Archive Result

711

20130709GRAASR10

00:00 Chanting: Heart Sutra, Jewel Heart Prayers

0:19

Good morning and welcome to today’s session. It looks like we are half way through. So far I hope everything went smooth. I must admire the talent show they did yesterday. It was fantastic, really, everybody, great. Now, the motivation of bodhimind should always apply to everything, including our talent show and everything else. Each and every individual, whatever you do, you should have that motivation all the time. Everything you do, unless it is by nature non-virtuous, then you can’t change. Other than that, every neutral thing becomes virtue and positive karma. So that’s really nice. Even the bodhisattvas go to hell and even then that is a positive deed, because of the bodhimind. That’s why this motivation should apply all the time, for everything you do.

I don’t know whether you want to apply that when you go to the toilet, but everything else. Opening doors, closing doors, walking and everything applies. Buddha himself says that awareness of opening the door, closing the door, awareness of walking. But don’t take too long to walk, because we have a funny joke about that. Joke is joke and I won’t repeat it now. But awareness is always applicable. The Mahayana bodhimind emphasizes the benefit of me and all sentient beings. Don’t say, “For the benefit of all sentient beings except me”. Don’t do that. It is for the benefit of me and all sentient beings.

Particularly in times of retreat and teachings you should have that motivation 24 hours, whatever you do. Even having your meal, eating your food should have that. For the benefit of all sentient beings I would like to sustain my body, for which I will eat. I am not eating to get fat or for pleasure or to show off, but for sustaining my body, so that I help myself and all beings. Then of course, while I am saying that, I might as well mention: making offerings of the food. You don’t have to make a show-biz out of that. Sometimes people make show-biz. They make hand gestures in public, like in restaurants and so on. That might not be very nice. I don’t think it is called for. You look strange and we have all these wonderful materials. If you get a Vajrayogini initiation you get a red dot on your forehead and then you can go to a restaurant and make all these gestures before you eat and that will be interesting.

0:25

You don’t need the physical gesture. But offering must be done, because it is part of our refuge commitment. When I take refuge I say, “Whatever I eat or drink I offer first.” That is the commitment. So if you don’t do it, it is breaking our morality. That’s what it is. It is a small thing, but it is breaking that commitment. Making offering to the enlightened beings, to Buddha, Dharma and Sangha or the gurus, yidams, bodhisattvas, dakas, dakinis, dharmapalas, in short to all the objects of refuge. You multiply that food. If you are alone you can pick up the plate, raise it in the air or even if you want to raise it above your forehead and stand up and if that’s not good enough, you can stand on the table and do whatever you want to do. There is no problem. But when you are in the company of people and try to do that, it is not right.

As you know, Vajrayana practitioners do not offer anything without blessing. So at least there should be a short blessing of OM AH HUM from your heart.

0:27

You don’t have to say it from your mouth. You don’t have to make noise. And then make offerings to the Three Precious Jewels. That is important and disciplined. And there is nothing wrong, if you are drinking wine or other alcohol. You can definitely make wine or alcohol offerings. Don’t think, “Buddha must be a monk so I can’t give him wine.” You are not literally giving Buddha wine, right? So that’s why it is okay. Otherwise you don’t offer alcohol to those who have taken vows – not only monks - of not using any intoxications. If you give it to them you get additional downfalls, remember? Among us there are a number of people who have that vow, who don’t drink alcohol. You can ask, “Do you want to?” but otherwise it is a little odd. Other than that, don’t offer. Toe the rest of them, whoever they may be, the objects of refuge, you can definitely offer it. Nothing is wrong.

So this came all out of talking about the motivation of bodhimind. By now, if you don’t know bodhimind, it will be a little trouble. If you are still not clear, nothing is wrong. Put in a little more effort and try to see about bodhimind. It is easy to read about bodhimind in several transcripts. There is the Lojong Mind Training in Seven Points that has a good description about developing bodhimind and also the Lojong Mind Training in Eight Verses. There is Love and Compassion, the whole transcript is about that. And there are all the lam rim transcripts, like Odyssey to Freedom, where it is quite short. In the long lam rim you find more detail in Volume 4. I want you to have some easy references. If you want to have a concise explanation, read Odyssey to Freedom. If you want to go more in detail go into the longer lam rim. Then there are also shorter explanations in nyur lam and de lam. Then also the Three Principles has it. So read the short explanations first to get some rough idea, then go to the longer ones and then go back to the short one. Go back and forth. Then it will begin to form certain precise ideas. You cannot go on and meditate after reading just the long ones. Of course, the entire bodhisattvacharyavatara – all 8 existing transcripts, are about bodhimind.

0:33

I will tell you to first read Odyssey to Freedom, then the Three Principles of the Path, the bodhisattva part, then look at that section in the lam rim and the bodhisattvacharyavatara will be too long and too big to read. Occasionally you can read in it, when you have time. Then go back to the shorter ones and finally bring it down either to the lam rim prayer in the lama chöpa or the Foundation of All Perfections, something that you say every day. Then finally bring it down to even

Sang gye chö dang tsog kyi chog nam la

jang chub bar du dag ni kyab su chi

dag gi jin sog gye pai sö nam kyi

dro la pän chir sang gye drub par shog

I take refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha

until I obtain Enlightenment.

By practicing generosity and the other perfections

may I be able to obtain Enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.

When you say this four line shaloka and particularly the last two lines, that should have the understanding of bodhimind. It should really boil down to that. Every day you won’t be able to say the Three Principles of the Path. It is not your commitment and we have difficulty to maintain commitments. We try to do the shortest possible. However, we shouldn’t do thefour line versions of the sadhanas that can be put in the lama chöpa. That is really for emergencies. At least say the short sadhanas. Lately I have been doing that too. It doesn’t take time. Honestly. If I do the whole practice reasonably, it will take 3, 4 hours. But when I do the shortest possible, then in the time coming from my time, down with the elevator and to the breakfast table, sitting there, half talking and half saying the sadhanas, within that time I say the Chittamani sadhana, Yamantaka sadhana, Vajrayogini sadhana. I cannot manage Heruka at that point, but half of the lama chöpa goes there. When you use the short ones – not the shortest of the short ones – you can manage. It doesn’t take that long. Within one hour all of them are very easily manageable. But you should manage bodhimind within that time.

Sang gye chö dang tsog kyi chog nam la

jang chub bar du dag ni kyab su chi

dag gi jin sog gye pai sö nam kyi

dro la pän chir sang gye drub par shog

The first two lines are about refuge, the last two lines should take care of the bodhimind. This verse is repeated many times in different sadhanas. Often you say the one with taking refuge to the Three Jewels, purifying negativities, rejoicing in the deeds of all beings and generating the spirit of enlightenment. They all do the same and should be able to bring you to that level. First you have to have understanding. Get the essence out of Odyssey to Freedom. If you want a little more elaborate explanation, go to one of the lam rims or Three Principles. But pour everything into that little chapter in Odyssey to Freedom. Then pour that into these two lines:

By practicing generosity and the other perfections

may I be able to obtain Enlightenment for the benefit of all beings

That’s how you have to do it. Otherwise you have to read everything everywhere and it will be impossible. You would get up at 3 in the morning and start reading and even by midnight nothing would be finished. No one can do it and no one should do it, particularly for today’s life it has to be short and simple. We got other things to do in life. We have to work and pay bills and you have to socialize and all of these are part of life. You can’t deprive yourself of the opportunity, particularly when you are young and healthy and when you are happy or sad. Then you need a little socializing too. There may be one or two people who don’t like socializing and that’s their choice. There is nothing wrong with that, but that’s your own choice. Do whatever you want to do, but your practice should not be in the way, blocking it.

Particularly, there are family commitments. If you have children that takes a long time, as you know. Very specifically if you are single parents, it takes even more time. So that’s how life really is. So make the practice very, very concise and then use it. That’s why I told those that are doing lama chöpa and if you miss the ganden lha gyema – fine. If you do the ganden lha gyema and you miss the lama chöpa, that may not be fine, because the ganden lha gyema does not have a commitment, but the lama chöpa does. But that’s how it is. Somehow we have to learn. There are many of you, as far as I know who are doing the Chittamani Tara sadhana, Vajrayogini sadhana and a few of you who are doing Heruka. Many are doing Yamantaka and most of you are doing lama chöpa. So you really have five or six, half a dozen major, major practices. Get bodhimind in there. It is there in so many words already, everywhere. It pops up everywhere. It is pervasive. So get yourself a little acquainted and have a short, precise thought you can entertain and entertain that and make it.

0:43

Particularly for teachings like this you should always generate bodhimind and it is customary that I remind you. So far we have done Pabongka’s Liberation in the Palm wisdom chapter. I have done it by a little bit of reading and explanation. So that part is over.

Now we are moving to Shantideva’s Chapter 9:

We are using the same text as in last year’s summer retreat (2012). Go to page 366. You are all familiar with the bodhisattvacharyavatara. It is great and wonderful. All of these practices, everything, will boil down to really one: everyday practice. That’s what is is. Here you have two: wisdom – and compassion aspects. In one way it is two, on the other hand, the wisdom aspects are in essence compassion and the compassion aspects are in essence wisdom. So, it really boils down to one.

The compassion aspects include:

the guru devotional practice, embracing life, it’s importance and difficulty to find, impermanence, taking refuge, then understanding of samsara in general by means of the Four Noble Truths or the 12 interdependent links, recognizing suffering in samsara, developing dislike for it, desire for liberation, recognizing all beings are suffering in the same conditions, generating love and compassion, the special resolution and bodhimind, after generating the bodhimind, the actual bodhimind, engaging in avoiding negativities and building positivities, by way of generosity, morality, patience, enthusiasm, then taming the mind by way of focusing meditation, then analyzing.

At the end of Pabongkha’s Liberation in the Palm wisdom chapter we saw that your concentrated meditation becomes analytical meditation and your analytical meditation becomes concentrated meditation, which is known as union of shamata and vipasyana – and that is wisdom.

So up to focusing, the concentrated meditation of jor gom, Buddha taught all of those for the sake of wisdom:

༡ །ཡན་ལག་འདི་དག་ཐམས་�

ད་ནི།།

།ཐུབ་པས་ཤེས་རབ་དོན་དུ་གསུངས།།

།དེ་ཡི་ཕྱིར་ན་སྡུག་བསྔལ་དག།

།ཞི་བར་འདོད་པས་ཤེས་རབ་བསྐྱེད།།

1 YAN LAG 'DI DAG THAMS CAD NI

THUB PAS SHES RAB DON DU GSUNGSDE YI PHYIR NA SDUG BSNGAL DAG

ZHI BAR 'DOD PAS SHES RAB BSKYED

All these branches of the Doctrine

The Powerful Lord expounded for the sake of wisdom.

Therefore they must generate this wisdom

Who wish to have an end of suffering.

I am going to read the Tibetan. If I try to read the English it is not good. I will be disgracing myself. I don’t know how to reach English. Different translators have different ideas. I don’t know why you have to say ‘doctrine’ here. Anyway, Buddha taught all these different branches of teachings to develop wisdom. This is a wisdom-oriented statement. So therefore, any one would like to be free or who would like to pacify personal sufferings in samsara should try to maintain wisdom. That is probably the first verse.

This is talking about the basis of wisdom and how to develop it. First, what they are pointing out is this: wisdom alone may not be able to liberate the individual out of samsara. So, both, compassion and wisdom combined has to be. Buddha described this as a ‘path’, that means a road that leads you to the goal. That path is also dharma, because when you are talking about refuge and dharma, then it is probably two: the informational aspects of the dharma and the informational aspects of the dharma. Those are totally known to you all, except maybe one or two new, younger ones – not by age, but otherwise that’s what it is. So dharma and path are almost the same. If you say they are really the same a little logical disagreement may come, but other than that they are the same. So we call this the ‘path’, which also consists of two: wisdom and compassion, these two paths.

In order to clear these two paths which are founded on our life, here come the two truths. During Pabongkha’s commentary in Liberation in the Palm, he didn’t mention anything about the two truths. I was reading up and down, but here Shantideva does. Shantideva’s bodhisattvacharyavatara explains the two truths in four different outlines:

Explaining each truth

Which person is who

Higher level understanding refutes lower level understanding

Refuting that refutation

First, the two truths. I mentioned yesterday:

Jigten zhen bei zhe lang ma sem pa

den pa nyi ni nyi kyi dom pa ze

gang zhi kun dzob de zhin don dam te

den pa sum pa nam yang ma zhen so

Jig ten zhen pa refers to total knowledge of Buddha. Without influence of anybody, with his true, genuine understanding he presented us with the two truths. Every phenomena, every existence, are covered within the two truths. That includes interpersonal and non-personal phenomena. All of them are in the two truths. den pa sum pa nam yang ma zhen so – the third truth never existed.

You may say, “What about the four noble truths? There is not just a third, but even a fourth!” But maybe that is different.

1:00

Then what are the two truths?

༢ །ཀུན་རྫོབ་དང་ནི་དོན་དམ་སྟེ།།

།འདི་ནི་བདེན་པ་གཉིས་སུ་འདོད།།

།དོན་དམ་བློ་ཡི་སྤྱོད་ཡུལ་མིན།།

།བློ་ནི་ཀུན་རྫོབ་ཡིན་པར་བརྗོད།།

2 KUN RDZOB DANG NI DON DAM STE

'DI NI BDEN PA GNYIS SU 'DOD

DON DAM BLO YI SPYOD YUL MIN

BLO NI KUN RDZOB YIN PAR BRJOD

Relative and absolute,

These two truths are declared to be.

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect

For intellect is grounded in the relative.

The first two lines say there is relative and absolute truths, and these are the the two truths. Two truths here means to be known. If you want to know what total knowledge knows about, it’s these two things and these two things only, relative and absolute. There is no third one. And you know, knowing these two things together can only be done at total knowledge. Below total knowledge you can’t know these two things together. Even on the third path, the meditative state with total focus, either bodhisattva or arhat, that can’t be done. There are the five paths, in the same order and with the same names, for Theravada and Mahayana and even that focused, concentrated total absorption on the third path, means they are totally focused on the absolute and in their mental presence there is no relative present at all. They are totally absorbed in the absolute. No relative never ever even existed in the perception of that individual mind. Only simultaneously known together it is at the total enlightenment level. That’s why they give you the example that Buddha’s knowledge is like looking at a transparent fruit in the palm of your hand.

1.03

Then you see the fruit and through the fruit you see the writings in your palm. We used to say: it is easier to put a glass there rather than a transparent fruit, whatever that is. Knowing these two truths together, simultaneously, becomes total knowledge. So basically we try to establish that every existence is within the two truths. Knowing the two truths simultaneously is called total knowledge. What is this truth?

So the absolute truth we cannot see with our usual mind, no matter how intelligent or great it might be. We may not be able to perceive that absolute truth. It is only at certain levels of people who are developed. We call that extraordinary wisdom. This is not a hierarchy in the spiritual path, but there are two categories of people introduced by Buddha. One is called ordinary, the other extraordinary. This is not racist, where you are born into a certain category, although early Indian culture did have that. They had the Brahmin category or race and the Harijan race. If you are born as Brahmin, you are Brahmin, especially if you are a Kashi Brahmin you are way superior to anybody else. And if you are Harijan, it is very difficult. You can’t even enter through the main door of people’s houses. You can only enter through the bathroom door. That’s old Indian culture.

But when Buddha divided people into two categories, it had nothing to do with the caste system. Buddhism does not have the caste system at all. That is one great thing. I can’t help it. I am a very cynical person. Dr. Ambedkar, a Maharati, is the author of the Indian constitution. He became a Buddhist and he brought hundreds of thousands of Indians into Buddhism. Some of them will say, “I take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha and Dr. Ambedkar.” But being a cynical person I can’t help thinking that he wanted to do something that was not bound by the Indian caste system. So he saw no other alternative but to embrace Buddhism, which Hindus regard as a part of Hinduism anyway. So then you are out of the caste system completely. So he wrote the constitution, but he also had a problem, because some castes were given special privileges in the constitution, which they lost by embracing Buddhism.

So the two types of people, ordinary and extraordinary in this case are not the caste system. The normal, usual good people are the ordinary people. The extraordinary people are the people with extraordinary senses, the 3rd eye kind. That’s a mental eye, not a physical eye. They see the absolute truth, which is not easily understood by a normal mind.

1:10 (short break) The old Batchelor translation is supposed to be a commentary rather than a translation. That probably doesn’t work very well. When I asked permission to use it Batchelor himself said that his translation of the 9th chapter was a commentary. That commentary is also based on a strange commentary, by Gyalse Thogme Sangpo. It is sort of known, but still…

The last two lines of this verse again:

DON DAM BLO YI SPYOD YUL MIN

BLO NI KUN RDZOB YIN PAR BRJOD

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect

For intellect is grounded in the relative.

Many people will explain the absolute is not in the reach of ordinary people’s mental capacity. But mind itself is relative. So some people use that as reason why ordinary mind cannot use or reach to absolute truth, becuase mind itself is relative. A number of people read and translate it that way. But that’s supposed to bea mistake, because when you read the words it may look that way, but that’s not the way it is. So then what is it?

The Buddha sees that the relative truth is comprehendable for everybody, ordinary and extraordinary. Extraordinary people can see both, relative and absolute, ordinary people cannot. I like to go that way. This translation says, “The intellect is grounded in the relative”. That probably can go in between. So it can switch any way you want to. Very wise – interpretable. You will see many people that because mind is ordinary, therefore it cannot reach the extraordinary objects. And that is probably not right. The Buddha said that the relative is the truth for the ordinary mind, which can comprehend it and the extraordinary person can see the absolute truth. That way it is easier. That is probably good enough.

The next verse is about who is who.

༣ །དེ་ལ་འཇིག་རྟེན་རྣམ་གཉིས་མཐོང༌།།

།རྣལ་འབྱོར་པ་དང་ཕལ་པའོ།།

།དེ་ལ་འཇིག་རྟེན་ཕལ་བ་ནི།།

།རྣལ་འབྱོར་འཇིག་རྟེན་གྱིས་གནོད་�

ིང༌།།

3 DE LA 'JIG RTEN RNAM GNYIS MTHONG;

RNAL 'BYOR PA DANG PHAL PA'O

DE LA 'JIG RTEN PHAL PA NI

RNAL 'BYOR 'JIG RTEN GYIS GNOD CING

Two kinds of people are to be distinguished:

Meditative thinkers and ordinary folk;

The common views of ordinary people

Are superseded by the views of meditators.

You can call it ‘person’ or ‘jigten pa’. The word jig ten pa is referring to those of us who have not seen the absolute truth. Jig ten pa – the word itself refers to samsaric people. In common language it is used for non-monks, for lay people. Monks are non-jigten pa.

1.19

That’s because monks are supposed to have renounced family. They are not family-oriented. That means the true Buddhist monks should not only have renounced family life – that’s why they wear robes and go into the forest or caves or monasteries – but when they say ‘renounce family’ they are supposed to renounce attachment and hatred. Family normally means you are attached – to spouse and children and family life. They are supposed to have renounced hatred, because it is not only ‘me’ but ‘my’. But for quite a while now, monks are engaging – maybe not with women – but they do engage with anything else. That really leads to unfortunate incidents like what’s happening in Burma and as a consequence what’s happening in India. The Bodhgaya temple has been bombed, as you all know, 3 days ago. There were 9 different bombs, but the damage is very minimal, I was told. Probably it was home-made devices, maybe Molotov cocktails or whatever. But the monks are supposed to be beyond that. That’s the reason why lay people are called jig ten pa and monks rab jung – having become best, by renouncing hatred and attachment. That is really what being a monk is all about. That’s one way of looking at jig ten pa.

But this particular jig ten pa is referring to ‘ordinary’. It’s called ‘ordinary’ because you rely on a perishable basis. Our physical body and everything is perishable. It doesn’t matter how young you think you are and intelligent and good, the body is perishable. There will be a time when it is too old and crumbled and you may become grumpy along with it. It takes only a matter of seconds. Unfortunately our life, our health, our youth, everything can be gone in a matter of seconds, honestly. This is the truth. We cannot forget that.

Five years ago we were in Wisconsin. One of our friends’ husband got sick during the teaching. We were still walking somewhere together in the afternoon. I couldn’t walk much and they were standing there. Thereafter, I didn’t see him and next thing I hear is that he had to go to hospital. Next time I saw him he was in a wheel chair. It took one night. I am not telling any individual that this is going to happen to you. Don’t think in that way, but it is possible. That is what it means to rely on perishable things. That’s why it is samsara.

1:26

According to the bodhisattvacharyavatara even the perishable depends are two: yogic and ordinary ones. They refer to yogis instead of ‘extraordinary’. So here ‘jig’ is referring to the heaps (Tib: phung po) we talked about yesterday. That’s in this particular case. The meaning of jig changes. In this case it refers to “heaps”. Ten is based. So if you stretch it jig can mean destruction and impermanence and that way it becomes perishable, which refers to our physical body. And there is no doubt that it is. If it could be maintained forever, then Buddha Shakyamuni should be alive today. So would Jesus and all the great ones. They should still be alive, but they are not. So nothing can really make you permanent, because it is perishable. We depend on it. We absolutely depend on it, and that’s why it is jig ten pa.

Then the third point is

DE LA 'JIG RTEN PHAL PA NI

RNAL 'BYOR 'JIG RTEN GYIS GNOD CING

The common views of ordinary people

Are superseded by the views of meditators.

Here, instead of ‘yogis’, the translators used ‘meditators’. All right. You have to read the next verse along with this:

༤ །རྣལ་འབྱོར་པ་ཡང་བློ་ཁྱད་ཀྱིས།།

།གོང་མ་གོང་མ་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་གནོད།།

།གཉིས་ཀ་ཡང་ནི་འདོད་པའི་དཔེས།།

།འབྲས་བུའི་དོན་དུ་མ་དཔྱད་ཕྱིར།།

4 RNAL 'BYOR PA YANG BLO KHYAD KYIS

GONG MA GONG MA RNAMS KYIS GNOD

GNYI GA YANG NI 'DOD PA'I DPES

'BRAS BU'I DON DU MA DPYAD PHYIR

And within the ranks of meditators,

The lower, in degrees of insight, are confuted by the higher.

For all employ the same comparisons,

And the goal, if left unanalyzed, they all accept.

The ordinary person’s understanding will be refuted by the special person’s view. Why? Because the special persons see absolute truth directly and the ordinary people don’t. That’s why they can refute them. But within the special people among themselves the the higher ones refute the lower ones. For example, the Cittamatrins, the Mind Only School. There are four Buddhist schools, two Mahayana schools. These are the Madhyamaka or Middle Path schools and the Chittamatrins, the Mind Only school. They are considered Mahayana philosophy schools. Below that there are two more, the Vaibasika and Sautantrika. These are Sanskrit words. These two are considered Hinayana schools.

So the Chittamatra or Mind Only school, accepts that form, etc, truly exists. And that acceptance is refuted by the Middle Path school, both through logic and quotations. That is what meant by ‘the higher ones refute the lower ones’. I am just giving you this one example. Here, when you talk about the ordinary, it refers to those who have not understood and not encountered emptiness. When we talk about special ones it is those who have encountered the wisdom. That is where the line is drawn. Indirectly you can also understand it as contaminated and uncontaminated. Different schools have different thoughts on that, but I look at it that way. It is easier for us to look at it that way. As long as we remain in the ordinary level everything is contaminated. Once you encounter emptiness everything becomes uncontaminated. The Vaibasika may or may not accept that.

La ma thop pai du je na

Sa cha kang je di ta na

Sa nam gong du gye par gyur

Sa ne lam gye den pa ne

Tra wa-o so so ye……

It doesn’t matter, but that’s where I will draw the line. It is not only the line between ordinary and special or extraordinary,[ but also contaminated and uncontaminated.]

The outline probably changes here after the fourth verse. That is about refutation and there is a relative point and an absolute point. The relative point

༥ །འཇིག་རྟེན་པ་ཡིས་དངོས་མཐོང་ཞིང༌།།

།ཡང་དག་ཉིད་དུའང་རྟོག་བྱེད་ཀྱི།།

།སྒྱུ་མ་ལྟ་བུར་མིན་པས་འདིར།།

།རྣལ་འབྱོར་པ་དང་འཇིག་རྟེན་རྩོད།།

5 'JIG RTEN PA YIS DNGOS MTHONG ZHING

YANG DAG NYID DU'ANG RTOG BYED KYI

SGYU MA LTA BUR MIN PAS 'DIR

RNAL 'BYOR PA DANG 'JIG RTEN RTZOD

When ordinary folk perceive phenomena,

They look on them as real and not illusory.

This, then, is the subject of debate

Where ordinary and meditators differ.

1:43

The ordinary people will see directly only how things exist. They don’t see that it’s like a magician’s effect or illusory effect. The extraordinary or yogis see it differently. They see it is existing, but not truly, existing, but not naturally. That’s the reason why these two will argue and debate. The extraordinary people will say that this is the true reality and the ordinary people will say that this is not the true reality. This is not arguing for argument’s sake, but about which point will be more effective and more helpful for us. That’s why this disagreement is there, insisting on one’s viewpoint with reasons – how far and deep it can go, what it really is. That will make a difference for those of us who are coming afterwards. To make that clear, that’s why they present this argument.

We call it a debate. People may have the idea that they just want to argue. But it is the point of arguing. It is the point of finding the absolute so that it will be helpful. I give you a little joke here:

Back in Tibet, when they were debating, they debated kang sar. That means ‘person’, a person who depends on the combination of the five heaps. So kang sar is the basis of the debate. So a nomad came to pray and have an audience during the prayer festival. Two monks were getting up and debated about kang sar. In ordinary normal language kang sar means a tobacco pipe, from which you smoke. The nomad thought, “These monks are arguing so much about this kang sar. What’s wrong with them?” Next year he came back and another two monks were arguing about the same thing. By that time the nomad thought “Look, I better stop this argument.” He said to them, “I have one….Tape ends at 1:47…….[reconstructed from transcriber’s notes: ….pipe here and I am just going to give it to the loser of this argument]