get out. How do you get it?

1:06:58.3 How do I get out of this mess? Is there a way out? How do i get it? All right. (Dutch translator)- Perhaps you can say it again, what you need to say.

1:07:14.2 OK. All right. I mean this trouble, how do I get out of it? How do I get out? Is there a way out, or no way out? And how do I get out of it, how do I be free from here? is there anyway I can do, or I can not do? If I’m responsible, I should be able to do something which will change this. How do I do it? That means the way out so looking out for the solution and finding the solution, and putting it in your life is actually what we call the fourth noble truth but the first thing that you do .

So, by doing this, and automatically, you develop the cessation of free of pain so this will be a basic theme of these 2 days we’re going to work so to introduce the theme, we took a lot of time already, you know so anyway, what I would like to share is that the really true teaching of the Buddha or the true experience of the Buddha, which we label as the 4 Noble Truths, instead of leaving it in some kind of boxes called truth of suffering, truth of cause of suffering, truth of path and truth of cessation of the path sort of packaging them, and putting them in this box and then say, Ah hah. Here is the truth of suffering. Let’s look in there.

When you look in it, oh, there’s 3 kinds in there, or 8 kinds in there, or 16 kinds in there or instead of doing it that way, where, how I would like to deal with it, keep it as the principle in mind. That is the basic framework we’re dealing with and so each and everyone of them is applicable to our daily life, rather than in the future what we can do, instead of looking in that way. Look as daily, and in our today’s life, what is going on. and how it relates to that. Sort of basic Buddha’s experience of the 4 noble truths. We try to bring it in our today’s life and deal with.

1:11:07.0 So, today what we’re experiencing is the problems we described earlier so it is time for us to share the difficulties people face. You know, each and everybody have problems. Among ourselves, if I say, would you please raise your hand, if you’re free of problems and I tell you, nobody’s going to raise their hand. If you do so, we’ll all think, oh, that person’s stable. (laughs) Just one hand . We have to clap. All honest. ? (word) Onot?

1:13:35.4 Not on it. OK. What’s your problem or not? I’m just kidding, Mary(?)1:13:44.7 (laughs). Dutch question inaudible

1:14:02.3 GR: I need a full translation. I didn’t get it. Dutch translator: Well, as I understand it, the question is this. If I have a countless number of lives, and in every life I’m a part of a religion, I come into contact with Buddhism, or another religion, then, isn’t it inevitable that in the end, I will reach enlightenment and that all the problems I experience now will become non-problems in the end, inevitably?

Is it inevitable and have a good night’s sleep. Go ahead. Good night.

1:15:30.3

Yay. It’s a good thought. It is true and every time you encounter with a different solution, and every time we don’t get success. The chances of meeting with the solutions, are might not be that bad. I mean, traditionally religious texts will tell you it is only the one chance you ever have and blah blah blah, However, if you really think very carefully, the chance of meeting the solutions are very good, all the time. You do have it, truly speaking. You do. And this is true. I’m going against the traditional teaching on this one.

You know, there’s a very logical reason. I’m not simply saying it. There’s a very logical reason. The logical reason is that there are millions of enlightened beings who have nothing else to do except try to help, (laughs) and if you don’t encounter with them, how are they going to work? So, logically, it doesn’t make sense. But so, therefore, I think the chances of encountering with a solution life after life is very much.

1:18:02.7 No matter, wherever you’re born. There are time different realms or the 6 different realms or whatever, how you count it, but wherever you’re born the chances of meeting with the solution is very good. However, the chances of making it, is harder. Why? Because to make it, we’ve got to work. Without working, you can’t make it. Otherwise, we go to sleep, and have a good night’s sleep, and the enlightened work behind you, and you’ll be liberated when you wake up.

And that’s why I said goodnight to you earlier. Remember, when you raised a question, I said goodnight. That’s what I meant, behind that. And that’s where the people look. You know all this experimenting with drugs. Yeah. In the 60’s a person like Ram Dass or Allen Ginsberg and all these people. You know why they experimented with drugs? Because they thought, “Wow. This is great. Over there I can be liberated by that”. That was the whole reason whether you accept, or not accept. All the people who took the drugs were looking for joy and a wonderful kick in the air somewhere and that’s what it is. I’m sure you people have more experience than I do. The young ones, maybe not. The reason it didn’t work is because you didn’t put efforts.

So Ram Dass needed to go to India and to get this guru, what is it, Namo Bhava (unsure of word) 1:21:07.2 something in English and Allen Ginsberg has to go around and get Buddhist practice, and write his poetry and all this, because the drug culture didn’t work. Actually, drugs should do something other than that. You can not completely dismiss and say, “It’s bad. It’s drugs.” You can’t do that. This is the Netherlands. You can talk about it. There’s no Newt Gingrich here. (laughs). So you can talk about it. So, you can really talk about it. It’s done some good to a lot of people. I mean if there were no drugs, Ram Dass would not be the Ram Dass of today. Nor, as Allen. This is 2 examples I just popped up, but there are hundreds of those. So it’s done something good, too. But it doesn’t work properly, completely by that either. Because we create a lot of junkies here. That’s what it is. Because they think that’s the only solution. You don’t have to do anything. They remain high all the time. You become a junkie. The simple reason why it didn’t work is because you put no efforts in. Period. That’s a full stop. Period. Nothing more to talk about it.

1:24:01.0 (laughter) Dutch translator: “I was just explaining to people that I’m not completely fresh today. I pointed out and that’s it “. Rimpoche: “I don’t blame you”. Dutch translator:” Thank you”. So, the reason why we need to work, why sleeping or remaining high didn’t work because of the cause of the pain. What created this pain? So, this morning, while I was eating my breakfast, I thought what am I going to do today? And then, a verse came up in my head. It is Maitreya’s Buddha Tantra. It says “Tibetan words”

1:25:56.5 . So that verse came up on my head. If you don’t understand, don’t worry. This is Tibetan. The verse says, (Tibetan word) 1:26:22.0. If you’re sick you have to recognize illness, you’re sick. So I thought it is great today. I’m a diabetic. That’s what I thought. I’m saving my thought. And if I don’t know I’m a diabetic, right? If I don’t have the acknowledgment of diabetic . Let’s say if I’m like 20 years, or 40 years, or 50 years before, I don’t know anything about diabetic. 1:27:16.0 So I can not acknowledge that I’m a diabetic. So by not acknowledging I’m a diabetic, I can not take care of myself , at least not eat sugar, right? So the most important things becomes,

(Tibetan word) 1:27:47.4, as the Buddha Tantra said, the illness has to be recognized. So which means, the purpose of the first noble truth, talking about suffering, is Buddha keep on talking all the time about suffering, is not to make people frightened, not to threaten, nor to make life miserable, but it is a simple acknowledgment. The acknowledgment here means overcoming the denial. Right? So if you do so, you can take care of. If you don’t, you can’t take care of it. Let’s say, if I keep on saying, how can I be diabetic. I’m not a diabetic. You’re a crazy doctor. You’re crazy. You’re crazy I’m not diabetic . If I keep on denying myself, keep on eating sugar all the time, I will die. I could do that, too, right? But the consequences would be on me. So that’s the reason why acknowledgment. The purpose of introducing the first noble truth is to acknowledge. Nothing more than acknowledge. (Tibetan word) 1:30:26.0 to recognize, to acknowledge. So if that is acknowledged, the second (Sound cut out)1:30:44.0

PAGE 5