Archive Result

Soundfile 1995/05/13/GRJHNL

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Netherlands

Topic Self Liberation

Transcriber Janet Diamond

Date

Because the fear of the people, the dying people have fear too. Fear is not so much of dying fear but fear of unknown. You have no idea what’s going to go, you know but you just to have be hopeful for the best and sit around there and do the best you can, so give the support because you are near the dying person, so you don’t want to freak out yourself. So you let provide the spacious. And be there and these are a few of the things I could remember. You can support on an ordinary level. Most important, try to bring the focus of the individual in the positive manner. And it’s not necessary to introduce Buddhism to them . It’s true because a lot of people I came across who would like to take a Buddha picture there and try to show the dying person Buddha picture, and show that Buddha’s great and (word- serious?)

0:02:02.5 and blah blah blah and I’m not even sure that’s going to be helpful because the person who has no idea about Buddha, all of a sudden at the time of dying, there’s someone who’s trying to impose that Buddha on you, which probably create more trouble than help, though Buddha giving each and every enlightened being giving a quality just by seeing itself liberated blah blah blah but still, I don’t think it’s the right thing to do but if the person has knowledge about the Buddha, if they like the Buddha, and all this sort of thing, of course, why not? And as a matter of fact, it might

(inaudible 0:03:33.8) And then there’s some people who are angry with Buddha or for that matter, with any other god. There are people or in religion in general.There are a lot of them in the West. And for them, to be reminded of religion is another crime you’re committing because that will make the person angry and at the last minute of dying you don’t want

(inaudible 0:04:27.9 ) On the contrary, it’s going to be very bad for the person dying so it’s a mean act so one shouldn’t do that. So that means what we’re trying to tell you here is try to create a positive atmosphere and commonly acceptable love compassion or if you know the person, then great. If you don’t know the person, try to create love and compassion and no fear. At least the space where you give understanding, be there. And that’s what you try to do with the other person when they’re dying And that’s what you do for the other person.

When you die you try to do that to yourself too. If you have a Buddhist background, there’s a million different things to do there . There’s no shortage of this. Tremendous amount of things. Briefly speaking there’s a sutra, one sutra which gives you to be able to hold 11 point. Then there’s 8 point, then 6 point, then 5 powers, then of course, there’s transformation and there’s a thing called Phowa which is ejection of consciousness. And then very great people, virtually you cheat the death and you provide you combine them to an extraordinary stage all of them there. So out of which, I would like to hear out of you the easiest reasonable way will be the 5 powers. Ok. so I think we’ll have to break here for 15-20 minute break .

So, what we were talking earlier is the Phowa , the transferring the consciousness which is very important and it really works and I must tell you slightly here, otherwise it’s not right. Those of you who are saying the Sadhanas every day of any Yidam,. Very important practice is in that Sadhana, is as you do the Lam practice during the life, the Sadhana practice is dealing with death bardo and rebirth and those of you who do the Sadhana practice you do that have in total dying stage. And visualizing every day and visualizing here means actually means training yourself to be handle it. The stages what you experience, and how you feel about it

0:11:43.6 So, like the Lam Rim different stages and I don’t think I’m going to go and talk to you about what the 8 different stages are. I’ve talked a number of times .

(Sound very poor 0:12:10.7) How does that happen, last week we did (Tara business? )

sound poor 0:12:29.3) and we did the healing on the basis of her elements, and it is also, I didn’t talk very much about the dying stages during the Tara initiation. The reason why we don’t do it is because when we try to heal and longevity, you don’t want to talk about dying. That’s what it is. So otherwise, here and how you heal and otherwise ,that’s probably how you( go for it?)

(unknown word 0:13:14.9) Actually dying is nothing than that of separation of consciousness and it’s base. And I call our body normally a rented apartment and that apartment, when there’s heat and water running, eveything’s functioning, the apartment’s ok and you can live there. When the apartment’s no longer working, when the heat broke, the water broke, the roof is leaking, the whole thing is gone, then what do we do? What you can fix, to the extent, you correct. When you cannot fix, what do you do? You go. Same thing, the consciousness is demanding the apartment

(unknown words 0:14:51.9, or

(another inadible word) 0:14:54.4 body.

(another inaudible word 0:14:55.1

As long as we’re able to serve, to be the base of consciousness remaining, and to be identified individual as who am I, with the label that we have, I am John Wayne, or whatever it is the label that we carry as long as we’ve been able to work with it, we begin to get it,?

(inaudible 0:15:23.5) When John Moran or John Wayne, whoever it is inside, and when those organs are totally used, you can not live there. So you’ve got to go. So you can’t pin your body with this

(inaudible word 0:16:03.6) And that’s call separation of the body and life. And technically what I’m saying is gone. Forget about it, in reality. The person who’s inside and the body connection is lost and been disconnected so that it is what we call death, right. So no longer, your identity will no longer work. The person will always identify with so and so by looking at the face or the body or the sound, is no longer functioning. When I say no longer functioning, I don’t mean the body’s not functioning . The identification is not working so when it’s not working, it’s disconnected so you can not identify by that anymore. And so in this society, you are dead. And for yourself, what’s happening is your consciousness all this gross consciousness of perceiving, hearing, seeing, feeling, touch, all of those gross consciousness are no longer functioning. For example, you know like we wear glasses, and the glasses are nothing but than that of a signal of the decaying of the earth element. The earth element becomes weak so you don’t see as you should be seeing .

0:19:00.0 So the modern scientist comes out with a solution, called glasses . For a spiritual person, this is a signal of earth element quitting. And the feeling

(unknown word 0:19:25.0) And another

(unknown word 0:19:30.5) element are not working , the air element not working. So finally, it becomes worse, these are the beginnings but finally it gets worse and then it gets off. Of course, we have to drive an old car as long as it moves , as long as it can function by changing a little bit here and doing this and that, will go on. After a little while, we cannot go on so that is how the earth element goes off. So does the water. The fluid in the body doesn’t function properly and there’s a problem. So the element doesn’t move within your body . When you don’t circulate,

(inaudible set of words 0:20:57.7 ), becomes a tumor and then circulation is an air problem, doesn’t circulate properly, especially diabetics lose their

(twist? 0:21:23.5), so circulation has gone wrong. So that is losing

(words ? 0:21:39.7) but finally the whole circulation has stopped so the air element goes off so you don’t breathe anymore right? And I’m missing one in between. You do not digest the food because it’s a problem for you. There’s not enough heat. In this older talk, with old mankind, what did he say? When you try to eat, everything limited. So the reason why it’s limited eating food , is because you don’t want to throw up

(words? 0:22:49.8) So that’s how people die . The dying people always have all these signals, you get yourself and the purpose is to try to recognize them and once you recognize then you will be able to concentrate on whatever you want to concentrate on. And there’s one danger I noticed in the West very strongly. What happened is when people die, you read a lot of books. Westerners read a tremendous amount of books compared with Tibetans, tremendous and then you take them literally and the capacity to be able to use discrimination wisdom is somehow limited.

0:24:34.3 Good or bad, it’s printed and you will take literally, guaranteed, don’t we? Whether is is newspaper, magazine, book, whatever. It’s printed in black and white you will take it literally. Most of the people do. Another thing is you believe in radio and television. If they say it, oh, yeah. It must be true. Television said so. Or radio said so . So people take literally. So when you read those books, and those books are going to tell you emptiness is the best method to meditate on and then whether or not you have an understanding or you have no understanding, you try to meditate on emptiness or somebody else will try to tell you to meditate on emptiness. You know there’s a book called, “Tibetan Book of Dying or Death" or something, earlier? No. Not Living and Dying. "Tibetan Book of the Dead". 26.27.4

0:26:27.4 And retranslated by Thurman and published this year. This is not the NY Times Best selling book, Living and Dying, retranslation of Tibetan Book of the Dead. A number of people called me and saying , “Oh, yeah. I found that book and so and so, my friend died and I went out and read the book. People do that. Literally, they do that. And they take the book and literally read it and the book says, you read this, and you will be liberated and people do it. So the problem now is in many books they will tell you meditate on emptiness is best, so everybody tries to meditate on emptiness and many people have no idea what emptiness is all about.

What is empty, empty of what? You have no idea what you’re talking about, truly speaking. So, when you have no idea, you try to meditate and all this, and then going through the process of dying. It’s not going to help that much at all. So it is important to remember, important to tell people. It is important to remind people that you do what you can do. You bite what you can chew. If you try to bite something you have no idea, you could break your tooth. So, if you have an idea of emptiness, great. If you don’t, there’s something called love and compassion., you have some idea about it. There’s something called refuge. And if you have a Buddhist background, you can even concentrate on Buddha. And something that you can really chew on, and that’s what you should really bite. It’s not try to bite because it’s the best, you can chew it, you can gnaw it. It is as simple I can tell you go and transform your negativities. Transform your ordinary death into extraordinary Dharmakaya,. I can tell you that.

0:30:36.9 And you can not experiment with that, when you’re dying, because you die only once. You may die another of times if you think of reincarnation, but with opportunity and understanding, you die only once. So, it so important as long as long as your mind is not influenced by negativity, as long as your mind is something

( word- looped? 0:31:25.4) with positiveness, I think it is OK. And it is so important to have a positive feeling, because the negative brings

( word- it? 0:31:56.6) Negative brings negative. Positive brings positive. (32.01.5)

And this is true to our daily life. 0:32:06.4. The difficulty is switching from negative to positive and once you’d be able to switch, you’d be able to continue a little bit better. All the time we know that. So it is making sure that your mind, mental state is not a negative state. Buddha recommends people to be able to purify all the negativities before . And even if you have a big heavy negativity that you have , a huge one but Buddha recommends at the time of death you look at them as something small thing, nothing effective, very small thing and even a tiny little virtuous work, you admitted very tiny little thing but look at them as giant. These are the Buddha’s recommendations and I’ve been telling you earlier for 4, 5 hours . Nobody reminded me even, so one of the recommendations is to not to have attachment. No attachment to yourself, to others, to articles, to bank balance, not to your car, not to your house, not to your bicycle, all this is important. If you have attachment, it holds you back. Attachment is known as the glue for samsara. Attachment sticks them together.

0:35:00.2 So that is a big problem and when I say you don’t have attachment, I don’t mean you leave all your family and run away. On the contrary, you don’t do that . On the contrary, you appreciate what life you’ve been able to have with them. You appreciate the person. You appreciate the time, the quality of time you have spent together. You appreciate the compassion and goodness of the person . That goes for the family, that goes for the companion, that goes for the children, that goes for the parents, that goes for everybody, teachers, students, colleagues, Sangha members, everybody. So appreciation is one thing. Attachment is another thing. So not to have attachment is important but don’t lose the appreciation. You know the bridge between the attachment and pure love is appreciation. Similarly to anger . Similarly to hatred, jealous, so and forth, all this . So the step number one, what we have to provide is no negativity, which will be done through a purification as well as looking at them as small as possible. And then number two will be create some positive karma.

0:38:00.5 And no matter how small it might be, and accept them as giant. So many you got? Two only. I don’t remember anything beyond that. Now what? Do you remember, Marianne Vanderhoost? So, I don’t remember the two others. If I remember tomorrow I’ll tell you. If I don’t, forgive me. That’s what it is. It’s funny. Maybe it’s old age , signal of sunlight. Or whatever it is. Oh, she’s looking. What are you looking at Marianne? Five powers of what? Did I say somewhere the 5 powers of dying? What I’m looking at is. Do you have a Lama Chopa commentary here? When you go home tonight you can look up and tell me tomorrow. At the end of the 6 Paramitas, they say in case if you don’t get connected to the path and if you die by application of the 5 powers, power of white seed, power of prayer, renunciation,. Where is it? Oh. See I told you. So it’s there. Habitual reality. So there you go.

0:41:41.7 I remembered in November. Now I don’t remember. It’s a November thing. So anyway, these are the white seed. White seed means any positive actions, that whatever you had, maybe the white seed and a part of the praying. The praying is also words. It is not a question of believing. It is a question of honesty. And relying on. And a reliable person. that itself is a big question, but anyway. So, constantly, if you sort of pray or say or even dedicate whatever good works I have done, I may be able to have a special powerful smooth transition from the transition.

0:43:30.0 And then the next is renouncing. Renouncing ego, renouncing self-cherishing, renouncing negativities. Renouncing is a very heavy word. But at the same time, making confirmed decision, looking at ego-grasping as a total enemy. We began our talk from there, actually. What else? Motivation. That’s right. Motivation. Wherever you would like to go. Wherever your future rebirth. If you want to go to the pure land or if you want to become another good human being, or whatever , have a strong motivation and a strong conviction, actually, saying I am going to do that. Even if you’ve been saying it, I’ve been forgetting . Habitually. Meaning habitually, you turn yourself towards achieving your goal every day. That’s way I said earlier. People who are saying the Sadhanas . They have that exercise every day. If you don’t do it, and you simply say Om Shobhawa Shudda Sarwa Dharma Sobhawa Shuddho Ham. All is empty. And then goes. That’s a different issue but if you spend time and think, then that’s there. Every day.

0:46:15.9 And so, habitually you build in that because if you want to do it at the last minute, by yourself it becomes very difficult. 90 percent of the time, you will not be successful. You have to train yourself. And the best training is when it becomes habitual. Right? Even those of us who have to do the household chores, and if you get used to it, if you do everything the same thing every day, it’s not difficult. You do it every day. The same thing repeated again is easy. Right? You don’t miss it. So, you get used to it. So, similarly, here, the habitually. That is very important principle in every day in life . in principle, not particularly here. In life, every day. Changing the habitual patterns.

0:48:08.1 Our usual habitual will tell you- Get angry. If you don’t get angry, people will treat you badly or they will drive you over your head or whatever and all this so people have to defend by getting angry and people do that all the time, don’t they? So he said if I don’t do this way, I will be misused. I’ll be treated like a doormat and this and that. It’s our usual habit. Somehow we think we have to defend ourselves by fighting and getting angry. It may be true. There may be one or two people who do that too. But even if they do that, you’re not going to become a doormat, anyway. Nor are you going to lose anything. So the best thing is instead of getting angry, have compassion. Have compassion for the people who try to misuse you. Have compassion for everything. And replace the anger with compassion. So these are the habitual patterns we have to change. And particularly here, the habitual habit of holding on, hanging on and I don’t want to die. Blah, blah, blah. People do that all the time, you know. So when the time comes, no matter, even you hold the pillar, you’ll die while holding the pillar, you know, so that’s what it is. So, therefore, you have to have an understanding and letting it go.

0:51:17.4 So, when you do that, you have to try now , the change of the habitual habits. Try now. Don’t wait ‘till you die. If you do, it will be too late. So thanks to Marianne, I think we have got the 5 there now. You get it? So Buddha recommends things like that, there’s like 11 points. I’m not going to count it because when I can’t find these 5, I’m not going to be able to count 11 points, nor the 6 points. I’m not going to be able to point it.(repeating comment from the audience) It’s all available here . I see. Thanks. What book is that? That was last November’s talk transcribed. OK. So, that’s it. So looking at those things, there’s a big menu with a lot of choices. The Buddha has given a tremendous amount of choices and at least a simple point, if you can’t do it, if you just can’t do anything else, have very positive feelings . Even that will do. The positive feeling I’m describing is not like usual positive most people think. It’s going to be all right. I’m not talking about that positiveness. I’m saying virtuous positive such as compassion, love, or kindness, understanding , this type of any positiveness.

0:54:07.6 So basically, briefly what we hav touched today is the basic human sufferings, birth, aging, death, and illness. Illness you don’t need much to talk. We know when you have trouble, you say ouch. If your back goes out, you know that. So the first Noble truth is the truth of suffering, and the purpose of the Truth of suffering is not, you’re going to say life is suffering. No. I had a big problem with that. But the point is there’s a lot of pain and suffering in life and acknowledging it understanding it, and also understand it is not a permanent fixture. It is impermanent. It is changing. It can move. You’re not doomed at all, so you can move. You can change so in other words, first Noble Truth, to recognize suffering in life and work out that there’s a way out. So, tomorrow we will work out the cause of suffering and how to overcome it. And we’ve got to stop here today even though it’s 15 minutes early, we do have a young couple who would like to remarry a second time in a Buddhist way, or Tibetan way, or in my way. So, it a little bit of a serious ritual here. When I was asked the first time in Holland for the marriage ceremony, we didn’t have those things at all, so what we did. We had a Lama Chopa Tsoh, and offered a scarf to the couple. Remember that? Marianne recalls and we did that. And in Tibetan tradition there’s a very elaborate manner of getting married which is extremely elaborate and so saying Lama Chopa and putting a scarf is not recognized by law in the United States. So we have to compromise in between. So what happens is we have some kind of little different style of getting married. We worked out. a little rituals . It is very positive and it’s wonderful, so bear with us for a couple of minutes. What we are doing is actually, a marriage, is another vow, another commitment. And it is the commitment of one to the other. And using the enlightened beings as witness and the Sangha as witness. And performing the rituals. And that’s what it is and we worked out the rituals on the basis of White Tara. So here we begin.

1 1:00:44.1 It’s going to be very simple way today. Normally we have the 2 couples coming from different directions, so today only one direction. So, I hope everyone had a nice sleep . Some strange questions pop up in your head. Yes sir. Student-“ I have a question about yesterday the 5 powers…, (He isn’t mic-ed, so hard to hear the whole question)

1:03:07.5 Excuse me. May I know your name? Robert Skippers. (spelling) Skch, ok. Ok, Bob, Robert, 7 limb is fine, perfectly ok. Actually, one of the best prayers is the 7 limbs . I think in the Bodhisattvacharyavatara, it says -he quotes in Tibetan

1:04:18.7 So, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. They say for aeons they thought the best way to do and they draw the conclusion that it’s the 7 limbs, so it’s one of the best, if you can manage. It’s one of the best. Even if you can’t manage, all 7, I guess you can drop making a request for teaching , but you can not drop rejoice, you can not drop purification. I guess you can not drop the prayers and offerings, you can not drop accumulation of merit. The 7 is greatest but then if you have to drop down, maybe you can drop 1 or 2 out and I don’t mean you, personally, but anybody who are unable to manage even 7 and they probably can do something like that and the essence of making offerings, purification and rejoice. The 3 of them are extremely important. Any other questions, anybody? Yeah. Hi. The question is in Buddhism, what is the difference between mind and consciousness, but even then it is difficult in translation too. I use both terms in Dutch, and then even to put them in English, now, already starts making confusion.

1:07:03.5 . You’re really hitting at the bottom of the difficult button. Actually, there is something called consciousness separate from that of mind. this will become a philosophical question even in the Buddhist schools there are different viewpoints and thoughts. Some will accept what we call, “kushi”, which is the basis of all, so basis of all mental faculties functioning like.

( word?- 1:08:01.4) mind only school, and then there are certain schools which do not accept that at all, yet they all accept consciousness as separate from that of the mind which is most important senses, out of 6 senses. They separately accept that. Which is supposed to have come from previous lives and staying in this life, and will go in the future lives. And might be some kind of a very subtle consciousness, something similar to that of mind, but maybe even a little more subtle than mind, and more lucid then mind, and something like that.

1:10:20.6. There’s another thing called primordial mind and all of them are extremely subtle, yet very lucid. Which has been referred by different people terminologies such as Sogyal Rimpoche’s organization been named Rigpa is an idiom. In one way Rigpa is mind, in another way, it’s an idiom for primordial mind. That’s a little complicated, you know, but I’m glad you’re looking at it and when you look at really the subtle consciousness, there’s a big question whether this subtle consciousness equals Dzogchen or whether that subtle consciousness is equal to Mahamudra, whether that subtle consciousness is equal to Rigpa or (word? 1:12:25.8) In Kagyu tradition, they refer to (word?) 1:12:30.4 Which probably means ordinary mind if you look at it, the direct word translation but it doesn’t mean that. It’s totally again referring to primordial mind. In the Kagyu tradition,

(word? 1:13:08.0) Then there’s also really another big question what you really have to look very carefully is the Uma from the Gelukpa, Mahamudra from the Kagyupa , Dzogchen from the Nyingma but what’s really differs, the presentation they’re labeled differently but how it really comes out . The first Panchen Lama had said (quotes in Tibetan)

1:14:08.0 So there is different terminologies and names and labels but an experienced yogi practitioners, if you really look very carefully, it will boil down to one single point. That’s what the first Panchen Lama said . Then another question comes. I’m sorry. Maybe I shouldn’t ask the question myself. Ah, maybe yes. Since I said it . Another question comes when you encounter yourself directly even it you have to understand. Understand, encounter, seeing , all of them have a one word in Tibetan. It’s called

(Tdok-pa? 1:15:14.7) Those people who are studying

(word? 1:15:35.8) They know what Tdok-pa really is. But you never know how, it it is very complicated . What does really Tdok-pa mean? Tdok-mey?

1:15:55.3 Mey is negative 1:15:55.3 so Tdok-pa less, without Tdok-pa. What does that really mean? There’s another word Tdok-pa which is spiritual development. Forget about that. We’re not talking about that Tdok-pa at all. We’re talking about Tdok-pa, the carnation of the mind. What does Tdok-pa really mean? Forget about tdok-pa. What does it really mean, understanding acknowledging, what does all this really mean? Now directly, if you look at like you say look over there, you see the green leaves and you look at them somehow your eye consciousness goes over there and feels or sees the greenness of that and the moment you see that greenness of it, and that message of that greenness or that green, or that transmits immediately to the sixth sense of the principal mind.

1:17:22.5 So that the principal mind acknowledges , ha, here is green right? But how does the principal mind know it’s green? It’s all very complicated, all of them so this is not that difficult because the principal mind was told , introduced by a perfect mind, introduced to the principal mind, say hi. this is green. So, the moment you get that message the principal mind looks through its computer chip chart within itself and it tallies with the previously introduced chart which is labeled as green so the moment it tallies , hah, this is green.

1:19:17.9 So, presuming nothing goes wrong, a lot of things can go wrong, you know. Presuming nothing went wrong,. So you get an understanding , this is green. That probably is (word?-Tdokpa)

1:20:04.3 But, this we are talking on an external point. Now, if you point it out internally and look at mind itself, the mind itself and when you get a cognition of mind to the principal mind . You know, we’re talking about the green and instead of green, you put the mind. So, now you’re looking at the mind, and you see the mind. And you get the message. The chart comes through. And then you say, “Ah. This is my mind.” Now here comes the problem. Who is the one who says, this is my mind? Which is the one who is looking at it? How is it? So then people talk about. Oh, there is the dualistic . There’s no dualistic .It’s oneness, like water in the water, milk in the milk, all this philosophical whatever. Not only philosophy. you can not leave it out because you’ve got to experience, so all of them will come up.

1:22:01.3. That is another problem. You have to deal with it. Let’s say if you deal with that problem,. All right. You said there’s no dualistic or whatever you say. It doesn’t matter much .You’re not supposed to have dualism. There’s no dualistic . You’ve merged the observer with the observing

(probably he meant to say with the object of observation 1:22:35.9) together like milk in the milk, water in the water . You can separate. Not water in the milk. Water in the milk can be separated by

(word? 1:22:46.7) We can not but machines will separate it. But water in the water, milk in the milk is very difficult to separate so that is the example of being not having dualism. 1:22:59.4. So then, the question comes is this the liberation? Yah and there are a great many teachers who say yes. And they say this is the introduction to the mind, and this is liberation and this is Mahamudra, they say this is Dzogchen, all of those. But then, somebody else will say oh, no. This is the relative point. You’re not liberated. So it becomes very complicated. So you push a terrible button.

1:24:10.7. Ok. I think that’s enough for this purpose for today. At least you give you an idea, give everybody an idea what it is. What is different between Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Uma, whatever you say, and actual liberation is actually the true liberation. You know even you call it emptiness wisdom, blah, blah blah, all this but what really liberates the individual is the understanding of emptiness on mind, is the actual liberator. Then, another question comes, what is emptiness you know. All of them are very complicated. I spent quite a lot of time even in Denmark during my last visit with Tarab Rimpoche. We spent day and night together, trying to find out what is what. (laughs) We get nowhere. But he’s really good at it, extremely good at it , extremely good at that, you know, really . So when we invited him in Jewel Heart, the first thing I said to him was the four pillars, right? Absolute Bodhichitta, yeah I mean because I thought it is Bodhichitta is something which people like, so bring the emptiness so we said absolute Bodhichitta, where he started the four Pillars of how to look in the Bodhi mind, you know? So, really he’s good at it . Ok, now what else? Oh, any other questions? Sorry, my mind .

1:26:59.5 Questioner: Yesterday you said that with our consciousness we perceive reality but we do not create reality, and now she would like to know more precisely how that works, because there seems to be a kind of gap in between there. Rimpoche: Absolutely true . Creation is something else. Perceiving, acknowledging is another thing. There are a lot of people who think whatever you perceive you have created by your mind. But, another difficult subject. The question of creation itself is a big issue . What do you mean by creation? Does it mean establishment? 1:28:55.8