Archive Result

22

Soundfile 20000819GRNL2

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Netherlands

Topic Tsongkhapa

Transcriber Kay Pierce

Date 1/15/2022

(translated into Dutch)

0:00:00 Rimpoche. We're back here with the same thing to talk to you or to ask among ourself. Oh one thing I like to share with you, I mean this for the information of the members of the Jewel Heart. Hey good to see you, how are you? When I was in California with the Buddhist teachers conference one evening the Dalai Lama's representative in America told me His Holiness want to see you. I said where? Right now! I said but where? At the residence. I don't even know where His Holiness stay. I said where the residence is? I don't know, it's somewhere up there in mountain. How do I get there? Tell the teacher organizer, they'll bring you. Alright, so I told them. It's Jack Kornfield was the organizer so I told Jack Kornfield they told me His Holiness want to see me right now. Yes, yes I know he said. Okay, so how do I get there? I'll take you, so they took me there. So I had audience with His Holiness for quite a long time, about, could be close to 12 or something, in his bedroom so been talking. So the point what I like to share with you is the point is about issue of the Protector. So His Holiness clearly told me that I cannot force you what to do, I cannot tell you what you should do, should not do but that's what I want talk about it, he said. So then I said whatever your Holiness say, what else, you know. So whatever your Holiness say. He say well I cannot tell you what to do, what not to do anyway. If you tell me whatever your Holiness says, then I like to talk to you he said. He talks the relationship from the [0:02:44 Tibetan word] to 13th Dalai Lama and I said it's too long, too arduous, you know, all this relationship. And then finally he said at this lifetime also so we know each other since childhood. He said when they tells me you are in the West I'm happy that you are there but when I think you are not really doing exactly what I want you to do over the Protectors so it's a little funny. So I don't think you should be the camp in opposing the Dalai Lama. And I said I'm not in the opposing Dalai Lama camp but whatever you say, okay. So he said alright, in that case I'm going to tell you not to do that practice any more. Well okay, whatever you say. Then he say you don't have to do anything. I say okay, fine. Then after a little while, well you said Mahakala a little bit. I said okay, fine. Dharma King occasionally. Fine. Paldan Lhamo occasionally. Fine. Then he say well sometimes you say Five Kings together and then the Tibetan government Protector, too. Well I'm sorry, I'm not going to say all of them, either, I know it's out now (laughs).

0:04:16 I got a little surprised but, so that's what happened. I just wanted to share that with the people in Jewel Heart, so that's exactly what had happened. Well okay, I mean what else.

0:04:29 Translator. I didn't quite get that last thing about the five kings.

0:04:32 Rimpoche. Oh that doesn't matter. Those are another Protector, five brothers, five kings or something.

(translation & some discussion in Dutch)

0:07:30 Rimpoche. So that's what happened. That's something I like to share with you. Some people may like to know, that's why. So anything else? Anybody want, any difficulties you want to talk about it? It's not that I have answers but anybody? Okay, the first is that gentleman with the red shirt and then the lady here and then you. Okay go ahead.

0:08:15 Question #1. What was the conclusion of this congress, this Buddhist teacher's meeting?

0:08:22 Rimpoche. No conclusion. I was really looking for some good conclusion, no. They said we should meet again. (laughter) It's not even a congress, it's just a meeting for a few a days up there.

0:09:17 Question #2. You explain some things about this message of Thich Nhat Hahn this morning and she would like to know what the essence is of what you had to say about that.

0:09:27 Rimpoche. Nothing. Just commenting view of them. Nothing. I haven't even read, I read two points, that's why. Two points what I thought is good ones so I commented. Nothing. Goes to you.

0:10:53 Question #3: This morning you talked about practice and that it's not so much important whether you do your practice, say your mantras, etc., or not. On the other hand that it is necessary to do them, that you do need them. And now the question is to what extent is practice necessary for your spiritual development or is spiritual development a matter of grace? How do we have to do that?

0:11:28 Rimpoche. It's interesting question. I did not say practice is not important. The way I was talking about it, what is the Buddhism? So you must take it with the context. So what I'm saying, what is the Buddhism? In that some people will say practice is Buddhism. So from that angle I'm saying that's not that important. And I don't think I said practice is not important for you to improve. So that's [0:12:25 unclear] That's what I thought when I was reading Thich Nhat Hahn, oh better say I'm not criticizing him.

0:12:37 Question #3 cont'd: But then the question remains to what extent does practice lead to development or is it dependent on your efforts? What is grace, is there grace?

0:12:45 Rimpoche. No, practice is training. Practice is training and training leads to perfection. And I don't deny blessing and grace and all those but I don't count too much. That's me, person. I don't deny, I know it's there. I know it helps but I don't know how it works and I don't count on it. That's me, personal, nothing more, nothing less.

0:13:45 Question #3 cont'd (asked in English): ...you say practice is a priority and it's difficult to accept it is a priority so there are hindrances.

0:13:52 Rimpoche. Is practice a priority? Yes. Do we try to maintain? Yes. Is it difficult to maintain? Yes. It's really difficult to maintain particularly when you have so many commitments. You break all the time. It's not only you who breaks, I'm the one who breaks all the time. I've broken many times in my life so it is always like that. Nothing, nothing... don't freak out. And always when you flying between the Atlantic Ocean somehow I notice, somehow I miss something, you know, all the time. I don't know what happens, some change of time, so somehow I sort of settled there. I done it, okay fine, I done this morning over there, that's good enough. So I sort of push it away and I don't think I broke, I don't think that way. Actually the times changed, right? I will do that same thing on Monday. (laughter) I'll do it in the plane and by the time the I'm [0:15:46 unclear] oh yes I done on the plane already today. So I'll wait til the Tuesday.

0:16:02 Question #3 cont'd: Last question. So then how can we stay cheerful about ourself?

0:16:09 Rimpoche. Stay what? Cheerful!

0:16:12 Question #3 cont'd: Cheerful.... I know for myself in my practice I do that and because I do that....

0:16:19 Rimpoche. Then do it! (laughter) I mean really, just do it! Don't keep on moaning. You don't do it, don't keep on moaning. What is the use? Yes, really. Instead of moaning just do it, whatever it is, you know. Really true, you know, why keep on moaning? [0:17:08 unclear] Shantideva said this is not only for practice, for everything. Shantideva says if there's something to be corrected, correct. If there's nothing can be corrected why worry? It is additional mental agony. We have that problem you know we don't correct, we keep on [0:18:03 unclear] that's a numbness, is it. Any other question anybody have? Yes, [person's name]?

0:18:26 Question (asked in English): I hope we have a discussion about analytic meditation. We all know there is a difference between analytic meditation and thinking about the subjects. And if there is a difference what's the difference exactly?

0:18:56 Rimpoche. Analytic meditation is thinking about the subject. If you look at the concentrated meditation, the concentrated meditation will not allow you to think anything about the detail and it sort of holds things together. For example looking at the Buddha's picture over there, Buddha picture over there, and then sort of looking at it. I mean you should not do a concentrated meditation by looking at the picture but still if you are doing the concentrated meditation, the concentrated meditation will simply do the holding the picture together. Picture together thinking on the picture, focusing on the picture on the wall, whole thing. Even it's not a detail, even it's not clear, even you don't see the face or anything, just simply holding wall is concentrated meditation. Even it is subject. But analytical meditation will provide yes, it is a Buddha, Buddha sitting on the lotus cushion, yes it is a buddha, it has a head, it has two eyes, it has three eyes, whatever, it has begging bowl. And bringing whole thing little more clarity and more specific without loosing the total picture is the analytical meditation, particularly in this case. In other words the analytical meditation will clarify, subtract and builds up. Concentrated meditation doesn't do that. Analytical meditation on subject will make you understand subject better. It clarifies, it's [0:22:57 unclear]. But concentrated meditation on subject is simply confirm it, keep on seeing it, it is, it is, it is. Is this clear to you? So in one way it is simple, in one way it is complicated, but it is that way. That's why it is always important to have the analytical meditation to provide the base for concentrated meditation. Okay? Anybody else? Anything else? It's interesting.

0:24:46. Question. He would like to some more about Protectors, like what is a Protector and if you want to know more about it what books to read or where you could find information.

0:25:01 Rimpoche. Basically the word "protector" is a English word. The original Sanskrit word is the Dharmapala or in the Tibetan is the [0:25:16 Tibetan word], One Who Protects Dharma, rather than Protector. Originally I believe during the Buddha's period there like four of them. The King of East and West and North and South. So somehow the Buddha leveled them as Dharma Protectors. Thereafter then quite a number of them came in and each and every one of them say in their own ritual or sutra or whatever, you have to say ritual, each and every one of them their own ritual they say they are fully enlightened beings. But they appeared as wrathful this and peaceful that and this and that. And then there's a division whether they're a samsaric or non-samsaric. Like Mahakala Dharma King, Paldan Lhamo, [0:27:30 Tibetan word], those are considered as non-samsaric. There are all kind of different Mahakala. "Mahakala" means big black but there's a white one, too. (laughter) There's something called a white Mahakala (laughs). I mean it looks very funny if you really think, if you don't think that's okay it's a white Mahakala, it's fine. But if you think, if you really think, the white big black one (laughs). So anyway there's so many of them. So their job is to protect dharma, that's why they called Dharma Protector. Are they fully enlightened beings? In reality I think they are, either samsaric or non-samsaric. Good ones. But those samsaric ones are included in the field of merit, non-samsarics. You'll find them above this lotus. The lower part of the lotus you'll find a whole, whole bunch of them there. Then there's a non-samsaric, samsaric ones [0:29:40 it's not clear if he meant both of these or not]. Many of them some kind of human being died and becoming powerful ghost type of thing, many of them. So in old Tibet there's each and every province, each and every religion, each and every monastery, all of them have their different protectors and so it's a big mess. It's really true, it's a big mess. It's almost like old Egyptian, they have fire god, water god, you know, rock god, mountain god. I don't mean the goat, mountain goat. (laughter)

0:31:06 Very similar in Tibet, very similar. If you go in Tibet even today with all this cultural revolution and the communism, all that, even after that there are all these mountain gods and tree gods and water gods and rock gods and village gods and that side's village gods and this side's village gods. They're all there. Then some lamas will say this is good and that's bad. The other lamas will say this is good and that’s bad, they’re supposed to be better than us. We had this scandal for many years, that’s including the Dalai Lama. He’s one of the main person anyway. So I don’t know. So personally I think that is something in the West should not touch unless you’re anthropologist, then you can figure out what it is anthropologically. Otherwise it is better for us do a Dharma practice, don’t involve Protector politics no matter whoever the person is talking to you anyway. In the interest of the individual western practitioner it’s better of not to involve. It’s some kind of Tibetan dirty laundry which they’ve been unable to wash since the 16th century. (laughter) For 300 years and still washing, so let it be. I don’t think I have any books for you to recommend to read about it. I’m sorry. And those Protectors, they have their own little rituals. The rituals are composed by the most famous lamas at that time. And every ritual say this is fully enlightened one and blah blah blah, everyone of them. So that’s what it is.

0:35:46 Question (asked in English; hard to hear) ....I would love it if you could tell us something well, about ....Tsongkhapa yourself.... because there’s so little time..... the person Tsongkhapa gets attention and there’s not many teachers to say okay he’s a great master, he did this, but there’s not so many time spent to have something told about his life and inspiration cause he’s the big inspiration of our tradition. So I would like that if you could.....

0:36:18 Rimpoche. Very good idea. I hope I’ll remember something. Well, one thing we have to look in, if you look back say about, what, 7 or 8 hundred years ago in good old Tibetan tradition (long pause) If you looked back in the early, in the Sakya tradition of those 5 great famous Sakya lamas came and they become very famous and great. Not only they are learned and developed and they’re also, there’s some kind of blood relationship among themself. They have some easy way of coming up. And likewise any other tradition, any tradition in this somehow there seems to be some kind of ruling class. This is very reactionary way of looking it, I’m sorry. I’ve a very, very bad way of looking it but there’s some kind of, everywhere the great lamas if you look it, it is somehow belonging to upper ruling, ruling upper society, class fellows, somebody’s uncle, somebody’s nephew, somebody’s something of that circle. And then this karma birth thing come in, become that, recognition of reincarnation and all of those came. So somehow it becomes in that level and somebody who is very, very poor, who has no blood or family relation of a high social standing, it’s very hard to come up as somebody. And Tsongkhapa not only came up but came up such a outstanding, but doesn’t not only have a blood or relationship but doesn’t even belong to the central Tibet. At that time the power is in central Tibet. He does not even belong there, he’s just way out from Chinese border and for him to go sort of, really, a perfect beggar who walked his way from the Chinese border to center Tibet for really months by begging on the road, to be able to be something like that is a tremendous tribute to his understanding and his personality because it is a sort of nepotism there, anywhere. And way how he had come up is also he faces difficulties, just like we do. He really faces tremendous amount of difficulty, of accepting what they say it is. You know what I mean? Do you get? What they say it is. The point of a true understanding is somehow based on the tradition of teaching or the book or something. And for him it has tremendous difficulty to say it is just because it says in the book and he faces lot of struggle. Struggle of alienation by people, struggles of anti-tradition and being anti-tradition, and many other things traditionally taken for granted. Like that he raises tremendous amount of question.

0:44:40 For example, like the Tibetan of the Dead. Tsongkhapa raises so much question saying that if somebody’s dying if you read this book how is it possible that that person can be liberated? So why doesn’t that person enjoy his life throughout and make sure you hire a number people to read that by the time when you’re dying, so why should you have to put efforts, things like that. And Tsongkhapa would not simply buy, it is Tsongkhapa who organized the whole Lamrim stages. Before Tsongkhapa the teaching of the Lamrim is just scattered all over. It’s like you’re reading the Prajñâ Paramita text. It is transcendental wisdom text, or reading a metaphysical like Abhidharma text, or you read [Tibetan] tantra. And all of those everywhere is totally scattered. Even the viewpoints of the four different Buddhist schools are scattered all over. So it is Tsongkhapa who be able to bring them together, and brought them together and organized it. Actually it is Atisha who did it a little bit as the [0:47:18 Tibetan?] then Tsongkhapa really made it much more, sort of pull everything together and made it a little simple, easy, organized way of observing. Before Tsongkhapa, and think this practice is a, well before Tsongkhapa can’t say very much, since Atisha the Kadampa lamas have that. But until that it is sort of, I think the books even you look in today it looks like a sort of specialized subject text, it’s sort of meant for a specialized person, person who specialized whatever point you been specialized in. I don’t think there’s a sort of a cohesive, comprehensive, general necessary information, necessary guideline, necessary outline. I don’t think there is such, I think it’s a big Tsongkhapa’s contribution.

0:49:28 Translator. I’m sorry, you mean there was no outline before then?

0:49:32 Rimpoche. It all looks like very scattered everywhere. It is he who brought things together. You have to remember this. How does Buddha did teachings? Buddha never did teachings in organized, I mean he did teachings organized, but teachings are mostly done because somebody asked question. So then the Buddha said this is this, this is that, this is not this, this is that because. So if you looking the Buddha’s teachings are it is sort of scattered all over everything and nothing is cohesive, nothing is comprehensive though there is 100 and some part volumes. Many of each volumes will not talk many things together in thoughts. It’s a bunch of questions and answers together type of thing. Undefined subject, like what we’re doing today, undefined, that type of thing. And not only this in the sutra part, they did the same thing in tantra part, not only the Lamrim but in [0:51:48 Tibetan word] also. Then he also the person who emphasize so much in ethics. Up to Tsongkhapa it was quite, ah, character slightly a little wild and crazy. People like me who are not remaining to be monk has a little picnic spot. It is Tsongkhapa who emphasized so much on the ethics on the individual. Emphasized for ethical conduct to be importantness of the celibacy be a monk or nun. The monastery doesn’t have married people living. Things like that. The monks also don’t do funny things. They wear their proper dress and non-monks don’t wear monk’s dress. That type of ethical emphasis also made by Tsongkhapa in Tibet. In other words before Tsongkhapa the crazy wisdom activities are quite popular in Tibet, and it is he who cut them down because it create confusion rather than help. It creates tremendous confusion. And that is the one contribution and a tremendous contribution on that. And also a lot of discipline in the monasteries. Before Tsongkhapa about 100 or so years, maybe even a little more, monasteries almost become villages. A lot of monks have kids and families and animals, all kinds of things.

0: 56:00 It’s almost like Mongolia. When I went to Mongolia each one of those monks in Mongolia are married and they have their kids. And whether you are a monk or not, monk is whether you’re bald, whether your hair is short or long. That’s sort of definition of that. The monastery is here, the village is here. The monks are here during the day time and the night, there. But then the woman, you know the wives and kids, are also here during the day time. If a prayer meeting start the monks are sitting there and then all the wives are sitting in other corner and all the kids are running in between. (laugher) So it’s probably what Tibet must been like that before Tsongkhapa. That’s what I thought at that time. Tsongkhapa clean it up and that’s how our ethics he had emphasized so much, so much so that almost end of his life he indicated to quite a number of his disciples such as Khedrup Je all that, he indicated that it’s almost time for him to get married. It is not necessarily time to get married but it is the time for him to have consort. So the Khedrup Rimpoche and all those people begged him you know, What? That’s what you have done with your life and now if you going take a consort whole thing will be wasted so for the benefit of all beings please do not become fully enlightened in your life time. So that’s I think a big sacrifice and contribution Tsongkhapa made.

0:59:40 And also if you’re looking at these practices we do like every level at the level of the impermanence you have nine round of meditation. It is Tsongkhapa’s invention, actually, creation. And then if you look at the development of the love compassion the traditional teachings will have either a seven stage or exchange stage, but it is Tsongkhapa who put exchange and seventh stage together and made eleven stage development and made it very easy for people to deal with it. It is also Tsongkhapa who pointed out three most important things, the three principles of the path. Out of all this three most important thing to pull it out and individually be able to work and development and make it easy to deal with, it is also Tsongkhapa with the help of Manjushri. Then of course wisdom, I mean for the Gelugpa symbol (? 1:02:10) the outstanding thing is for wisdom anyway. Everybody in Tibet before claims to be the Nagarjuna’s followers but there’s no one who really able to understood Nagarjuna clearly until Tsongkhapa in Tibet. It is Tsongkhapa who emphasize eight special points of [1:03:04 Tibetan word]. [1:03:04 same word] is Buddhapalita’s system. It differs from the [1:03:11 Tibetan word] system. It is Tsongkhapa who discovered.

(translation and discussion in Dutch)

1:04:05 So those eight points are the point of wisdom actually. So there’s countless contributions of the Tsongkhapa. These are the only sutra part, then there’s a tremendous amount of contributions to tantra part. And then the monasteries are also huge. And the Tsongkhapa is very bad, is not organized at all. So what happened is he has so much followers and when they’re okay he told go home wherever you belong to, wherever your native land go there and meditate yourself and teach. And that’s why the monasteries are following Gelugpa tradition within Tsongkhapa’s lifetime and even after. It’s just like mushroom, it grows all over Tibet, all over suddenly because so many people accumulated together and suddenly he send them away. And so there’s thousands of them in thousand different areas and where they have one or two hundred, and two to three hundred, and thousands, so accumulated and suddenly monasteries popped up. It’s not organized well like the Sakya tradition or the Kagyu tradition or Nyingma tradition. They have a system, you know. It’s almost like Rome and Pope and all that type of thing. It is completely different, it is completely disorganized, a bunch of hippies running everywhere. That’s really what it is. Just like 60s culture, what the Tsongkhapa did. And the consequences of this that the Gelugpa organizations such as ourself, Jewel Heart, doesn’t belong anybody. We’re not under anybody, you know. No one can tell us what to do; it is ourself. Even today this is what 500, 600 years later the Gelugpa organizations, monasteries are independent. Nobody falls under anybody though the bigger monasteries try to have control over the smaller, you know, they’re trying their best whatever they’re doing (laughs). Tsongkhapa’s successor is luckily a wonderful [1:08:39 Tibetan word], there’s no reincarnated lama. There’s no Tsongkhapa reincarnation, recognized one. Many claims to be Tsongkhapa but there’s no one who recognize that and say this is Tsongkhapa Rimpoche. There is no such person called Tsongkhapa Rimpoche here. So the successor to Tsongkhapa is become Ganden Tripa. Why Ganden Tripa? Because Ganden is the main monastery of Tsongkhapa and whoever the senior abbot of the Ganden is really the Ganden Tripa originally.

1:09:56 But from the 5th Dalai Lama onwards the central Tibet government needs, wants to have some control over those monasteries. So what they did they try to reorganize monasteries all the time. The way in how they want to reorganize it the government, the Dalai Lama administration would like to have some power over who their going to appoint the monastery heads. That is a 500-year struggle they went through. So much so that Ganden has two colleges. One is called Jangtse and the other is called Shartse. Instead of Jangtse abbot and Shartse abbot the Tibetan government came out with the idea of appointing a Jangtse [1:11:31 Tibetan word] and a Shartse [1:11:33 Tibetan word] above the abbot of the Jangtse and Shartse. And then on top of that they appointed Ganden Tripa, not appointed, they somehow selected Ganden Tripa who will be the turn by turn of this Jangtse and Shartse abbot. You know one time it’s Shartse the other time its Jangtse, they turned. Then there’s a [1:29:25 unclear] of taking away from Ganden and they started injecting people who are living in Lhasa. This happened to be the upper and lower tantric college in Lhasa. So they wanted people in Lhasa to become the head so the Jangtse [1:12:31 Tibetan word] and a Shartse [1:12:33 Tibetan word] is the ex-abbot of [1:12:49 Tibetan] upper tantric and lower tantric on top of the Jangtse and Shartse, you know.

(translation and discussion in Dutch)

1:13:43 So it was a funny political push by the central power, it’s a sort of struggle 500, but still no one can appoint Ganden Tripa, still made into the routine. But then I think it’s either 13th Dalai Lama or the present Dalai Lama, probably the present Dalai Lama, after coming to India, then Ganden Tripa was appointed. So it becomes a little funny struggle there. So anyway, that’s how Tsongkhapa’s contributions, very briefly. Anyway what happens, even though there’s a Ganden Tripa, Ganden Tripa has no control over any monastery. Whether the monasteries are leaned to respect or not, that’s what depends on it. If the monasteries are leaned to respect Ganden Tripa then they listen to Ganden Tripa. If they don’t want to respect to him they don’t have to listen to him. So that’s what it is. That’s the Tsongkhapa’s contribution. Big mess. (laughter) Great freedom. Those great lamas, like lineage lamas, when you look at it all their sort of power came out of respect of the individual. Nothing organizations’ way to handed over the power. Now if you look at Pabongkha look at Pabongkha, okay, at the time of the Pabongkha lifetime or even after the Pabongkha was treated as almost a living Buddha, at least in central Tibet. Also nearby and almost everywhere. But Pabongkha has no power, no authority, anything. Anybody who fight anything, if they have any – what you call it – dispute he have no power to settle dispute. He can suggest if they listen to him as respect to him then it is settled. If there is no respect, if either party has no respect nothing can be settled by anything. Any monasteries may of may not listen to Pabongkha. If they do listen it is all because of the monastery officials who have respect to Pabongkha. That’s why they listen, because they don’t have to listen. So that’s how it is. There is no one who really has such authority like looking at the Karmapas or the Tsongkhapas(?) or the [1:19:03 Tibetan] or all of those. They have, the [1:19:05 Tibetan] has [1:19:07 Tibetan] Rimpoche. Tsongkhapa has [1:19:10 Tibetan] and Karmapa has Karmapa. Really, the Gelugpa doesn’t have that. And the Dalai Lama was never head of the Gelugpa, never ever at all. And he’s the head of Tibet, temporal and spiritual head of Tibet. His control over Tibet was political, 5th Dalai Lama through 13th Dalai Lama, with the exception of the 7th Dalai Lama.

1:20:17 The 7th Dalai Lama who has no political power because the government refused to give the power to the 7th Dalai Lama, they didn’t give him power. He doesn’t have political power, he’s like the Queen of England, figurehead over there has no power. But the people has tremendous respect, he controls much more than the government of his. It’s funny, the 7th Dalai Lama. The Tibetan government get into trouble with the people and then they run to 7th Dalai Lama, and the 7th Dalai Lama will come and beg the people and he does all kind of things. And finally people okay, they leave administration alone. So the administration at that time was controlled by crooks only. One day, big function, these government officers ask the 7th Dalai Lama please compose a new tea offering. That is when the ceremony where the tea will be served so everybody is completely quiet and then they will say this tea offering. And then he need to have a new tea offering but he didn’t write anything. So then the tea ceremony came, then time for the tea drinking so everybody’s waiting. And Dalai Lama’s also waiting. Then somebody reminded, you supposed to have a new tea offering today. It is the big national assembly, actually. Then he says, oh I forgot. So suddenly he picked up his cup then he says, one steals from the another, and one gives the stealing thing to the other. And then he says, it is a sea of thieves. The most important [1:24:07 Tibetan] that’s himself, offer to the [1:24:10 Tibetan] the most important thing (laughter). That’s his tea offering, telling everybody you’re stealing from people and you give to somebody else. The ultimate give is me! So that is how he has to handle his government. (laughs)

1:24:48 When he need a new, you know this brocade cover the monks wear, the yellow, these things they wear over their yellow, and when he need a new one he has to go and borrow from the government. That’s the 7th Dalai Lama. And he sent his attendant, tomorrow there’s a ceremonial functions, say may I borrow a set of new clothes from the government? That’s how he functioned. Anyway, so a lot of people think Tibet was a wonderful idea, dream Shambala. That’s your Shambala. And here’s your Tsongkhapa, too. But it’s great. So in other words what Tsongkhapa really did he has set up a democratic organization of Gelugpa order, total democratic, not centralized, decentralized, the democratic institution so much without calling them a democracy. And it is very much a central controlled, I mean it’s a 1400s you know. It’s maybe the Renaissance period in the west, is almost Renaissance period in the west and it’s the same thing in Tibet. And what he really established is the democratic masses, and it is the subject of the prosecution of the Tibetan rulers after Tsongkhapa so many times, until 5th Dalai Lama came to power. About 200 years the central Tibet government is always trying to prosecute the Gelugpas because they are the disorganizing (? 1:28:19) bunch of masses. It’s really true. There’s no head and there’s no order, there’s no organization, bunch of little things everywhere, and does not respect anybody. It’s really become a lawless bunch of malicious type of people in the eyes of the Tibetan government then. Anyway, that’s what it is. That’s the lineage you’re in. (laughter) That’s the mess. That’s independent. Freedom. Huh? Dharma Freedom fighters. (laughter) So there’s that. Is that enough or terrible?

1:29:54 Oh, I forgot. Tsongkhapa had visions. (laughter) Manjushri as a teacher, 35 purification Buddhas, and early Indian teachers. Even Tsongkhapa himself has mispresented the emptiness viewpoint for quite a while. He’s famous commentary on the transcendental wisdom, two volumes, called Golden Mala (?). It gives you the viewpoint of mind only school because Tsongkhapa at that moment, he’s at that level. And then he’s not satisfied with this viewpoint he came in contact with Manjushri, and then Manjushri sent him to a mountain to do a retreat and do a mandala offering and prostrations and for a lot of purifications. And over there he had those vision after vision. He totally ignored them, then finally became confirmed. And one night he had an interesting dream [1:32:12 Rimpoche speaks in Tibetan]. So one night he was dreaming Nagarjuna and five of them are talking about this emptiness. He tried to listen, he tried to listen, he couldn’t hear what they’re talking about it. They’re talking something blah blah blah all the time, and suddenly Buddhapalita turned around and saw Tsongkhapa listening and came over and he’s this big nose Indian, blue-looking old guy, came over and brought his book called Buddhapalita, and he blessed him on the head, that book. And the next day somebody came to see Tsongkhapa and gave him Buddhapalita commentary book that correspond with his dream. And then he read that commentary. It’s not the first time he read it, he said 13th or something. And then the middle of the level or somewhere he really begin to get it, what it mean by emptiness.

1:34:16 And thereafter his presentations changed and then this came the idea of relativity. Collectiveness is the point of existing, and lack of inherent existence. It’s almost like, you know, point of, what is the Stephen Hawking’s point called? Point of reference? No, not point of reference. He had something, I keep on forgetting that all the time. (weird beeping) What was that? Stephen Hawking’s sending message. (laughter)

(translation and discussion in Dutch)

1:35:41 No no no no. In other words you know, point where you cannot find this is it, where it is you know. Point of reference, no point of reference, doesn’t even call no point of reference, called something. You can keep on dividing, you cannot say, you never come to the end of this is it. You can still go on dividing. You know after the discovery of… yes he is about the Unification Theory but he also propose, he even keep on… he is the one who keep on saying that you never found it, whatever this is. He said whatever you found this is you still keep on dividing. He thinks, he believes, at the end of the Russian doll there will be one Russian doll. But right now nobody has ever found it, whatever, atoms and [1:36:50 unclear] and all this will still keep on dividing. There’s a name for this, I forgot. There’s a little title for that. Anyway, not a title of book, it’s a scientific viewpoint of… Huh? I forgot. I keep on forgetting that all the time. Anyway, so it is the Buddhapalita’s idea. It is the Buddhapalita who, that since then Tsongkhapa is the one who’s going to say there’s no end for dividing. The east never ties to west, the famous idea comes from them. It is Tsongkhapa who begin to realize east will never tie to west, no matter how small it may be there’ll be east side and west side of it. As long as you have that it’s become dividable. So as long as it’s dividable you’re not independent. So these are the points, important contribution on the wisdom points by Tsongkhapa. Anyway, so we have mentioned quite a lot on that and that’s about it for the visions he reported(? 1:39:33). And there’s after visions, too. That’s okay now, anyway. Anything else? Anybody has any questions? Yes, here you go.

1:39:45 Question (asked in English). If you die it’s said that the subtle mind is going on so if I think about something which cannot be divided it should be this subtle mind because death is the one who is going on and on all the time.

1:40:13 Rimpoche. So do you.

1:40:14 Question (cont’d). Yes, then you get this idea, okay now I’m [1:40:20 unclear] and my body’s going on or my body’s going away, but when I die there is still some kind of subtle me…

1:40:30 Rimpoche. That’s right, subtle you…

1:40:32 Question (cont’d). …that is going on and isn’t that the thing that is inherent existence?

1:40:38 Rimpoche. Very good question.

1:40:42 Question (cont’d). That’s what I wonder for 2 or 3 years already. (laughter)

1:40:48 Rimpoche. Good question. The answer to that is no. You know why? Because Descartes said no, it’s not good enough. That is also dependent arising, and particularly subtle is also dependent arising. Not solid one. It’s even dividable and that’s why it’s not inherent existence. It’s really true, it’s also dividable. No matter how subtle it is, it is still dividable. There’s probably some kind of subtle pull, that mental part is also dividable, that also depend on the conditions. So this is good thinking and then you think if you have to divide after that, there will probably be nothing left and that’s what it is. That’s what it is. There is nothing left. That’s what it is.

1:43:03 Question (cont’d). Does the subtle body still exist or…. [inaudible]

1:43:12 Rimpoche. Maybe a form, whatever that mind is dividable in that, whatever it is, you know? So in other words you’re never going to find it, that end something to catch and see, this is me. So what you do when you have this phrase, body and mind together, I’m here. And that is good enough, to be here. And that’s the one who makes mistake, that’s the one who does good things, that is good enough. and when you try to see which one is this one, which one is this one, the head or the tail, the face, the heart or whatever, then it disappears. Everyone is no, no, no! But the combination, just combination is, that combination goes deeper and smaller and deeper and smaller and even the last subtlest one, even has that combination. So there is influence of others. It’s not independent. That’s how it works. If it’s independent then you don’t depend. When you don’t depend you don’t have others influence, then it won’t change, then it’s solid, permanent. That’s how it words. But very good thinking.

1:46:05 Question or comment (cont’d) [inaudible].

1:46:24 Rimpoche. That’s good, so what else? If you don’t have many things, everybody’s watching the watch, so we can quit (laughter) Yes, really. So tomorrow we thought we will, what is it? Tomorrow we thought we will meet another two hours or something, 10 to 1 or 10 to 12 or whatever, see what the conditions are. So, well then thank you so much and we going to close a little earlier, that’s good, Saturday evening. But thank you coming, so many of you. So what else we to do? No mandala, just do dedication. Didn’t teach any, we had nice time to chit chat.

1:47:48 Translator with announcements.

end.