Archive Result

Soundfile 20090422GRJHNLDO (5)

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Netherlands

Topic Dependent Origination

Transcriber Eric De Vos

Date September 22, 2021

Begins with announcement in Dutch, Rinpoche begins the chanting singing until 0:24:40.1

[Rinpoche sets the motivation]

Kindly create a pure motivation as normally [0:24:47.3 hard to hear: ??”when travelling to hear teachings”??] and at least for the benefit of all beings I would like to attain the state of buddhahood, for which I like to listen to these teaching and develop buddhahood [unclear “in the dharma"??] and become buddha in one lifetime.

[0:25:04.9 brief translation 0:25:26.0]

And the teaching where we came up yesterday is up to the point that, that, establishing, establishing, establishing the ego ignorance combination of…. ego ignorance, whatever you call it, ego or ignorance, and that itself is as a source of creating a negative action, source of creating a negative emotions, which causes negative action, which created negative karma. And that functioning like their mind within the body. Body consciousness within the body.

[0:26:41.3 translation 0:27:07.6 ]

You know, when we talks like this, I don’t know what you got, what you people understood. I really don’t know. So after your group discussions today, perhaps I get more better feedback from the group leaders. I have no idea how much you are understanding. But the thing is this, when you saying, when we say this is root, and then if you deal with this, you don’t have ah, is much easier to deal. Like, when there is no fire.. when there is no wood, the fire cannot burn. Of if you wake up from the dream you can no longer dream. And there also I said, don’t work hard, work smart. So what do you get out of that?

[0:28:09.8 translation 0:28:47.1]

I don’t know what you [unclear “got in this”??], right? But what I am saying, what we’re saying, not I am saying, but what this teaching is saying, yes it is true, you have to deal with your negative emotions, like anger, hatred, and obsession, and all that. But it said most if you have to deal one by one, then no ending to it. If you working for hundreds of thousands of years, and still you be struggling. So, so, that is why it says, try to deal with the source, that is ignorance. So, once that is gone, and all of those will have to stop. Stop. It is like when you cut the tree from the root, you don't have to cut each branch. And you know if you keep on cutting a branch, and then that will cut the tree root. Even you cut the branches and it will grow again. So, just like that, it's the same. Deal at this level. That means work smart, don't work hard. Work smart. I hope you hear that. [translator, Yes]. No, I know you heard, but I hope... [Laughter]

[0:30:17.3 translation 0:30:56.0]

The whole this about this Ten Drel Töpa is nothing but dealing with ignorance. Overcoming, not overcoming, defeating the ignorance, and establishing the wisdom. And then sometimes it may be so detailed. Sometimes it may not be that detailed. And also way and how express is Buddha you're great, because you did this. Because you saw this. Because you understand this. Looks like you are praising Buddha but actually it giving the message to the individual, Buddha did that, so you should do that too. Buddha did this, we should do this too. So this is, mind you this is Ten Drel Töpa. It's a, it is very, very smart way of doing this

[0:31:56.4 translation 0:32:33.1]

Ahh, you know, so, so they also tells you the Buddha is an unexcelled teach.. master, because he talks about it, and the dependent origination. And these are extremely important statement, and I'm, I'm not sure how much we are biting in that, you know. It is important. I mean, I don't know what you think his unexcelled master because he talks about dependent origination. What do you understand out of that? And it is important to know. I hope these are the points where we get during the, the, whatever you have, discussion group, or whatever it is. [translator, Yes] Huh? [translator, discussion groups] So I hope these things will come out. And, ah, so then I'll have an idea what you are doing, you know. Otherwise either I am talking to, to a wonderful intelligence people like you, or am I talking to myself.

[0:33:58.1 translation 0:34:41.1]

And also we are talking about it, the essence. Essence means, you know maybe sometimes we use so much word, maybe you lose. Essence maybe here means, when we say empty, empty, empty, emptiness, emptiness, what it mean? Essence means, whenever you hear emptiness, emptiness, you should be hearing dependent origination, dependent, or interdependent as interdependentness. Essence of the emptiness is, um, dependent origination, and that is the ultimate understanding of Buddha's mind. When you understand dependent origination, the emptiness is one thing, not two separate. The moment we say the meaning of the emptiness is dependent origination, so you think about emptiness, and you think about the dependent origination, you know. So, if you think two, or even one within the another like a Russian doll, doll, that means it's not. What emptiness really means is dependent origination. What is dependent origination really means the, you, we use word essence. You have to, because looks like it two separate. But in other words, it is not two separate, it is one. On, it is really one.

If you ask me what is emptiness, I would have said dependent origination. If you ask me what is dependent origination, I would have said emptiness. So I think you have to get that clear for us first, otherwise, otherwise you be dancing around in between the words, you know. Set out. And you know, the essence of interde-, interde-, emptiness, essence of emptiness is, is, is, you know, dependent origination. And then in the mind of the individual it is two separate one, one inside the other one, or you know, if you get that...

[0:37:46.1 translation 0:38:57.7]

So, in order to show that, the next four verses, four verses, PHEN DZÄ KYÖ KYI, that is verse nine, ten, eleven, twelve.

9 PHEN DZÄ KYÖ KYI DRO WA LA

MEN PAI LE DU KA TSAL PA

TEN PAI NYING PO TONG PA NYI

NGÄ PAI GYU TSEN DA ME PA

10 TEN CHING DREL WAR JUNG WAI TSUL

GEL WA DANG NI MA DRUB PAR

THONG BA DI YI KYÖ KYI LUG

JI TAR KONG DU CHÜ PAR NÜ

11 KYÖ NI NAM ZHIG TONG PA NYI

TEN JUNG DÖN DU THONG BA NA

RANG ZHIN GYI NI TONG PA DANG

JA CHE THÄ PA-ANG MI GEL ZHING

12 DE LÄ DOG PAR THONG WA NA

TONG LA JA WA MI RUNG ZHING

JA DANG CHÄ LA TONG ME PÄ

NYAM NGAI YANG DU TUNG WAR ZHE

That is verse nine, ten, eleven, twelve express this. The verse nine to, to twelve express that.

[translator, Should I read that?] Yeah. [0:39:59.6 translator reads a verse in Dutch] Rimpoche interrupts 0:40:09.3] Right, so you don't need to read it, that's fine, that's.., I read in Tibetan because it is trans.. oral transmissions, reason, you... Because if I will, some people maybe think, why does he read in Tibetan? Nobody understood, it's oral transmission. [translator translates the explanation briefly through 0:40:39.4]

OK, so not is this talking about it? You know I am really going to focus on the Tibetan rather than umm, I may refer to. So, the first words

PHEN DZÄ KYÖ KYI DRO WA LA

MEN PAI LE DU KA TSAL PA

So, so, the Buddha who [pauses briefly] they call that benefit in the English. Benefit, ah benefit. But the Buddha who is helping all living beings, what you really did, is in order to help people, what you talk about it, essence of your teaching, that is emptiness. I'd rather go a little faster. Essence of your teaching, that is emptiness. To understand that you give various different reason, unequivalent reasons. Maybe that's enough.

[0:42:00.8 translation 0:42:21.8]

So, in other words give tremendous reasoning, saying what is dependent origination. The dependent origination is, dependent origination itself is emptiness. And many people cannot accept that. And that is not only, not only non-Buddhists, but even within the Buddhists, such as, such as, such as you know, four schools, two Hinayana schools, and within the Mahayana school there is also called the Mind Only school. These three, plus half of the Madhyamaka school is known as Materialist, heh, heh.

[0:43:45.3 translator specifies the two Hinayana schools in Dutch: Vaibashika and Sautantrika 0:44:22.3]

[Note: The three schools inferred here are Vaibhashika, Sautrantika, Chittamatra, and Svatantrika- Madhyamaka. The list as translated to Dutch did not include the specific name of the other "half of the Madhyamaka school" which is known as Prasangika-Madhyamaka.]

So, they could not understand the real essence of the Buddha's teaching. If they do so, they won't be Materialist. [brief translations inserted here and there] Why they are called Materialist, I mean there is a lot of reasons why they are called Materialistic, because when they establish it self, and they will establish it self something other than emptiness. That's why, that's why it's called Materialist. So the, that's really covers the second verse, right? Then the third verse, the third verse is covered. Third verse says.

[0:45:31.8 Rimpoche recites a verse that is not among verses nine, ten, eleven, twelve. I wonder whether he is reciting from the same version of text I have here on my screen.]

The third and fourth verse goes together.

[Note, it would appear he is referring here to verse 3 and verse 4 out of the four verses 9, 10, 11, 12, so that would be verses 11 and 12 of the text. As we see below at 0:52:05.10, when he recites from verse 12 it appears he is again using the same text we have here]

So, the Buddha, you, when they say you, they referring to Buddha. You Buddha, when you really see the essence of phenomena, and their reality, you saw nothing but essence of emptiness is interdependent origination. And because when you see the essence of emptiness is the essence of dependent origination then lack of intrinsic existence in reality, and able to function =as normal functioning are not contradicting. In one person, at the one time, the simultaneously, not one this and one that, you know, that thing happens here and then change, something else happen, no. Simultaneously you see the lack of inherent existence yet functionable together. Same time, without contradicting each other, instead complementing each other together. And, so, that's what, let's that go first.

[0:47:25.9 translation 0:48:17.4]

Again, it's emphasizing, it is emphasizing, you know, like in the Heart Sutra we say, form is empty, emptiness is form, form is no other than emptiness, emptiness no other than form. So, that is this. Form is dependent origination. That itself is emptiness. Emptiness itself is that form. That form. So there is no two separate. One. Functioning looks contradicting, because empty is not there how can you find it? Looks contradictory, but is not contradictory. It is empty, because otherwise we may think, why are you calling it empty, because it's not empty, it's there. So, if you think it is there, we are going to extreme of existentialist. Because it's not there, because it is just terms and conditions, just right, so functioning. Functioning. So you can't say it's there. It is empty, it is not there. Yet it is functioning, functioning. Functioning means form is form, does the form's work. Sound is sound, does the sound's work. You can hear it, you can relieve, you can enjoy, you can hate it, you can do all that. So, so this is functioning in one thing together, simultaneously. So, no separation between these two. It is one thing.

0:50:34.9 translation 0:52:05.6]

So the next verse [verse 12] tells you

DE LÄ DOG PAR THONG WA NA

means when you go, ah, ah, where else? When one sees the opposite, opposite of what we said just now, opposite, if you sees the opposite then empty becomes empty. Empty is [unclear isn't??]nothing. Cannot function. Cannot do anything. Nor function in emptiness. It is functioning, then, and then, then it is not empty. So that is what going to see, because in our normal sense, that's what we get. How can it function, because it is empty. How can I put more water, because it is empty. The bottle is empty. Right? So this is normal. Nothing wrong with this, but from that angle we will look in everything else in that manner. If we do so then we are losing the fundamental facts that is, that's why we use word like, lack of inherent existence. Lack of, you know, solidness, and all these are somehow we try to adjust with our mind. Ah, and also we say emptiness is not nothingness. Emptiness is full of, full of, full of information.

Even that, the cardiologist [0:54:09.9], the Dutch cardiologist. [note: he may be referring to Pim van Lommel's work on near death experiences, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_van_Lommel and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience] even he says, scientifically, what he found out about about the separation between this body and consciousness. And within the consciousness he, he talks about the empty, the empty is full information. And all this, all this, he is not a spiritualist, he is not a Buddhist. He is a scientist, and he is talking about he is, he is talking about within his own scientific discover the void, empty, has full of information. It is empty and void, but full of information. Didn't he say that? [translator, yes he did]. He did say that, right. He got a power point on that too. So he is telling that empty it's talking about that emptiness is full of information. And, so what Buddha is saying, that empty has all functioning. And that empty is no separation than that of existence. He is not saying that, he is not reached to that yet. He sees the lot of information and full of information in that void. And the Buddha is saying, not only you have full of information, but you are, you're full in there. All of them in there. So this is, I mean this is amazing how these things working, you know I mean the reality is, reality is, reality is the, the end result of what the scientific development and spiritual person's meditative development will tell it together. We tell it together at the end. That's, that's what's going to happen. This is what this is talking about it, that is what the scientist, Dutch scientist, talking about it, And at the end it's going to come together, whether you come, came through the meditative, spiritual practice underlying learning, analyzing, or scientific experimenting, ..menting thing. Whether you are going to get that to the enlightenment or not, finding fact of reality will come together.

[0:57:05.8 translation 0:59:40.5]

So if you, if you reverse that. Or, when you sees opposite of that, then let's say, me. Me. So then there is a problem, is me cannot be empty and functioning. So it has to be either. Either functioning or not existing. Cannot be both. Or can be not both. Can be not functioning, can be not existing, that can be. So, if that is, if that becomes case, then, and then it's a huge misunderstanding of me and my nature. So, that's why this particular verse says, one falls into the dreadful abyss. Abyss is street, or what? [audience, hole, empty hole, Grand Canyon]. Empty holes, OK, Grand Canyon, dreadful. So that is what is saying. Because you know, because me, if I cannot put me, empty and functioning together, then either one, or not both.

[1:01:23.5 translation 1:01:59.8]

So now, the logic what they use is, Buddha as base. And those who understood you, and if it's empty and then functioning, is going against each other not possible, and all of those people have not understood what you are talking about it, because what you're saying is, if you see the emptiness, the real meaning of emptiness is interdependentness, real meaning of interdependentness is emptiness, you call them Middle Path. You call them perfect path. Middle here is free of two extremes, center path. So you call this center path. Path. And you say if didn't, if anyone doesn't see this, you are falling either extreme.

[1:03:08.6 translation 1:03:49.0]

Why? It is simple, because dependent origination. If you are dependent, you cannot be independent, because you are dependent. Dependent and independent are two opposite forces. And if you are inherent existence, you have to be independent. If you are dependent you cannot be independent. If you are not independent you can't be existent. You can't be existent, because your existence is dependent. Now here there is a little language problem too. They say if you are dependent you cannot be existent. It is difficult to establish. So you can be existent, you can be, be, you can be, can be, dependent, both. If you think in English sense. Right? Right, you can be, can be. [translator, OK] the pillar is existence [translator, yes] but it's dependent translator, yes sure] because it dependent h..its particles and whatever is in there, whether it is wood, or steel, or whatever it is, dependent, it can be both. But what it really meant is, is if it is existence, it has to be dependent. If it is dependent it is not an independent. If it is not an independent, it cannot be inherent existence. That's why they use word inherence in English. But in Tibetan they don't use the word inherent, they use the word, naturally existent. Yeah, naturally is even better, naturally. If you are naturally existing, then you can't, then you don't have to depend on anything. [translator, yes]. If you are depending on something, you naturally don't exist. So these two are opposite. So that is why, dependent origination becomes powerful reasoning, because it indicated clearly, clearly, not independent. Did you hear me?

[1:06:31.9 translator 1:07:55.6]

That brings next two lines, half of the sentence.

[verse? Rimpoche next reads the first two lines of verse 13]

DE CHIR KYÖ KYI TEN PA LA

TEN JUNG THONG WA LEG PAR NGAG

Therefore in your teaching, seeing dependent origination is, how do you say this? [translator, hailed] Hailed, praised, best. [jokes with audience] Praised, the best, hailed. So, so, sort of hallelujahed. [1:08:39.7 R. interrupted by someone telling him he is now at verse 13, he says he knows it, repeats first line of verse in Tibetan, and teases, "you didn't follow"? Rinpoche chuckles] So, so then, then, therefor, in your teaching, seeing dependent origination is hallelujah. [Audience chuckles] Honestly.

[1:09:12.3 translation 1:09:29.8]

Why, why, why, why? Because if you understand the emptiness is the meaning of... meaning, and again that is whatever language you can use, emptiness means [possible misspoken: independent origination. Dependent origination means emptiness. And if, when you get this, you begin to understand what Buddha's thinking about. [brief translation] So, DE CHIR KYÖ KYI TEN PA LA. Therefor in the teachings of the Buddha. So when they say, teachings, with the plural, there's two. Informational aspects of the teaching, and the spiritual development aspects of the teaching. When you talk about Buddha's teaching, Buddhism. Buddhism, ism is the word that came up later. But the real what is what is Buddha's teaching, two. Informational aspects and spiritual development aspects. There again, there again, comes out two separate, but again is one. Comes out two separate because we receive it separately. First we receive as information, information, and that information can be very foreign in our ear. Completely foreign. However, if we keep on thinking and analyzing, and meditating, then that information becomes reality to the individual person. Reality in the sense it is not brainwashed, but in the sense it's becomes a real thing, real thing. When you see that as a real thing, and then it's called spiritual development. First comes as information. Second comes as spiritual development, received by us. And that's why we separate. However, in reality, when you becomes the ultimate reality, the information becomes the truth.

[1:12:50.7 translation 1:14:04.1]

Why this considered the best teaching of Buddha? Because one logic solves two problems together. That is two extremes. [brief translation] So that's why it called the essence of teaching. That's why Heart Sutra considered Heart Sutra, not just sutra, Heart Sutra. [brief translation]

OK, Maybe we can, is that coffee time, right, I am sorry, I went a little over, thank you