Archive Result

Soundfile 20090501GRNLIWM (05)

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Netherlands

Topic Mind and Mental Faculties

Transcriber Carol Shuford

Date 10-15-2020

0:00:00.0 Thank you now, so, so, I um we were just now talking before we went for lunch. We were talking about mind, right? We just talked now about mind and mental faculty. Mental faculty is like a retinue of mind, but, then again the division is a very subtle division, an extremely subtle division, because mind and mental faculty has to have five points of similarity. I think we did mention that right? What are the divisions? Time, base, and focusing point, and aspect, that makes four, and the substance on what they function. Anyway there are five that have to be functioning together. Most important thing is base, time and focus point. Three. That makes the divisions very, very subtle. Very subtle. Dividing the mind, number one, mind has no physical shape, no color, nothing. Then, try to d…

0:02:08.7 [can’t make out]

0:02:13.9 the picture getting of the mind is difficult, plus you divide, plus you divide. It is a little difficulty, but still, it is within reach and it is doable.

0:02:28.2 [Dutch translation]

0:03:42.5 I also have to be careful not to talk too much. Okay, okay, then did we have that five? Okay..So now, there are fifty one mental faculties. First five, what we call that five omnipresent, five ascertaining, eleven virtuous, six root negativity, twenty secondary negativities, and four changes.

0:04:37.2 [dutch translation]

0:05:05.7 [Tibetan] These are the five omnipresence

0:05:20.6 [Dutch]

0:05:33.7 Omnipresence, meaning you know, if one of them is missing, if one of them is missing mind doesn’t function properly.

0:05:54.9 [Dutch]

0:06:06.5 I think this is something that we always have to observe ourselves.

0:06:22.2 [Dutch]

0:06:25.3 We have to observe ourself because we experience ourself, we observe ourself and we have to know our mind and what is happening. The first is sorwa [Tibetan]

0:06:55.0 Sorwa, we are talking Dutch right? Whatever it is. I don’t know what we are using here, but, ah,

0:07:02.6 [Translator says, ‘feeling, solwa. Feeling’] Feeling.. solwa, solwa, solwa. What I have here is ’feeling’. Okay.

0:07:33.0 [Tibetan] This particular synopsis says, when we say sorwa, it says that the meaning sorwa, sorwa, sorwa, the meaning of the sorwa is experience. It says.. What you mean experience…

0:08:02.7 [Tibetan] means whether you created negative karma or positive karma, whatever you have created, but the result you are experiencing and that is called sorwa.

0:08:18.9 Sorwa. So, now there’s a problem for this, it’s very strange problem you know. This is how they explain right: so then, when I said, the result of negative, positive karma, whatever you are experiencing so you are immediately think it is some kind of religious connotation. It is not. You know if you drink a sweet cup of tea, like the Indians do, right, a sweet cup of tea, and you experience the sweet, and that is sorwa. Whether it is the result of karma or not karma or good karma or bad karma or it doesn’t matter. That’s not the question. But the question is experiencing sweet is also sorwa nothing to do with religion. Maybe something to do, but not. Or you taste chili and the burning chili is also sorwa. It is sorwa. It is experiencing. It’s feeling. Everything, whatever, mental, physical, emotional, whatever we’re going through, through, that is the feeling. That is sorwa, we’re talking about it. The way this word explains, the result of good and bad karma, means always think like, because they’re talking about religious point. It very clearly says, “The purpose of giving this is to know the virtue and non-virtue and negative and good and bad karma”, but that is from their point of view. But when you are looking at it from word, ‘feeling’, means experiencing; experiencing good and bad. Experiencing good is supposed to be the result of good karma; experiencing bad is supposed to be the result of bad karma. That’s what they’re talking. In other words, in other words, they’re using the word of ‘feeling’ to express the Buddhist teaching, rather than the Buddhist teaching used to express the mental faculty. You know what I mean?

0:11:29.6 So, unless it is clear to you because you always think, you know, you don’t think of sorwa as feeling, but sorwa as karmic consequences, then it doesn’t become mind functioning. It becomes the spiritual functioning.

0:11:56.0 [Dutch]

0:13:02.5 Negative karma gives negative feelings that you will experience and positive karma gives positive feelings that the individual experiences are called ‘karma is definite’, right. It’s called karma is definite. And knowing that clearly is considered ‘perfect view’.

0:13:35.3 [Tibetan] …perfect view of the buddhism. Perfect view of Buddhism. And then those who believe opposite of that is called [?]

0:13:52.5 [Tibetan] This is called what we call that, ‘wrong view’. Yeah, something. When you are talking about wrong and right view, from that level, then it is difficult. You know one person doesn’t believe in karma is wrong view, we say, but from here when you look at it, you understand differently. Because seeing that as reliable for common thing is right view and opposite of that is wrong view. So that is the buddhist doctrinal connotation for the feelings but the feeling itself is the feeling. Buddhism not buddhist good and bad feeling.

0:14:55.0 [Dutch]

0:15:32.9 [Tibetan] Next word says, sorwa been divided into two, the physical aspects and the mental aspects, two,

0:15:47.2 [Tibetan] ..you know, that feeling of sorwa as the retinue of other mental faculties that is not the mind but all other five, eye, ear, nose, and all that, and they are known as feeling of the physical. They’re more physical than mind, right, because you see a nice body and you experience joy and happy. You see ugly body, and you experience, you see you know actually, when your eye consciousness sees, beautiful and ugly things, and probably you have positive feeling of mind enjoying the one of those feelings related to the mind. Because of that another feeling that goes the retinue of mind. So you may be getting two different sorwas because of one look one observing. Maybe, nobody said so, but it looks like it because when you see a beautiful thing you should get the joy physical aspects and eye is a little difficult to explain because an eye doesn’t touch, but then the touching is definitely, definitely, physically when you touch you get physical joy right, that physical joy brings a mental joy. So when you look at the touch, you probably get two, which clearly indicates the eye must be getting two, the ear must be getting two, nose must be getting two, although we don’t touch, although we don’t feel, but must be having something. Why? Because physical touch has it, we know, we feel, we recognize, otherwise why you touching your girlfriend, or boyfriend. Why?

0:19:10.0 That’s touch. Or you touch your wife or whatever. Touch. Similarly, eye, ear nose consciousness having the same thing. Maybe it is obvious. If you look in the..Maybe I’m talking too long.

0:19:42.1 [Dutch]

0:21:00.0 Even in the when you talk in the Vajrayana , the tantras, we divide it in four different tantras because of the level of joy. We talk about

0:21:14.8 [Tibetan] we looking at it, we’re smiling, smiling at each other, touching each other and on that level we talk. Which means looking, smile keeps you physical and mental joy. So that physical and mental joy what were talking about it is the sorwa or the feeling or the experience. So when you divide this physical aspects and mental aspects, although maybe one sorwa but we divide them into two because one connected with the physical, the other is connected with the mind. So whether you have two different sorwa or one sorwa with less extense or more intense, so, probably one has to judge within one individual. Then some people, when you have a lack of of that sorwa or feeling, both physical and mind, and ah, and ah, that happens right? When you have a lack of that sorwa, physical, physical because some people ..[?]

0:22:58.2…try to function, so certain physical aspects of the body doesn’t feel it. So you know, the diabetics they chop off the feet, not the feet, but the toes and fingers, or whatever. You know, whatever, yea, so, so that indicates, a lack of feeling which indicates lack of mental experience. Physical, mental, because physical is instrumental for stimulation for the mind. Vice versa, both ways, both ways function our experience, we see this. And any of our mind cannot have that is mind becomes incapable of experience. When the mind becomes incapable of experience, the mind does not function. So, that is the meaning of omnipresence of mental faculty. That’s how it’s effecting. Isn’t that funny? Or reality whatever.

0:24:35.0 [Dutch]

0:26:04.0 As we see any physical point where you cannot experience, which somehow seems to be part of functioning body, mind cannot experience anything seems to be part of right mind. So that is why omnipresent, really what is meant.

0:26:43.5 [Dutch]

0:26:57.4 Now there is a technical way of dividing the joy, medium and all that, that might not be necessary. So skip that two words here. So the next is the second mental faculty which we call

0:27:25.3 [Tibetan] duche. What happened here, duche. Discrimination.

0:27:35.2 [Dutch]

0:27:47.9 Discrimination. I’m not sure, what do you have in here?

[translator: ‘discernment’. Geshe Rabten has ‘discernment’. Gunter has ‘conceptualization’.]

I like Gunter, always better. Conceptualization.

[translator: Alex Berzin has ‘distinguishing’].

Distinguishing, not that much difference between conceptualization and distinguishing right? So, probably duche should be.. duche should be ..discrimination may not be right, you know why? Discrimination means

0:28:46.6 [Tibetan: so so tase yeshe]… the wisdom that makes separation. We call it discrimination, right? Then

0:29:00.2 [Tibetan; duche and so so tase yeshe] …has a huge difference. So it might not be right. So why don’t we follow the Gunter, that is conceptualize, conceptualize, yea. Duche.

0:29:21.6 [Dutch]

0:29:51.6 What does this do? This particular mental faculty do? Different than the earlier. Earlier we’re talking about from the experiencing point of view and this one is, in one way maybe, it is discriminating, in one way, but you know, sort of saying this is this, this is not this, this is that, that what they do. Whatever the individual mind, whatever the individual person wants to do. And someone within your mind, somebody’s responsible. Somebody’s taking responsibility, this is this, this is that. So something that you know, and when we’re looking, we say, ’mind’. But mind also mind there’s aspects of mind who are experiencing, there’s aspects of mind who are discriminating who, who, who gives you conceptualization of what it is, and all of those. So, this one the second, duche, which may call it conceptualization, that’s jump. So, so that’s why I said divisions are very subtle division, extremely subtle division. Need to know because if you know this, your mind will function better. If you don’t know it, leave it as everything’s mind, mind, mind. And then you know, it’s like a, it’s like, it’s like they’re responsible and then we don’t look who are they, who felt, what happened, we don’t see this. When we don’t see that, we don’t know what went wrong. When we don’t know what went wrong, then next time it’s bound to go wrong again. You can’t correct. So that’s why it’s important to see if something goes wrong. You need to see what went wrong. So, so individual felt it: good, bad, joy, happy, felt it, but don’t know what it is. Almost like someone who doesn’t know how to speak. Who doesn’t know how to speak, you know dumb person. So you give the sugar or chocolate to a dumb person.

0:32:46.3 And then you say, “Can you describe your feeling?”. And he will say “Ohhhh”, or something, “ohhh”, whatever, make noise or not make noise, you can’t figure out but there is something that’s exactly lack of duche, or the discrimination. Yes you feeling we know when you say”ahhhiy”, but what you’re feeling we can’t figure out because you only say, “ayyye”, and you have something, you know. So this is the lack of this particular mental faculty cannot tell you what it is. ‘Might not necessarily, discriminating, but at least tell you what it is, they could not. The mind, the principle mind is generally accepting. Doesn’t even know if it’s black or white, doesn’t even know if sweet and sour. But then here particular part of mind which somehow discriminates that. When that is not functioning and it becomes, “Ayyyyee”. We know “Ayyyee”, we know there’s something happening but we don’t know what. Similarly, child’s crying, we don’t know what it’s crying for. Or you know, or animal making noise whatever. For them a lack of expressing, expressing, but that will be exactly a lack of experience for the individual if you don’t have that. By knowing this, if you have a mental problem for yourself, then you have to find out, which are this five, which is I have lacked, I have lacking. Do I have feeling? Do I conceptualize or discriminate or what I’m doing. So that’s the best way, if you have a mental problem, you can treat yourself the best way other than another psychologist or psychotherapist treat you. Because you know they have to guess, they have to listen to you, keep on lecture you, keep on talking, keep on talking about it , and then yeah, you may make sense, not make sense and then the individual has to guess. But if you knew yourself and you don’t have to guess. You know for sure. Then you know what is lacking with you. That is how you can treat yourself better.

0:35:55.6 [Dutch]

0:38:10.9 So now we don’t have to go very detailed for the division and all that.

0:38:29.7 [Dutch]

0:38:37.9 So on duche, sempa. The next is sempa. This is same name as mind. The mind is called sem. This is also called sempa. It’s almost same name, same spelling even, but this one they put pa, so making slightly different. So what is this we’re talking about it? Did you already talk duche? You did so right?

0:39:26.4 [translator responds] [Tibetan]… I think I missed one important point. [Tibetan quote]..Duche, we’re discriminating or whatever you call it, conceptualization.

0:39:45.3 [Tibetan]

0:39:56.2 Duche does the specific aspects of, you know, this is this, this is this. Like when you are looking at the color, you see yellow. Then out of those five mental faculties, duche tells me this is yellow. Because specific quality which be labeled as, as, as yellow was conveyed to me by this mental faculty. Looking at this table cloth, cloth, what does my duche will do to tell me this is brocade, number one. From the core, from the material quality point of view. Do you know it tells me this is brocade. This is cotton. This is paper. So these are the duches’ job. Similarly, same time, duche tells me this is orange color designed with all these things. This specific point of identifying things: duche. Which of course, will be involved eye consciousness and duche, which is the retinue of eye consciousness along with mind. The mind consciousness and the retinue of that mind consciousness, combine them together, working them together, seeing them together. Otherwise, if eye consciousness sees something, if I’m blind eye, no, the color blind. If I’m color blind, you know my eye consciousness is incapable of telling me what that is because of the color blind. So the duche in the retinue of eye consciousness is incapable because color blind, but mind is capable of seeing it, knowing my eyes are color blind, yet, then begin the judgement and the retinue of this mind consciousness of that duche will make the job of this looks like that, it must be yellow, because I am yellow blind.

0:42:59.6 So therefore, this is not really red, not really the blue or something, but it must be yellow. And all that’s recognition, discriminating job is done. Duche in corresponded or in the retinue of mind consciousness at that moment. Where eye consciousness is looking at particular point.

0:43:39.0 [Dutch]

0:44:57.6 If eye consciousness sees the same thing together and ah then the mind consciousness doesn’t have additional responsibility. However, the mind consciousness is superior if the eye consciousness sees wrongly or any other eye or ear or nose or whatever, sees wrongly. Mind consciousness is capable of correcting that wrong perception and that shows the mind consciousness is superior and more important than that of the five other consciousnesses. They over power. So sort of, mostly like, see or something has mostly over to director. That’s how we see within our mind.

0:46:06.5 [Dutch]

0:46:33.9 Sometimes some people have functioning of all other five consciousnesses, same level. Sometimes some people have better functioning of something other than four others. Like the other day, we’re sitting, and when we’re saying the tune whatever it is, he can hear, “pom pom pom”, you know, but his ear consciousness functions more superior than than other consciousness. And ah within the ear consciousness, the corresponding feeling and the recognition is functioning superior because that can hear, “pom pom pom”, whatever, double, triple, whatever is going. The person who is saying can know, saying it, but hearing can because of this particular mental faculty functioning with the ear consciousness superiorly acknowledging by his mental consciousness. So this is how what we call it, ear turned, eye turned, you know. Artist who been eye turned sees right and wrong color mating. We don’t. Ah, the the the the. A musical person can hear better than what do we do. The ear turned this is the mental faculty that is working I believe. I’m not sure. Am I right? I think so. Yeah, you say yeah. He can hear “pom pom pom”, and I can’t, is exactly what it is.

0:48:54.0 [Dutch]

0:49:35.0 Sempa. [Tibetan]

0:49:44.3 Sempa that’s the mental faculty sempa makes the principle mind forcefully focus. Principle mind is like a big head cooked, you know, and then the sempa comes and makes us focus and you know, put attention focus force on it.

0:50:11.6 [Dutch]

0:51:02.8 Intention right? Some people you know, some people heard about it. It’s not very clear, good or bad you know? Something you heard, we say unintentionally heard or whatever. You know, so something very big happening, but not really know exactly what’s going on lack of this particular mental faculty.

0:51:37.5 [Dutch]

0:52:00.3 See if you taste coffee different.

0:52:03.1 [Dutch]

0:52:08.2 With all these three awarenesses.

0:52:12.1 [Dutch]

0:52:20.4 [end]