Archive Result

Soundfile 20090422GRJHNLDO (6)

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Netherlands

Topic Dependent Origination

Transcriber Eric De Vos

Date December 12, 2021

Begins immediately at the beginning. Was there a portion of the teaching that was not recorded at the beginning of Session Six? The topic does follow directly from where Session Five ended.

One of the reasons that we use these two words here, that is, [from verse 13]

Therefore in your teaching

Seeing dependent origination is hailed;

One, the one reason we use, because it sort of kills two birds by one stone, we use that. Another reason is, that is true because this is declared as path that buddhas like it. Remember in that Three Principle path, Three Principle root text, they say path that pleases buddhas. [brief translation] Path that pleases Buddha, we put all three different principles, right? We put one for the renunciation, we put one for compassion, and we put for wisdom. So, in this case it is wisdom is the one we are talking about it. So it says, where did Buddha say, how come, how do you know this is the path that pleases Buddha. So, it quotes from the sutra, whoever sees dependent origination, that person sees Buddhadharma. So, I mean, it is really very strange. You have to think about it, because Buddhism, as I said, ism is the language, it is very produced by snobbish British. It is not really neither the Buddha nor Buddha's disciples, no one says is Buddhism. Ism is the word, you know, hundred years after, you know hundreds of years after, British produces. But the language what they use earlier is Dharma. Dharma they use language Dharma. So even in Tibet, Tibetan, very few places you see [inna??? 0:03:22.2] Inna refers to those who have taken refuge to Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Inna. But everywhere it uses chö ??[0:03:34.5] which is Dharma. So even this sutra says whoever sees dependent origination sees the Dharma.

[0:03:46.8 translation 0:04:42.8]

And, um, there are Nagarjuna's quotations, which is very long, I am not go. But there is Chandrakirti. Chandrakirti says [0:04:55.4 in Tibetan...Ten chen ten du rigpa di ni tang gye..... ] In this they wrote one word [Tibetan] Chandrakirti says, because of the logic of dependent origination cuts all wrong understandings. [brief translation] [a lot more Tibetan 0:05:55.8 to 0:06:19.5] Ah, this must be misprinted. [more Tibetan, throughout this section] Jamyang Lama Tsongkhapa says that one [more Tibetan] So those who have seen the interdependent origination, Buddha calls these are, this is great wisdom meditator, concentrator. And also, [0:06:55.5 more Tibetan] this is the best, the best person, best yogi who can sit above all pure moralities.

[0:07:09.0 translation 0:07:35.5]

Is the substituting [substitute of?] Buddha, Buddha, and so Buddha praise it a lot. That it is what Tsongkhapa says. Praising here, if you look it, you know, the, the, the wisdom meditator, it is the concentration. And one who sits above all morality is the morality aspects of it. So, it is concentrated on wisdom makes the wisdom concentration morality, all three. All three best in that person, is it becomes that way.

[0:08:29.4 translation 0:09:02.3]

Ok, so now you probably wanted know, who you talking about it? What do you mean? Who you talking about it? How do I know? Know. I understand that. [brief translation] So it says here, when one person, you know the, not the word meaning, if I say the meaning, it becomes word meaning. When I say dependent origination when you try to, when that individual try to think about, not think about, think on dependent origination, then that person should be able to see emptiness. And that person whenever he, it appears dependent origination to the person, the person should also, the emptiness should also appear to that person effortlessly. Without, you know, sort of you, you, you appearing dependent arise, dependent origination, to you. At that moment, and that time, the person should also perceiving or appearing the emptiness, without putting extra efforts. Right now, you know, you heard a lot for the day and a half here, meaning of the dependent origination is empty, meaning of emptiness is dependent origination. You keep on hearing, because of understanding follow that word.

[0:12:01.5 ]

So whenever you perceive dependent origination you try to think about it emptiness. Or you may forget, say, what, what is that of, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember, that is the emptiness or something. What the Buddhists call it, emptiness, or someday you may come up in that way, and that is coming up because with all your efforts and with your, the understanding followed by the so many times you heard, for day and a half, in English, in Dutch, you know, you heard a lot in Tibetan doesn't make sense anyway. So, you heard be following that understanding with effort you try to get that picture. But when you reverse that, the moment the dependent arise, dependent origination appeared to you, I'm talking about mind, you know, the nobody comes out said I am dependent origination. That not going to appear that way. But the moment it comes in that way, and then effortlessly thinking, effortlessly sees the emptiness, vice versa, both ways.

[0:13:38.4 translation 0:14:53.4]

When that happens, this is the sign that you have developed, I don't know whether I should say understanding, or maybe even realizing the essence of dependent origination is emptiness. [brief translation] Also, when you, when the dependent origination appears, then simultaneously, effortlessly, emptiness, lack of intrinsic existence is popping up in your mind. [brief translation] In your mind, popping up in your mind is the what it meant, appearance eliminates existence. Remember in Three Principles, [brief Tibetan] appearance eliminates existence, and empty eliminates nihilist. Eliminates nihilist, remember? This is what appearance eliminates. Appearance eliminates empty, oh, [catches himself] existence, [laughs] [brief translation]

[0:18:03.6]

And the, vice-versa, the moment you see emptiness, emptiness, then simultaneously you realize every existence is just labeled, you know, labeled by perceiving mind, labeled by perceiving mind. Again, just like when you see empty effort.. when you see existence effortlessly you see empty, so here when you see empty, effortlessly you see, see, it is existing, functioning, is by labeling. You know the word what we use is [tong ta ?? Tibetan 0:19:00.6] the, the mind labeled on the right basis, and then it functions, so, you know, it functions. This is interesting, if mind does not labeled or acknowledge, then it doesn't function, and that is why this famous Zen talk, when there is nobody else, the tree falls, no mind acknowledges, did tree really fall or not fall, that issue is rising out of this. .

[0:19:39.6 translation 0:20:22.1]

The moment I say label, again our mind will move, name something, you know, no, no. Whatever we are saying labeling, is trying to indicates nothing there, nothing there. It doesn't mean is nothing there, it is just functionable, right. So, so it is sort of cutting down a lot of strong existence. So that is why using the word such as, just labeling. Not labeling alone. Labeling indicates a lack of intrinsic reality, lack of solidness. That is why it is called labeling. Otherwise labeling means label you put either here or, or you name. I mean that is what it is, it does not mean that at all.

[0:21:38.6 translation 0:22:17.6]

On there when that happens, then it is the emptiness eliminates the extreme nihilist. [brief translation]. Then remember in the Three Principles it says word at the end there says de tse ta wey che pa dzog pa lak. [end line of Verse 12] Then you have completed analyzing the perfect view, or something like that, I am paraphrasing. Doesn't matter. Not sure what book you look, but doesn't matter, de tse ta wey che pa dzog pa lak [brief translation 0:23:04.2] Probably the last sentence [translator, Yes I have it here] Second last [translation 0:23:16.9] This particular, the whole verse, [actually Verse 13 here]

Zhen yang nang wey yo tar sel wa dang

tong pey me tar sel zhing tong pa nyi

gyü dang dre bur char wey tsül she na

tar dzin ta wey drok par mi gyur ro

Right? So then they says, and then, then, huh, maybe, maybe it's not right, maybe, what is it? Ummm, [long pause] What is word above that? [Translator speaks, Rimpoche laughs] How many books you have to have? [Audience member speaks, Nang wa ten drel..] Uh? All right

Nang wa ten drel lu wa me pa dang

tong pa ke len trel wey go wa nyi

ji si so sor nang wa de si du

da dung thub pey gong pa tok pa me

Nam zhik re jog me par chik char du

ten drel mi lur tong wa tsam nyi ne

nge she yül gyi dzin tang kün jik na

de tse ta wey che pa dzog pa lak

That's that, that's what Nang wa ten drel lu wa me pa dang, that particular verse Nang wa ten drel lu wa me pa dang. The appearance and dependence reliable, and empty and what is it? Empty tong pa, empty, not, cannot be pointed out, cannot be say it. And as long as these two separated, you have not understood Buddha's teaching, right? So, we went with all that.

[Note: the transliteration used here is from

THE THREE PRINCIPLES OF THE PATH

Lam gyi tso wo nam sum

Je Tsongkhapa (Lozang Dragpa) [1357-1419]

Translation Jewel Heart, version August 6, 2002

as found in Gelek Rimpoche's "Three Principles Brief Explanation", "The Three Principles of the Path,

A Concise Commentary", Jewel Heart Transcript 2006 ]

[0:25:18.5]

Nam zhik re jog me par chik char du Once time, once when can do simultaneously together, without separating. If you see empty, see the, the existence. If you see the existence you see the empty. And then you have completed the analyzing of the reality of our existence. You know, if you say, if you say you have completed view, so what? So what? But you know, but if you say reality of our existence, our life, our existence, then means something. The language is something very strange. Very strange, especially in this level. If you say, view, so what, if you have good view, that's fine. If you don't have good view, so what? Right? But if you say the reality of my life, then it means something else. [0:26:32.8 recites a verse in Tibetan]. Ok, so then I think that is what this one, you know. In the Three Principle Path what they're saying, and whatever here saying, it comes together. And one clarifies the meaning other much more. And like over here it's clearly clarifies that particular verse at the, at the Three Principles.

[0:27:09.9 translation 0:28:18.6]

So, over here it says, Ten nyi tong pa...??? [0:28:28.2 Tibetan] So, this is what it meaning. Emptiness is essence of interdependentness. You know, that's what it meant. But there are things that you can't express by one sentence, one word, but even, even one page. So, what we have to understand is this. [brief translation].

And then it says, generally appearance eliminates extreme of nihilist, and emptiness eliminates existentialist. [brief interruption] It is common from non-buddhist school to half of the Madhyamika, the Prasangika, not Prasangika, the other one. [Translator suggests Svatantrika] Svatantra, up to the Svatantra it is the same common, everything all same. However, in Prasangika, this is uncommon thing. When we say this is uncommon in Prasangika, we are talking about it, people who are reaching at the last level of the analyzing, but not to everybody.

[0:30:23.4 translation 0:31:29.5]

So I hope we do have some understanding of when we say essence of emptiness is dependent origination, essence of dependent origination is emptiness, I do hope you have some understanding. [brief translations interspersed going forward] If not, then the appearance and empty become completely separate. Two different things. We are talking about the to the mind of individual. When we are talking to the mind of individual, we are talking about the meditation. We are not talking about it anything else. When this is totally, totally, totally meditation we are talking about it. I understand it is a little difficult in the West to think this as meditation, because you are so used to it, meditation means sit down and keep your backbone straight, and any thought comes, peel it off, peel it off, peel it off. You know meditation is always two, remember, concentrated and analytical.

The analytic is the analyzing. And that is very, it is not that strange in the Western culture. Because analyzing is very, very, part of Western culture. Everywhere you talk, everybody does analyzes. The doctors analyzes the disease and sicknesses of the people. The lawyers analyzes the case, and where the weaknesses, and where is the strength is. Administrators analyzes your organization. The accountants analyze the account. Right! That is analyzing. Everybody else, even the person who cleans, using the vacuum cleaner, and cleans, and that person analyzes which is the easiest and [unclear word 0:35:12.7] to do. And that is very common in Western culture. But yet, when you bring that on the meditation level, and you think it is something very crazy. But, I mean I just don't get it.

[0:35:33.8 translation 0:36:21.3]

Remember [Note: Rimpoche quotes from Lines of Experience, I don't know whose translation]

TSE CHIK SAM TEN TSAM LA KOR WA YI

TSA WA CHÖ PAI NÜ PA MA THONG ZHING

ZHI NE LAM DANG DREL WEY SHE RAB KYI

JI TSAM CHE KYANG NYÖN MONG MI DOK PE

So, TSE CHIK SAM TEN TSAM LA KOR WA YI, TSA WA CHÖ PAI NÜ PA MA THONG ZHING

In that Lines of Experience it says TSE CHIK SAM TEN TSAM LA KOR WA YI. Just simple concentration doesn't have a power to cut the root of samsara.

ZHI NE LAM DANG DREL WEY SHE RAB KYI, JI TSAM CHE KYANG NYÖN MONG MI DOK PE So, without concentration, the wisdom alone cannot cut the negative emotions. Right?

YIN LUK PU TAK CHÖ PEY SHE RAB DE

YO ME ZHI NE TA LA KYÖN NE NI

THAR DREL U MEY RIK PEY TSÖN NÖN GYI

THAR DZIN MIK TANG TAM CHE JIK CHE PEY

So this few verses after that

YIN LUK PU TAK CHÖ PEY SHE RAB DE

What is the reality really is, to understand that, that wisdom. you know. And remains on the focused causes of shinay, or the concentration. And then, you know, [mumbling verse, inaudible 0:37:58.0]

THAR DREL U MEY RIK PEY TSÖN NÖN GYI

By the powerful weapons of the two extremes free, of central Madhyamika weapon [logic], and then destroyed all perceiving points of existence, right? So you have the book there, so read it. So that whole thing means..

[0:38:33.6 translation 0:39:13.1]

So, all those you have taking the causes, those you have studied, and all of them comes together. It is nothing. When you talk about it, it looks very strange and difficult ones. But when you think and they all went through with this, you know.

[0:39:39.6 translation 0:39:56.9]

So, what I am saying is I am getting lost here now. And if one sees appearance and empty two separate, then you are wrong. And, how you are wrong? This half of the number thirteen, two words [verse 13 of Ten Drel Töpa].

DE YANG KUN TU ME PA DANG

RANG ZHIN GYI NI YÖ BÄ MIN

"That to, not as utter non-existence, nor as an intrinsic existence". Right? And then next verse [14] completely.

TÖ ME NAM KÄ ME TOG ZHIN

DE NA MA TEN YÖ MA YIN

NGO WÖ DRUB NA DE DRUB PA

GYU DANG KYEN LA TOB PA GEL

So, I think that six lines talk about that.

[0:41:18.0 translation 0:41:51.5]

So, what they are talking about it, they are talking about it, the meaning of the emptin... Oh, I use the word meaning again... The emptiness and existence is one, what we are seeing as one is not the point of all phenomena as not existing, nor it is a point of phenomena are not depending on, you know, they.. [reciting Tibetan 0:42:34.4]

[0:42:38.2 translation 0:43:18.2]

It is not that every phenomenon is not depending on anything. If it is not depending on anything, it will like that of flower of sky, right? I should read that English a little bit so I can talk myself easier. It says, "non-contingent is like the sky flower". Non-contingent, if it is not depend on anything then it is like a sky flower. There is no sky flower, right? [brief translation ends 0:44:19.8]

[Rimpoche recites in Tibetan, I do not know the source] There is nothing that is not dependent, not dependent, and why there is no sky flower? Because, there is nothing that is not dependent. Everything, whatever is there, is all dependent. So, what does that telling us? That telling us the problems if you have appearance and empty separated, then you get all these problems. [brief translations interspersed] If things exist through their essence, they are dependent on cause and condition, for their existence is the contradiction. So, when it is dependent on cause and condition, then, you know not depending is contradiction. I mean, that's you don't need to talk much. So, the idea what they are talking about it, dependent origination, depending on part and parcel, or cause or conditions. So, what they are talking is, maybe I don't how much I am communicating to you, I am not very sure. Maybe make it easier in that way, and the first two lines that we have here is telling us, what they try to establish, they try to established, lack of inherent existence is the natural, it's not [that] it is not-existence.

[0:47:23.0 ]

The reasons how it's established its lack of inherent existence is, it is because it is dependent origination, and not not-existing. [brief translations interspersed] So what is saying is, every phenomena is, every phenomena that you deal with it, every thing, whatever it is. But in the way and habit of saying the crops, like the rice or the wheat, or whatever, the crops. That is the famous king of logic says the crops truly does not exist, because it is dependent origination. So that is what this word is showing. Also showing is there is nothing really, there is nothing really exist without dependent, either cause/condition or part/parcel. Never exist, like that of sky flower. What this showing is, again, what this showing is, if it is dependent origination, then is exact opposite of intrinsic existence. So, it's by saying that it also shows, if it is intrinsic existence then it is exact opposite of dependent origination. So making that clear to us repeatedly, again and again, is the important point here.

[0:50:59.2]

So, maybe that much may be enough. So, you know the idea of appearance and empty combining together becomes very important point. Important, I am not saying important point to understand emptiness. Not only that. [brief translations interspersed] And then when you get to the level of enlightenment it is called union, right? Union of appearance and existence. Union of two truths. [translator asks, quizzically, "appearance and existence?", Rimpoche responds, "Yes".] You may think of the union of male and female, you may think the union of illusion body and clear light. And illusion body is the essence of the appearance, clear light is the essence of emptiness. [Rimpoche asks translator, "why you so strange about it?", translator responds, "Well you said appearance and existence", Rimpoche says, Oh!, appearance and empty, sorry, sorry, OK."]

[0:53:04.5 translation 0:53:32.0]

So this is a sort of little struggle here, struggle, but it's worthwhile. It is the essence of the sutra and essence of tantra. [brief translations interspersed] No wonder that's why it's called wisdom. OK, so I think we'd better finish it off a little more.

DE CHIR TEN NÄ JUNG WA LÄ

MA TOG CHÖ GA YÖ MIN PÄ

RANG ZHIN GYI NI TONG PA LÄ

MA TOG CHÖ GA ME PAR SUNG

RANG ZHIN TOG PA ME PAI CHIR

CHÖ NAM RANG ZHIN GA YÖ NA

NYANG NGEN DÄ PA MI RUNG ZHING

TRÖ KUN TOG PA ME PAR SUNG

The two other half of the fifteenth, no, not two other, up to the fifteenth. Fifteenth is easy, "Therefore since no phenomena exist other than origination through dependence, no phenomena exist other than being devoid of intrinsic existence," that's what you taught."

Rang zhin, then the sixteenth.

RANG ZHIN TOG PA ME PAI CHIR

CHÖ NAM RANG ZHIN GA YÖ NA

NYANG NGEN DÄ PA MI RUNG ZHING

TRÖ KUN TOG PA ME PAR SUNG

[translator reads the Dutch translation of verse 16.]

“Because intrinsic nature cannot be negated,

If phenomena possess some intrinsic nature,

Nirvana would become impossible

And elaborations could not be ceased,” you taught.

So, that particular part is telling us, this particular sentence telling us, this path of wisdom and compassion combination is the cause for us to establish two kayas at the result level. [0:56:12.0 brief translations interspersed] RANG ZHIN TOG PA ME PAI CHIR, “Because intrinsic nature cannot be negated, right? “intrinsic nature cannot be negated.. If phenomena are intrinsically exist, nothing can be negated. What does that mean? If it is intrinsically exist, nothing can change. If that so, first two noble truths, truth of suffering and truth of cause of suffering also intrinsically exist. If that is the case, intrinsically exist. If that is intrinsically exist, there is nothing to change. If there is nothing to change, then the suffering cannot be removed. Cause of suffering cannot be stopped. [0:57:55.4 translation 0:58:34.2] Yesterday we talked liberation is possible because it cause of the suffering have interruption. Because it is dependent arising. And if it is not dependent, if it's intrinsic, nothing to change. So liberation is not possible, four noble truth is not true, the suffering is permanent, you know, cause of suffering continue. So the two positive truths, the truth of path and cessation can never be exist, because it is intrinsic.

[0:59:26.5 translation 0:59:58.8]

So that's why if the "phenomena possess some intrinsic nature, Nirvana would become impossible. Or elaborations could not be ceased". So these are the faults if you say, if it's intrinsic. You can't say some are intrinsic, some are not intrinsic, you can't say that. If it's intrinsic it's intrinsic. So, then the next verse will go, "because of that statement, no one can accuse you".

DE CHIR RANG ZHIN NAM DRAL ZHE

SENG GE-I DRA YI YANG YANG DU

KÄ PAI TSOG SU LEG SUNG PA

DI LA SU YI GONG PAR NU

Therefore who could challenge you?

You who proclaim with lion’s roar

In the assembly of learned ones repeatedly

That everything is utterly free of intrinsic nature?

[1:02:14.6 translation 1:02:25.0]

So, what they are talking about it, if it is intrinsically existence, then samsara can't be, nirvana can't be. Anything, even going and coming, all of them, every moment cannot fit in. Because intrinsic reality, you know, intrinsic means intrinsic. Why they are talking about it, the lion's roar repeated? That is Buddha's proclamation. Proclaiming the base, path, result, all of those of each practitioner's. Everyone has a base, path, and the result. If that is not there, its practice is not right. Because every practice has to have an end, the result. In this case, nirvana. So nirvana is not possible, so purpose of the practice to get rid of suffering, the samsara, the sufferings cannot be to get rid of it, because they are all intrinsic. And that is why Buddha proclaiming, repeatedly with the lion's roar, saying it is not intrinsic. So, you know, so the change can bring.

[1:04:23.8 translation 1:05:11.9]

So, therefor now intrinsic and because of this that has been established, like the next verse, eighteen.

That there is no intrinsic existence at all

And that all functions as “this arising

In dependence on that,” what need is there to say

That these two converge without conflict?

I think it be easier to do this way, and the nineteenth.

TEN NÄ JUNG WAI GYU TSAN GYI

THAR TA BA LA MI TEN ZHE

LEG SUNG DI NI GÖN KYÖ KYI

MA WA LA NA ME PAI GYU

"It is through the reason of dependent origination

That one does not lean towards an extreme;"

That you’ve declared this excellently is the reason,

O Savior, of your being an unexcelled speaker

[1:07:05.6 translation 1:07:17.7]

So, from the observation of Jamyang Lama Tsongkhapa himself, he said, this is extremely interesting, and that is twenty, and half of twenty one.

DI KUN NGO WÖ TONG PA DANG

DE LÄ DI TRÄ JUNG WA YI

NGE PA NYI PO PHEN TSUL DU

GEG ME PAR NI DROG CHE PA

DI LÄ NGO TSAR GYUR WA DANG

DE LÄ ME DU JUNG WA GANG

“All of this is devoid of essence,”

And “From this arises that effect” –

These two certainties complement

Each other with no contradiction at all.

What is more amazing than this?

What is more marvelous than this?

So, maybe we'll stop here. We're a little bit early, but I am not.. I have difficult of seeing the book, and neither Tibetan nor English is going like this, so we'll stop here.