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11

Sound file 19860528GROmCafIgnorance21_011619871116GR&RTMN2_01

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche & Robert Thurman

Location OM Cafe??

Topic Tibet Mystic NationIgnorance

Transcriber Vickii Cahill

Date February 9, 2023

GR: Hollow there. So, it doesn’t stick through the wall. It goes through the wall. It goes through everything except at the time of rebirth, you get stuck on the mother’s womb. Whatever the womb may be. Till then they have that body. And that body will change. Go on and change every minute. Every. I mean, that is again impermanent, changing every second or second. But it is continued to seven days. Every seven days it will change seven times maximum. So, that’s it. So, then again they change the whole body. Take rebirth. But then you may say, “Hey. I definitely saw him there. I’m not lying.” Somebody. Those who have an eye to see the spirit. Those who have the eye to see the spirit, they may say, “Yes, I definitely saw him there or her there.” Yes. They’re not lying. But that’s not her. That’s not him. That is the spirit that born with him and with her. There are a lot of spirits. Three hundred and some odd spirits are with the human being, each human being. So, these spirits will acknowledge under the identity of that particular person for a long time. The human life is shorter than those spirits’ lives. So, they remain for a long time. After a long, long time, they die one after the another. And finally finish. Because those spirits live much longer than human life. Honest. Ok. You get me? Ok. So, they are body. They are mind. They are functioning. They’re functioning. They’re impermanent. They are changing. Yet, they are continuing. Impermanent. That is impermanent. That is not permanent. Impermanent. Changing every minute to minute. However, it is continued. So, they call it continuation of discontinuity. In that nature it will function. Yeah. Really. Continuation of discontinuity. In that manner, they’ll function. I mean, every human being. We will function. When we die, we do the same thing. Every one of us will do the same thing. Yeah. Now it’s your turn. I’m sorry. Now. One or two can still fit up here, if you want to. Come in here. Maybe just one or two. From the back. If you have a problem sitting there.

Oh. She’s turn.

Audience: I wasn’t clear on whether or not dependent was a part of the “I” or part of the “I-less”.

0:03:06.3 GR: Dependent arise makes you understand “I-lessness”. Nothing exists from true nature, because it depends. When you cannot stand, you depend on the walking stick. When you cannot stand by yourself, you depend on something. When you depend on the walking stick, which is indication that you cannot stand by yourself. It is not show off. Right?

Audience: Does that take the blame out of the ?

GR: That takes away the true existence.

Audience: The true existence.

GR: And when true existence goes away. The “I” true existence of “I” goes away. So, when “I” goes away, “I-lessness” has come in. When “I” exist, but also “I-less”. You get me? I exist, though “I-less”. (laughs) Sorry. Yes sir.

Audience: I’m a little confused by your

GR: Sure. Sure.

Audience: You’re dependent on the labels, sort of I guess. That sort of thing (?) 0:04:25.6 What is the Buddhist perception of God or before stretch(??) Nature in place. That’s what I think. Uh. I’m confused towards this dependence of. We’re dependent on the world.

GR: Nobody depends on world. The world depends on us.

Audience: That’s right.

GR: The world depends on us. That’s why we have to be good. If we are bad, we destroy the world. The world becomes bad. We are part and parcel of the world. When we’re not there, the world will not be there.

Audience: What is the Buddhist perception of God? Or ultimate reality

GR: What do you mean? There are hundreds and thousands of gods. Ok? Get total enlightenment is the aim of total achievement. You get me?

Audience: I hear you.

GR: I’m glad you did. (laughs) I’m just joking. But. But. But it’s not something not clear to you? Why don’t you come?

Audience: I understand but I kind of disagree. That’s all.

GR: Yeah. But what? Tell me about it.

Audience: About. I think we’re dependent on.

GR: On what?

Audience: The force of.

GR: Where is the force? You show me. Audience: ??

Audience; The sun for one thing.

GR: Oh. Sun is. Sun is another universal.

0:06:03.7 The moon is another universe. Can’t call it universe. It’s sort of another.

Audience: Given

GR: Huh?

Audience: Given

GR: It is another. I mean, there are galaxies. There are millions of galaxies in this. Sun is one of them. The moon is one of them. We are one of them.

Audience: What holds the atoms together? What is the consciousness. Is it our consciousness?

GR: No. No. No. No. No. The magnetic power.

Audience: What is that?

GR: the magnetic power within the substance of this world has a magnetic power of sticking to each other. And that holds.

Audience: When you’re saying the table. That has a label, but dependent on the ultimate reality. Or whatever you want to call it.

GR: I didn’t say that. I said the collection of the you know. Again let me call it, magnetic collection of the parts of the table. The moment that is lost, the table is gone. That’s what I said.

Audience: talking out of the surface

GR: I’m talking on this. The inner or outer; it works the same principal. How can there be separate inner without depend on the outer. No sir.

Audience: Ok. I agree with that.

GR: Thank you. I mean, you have to. You have no alternative. If you are intelligently looking. Really. I’m sorry. But it is true. Yes. Sorry. You already said. This. Wait a minute. I think somebody else waiting. You. Pam. Pam

Audience: A little question about the spirit. The three hundred and some spirits. That you talk.

GR: Yeah. Simultaneous born spirit. Every human being has simultaneous born three hundred as minimum spirit.

Audience: Right. But when I die, do they all die with me.

GR: No. They don’t. This is the problem.

Audience: Do I get another set?

GR: Yes. You get another set. Ok. You get another set. That’s it. That’s it. Because. Because you get another identity. So, you get another identity. So, you get with that identity, you get another complete set. And that very people, when they die. They again become human being also. Some of them can become human being. And this is a part of whole samsaric movement. That’s why most of them hungry ghost. Most of them. Out of six realms, if you divided, you divide them into the hungry ghost levels. What identity they take, they take your identity. They borrow your identity card. (laughs) Your identification. They knew all your secrets, which you been guarding.

0:09:01.5 Totally. Except, during the initiations. Ok. So only question. Suppose if you die, somebody sees you day after tomorrow walking through Ann Arbor’s streets. So, what asking is question asked is, “When you take initiation with so and so, what is your name given to you?” Can never answer. Or “Who else with you?” Ok. They cannot answer that because they will simply say, “I was not there.” Or some of them even tell you, “I was kicked out.” Ok. That’s what. Kicked out. So, therefore they’re unable to answer that very question. Otherwise, they know everything, including what do you do in bathroom. (laughs) Yes. I’m sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Sure. Sorry.

Audience: How can you. How do you know that your spirit leaves you? How will you know when that spirit’s left you. To be able to say that you have a spirit, that’s gone and takes form in other people’s body. How can you prove that to me?

GR: That doesn’t go away at all.

Audience: Yeah. But how can you say that 0:10:21.6 haven talked to you.(?) How can I believe your word. You’re just saying that spirits. Your spirit leaves and.

GR: Spirit doesn’t

Audience: Spirit bonding (?)0:10:32.7

GR: Oh. When you die. Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Audience: How do you know this?

GR: You see them round.

Audience: Yeah. But I’ve never seen them around.

GR: But there are people who sees them round.

Audience: But how do I believe those people?

GR: They’re not telling lie. Really. They don’t tell lies. They are some maybe telling lies. I don’t blame you. Some maybe telling lies. But

Audience: How do they find out the really. How can you tell me, that perhaps wouldn’t believe that.

GR: Ok. You meditate. And you get a little development and even then you’ll know.

Audience: Well. I’ve meditated. And.

GR: Ok. Maybe. Me. Ok. Maybe you have meditated bit, short period, or maybe slightly not on this direction. But if you get. If you do a true. If you do a true meditation. I mean, like what we talked day before yesterday here. When you gain those samadhis, I’ll talk to. When you look through the eye, you see behind eye. Ok. So, when you’re getting this sort of result, you’re doing a correct meditation. You’re getting the result. At that level, then you can see what is behind this. You’ll see behind the human being.

Audience: People see images beyond that.

GR: You don’t see images. Listen. Listen. You don’t see images You’ll see. Visualize forms.

0:12:00.8 Audience: But you can make that with your mind.

GR: That’s why I call you visualize form. That is your mental projection. I’m not talking that. I’m not talking that Beyond that you’ll see the reality. What you build up, your own mind, mental picture. And when you’re looking at that. And what you really see what is behind that is two different things totally.

Audience: Say someone dies.

GR: That. You know. That doesn’t need spiritual power. Certain people. A lot of people do have karmic power. Karmic power. It is without any effort, they have. Some kind of power. They do see it. Lot of people do see that. Even you’re really dead, simply wanted their method. Even without spiritual development their method. If you pick up the last tear drop of dying person. Put on your eyes and see what happens then. It will work for a couple of minutes at least. The last tear drop of a dying person, you picked up, put on your ear. I’m sorry. Eye. Not ear.

Audience: You can see what that person is.

GR: No. No. No. Not necessarily. But you see something little more than that.

Audience: Well. I’ve been with a dying person.

GR: Did you put a tear on that?

Audience: No. I didn’t.

GR: You do that. And then you’ll see what happens and you’ll come back.

Audience: Serious

GR: I’m not joking. It’s true. Really

Audience: I would like to know how one can prove. I’ve seen appearance. I was with my grandmother, when she died. And her body was just there.

GR: And then?

Audience: Then how can I know. Or how can anyone know what happens to that spirit that went? It’s just an empty shell of a body. And there’s nothing there. But how can you prove to a person that is living, what is beyond. No one really knows. No one’s been able to prove it to me. Can Buddhism prove it?

GR: Spiritually developed persons. Ones. Lot of them can see with their own eyes. Even without spiritual development. I’m just telling you, person will see spirit. They do always see it. I mean, it doesn’t mean, if you alone does not see, that doesn’t mean that doesn’t see it. Doesn’t there. When I did not see something that doesn’t mean it does not not exist. So, there are other people who see it.

Audience: So, I just stand by the words.

GR: Not the word. Every Tom, Dick and Henry doesn’t tell lies. Yeah. Really.

0:15:03.3 Not necessarily teaching alone. There are a lot of people, living people could see. Lots of them. Many of them see. Many of those who claims to see the spirit, this and that. You ask them, some of them may be liar. I’m not denying that. But everybody doesn’t lie. So, they do see. They do see it.

Audience: Imagination

GR: It’s not imagination. I can imagine it. You can imagine it. When they see it, they see it with eyes like you and I see somebody else, a third person. That is, we call it, seeing. Imagination is imagination. That you don’t call it seeing. You understand. You must see. You picture it something. You made up something. And you say, “Ha! I see.” No. That’s not right. That’s not seeing. That is imagine. But actually seeing. There are those people’s spirits. The people who see spirits. They really see the spirit. They see the person. Living different person. Even different. They will see with a single. You know. Funny things they see. They see only one horn, where there’s eye, nose, and mouth all three function together. They do see that. They do. They do see it.

Audience: Have you seen it?

GR: I don’t like to answer that. Would you mind please? (laughs)

Audience; Behind (?)0:16:24.7You take the assumption. You take the idea of people living after death and the hypothesis like a scientist. Say he had a hypothesis. And he had to proceed to test that. And the way you do that is through the meditation.

Audience 2: ??

Audience: There’s just one, then you’ll have generated experiential data to either prove or disprove the hypothesis yourself. But you have to carry out the experiment for this to work. Otherwise, he may reject the hypothesis. Be lost the rejection.

GR: Not only that. One mind really. Nowadays if you really go to a educated scientist they cannot deny past and future lives. Twenty years ago if we say, there is life thereafter, they will say, “Rubbish”. Straight away. Today they will not. Because there’s so much evidence they come up. And they just need a scientific explanation. They’re simply waiting. When they get some scientific explanation, a scientifically they will come out. It’s going to come out. Has to come out. I don’t know what scientific explanation. They get it. They will get something. Definitely. That’s there for sure.

Audience: So, I would like to think that that was so.

GR: Well, you don’t have to like. It is so. However. However, you also should know that everybody will not lie. You know. I mean, those who claim to be seeing this thing, that thing.

0:18:01.5 They not necessarily everybody’s true. Some of them may be just blabbing. But everybody don’t lie. Ok. Yes, Robert. It’s your turn now. Definitely. Especially, I see very clean today.

Robert: I took a bath before I came. Seeing that. Seeing that believing (?) 0:18:23.6Interesting. I have a question. And whether that advice or not. Another question. Some people last night (??) But I have a question .I want to know, does enlightenment arise independently or dependently. And if you don’t chose (?) that, who is the meaningful beholder on the path to enlightenment? I’m not enlightened, (??) I thought to ask that question.

GR: There is no such a person called “who is the holder of meaning of enlightenment.” Enlightenment is something which is eligible. Anybody can obtain. It is a stage where you can reach.

Robert: Does it arise dependently?

GR: Dependent arise. For sure.

Robert: And is there pure meaningful to behold. (?)

GR: Pure meaningful to behold. (?) Yes, It is. It is independent permanent. It is not impermanent. It is permanent. Ok? Yes. I think she didn’t get it.

Audience: Can you describe for us (recording stops)

GR: But they will be from over, slightly over crowded, you know.

Audience: Chair

GR: There’s one chair behind here. Yeah.

Audience:

GR: If you want to come here, you can come. There’s space.

Audience:

GR: Ok. Oh here. Here, here, here. Ok. But that doesn’t mean you have to sit cross-legged. Ok. You can stretch legs here and there at the side in between. Because sitting cross-legged sometimes be a problem. Those who are not used to it, especially. Ok. Now. Tonight I’m supposed to present the talk. I mean this is the last talk of the six paramita activities. And which is the last activity, which is wisdom. We talk. When is it? Yesterday. Day before yesterday. Yeah. Day before yesterday, we talked the meditation based on the concentrated. And incidentally I did not get. As both of you who are here, you remember. The nine stages. And four conjunctions and all this. I didn’t get time to deal with that at all. However, we talk about the five problems and how to overcome the five problems. So, the stages are automatically comes in . But however, if I still get some time, then I’ll do work out some tapes on which how you can meditate. Of all this nine stages. All detailedly about it. Sort of ten twenty minutes of tape. Maybe it will be nine different tapes. I don’t know whatever.

0:03:01.7 So, we’ll plan to do to be worked out. And if that happens, you can check up later. This wisdom presentation has to be continued with that of the meditation, which we did before. So, by sitting and gaining that power. Those who have been there before. I mean, they’ll knew what I’m talking. By gaining the power and the pleasure and the harmony in body, in mind, you’ll stay by continuously forcing yourself on the object, then you gain stability of controlling your mind. Focusing on the object. Ok. That very focusing on the object can go up, up to quite a high level. The level that I have introduced in the preliminary level of the first stage of meditation. That’s where you get. Ok? So, if you can still continuously sitting and thinking on the object. Continuously focusing and holding yourself on that, then you can reach actual stage of the first. And then actual conclusion stage and then stage two, stage three, stage four and up to stage eight. Then after stage eight, you have four formless stage. And after that you have ultimate stage. The ultimate stage in all this are. It’s almost like a half understanding. Half no understanding. So, it’s also referred as Du she me .Du shi meaning Nam gyuo. Which means meditation without any feeling at all. But it is not without feeling. That’s what it is. Says. So, it is not really totally dead stage, but it almost like a dead stage. You have no feeling for whatsoever. 8ort of perfect harmony. And people remain there for eons. Not years, but eons. But what happens then. The question remains, “What happens then?” So, you remain there for eons together. Nothing happened. No feeling. No bad thing. Everything wonderful.

0:06:02.0 I mean, don’t need food, naturally. But the samadhi food. Samadhi food was much better than human food. So, you remain there. However, then something happens. The power of the samadhi can be finished. Can finish .Can exhaust. Finished. And when that finished, them something. Some disturbance. Either some sort of rat eats your hair or something. And where you created anger. Immediately. And because up to this level, for a number of years, you have a covered. You have suppressed all delusions and all this. And you have a great harmony. You remain there for years and years and years together and beautiful. However the samadhi power is finished by the period. By the time convention. And then you get irritated or something happens. Some discomfort develops. And that created anger. Dissatisfaction and anger. And which will cut again. But all this efforts of your gaining totally up to this level and you get fallback. And that is what we call it, a really a fallback. Ok? Why you get fallback? Because you have gained a tremendous power through meditation. You have gained a tremendous achievement and development. However, this achievement and developments have not cut the samsaric roots. So, when this. When the samsaric root has not been cut, so all the delusions are temporarily suppressed. Ok. By suppressing. You understand what I mean by suppressing. Pushing down. Because, sorry my English is bad. So, that’s why. Sometimes I mispronounce it. So, when it suppressing it down. I mean, been able to suppress for years and eons together. However, when it's not finally get rid of the person, the whole thing will start back. Everything. So, that of the person of the seventeen stage or eighteenth, whatever it may be.

0:09:02.8 Right up on the top of the ultimate samadhi stage. Person falls back. Not only can fall back but will fall back. Almost nineth percentage fall back. The reason why they get fall back is because they have not cut the root of the samsara. You understand? Samsara is the circle of existence. (laughs) I just fall back, right? From here. It goes down. (laughs) So, circle of existence is continuing. Circle of existence. If you do not understand me, the life follows. The life, consisting of birth, death and living in between period. So, that continuing. The death follows by birth and birth follows by death. So, it will continue. That is what we call it; circle. It will continue. When I say continue, it does not necessarily mean always the human life will come. But when you die, you can change and come back a different way. But whatever the way you come. But it comes, continuing. So, when you have this samadhi, or the concentrated meditation power, which will temporarily expand life. Whatever life you may be having. By the power of the meditation, that life, the length of the life has been extended for such a long period of eon. So, the hundred, two hundred years. Nothing to be surprised. That sort of really prolong for a long, long, long time. But. But the moment the power of this particular meditation or that concentration is finished. And then everything’s finished. Everything. I mean, you have nothing more left. You become just like before. 0:11:33.1 (Tibetan: she..) It is like a glass, sort of, you know, crystal or glass, printed with different colors and when it washed. That’s was finished. Nothing more left. 0:11:48.7 (Tibetan: she la..) It is short. It is true nature, again. So, it is fall back. Why? Because you are unable to deal with the cause of the circle of life.

0:12:09.3 When you are unable to deal with the cause, you will not be able to deal with the result. You can never cut the result. You can always cut the cause. Cause and result. Effects are always. Ok. When I say. When sometimes, some people will say. We like to call that natural law. But sometimes when you call it natural law, people do use natural law in different terminologies. Ok. Different terminologies. So, to make sure it’s not misunderstanding, natural law. It’s this. So, cause and effect is the. Actually, it is the rule. I mean. I don’t know what to say. That’s what happens. And nobody made it. It is the how everything functions that way. Nothing can go beyond that. I mean, it can go beyond, but everything is functioning according to that circle, the cause and effect. Even when you go beyond circle of existence. Even then you have cause and effect functioning. You have the cause of circling has been cut. Then cause of going with the control. Without falling yourself into circle. You get me? You’re not getting me, at all. You are? Good. That’s it. So, what happened is, those of the people who gained tremendous power of meditation. Tremendous harmony. Who can sit for eons. Even then, they get fall back. The reason why you are getting fall back. You are unable to deal with the root. You temporarily have suppressed all the delusions, including anger, attachment, hatred. Everything. It’s been temporarily suppressed. Suppress will not work. It will get bursted. So, after that everything will be bursted again. You will start all over again. For all over agin. It will be like a brand new baby born. You have to stop with everything over again. So, your efforts, whatever been put, it’s been useless. I mean, the period what we enjoy is different matter. Otherwise it becomes useless. So, therefore Buddha very strongly emphasized people not to continue the concentration beyond the level where I introduced up to the day before yesterday.

0:15:08.3 Not to go beyond that. The reason why not to go beyond that. If you go beyond that, you keep on obtaining those stages. And but after some time you’ll get fall back. But up to this level, it’s necessary because you gain. Sort of, you gain a power to utilize your intellect of the mind. Be able to concentrate on anything you want to, without any distractions. So, that is you needed as a sort of a power. The example what they give earlier. I mean that is long before. Right? Long before the automobiles and all this. So, it is the giving. It is not strange to the Americans, this example. They have given this as a solid horse you can ride. The concentration power is like a horse. When you go and fight war. Like the red Indian war type of thing, you need a good solid, strong horse to ride. And you also need a sharp weapon to kick. I mean to fight with the enemy. Are you getting me? If you look into the Western movies, you see all of them, right? So, that’s it. So, like a horse, the concentrated, concentration power will serve like a horse. That give you a steady. The power to be able to go wherever you want to go. And help, without losing the object. But if you give a good horse, but you have no weapon, what would you do? You jump, jump, jump. Nothing happens. Right? So, you need a weapon. So, that’s why now, the wisdom has become necessary. So, Buddha had emphasized to his followers, the moment you gain power to utilize your mind to the object. This necessary power. Whatever we have mentioned that level. Beyond that, you leave it out and you concentrate yourself onto the wisdom now. And it is like picking a weapon to fight enemies. That weapon wisdom. The enemy is the ignorance. The ignorance is the root of all our problems.

0:17:59.1 All our suffering, misery and problems are created from the ignorance. Ignorance of not knowing the true nature. True reality. So, therefore we started diluting things. And then we have all sorts of, you know. The enemy. The friend. The attachment. The anger. You know. I mean, it’s very simple. Very simple. The ignorance developed “I”. I developed “my”. My develops “my friend”. My develops “my enemy”. I love my friend. I hate my enemy. All of then all started from here. And that’s why I say, the ignorance is the root of all. So, the ignorance is the real object here the wisdom destroys. Ok. So, now. The second question. Not only I just now talked to you, but it’s more than that. Up to now, whatever we have talked for all this are the method part of the Mahayana practice. Method. We talked compassion. We talked love. We talked altruistic mind. We talked generosity. We talked morality. We talked patience. And all this are the method part of it. Ok. When we are trying to cross an ocean of samsara, the circle of existence. When you have to fly over it, you need two wings. This is Chandrakirti’s presentation. 0:20:01.9 (Tibetan: kon chog den…) When you have to cross the ocean of samsara by flying. A bird, when they want to fly, you need two wings. Right? With one wing you can’t fly. You’ll fall down or you’ll go around. Right? So, that’s it. So, you need two wings to keep the balance. So, you need method and you need wisdom. Particularly you need wisdom. Both are necessary. Huh? Nagarjuna. 0:20:44.7 (Tibetan: Gye wa ..) That’s why two truths. Two kayas. You know, when you say kayas. Some people are familiar. When you achieve Buddhahood. Total enlightened-hood.

0:21:02.3 There are two bodies you achieve. That’s called two kayas. And it’s because of these two bodies we have two truths. Absolute truth and relative truth. And all of this are become necessary because of this. One is the method part of it. One is the wisdom part of it. Even yab yum. What you call it in tantra. What you call it, male female, blah, blah, blah. All this are nothing more than method and wisdom. So, a lot of people do look at the picture and say, “Hey, there’s a male and woman together. That is sex.” No, it’s not sex. That’s not male and woman. That is the method and wisdom. For even you look in the tantra. Or even you look in the sutra. Or even you look at the pure disciplined Hinayana style of Buddhism. Wherever you look into, these two are necessary. That is the wisdom and method. Ok. You get it. No matter how much method you apply on. Like love compassion. No matter how much you meditate on that, it will never cut the root of samsara. No. Never. It will never touch the ignorance. 0:22:22.8 (Tibetan: sam..) This is Dharmakirti. One of the Indian, earlier pundits. Great pundit who is. Who is the author who introduced on the logic. He has said, 0:22:40.6 (Tibetan: ….) That is. So, I’m bad at language. You know. Really. Parmanowhattika. So, therefore love compassion is not a direct opponent of ignorance. Therefore no matter how much you meditate for love compassion for millions of years. Even there you will never be able to reach near to the ignorance. So. So, the wisdom becomes necessary. So, method alone cannot reach. Like one-winged bird cannot go across. So, we need both. Ok. That is the reason why wisdom is necessary. Actually wisdom is about the. What is it? The Vipassana they call it. Ok. It is Vipassana. But the Vipassana meditation introduced by Goenka is not the vipassana what we are talking. I do not know why it is called vipassana. But it is for me, it is more samadhi, rather than vipassana.

0:24:05.5 But it is called vipassana. Ok. So, we are not talking about that vipassana. So, we have to talk. It is. It is in Tibetan, it is called lhak tong. It is in Sanskrit, it is called vipassana. But nowadays this vipassana is used by Goenka, quite sort of famous in concentrated meditation. So, I don’t know what to say, but he borrowed the wrong title for probably. Maybe, I don’t know. Who knows? (laughs) But whatever I talk, I talk on the basis of some background. So, I hope it’s not wrong. (laughs) Anyway. Ok. So, it is a big difficulty to talk about wisdom. So, I find one of my old notes that I have taken two years somewhere talking about this wisdom. So, I’m trying to compare it from here. Ok. This was done for different purposes. So, I was just looking when you are saying the pujas. For it has long, long, long introduction. Goes through. So, here we do not need all of them. Anyway, the true nature, the true wisdom is very difficult to understand. Ok. It’s really a very difficult to understand. Particularly our intellectual level. It is very, very difficult. The true wisdom means the famous Buddhist emptiness is the true wisdom for we have to introduce that. So, which is very. Emptiness. Did you hear? Ok. Good. (laughs) So, true wisdom is the true emptiness. Which is very difficult one. Very difficult one. So, with our intellect capacity of this moment, it’s very difficult to understand by our own efforts. So, that’s all it is recommended to depend on a reliable person who has understood this. And out of which, the recommended was Nagarjuna’s viewpoints. There are a lot of viewpoints even among the Buddha’s followers. And great Indian pundits also.

0:27:00.5 The early Indian and scholars had presented lot and lot of different way of this famous emptiness or shunyata or wisdom. However, what recommended was. I mean, is the Nagarjuna’s viewpoint. Nagarjuna. Nagarjuna is very famous. Those who are familiar with the philosophy and philologism and all this. Everybody knows who’s Nagarjuna. But there are lot of talk. There are one Nagarjuna, two Nagarjunas, ten Nagarjunas. Whatever it may be. But Nagarjuna is supposed to live six hundred years, according to the Tibetan myth. I call it myth. Maybe it’s wrong. Possibility of wrong. Because some Indian scholars have come our. They said six hundred years they have produced three different Nagarjunas in that period. Probably could have been right. You know? Even then each one of them has to live two hundred years. (laughs) So, whatever they may be, the work of the Nagarjunas presentation. And his follower, his disciple, Chandrakirti are very famous of Nagarjuna’s six root texts of introduction to the emptiness and it’s commentary by his disciple, Chandrakirti. Commentary of meaning and commentary on the word. There are two different commentaries. One commentary of his meaning of his text and one, his word’s text. What does that word mean? And then the meaning commentary goes beyond that word. What is between the lines means. You know? So, it’s one emphasized on the essence of the, what he wanted to say. The message. And one commentary emphasized the wording what he put it on. You know. In the traditional Sanskrit a lot of poetry, or in the poem form. So, it becomes more complicated. The subject was complicated. In addition to that when you put in the poem form. Poetry form. It is become more complicated. So. (laughs) So. They need commentary after commentary. So, anyway it’s recommended is the Nagarjuna’s viewpoints. Are recommended. Ok. Nagarjuna, what his view, essence of his views are emptiness. Selflessness. “I” less-ness. Nagarjuna said there is no “I”. There is no self.

0:30:01.6 Selflessness is the essence of emptiness. But of course, in the Hindu philosophy, I you look. Doesn’t agree with that. Shankaracharya goes on and says Atman does exist. And Nagarjuna says atman does not exist. And the debate is there. However, as wisdom presentation of emptiness, you follow the Nagarjuna’s teaching. Nagarjuna’s presentation of emptiness is the; considered to be the most perfect Buddha’s idea of presentation of emptiness. Wisdom. Which really cuts the root of samsara. Which really cuts the root of samsara. Otherwise, if you are unable to deal with that, I don’t believe the samsaric rules it doesn’t cut. So. So, I have a lot of quotations in here. I’m going to jump that off totally. So, this very presentation of Nagarjuna’s view point of empty, selflessness of empty, is a must for those who are seeking a spiritual development from the Buddha’s way. Either you are going following the sutra alone or you’re following tantra. For tantra it must. But for sutra. Even for sutra it is must. Ok? It is a subject of must. So, now the question rises, “What do you mean by ‘I’-lessness. What do you mean by selflessness? How can you say ‘I-less’, because I am very much here. I’m sitting. I’m talking. I’m listening. I have come from my previous life. I am living through my present life and I will go in my future life. If I do not exist, how can that be possible? How can I talk if I’m not there?” Right? If I’m not there, the chair will be empty. And I’m sure the empty chair will not talk. Unless you put tape recorder there. Right? So, that’s it. That’s it. So, what do you mean by “I-lessness”? That is the question. It does not really mean, I’m not there.

0:33:00.6 You’re getting me? If I’m not there, so I’m supposed to be the base of the functioning of the karma. If I am not there, there’s no karma left. Right? So, when I don’t have karma. So, when the karma. How can karma function? Because karma functions on the basis of people. When people is not there, how can that be possible? Right? So. The question really rises, “What do you mean by ‘I-lessness’?” What kind of I are you talking. Because ordinary I can not be less. It is very much here. I’m here. I’m talking. I’m listening. So, therefore the answer, there are four different Buddhist schools in India during the Buddha’s period came four different answers. Us that I. Presentation of that very I. The lower level says, 0:34:23.8 (Tibetan: ..) Says, permanent, independent, the one. The permanent, the independent, the one is the. Of the I. Is the I which has to be the less I. That is the lowest viewpoint. Independent permanent, the one. 0:34:59.3 (Tibetan:..) The one, which is permanent. The permanent which is independent. So, in other words, they’re trying to say, there’s no such a thing called I which is independent, permanent and all this and that. That is not wisdom. That is even ordinary people will know. Because the I is not permanent. It is because it is impermanent. It is changing. It is subject of changing. Remember? From the childhood, we change every day. Every minute we change. Become bigger and bigger and bigger. And older and older. All this we do. For that we all know. And there is no independent either. And there is no “the one”.

0:36:01.6 I do know there are certain people who teach “the one”. But there is not “the one”. Because there is two always. Always two. So, that was wrong view. Then another group. The half of the Chittamatrins and the others will present 0:36:26.2 (Tibetan: Rang gye..) They are a little better than this. They said, subsidies which is stands by itself. The material which produced the thing. Subsidies.

Audience: Substance

GR: Substance. Sorry. Yeah. That’s it. Substances are independent substances which is stand by itself within the person. Looking inside. Within me. There isn’t independent substance which stands by itself. And less of which is emptiness. That is little better than “the one” business. Permanent the one. That also wrong view. Ok. I do not go reason why this wrong. Because then it will be, we can talk one month on that. Because then we can have counter argument. Counterviews and all of this. We can go this really months. We studied this for two years. Three years. I mean, three years day and night. So. So that’s it on this viewpoint alone. You know? So, that is wrong viewpoint. So then the next step. Next step At the, it’s much better off now. It’s 0:38:07.3 (Tibetan:..) They said, it doesn’t really depends on the mind which perceives, but there are something which produced by itself within me. Within me. You get me? Within me there are certain things which produced, Which produced something called me, which will not depend on other people’s perceptions. Why I’ve been talking the lower viewpoints? Because if I don’t tell you the lower viewpoints a little bit, then the higher viewpoint of the Nagarjuna will not make sense to you at all.

0:39:03.7 So, in order to get some idea of their different viewpoints and particularly this one’s. So, 0:39:16.1 (Tibetan:..) So these people said, there is no such thing which exists from own nature .So, to be exist has to be very much depend on mind which perceive. Anybody follow me? It’s going Tibetan. I’m sorry. What to do. So. So, that is wisdom. So. So, that’s what they mean. They said, to perceive as a so and so, there are something from that. From the nature of that particular person has to be shown that as me. And also the other person has to be recognized, perceived as that particular person. So, without depending on the perception of the third mind, or second mind, there is no subsidy. Or subsidy

Audience: substance

GR: Substance which does not stand from its true nature within I. So, that’s the less of that as a emptiness viewpoints have been started. But Nagarjuna’s true viewpoint even does not accept that. So, Nagarjuna, what he says is. His viewpoints are perfect viewpoints are. 0:41:12.1 (Tibetan: ) Nagarjuna said, (Tibetan:..) When you say, selfless, means self of which will not depend on labelling. I which does not depend on labelling. Label. The name is the label, you know. The article’s been labelled. We labelled this as a mic. Right?

Audience; Label

GR: Label. Ok. Name it. Ok. Thank you. If we don’t label. Without depending on the labelling.

Audience: Label

0:42:01.3 GR: Label and there is nothing exists from its true nature. Ok. Less of that has been introduced as. When you understand that truly and then you begin to. That is true understanding of emptiness. I know you didn’t get anything just now. Doesn’t matter. We’ll come back to that. I mean, just roughly introducing it. Ok. So, in other words, now when they talk about empty and “I-lessness” it does not really mean the I which is the base of all functioning is less. You get me? Because base of I functioning has become less. If that has become less, you have become nihilist. It’s called nihilist. Right? Nihilist. Ok. Can you pronounce that properly for me? Somebody.

Audience: Nihilist

G