Archive Result

Soundfile 19890318GRLR01

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Ann Arbor

Topic Lam Rim

Transcriber Jill Neuwirth

Date 1/12/2025

Audience: … everything that reflected, a little bit like what Catherine was saying in terms of the person mirroring- (Audio cuts and restarts) [0:00:10.9] Rimpoche: … not going to pay you money just because he has to pay, just because there is money. Right? Because he is not going to pay you money because that person has money, right? He’s not going to pay you. That person’s only going to pay you if he is motivated to pay. How can you motivate the person to pay you when you think he get benefitted out of it, he or she gets benefit out of it. Then he or she can- there is no hesitation for he or she to pay more money (Inaudible) [0:00:49.3] because it is motivated, person is motivated. Not at all. If he is not motivated, if he’s sort of forced to do it, he’s not going to do it. He may do it for sake of some people once or twice, but beyond that not going to go through it. Not at all. That’s just a line we draw (?) [0:01:14.7] So similarly, it’s just like, you know, we have no control over our mind. Particularly things we are putting here is totally new to the mind. It’s a total new. It’s a total strange thing, and we’ve never heard about it before. The mind is never used to it, and it’s never seen before, never heard before. But mind is totally used to its opposite, moving opposite direction. Mind is totally following that. So we try to win over that, also has to push ourself in better position, or to do both together. So, only way to do it if you can set it, our mind here. I’ve only sold my ideas to me if I see the thing benefit in there for me. Right or wrong? So that’s what it is. So that way I have to benefit, I have to sell my idea to me and find the benefit. So the first I have to see, hey, this is very important. And I’m not going to convince because I said this is very important. I have to tell how it is important. What is in there which you see and which I don’t see?

[0:02:44.7] Audience: (Inaudible) Rimpoche: So, I will say, yes. There is a great opportunity. Is that what opportunity? I had my life with me, what opportunities they have? What is this? Something more than others have. Then I begin to say, hey, I’ve been fortunate here you’ve been born as a human being. Yeah, so what- right? But if you’re not a human being what will happen? Have you ever thought about it? No. Because I’m always taking for granted. And then I get up in the morning, and I go to bed in the evening, and then the next morning I get up and I’m the same person. Until something happens to me, I will not pay attention. So, let’s say if you are not a human being, do you have all the opportunities that you can do here? Audience: No. Rimpoche: I mean, yeah. We say no. But that’s how we start to think about it. What I’m saying here is, this is how we meditate. Say if you’re in the hell realm, born in hell realm. Oh, don’t forget, Buddhists have hell too. It’s not only the Catholics have hell. (Laughter) Maybe it’s a different hell. The everlasting hell, no. Suppose if you’re in a hell realm at this moment, do you have the opportunity to do something? No, I don’t have opportunity there, right? We’re supposed to be in pain all the time. Right? So how can I have an opportunity? If I have a piece of cigarette and put it here, hey can you read it, can you read that- I mean, if I’m burning here, I can’t think of anything else, I keep saying yes, yes, yes. Because it’s burning here. But on the other hand in the hell we’re supposed burning everything. So, where is the opportunity? We can see it by burning a little cigarette with our hand, and we knew we can’t really do much. So you’re burning everything. So here we don’t have that, that’s why we have opportunity, we can have a free will of doing it. This chance, rather chance than opportunity, a chance. Even hungry ghost, or if I’m animal, or if I’m anywhere else, so I really don’t have a leisure to do something, to do a dharma practice, to gain, to move myself towards my goal, I don’t have opportunity if I’m like that.

[0:06:38.8] So, not only I don’t have a leisure to do something, when I also not have a mind of dharma practice at all. So therefore, when I don’t have a mind of dharma practice, I have no knowledge of dharma practice so therefore where I have opportunity to practice dharma, not only that, not only the little time whatever I have, I have very, very, so many different things to do. So many different things to do. So all of them we have to think about it very carefully. So whatever the life I have, so here we normally- if I’m not going to go much in detail because I want to make it short, but if you’re looking this detail then through the hell realm, through the hungry ghost level, to each one of these levels, you look up. But where you’re looking up is if I’m in that position, I will not have the leisure to do dharma practice. I will not even have a mind of it, practice and dharma. I don’t even know what dharma is, I have no idea about it. I don’t even know that I can be totally free. I can achieve a goal where there is no pains, no misery, no problems, and emotion-free state. I didn’t even know about it. State of blissful, I have no idea about it. So therefore, I definitely have no opportunity. So now I know about, at least I heard about it, at least I can thinking about it. Though I may have doubt or whatever it is, I’m thinking about it, so I begin to again look into the opportunity, I’m going to begin to have it. So, this is important. In normally, you consider the human beings are quite good, but above us we do have that, we do have gods, samsaric gods. That is small ‘g’ god. We think it’s great. Even the samsaric gods will not have opportunity to do this, as we do. With us so busy, they are so busy, in what their pleasure. They’re overbusy with the pleasure and they don’t look, they don’t have, they have no idea about pains, they don’t know about physical, and mental, emotional pains, so they’re not even concerned. They’re so busy enjoying playing whatever it is. Material thing. Interesting. Sariputra, when Buddha was alive, and Sariputra was there. Sariputra was a giving one of his disciples called (Inaudible) [0:10:20.9] a doctor, medical doctor, a disciple.

[0:10:24.0] Sariputra was very much interested to bring that fellow up to the spiritual level. He died. He died and whenever Sariputra sort of, he is a very close relation and Sariputra sort of following him where he’s going after death, so sees him to be reborn as a samsaric god. Sariputra helped him too, by doing all sorts of things. So after he becomes a samsaric god, Sariputra goes there to continue his teaching and bringing him up. So Sariputra goes there, and every time when sees Sariputra, why he always, you know, even during the human being and he used to ride elephant, and when he sees Sariputra, he jumps off the elephant and he says there is no time for elephant to get down. He sort of jumps off elephant and comes running to Sariputra, that’s what happens. So when you become a samsaric god, Sariputra expected that he will do the same thing. Because samsaric gods have the same level as the same thing, they know exactly what is their previous lives. They can see as though something had happened to the human beings yesterday. And they would also see if they would peek, what will be their future life but they would never think about their karma. So knowing that, Sariputra expected that he will come running to him, when he goes there, and he said, hey, hey, hey, and recognize him, and raise his hand and he runs away, because problem is, he is overtaken by this laziness of not going, and sort of pleasure enjoying the pleasure of the samsaric benefits. As an human being, we’re not in that position, so we do have a better opportunity. This is one of the qualities which we human beings enjoy for spiritual benefit which even the samsaric gods doesn’t have it. Are you getting with me, or everybody is not? So, this I recommend it to meditate that way, and when you meditate that way after some time you convince yourself and say here, this is true, and this has a some value here. There is a really (Audience coughs) [0:13:10.7] It is even better than samsaric gods have it. Of course better than hell realm, better than hungry ghost, better than animal. Animal, no matter how intelligent they may be, they may not be able to communicate properly. They communicate to a certain extent, but not so much, even human beings we have problem communicating a lot. But even we speak the same language as a mother tongue, even then we have problem with communication. So the animals bound to have it. Because you know, I said that because a lot of people think, yeah, anyone can parrot can communicate. Sure, the intelligent can communicate, but to what level? To what extent? So that way, this is how we convince ourself when we have to see this is available. This life is available. It’s very important, even for- even you don’t want to do a spiritual practice. Even you just do it and daily material life which even then, to millions of lives importance are very important. [0:14:22.6] So this is a recommended to go and to see till you’re convince yourself beyond the doubt, this line is valid. By seeing the qualities of the leisure and endowment, we haven’t even touch it yet. Okay? Good. I think we have to stop here.

[0:14:59.8] We’re all here now. So every one of those lam rim meditations whenever you do- every time when you do the lam rim meditations and so important to first visualize Lama Buddha Shakyamuni on your crown or in front of you, doesn’t matter. And then also preview- no review, the things which you have already done, such as wherever your development is, and look to the points. And then also overview the incoming ones. And the recommended to combine with the Ganden Lha Gyema is the ge she (Tibetan phrase) [0:16:28.8] I don’t know what that is called in English, I have no idea. And it is there in English, right Aura? What is that called? That’s lam rim shorter one. Aura: I don’t know what it’s called. Rimpoche: What is that? Aura: It’s in Essence of Refined Gold, that’s the translation of it that I’ve used for a long time. Rimpoche: And I think like that one of them is to use it is good. And use it in the sense you should sort of have to say the text, word goes like- (Quotes in Tibetan) [0:17:10.4] Do you remember what the English says, Aura? Aura: Yeah. Rimpoche: Would you repeat? Aura: Following a kind master, foundation of all perfections is the very root and basis of the path. Empower to see this clearly and to make every effort to follow him or her well. Rimpoche: Okay. So, (Quotes again in Tibetan) [0:17:36.2] So when you say these words, and in your meditation like we have Ganden Lha Gyema say and then you think something. Similarly here you say these words, and then think about the stages. Root of all development is guru devotional practice. That also has the benefits to say the (?) [0:18:11.2] And you can know why and all this, then finally say conclusion is no matter whatever, individual person might have been, but for me, for my benefit and it is the representation of the enlightened beings, and representing, and building the connections so therefore it is an enlightened being to me. And when you see, yeah it is very sort of thing, then you concentrate for a little while, and then move to the next, next word. Can you remember the words, Aura? Aura: I must remember that death is quick to strike, for spirit quivers in flesh like a bubble in water. And after death, one’s good and evil deeds trail after one like the shadow trails the body. Rimpoche: It says (reads in Tibetan) [0:19:17.5] So here the order may not be exactly as we went. We went, we talked about the importantness first.

[0:19:28.0] Here and there it comes (Quotes in Tibetan) [0:19:31.8] It says, the point in body, the life what we’ve found is a leisured and endowed- is it endowment or what does it say? Endowment or something. So when you say world of leisure you have think why is there leisure? Leisure of what? And what angle we (Zip sound obscures word) [0:20:00.9] We don’t say I have opportunity, I’m a leisure. No. But we look from the other point of view, other point of view, if I am not human being, if I am the different realm like a hell realm, animal realm, even as a human being, who doesn’t care, and couldn’t care less, and couldn’t bother less about the spiritual. Then I’m not fortunate, I’m an unfortunate person. And in the world, if you look it, probably ninety percent, over ninety percent of the people are born, born as a human being, it’s same as me, and everything the same, is we look the same, we think the same, may not be thinking the same. And we look the same, we hear the same, we smell the same, we touch the same, we sit the same, we go to the same school, and we live in the house, and even we live in the same room. Even we share everything but spiritual, or dharma. That particular person, he or she, wherever it might have been, has no opportunity. Is born as unleisured. It is unleisured person. Though it’s the same thing. Whatever the reason might have been, from his or her point of view, it may be thinking it is useless, senseless for me, crazy, or a hoax, whatever. But, in reality, me, I’m not being in that manner. I’m not being influenced. I’m not being in that manner, so, I’ve been leisured. I have the opportunity, I gained, I’ve become as my life is valuable. And this is an important point here, you see. More the valuable to the individual it is, it is the lesser people there. And I’m fortunate enough to be one of the small number of people who are really taking this opportunity. Even as a human being. Even as the period where this very methods are available, even then a number of people cannot take the benefit. Most- as a matter of fact, most of them cannot. Some, just don’t have opportunity, some just don’t believe it, or don’t even talk about it, they don’t want to think about it. And some are engaged in some small little thing, it’s a not really a complete path of from this level, this ordinary level, to the total enlightenment level, or there are thousands of different states you have involved and they don’t have it.

[0:23:20.3] Even those of you who are having some spiritual path. Many of them are just satisfied or just is stuck with their few practices, maybe one or two ways to think on something. Maybe even for a Buddhist, even for vajrayana practitioners, few are just only be able to say few mantras, and so they can get some mala in hand and keep on yang, yang, yang with the mantra and that’s about it. And so then they have to totally depend their total benefit is through mantra power and though some kind of blessing almost like hoping for magic type of thing. Which is not a totally useless, but it’s better than nothing, but it’s not so great as I have opportunity here to do it. So when you’re compared the opportunity of the individual with non-human beings, and human beings, and among the human beings, those who think in the spiritual path and those totally ignoring it. So then you still go beyond the those who are thinking of the spiritual path, but most of the spiritual practitioners in the United States, if you look, how many really have from this angle to the leading to the enlightenment level, very few. A very few. Less than you can count on the fingertip is less. Even less than that. Very, very few. Many who think spiritual practice is also something. So maybe then I was confused. When the few people come around and say well, I’d like to see what Buddhism is about it. And come around one or two talks, and then they say, yeah, yeah, I know about that. I know about that, I heard about it. When did you hear? About, oh in nineteen-eighty so-and-so, in a certain place. And that’s about it. So they think that is total Buddhism. And you don’t blame to those people, because their only customs of spiritual practice means somebody sort of gives one talk and they tell you what to do about it, and they go on doing it, and that’s about it. And nothing more, nothing less. So, which is very, very limited. And we have beyond that, I mean, way beyond that level. And we at least see there are steps, these are the spiritual steps is not a step an individual climbing on, but the step that is pushes individual on them within the does. And also the stages, what we’re going to talk, is a spiritual stages. Which one motivates to the others. Which one pushes to the other. This is sort of become a cause and effect, and every path, the beauty of it is the path before is the result of the cause of the path after. When we recognize it is the legend and the rich. And if you be able to gain realization or at least convincing it of it and then it automatically will push you to know it is important. And if you don’t recognize the quality of the life, then here we go and say it is important. Yes, it is important. But you don’t really see it, how important it is. So, to feel bad about wasting of it, it needs to have a very good convincing of it’s valuable. And in order to recognize its value, first you recognize the life itself. The qualities of the life itself.

[0:28:16.4] So we talked about the leisures, not only that, there is endowment right? There are five plus five. Right Aura? Yeah. What are the five? Briefly. There are five. Aura: To be born in the center, which means a place where this content, being born as a human being. Being born with all the five senses. Being born with the faith in the triple jewel. Being free of wrong views. Being born in a place where the dharma teachings are available. Being born in a place where teachings are still available. Being born in a place where practitioners are available. Being born in a place where sangha is available. Being born in a place where results are available. Rimpoche: Is that right? Mig me (Recites in Tibetan) [0:29:39.2] Born as a human being, then also not only a human being, being a center place. Center place meaning a center of practice. (Discusses with audience) [0:29:58.2] And you also have a- you’re also not born something where you look down on the karmic system. And be place where the Buddha, dharma, and sangha is available. And teaching’s available, and someone who has some sort of reliable one who can have can build a rely on Buddha, dharma, and sangha. I thought that’s five, isn’t it? The same as you mentioned, Aura? Okay, that’s five. (Quotes in Tibetan) [0:30:43.7] These are the five endowments that you get from your point of view. Then five more environment from the time point of view. Sang gye (Quotes in Tibetan) [0:31:01.5] In a time that Buddha had come. Teachings of the Buddha still exist. Though, if you can think about it, it is a very difficult to get a human life. And also it is most probably that even you get it one, you get it even before the pre Buddha period, or after the teachings of the Buddha completely disappeared on this earth. Could be very wrong time. And we are fortunately not before, and fortunately on time. The teaching still remains. Not only the teachings still remains but the Buddhist practice is still going on. Not only is practice still going on, there are friends, sangha practitioners there, to help, to guide to consult, to support. There are five of them right? Sang gye (Recites in Tibetan) [0:32:13.9] One is missing. Yes, results are still possible. Not only is still possible, it is more possible. This sort of time, it is almost time of Kaliyuga or degenerated age, it’s almost. It’s almost at the verge of it now. We’re almost at end of it. And at this time, it is possible to work? Even better than earlier times. Particularly vajrayana practice. Particularly that of the female tantra practice, through which it becomes much more, much more, um, tangible than ever before. So we’re not only have a time that the results can be obtained, but result can be obtained quite easily if we have given ourself enough chance to do it, quite easily. It almost verge of the- just before the degenerated age. It’s degenerated age, period, no doubt. But still it’s not completely over yet, and just before it, so there is a great chance in that. A great, great chance. So think about all this, and then appreciate each point you have obtained, and appreciate. And then begin to see, and then you have to do this, keep on thinking, meditating, stopping, coming back, meditating, stopping, till you are actually convinced, hey, yeah, really this isn’t something very extraordinary. Hey- it is something very important when you see it. I mean we’re not on a program important but we should really see it, hey, this is not a simple thing. It is little more than- it is something.

[0:34:55.5] When you begin to see that, then you really recognizing the life and not understanding of the importantness of life but you just simply recognize. Even you recognize the life and that is a stage, a spiritual stage within you. Unshakable recognition of the life when you develop that within you, and that means you have developed a spiritual stage with you. Sounds like a funny when you look at- I have the life, that’s mine with me all the time, when I see it what am I gaining (Inaudible) [0:35:38.5] Yes, you gain. You gain the recognition that is first step here. And if you put a little efforts, looking into here, and it’s not difficulty to see it. And quite easily you can see it. The moment you see it as an important, I don’t think it’s difficult for you to appreciate it. When you appreciate it without, you know, you are telling you have to appreciate, without telling, sort of really motivated by seeing the qualities in your life, and then you really appreciate it, that brings happiness to you. It works against bad emotions too. It is also the first step of development. And that will definitely go against certain emotions. More and more so. Once you develop quite good happiness of recognizing that, you can look everywhere. The second point, yeah if this is the life, and this is important to me, is it important to me? It is definitely very important. Because I see these qualities there, so naturally it is an important, me, a spiritual development seeker, me a buddhahood seeker? One who seeks buddhahood? This is the most important thing for me. Why it is important? I can achieve things here which I cannot achieve any other life. Same as when we look for leisure and endowments will be the same. If we were born in samsaric god, I cannot achieve any spiritual development, because I fail to see the reality of the life. I fail to see the nature of suffering because there is no direct sufferings. So I don’t see the suffering, I don’t see the problem. So when I don’t see a problem, I don’t look for getting out of it. When I don’t look for getting out of it, I’m subject to the pain, which is there, so but I cannot see it, if you are samsaric god. You can be born as an animal. Then I’m even worse. I can’t see the value of life. I cannot think it. If I am born as animal, and there’s I cannot think of the value of life. I could not understand nature of life, I cannot understand suffering. I cannot understand the problem. I cannot understand the method of how to take care of from this problems. So the spiritual development’s out of question. So it is an important. So it is an important here. Things like that, you know and try to draw conclusion and until you seek and say hey, it is very important. When you begin to see hey, this is an important, very, very important. Then you concentrate on that, concentrate and you meditate on that. The reason why, analytical we first do thinking about it, we give all the doubts whether it is important or not important and all this. And after argument and dialogue on that with yourself, and finally you really came to the point of hey, it is a really important, no doubt about it. And then you concentrated on that you will be developed a unshakable a strong acceptance of that.

[0:40:08.7] That when you develop unshakable strong acceptance, if somebody else says hey, you are wrong. It’s not so important, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they can’t talk to you, they cannot persuade you, there will be quite a (Inaudible) [0:40:27.4] on it. Because you gain a proper understanding of it. I have not only proper understanding, you have proper concentration on it. You have proper concentration on it, you really gain, you stabilize that. You adopt that part of your life. You see that part of life. And when you see that part of life, you cannot be persuaded to shift to the other way around. And that is sort of another second step it fills you. Things like that, you follow everything one after another. But, everything’s possible when you have somebody who can guide you unmistakably on proper path, and when somebody can follow it properly, buddhahood is not that difficult, it’s not that far. San gye la (Recites in Tibetan) [0:41:26.0] One can be produced buddha as somebody who making a sculpture here. And when there is a proper guide, and there is a proper method, and there’s a proper practice, I don’t see there is any problem at all. It’s not hard, it is hard, but not that hard. It is not impossible, it is possible. It is something we can achieve within the lifetime, It is something that individual with seek go much beyond where we are. It is something that individual control the past and present and future life. It is something where the individual really when you die, there’s something solid, solidness, even before you die, you have the solidness, and death will become some kind of changing of clothes. Like throwing old dress and getting new dress on it. And all these are not difficult. It is possible. But we have to put a little effort. Not too much, little efforts. Efforts that will not burn us out. Effort that we can go slowly and steady. Can achieve. I think that’s how you meditate. What I’m talking to you, is I’m not lecturing, I’m just saying it how you meditate, okay? There you go. I guess that’s that for tonight. Thank you and I’m sorry tomorrow I won’t be here, but still Aura and Sandy are going to be here, and everybody here you can discuss among yourself, and maybe you can go one or two more steps down and make use of it benefit. And it is important because I must tell you one thing. One last Tuesday, I was not there, I was in Holland. And Aura and Sandy had gone to Mexico and it’s automatically and (Inaudible) [0:44:11.6] is possible, and Aura and Sandy have been with me studying since eighty, right? Or seventy-nine. Aura: 1980. Rimpoche: Eighty. So naturally people who have been with me in eighties are not there, so it’s falls on people who have been with the eighty-five, mid-eighties, so they did wonderful job. They were very happy, and everybody’s happy, and you did a great job. And same thing goes.

[0:45:03.9] Aura: It seems like there’s a few things we’re supposed to do today, and I was thinking of- it is important when you have an opportunity for any questions from yesterday we (Inaudible) [0:45:25.5] not a lot of opportunity to talk about things and as group we really have that opportunity, in fact we haven’t really (Inaudible) [0:45:39.1] So it seems like that would be a useful thing to do, as well as possibly part of that being doing some kind of meditative review of some of these outlines and utilizing opportunity to do some guided analytical meditations on some of these subjects so that we all will have the shared experience of how to work with the topics and yesterday Rimpoche was kind of like at the end, like you were saying, this is the way you’re supposed to meditate, it was seeming to me that it would be good to do something along those lines with some of the subjects. One of the things that- I’ll just put this out, but we’ll see where everybody else is at, it seems like there were a lot of questions and need to talk about things in the area of guru devotion in particular that we didn’t really get to get into. And Sandy and I talked about that Rimpoche indicated that he felt that would be something that would be very useful for us to do when he’s not here in a lot of ways. So, that certainly someplace to start, but I feel that before getting into any kind of review of outlines or things like that, it would be nice to have more of a talk among all of us and sharing and questions and discussions on what we want to focus on. (Inaudible, discusses with audience) [0:47:33.5] The seven words? You mean like, other than praise and purification, that kind of thing? (Audience discusses, Inaudible) [0:47:57.1] (Audience discusses the difference between seven limb prayer and puja) Aura: It’s called the seven branch prayer, seven limbed prayer. Audience: It says seven-limbed puja. Aura: For our purposes- this is like basically the seven limbs brought down to- (Audience discusses confusion over terms) [0:49:02.2] It’s just like the branches of a tree, the idea is that- I think there’s just seven because the way the story is told is that when all the great spiritual teachers and masters and enlightened ones kind of got together to, alright, you know, people are basically lazy and they’re not really going to have the time to do all these things, and they’re going to have to have some kind of practice that is going to help them become liberated, but we can’t really make it too complex, because it just won’t happen for most individuals, so if we have to refine things down, like the basic essential elements, like what’s the fundamental necessary element, these are the seven things that one person has to have in order to be able to- it’s like the seven most important aspects of the spiritual practice. And there happens to be seven, but there isn’t a lot of discussion given to why there are seven, per se, it’s just that the seven are what turned out. And so they’re called the seven limbs of the practice that you have to have, or that are really like the most conducive to spiritual development, if you include those seven. And having it in this form, you can very briefly go through things if you’re doing the visualizations, you can be covering all those bases.

[0:50:27.2] Like limbs of a tree, yeah. (Audience laughs over confusion over the word limb) Audience: I would really like to talk more about the guru relationship and I’d like to know it’s so long it’s been and vow and you and Sandy because I know that has evolution and um, I think that’s one of my biggest barriers to study such as, that’s kind of against my personal tradition and I would like to not be critical (Inaudible) [0:51:45.2] Aura: Can I ask you what you think it is that’s against your personal tradition? What are you thinking that is against your personal tradition? Cause that will help me understand- Audience: Empowering someone else. Aura: So that’s what you see- Audience: And at one point I was warned not to empower someone else with those empowerments that I need to empower myself with, that I mean, I don’t know how to explain it much better than that. Aura: But it’s like you’re saying that what you understand, guru devotion practice is transferring your power onto another person? Audience: I empower someone else. I’m not sure that’s a very helpful thing for that other person. I don’t know I see there being separation then (Inaudible) [0:52:43.9] Aura: Does anyone want to say anything about that? Audience: If we’re tape recording this for other people, it’s not going to pick up people speaking very quietly (Discusses audio issues) [0:52:59.3] Aura: I was understanding that it has to do with sort of a history of the way of seeing things or experiences. Audience: I’d like to say two things. One is that I’ve been practicing for four years, but on my own. And I am extremely grateful to have found a teacher and living in Middlebury, Indiana perhaps gives me a little bit different perspective because it’s not very frequently that many teachers come though Middlebury. (Audience laughs) For me to have found a teacher is like, amazing. And the other thing is that personally I feel in terms of empowering, that Rimpoche is just reflecting me, to me. And so, any power that he has is really me anyway. Now I may be totally off base, but that’s what my experience so far, and it’s been very limited has been that I’m just saying me, if he does something and I say what was that, that was- he was certainly acting such and such a way or something. And then I know, well, that’s me. That’s the way I act. Or he did something silly and I didn’t realize until much later when I was meditating, that was me- that was the perfect thing for me, at that point. That’s my two cents.

[0:55:29.3] Aura: (Inaudible) A couple things, a lot of things, actually, that stirred up. One is that, I think that when you- if you want to learn a new skill, if you want to learn how to be a carpenter, I mean, people don’t have any qualms about going to somebody who is a master carpenter or even somebody who has a lot of information, and a lot of knowledge about carpentry, and you know, study with them, and to take their advice if they say it’s really best to put it together this way, you know, fine. And you still have your own sense about whether that works or not, you still have your integrity for judgment of whether that works or not, but we rely on teachers in all aspects of life, and it just it seems when it comes to the spiritual field that people have this issue about it. Like, there we can’t deal with the issue, why is that any different? Why wouldn’t we rely on somebody who has already attained some level of mastery. Who already knows more than what we know. Right? So that’s one reaction. Another thing is that I think the idea about in this practice of guru devotion is that it’s not just anybody necessarily, it is, but, it’s that you have to first go through a selection process where you’re not just going to any teacher, any person who says that they’re a teacher, you have to go through and really screen out and decide is this person somebody that I could take their advice. Is it somebody that really has something to offer me and to really check it out and check the references or whatever it is you feel you need to do and then say yes, you know, I’ve- this is somebody I feel that I can rely on or I’m willing to take teachings and I’m realizing that that process of selection that’s useful to come first and then the idea about the relationship that’s established is supposed to follow. It’s really geared toward once you already have a relationship. And then, you know, all these other things apply. I don’t know about- I’m positive from my own experience, that Rimpoche is not, and the other great teachers that I’ve met, they are not getting anything out of being- I mean, they’re not getting off on it. They’re absolutely not, you know, grooving on, that role, you know? (Audience laughs) I’m sure about that. And so I really think that the bottom line of what it boils down to is one’s own benefits really true. I really see that that’s true. And I really think there’s a lot confusion around this issue of what is the right relationship with the spiritual teacher. From what I’ve seen, I think that Rimpoche empowers us to attain that same level ourselves. It’s not like he’s saying, I’ve attained this and you can’t attain this, the only thing you can do is be nice to me, you know? (Audience laughs) Giving us a set of tools what that is empowering us. He isn’t like keeping it a secret and saying, oh, I’m so great, you know, like, just bask in my presence. All he’s doing is just passing on, the information that has been passed along and passed along and passed along that works and that’s what he’s doing as far as I see. And so I know a lot of people that have this issue, it’s like they can’t just accept that that seems like a better good to not have a spiritual teacher to say that you’ve done it yourself. But I think that’s really an egotistical standpoint, because what have we really done totally ourselves? We have done everything with the assistance of other people, friends, and our parents, and other people that have helped guide us, so…

[1:00:09.8] My perspective. Audience: I want to tell you that’s probably the most helpful thing that I have personally found, to answer this question is, not so much Rimpoche that I’m not wanting to be open about, cause I don’t know all those answers, that you spoke about, I think time and other things will help me with that, has been a sense of the sangha which I’m very grateful for. This has been where I personally have felt most comfortable and just wanted to express an appreciation for that part that I can- I have a better way to evaluate for myself, so… Audience2: There’s also a very interesting thing that the buddha, or the guru, or the spiritual friend and the sangha and the dharma as being kind of like, you know, if you think about the Christian tradition, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it’s trinity relationship where- I don’t mean to go into this now, but there’s a whole relationship where they’re really all the same thing. The individual, whether it’s a sangha spiritual community or one above, or a spiritual friend, or the lama, is only as good as the sangha, is only as good as the dharma, dharma is only as good as- they all have this interesting co-creative relationship I think. Aura: I’d like to address that point, actually, I think it’s an important point because I think that when we get into what you’re talking about, you absolutely lose the relativity of your existence, and you lose the ability to discriminate and make choices about things in your life. When we do that, when we, you know, when we start, because you know on one level it is true, it is certainly true that everything is one, and everything is like everything else, and we’re all together in this, and there’s no difference between the master and disciple, there’s no difference between nirvana and samsara. I mean, you can read the teachings they’ll all say samsara and nirvana the same thing, you know? You’ll see there’s not an atom of difference between samsara and nirvana. And yet, from the point of view of self-development, from the point of view of spiritual development that we are seeking, it’s really important- you know, I mean, from what limited understanding I have, and the practice that I’ve done, I can’t imagine that if you lose that relativity, that you can get anywhere. Because everything is just like one big soup and everything- it’s so east to rationalize everything about our existence somehow, everything just becomes this situation when we do that, we all in different ways have that side to different degrees, but I think it’s really important when we’re talking about things like guru relationship, to be able to recognize that there’s a relative level at which this person is the teacher and you are the student. Ultimately speaking, it’s totally different, of course. And it’s important to know that. Because if you lose that, then you’re in trouble too, cause then reality becomes too fixed. Everything becomes too solid, you know, and you can’t see past that.

[1:03:12.8] But if you let that go, you get nowhere. You spin in the eternal nothing. You don’t have the integration. So, I’m really glad you brought that up because I think that that’s an underpinning- Audience2: Yeah the relative and the ultimate are two different- it’s true. Aura: And they’re related, I mean, but they’re dependent upon each other for relationship, and you can’t transcend them without recognizing them both. And also I think particularly the thing that was really arising for me around that is the ability to discriminate. Because part of what we’re talking about when we talk about guru devotion, I think the chord that it hits- I mean when I was hearing what Jane was presenting as like there’s this fear about losing one’s capacity to discriminate about life. There’s like a fear of losing one’s capacity to make decisions, losing one’s capacity to face life, to be a person, an individual, and to be somehow that that’s gone. And my sense is that when you go into that absolute and you really are entertaining that loss, because you don’t, you’re ability to discriminate about the relative existence of things and make decisions becomes very clouded, it is very difficult to see. And so I think particularly when we’re talking about guru devotion it’s really important to have that relative perspective at the same time as seeing, you know, the absolute existence of it, and the sort of emptiness of it. That obviously this person, in the ultimate standing isn’t your teacher, and you’re their student and all of that. But relatively speaking, it’s a choice of whether they are or not. Audience2: Can I ask a question? Is the guru or the lama in this particular sense Rimpoche, but in other senses in Woodstock it’s another one, is the lam rim guru, could one say that he or she is the representative of your own true self or your highest self or whatever, spiritual self? Would you say that, or would you say that’s not true either? Aura: I think again that it goes back to you have your own self and they have their own self. They’re not representing your true self. You’re representing your true self, relatively. You are yourself, and I am myself, and my teacher isn’t representing myself. That’s for me to do. That’s for me to develop and for me to do. So I wouldn’t say that they represent my true self, but I do would say that when you choose to take someone as a spiritual guide, to accept someone as a spiritual guide, because there has to be a mutual acceptance there. They have to accept you, and you have to accept them. Otherwise, you’re just listening to talks, attending talks, and all these things that Rimpoche was talking about as far as anger towards the teacher and all those things, they have no relevance if you haven’t accepted that person as the teacher and they haven’t accepted you. You know, then you’re free to do and think whatever you want, because you haven’t established that that’s the kind of base you’re sharing. But once that’s established, then that person is representing all the enlightened as an embodiment of the enlightened and reflects for you the qualities that you seek to develop within yourself.

[1:06:38.4] So I wouldn’t say- you’re not going to become them. The goal is not to become them. Although the goal might be inseparability on a mind heart level, but that’s different. Inseparability still implies togetherness and individuality. So I wouldn’t say that the person represents your own true self. Audience: I think the point you were making about discriminating is really important. I was thinking about it after this (Inaudible) [1:07:16.5] with anger to be one of the poisons, and I was tending to put back and forth between two of them, Kathy’s point was really a valuable one when one is dealing with anger, there’s a value to focusing on that and not pushing it together. And in some way, I think well maybe ultimately you might be saying to the teacher and all things really the same to in the process of learning from the teacher to see, the teacher as the teacher with things like stages of the path, whether objective things to learn. But still you’re doing both at the same time. Aura: But that’s the challenge, because we’re always falling into one or the other and we tend to fall to one side or the other at different points in different ways, but yeah- I do feel like there’s this fundamental issue around losing one’s discriminative abilities that lies at the root of a lot of fears around guru devotion. And that’s why it’s really important to address the relative and absolute issue. Particularly in this vein. I’m really glad that Robert brought that up because it does tie into that, that ability to discriminate. Does someone want to say anything, because I was going to address a little bit more, but I can wait on that, just the relationship to the teacher. Audience: It seems to me that in my experience, the difference between all things are the same is what, kind of what we were talking about yesterday. For me, that’s on the intellectual level. I don’t know that. But what I know, what I’m doing it laying out here on some beginning level of practice. So those two things exist that in terms of knowing that, that I feel. Aura: I think that even if you do know it on a more intuitive level, even if it’s beyond your intellect, and you do have some intuitive understanding of it, it’s still dangerous to fall into that as a whole perspective. In fact, it could be more dangerous because you’re somewhat connected to that intuitively, and then it’s really hard to shake it as being this is the whole reality.

[1:09:40.1] And then, that’s when our discriminative abilities really start to fail. Not through the relationship to the teacher, but to that loss of perspective internally. And I think that’s what we’re really more subject to than the other. But the other somehow represents that for us. And part of it is because of the whole guru trip that’s gone on in the west and our not understanding that, and our going to such extremes and being total individualists. It’s kind of the western culture. We have no sense of “we”. One of the things that was amazing to me when I traveled in the east was that people when they would draw pictures of themselves, it would be like their village, you know- me and my village, me and my house, and my parents, and there was like this real we consciousness. And here, you know, we don’t have that, we have this I consciousness. So, it’s so extreme you want to break free of that, so we flung to the other extreme of I have to give everything and I do everything, but that’s our own weakness. That’s because we are so out of balance on the other side, and it also can be reflective of teachers that are inappropriately guiding, and who knows, really, but I think it’s a combination of those things. Audience: I can go a little further with that. When Gelek brought up the example yesterday if a teacher tells you that some on a matter of fact, and he’s just wrong, then you’re not supposed to tell him he’s wrong, because you’re imagining that he’s the Buddha. That’s where it gets to be a problem, like when the levels are confused. My level of understanding after what people talked about, is Gelek the teacher? No, Tsong Khapa is the teacher! No, the Buddha is the teacher. No, these five buddhas are the teacher! And you have to absolutely obey one of them but we won’t tell you which one it is. Or when he’s there. (Audience laughs) If you don’t understand right now, you know, it’s that kind of confusion. And it seems to me, that related issue is, the way Gelek presented was you know ultimately it’s your own dharma that’s going to save you and it’s your own buddha that you’re after. Then there’s these very tricky questions of when you, if you mistakenly perceive a buddha as just a regular person, you really missed the point. I think the other side is also true, I think mistakenly project this authority on someone who doesn’t have it, as a matter of fact you are wrong. And that is important to see. If someone thinks that I’m the buddha, in a relative sense, I would hasten to concur to the fact that is not the case. (Audience laughs) But if some regular guy is telling me that I should see him as the buddha, and that I have eighteen fingers on this hand, I would have to say as a matter of fact, this is not true. I have four fingers on this hand. And if you try to tell me to skip thinking anymore, because now we’re in this relationship where I have to see you as the buddha and I can’t see reality as I see it anymore, that’s where it gets to be a kind of confusing issue. Especially when he was saying yes, you really can’t contradict the teacher. Even in matters of fact. Aura: Well, that’s a really important point of what you’re bringing up and I think that I’d like to address that because I have been engaged in this kind of relationship for a while and I’ll just express to you what my experiences with that.

[1:13:11.2] I think that a lot of the things that you’re presenting are based on- they don’t reflect, for me, any of the experience that I’ve had. I think they’re based on fears around that experience arising and what would I do if that experience arose. I don’t sense that it’s actually based on something that is actually going on. I’ve never experienced Rimpoche telling me, you really have a nose on your heel, and I have to say yes, I do. I’ve never experienced Rimpoche telling me really you have four heads. You think you have one, but you have four. And me saying, yes, you’re right Rimpoche, I have four heads. I’ve never had that kind of experience and yet, I think that that danger is there in terms of first a couple things. One is making a decision about who are you going to trust spiritually and to what degree? And I think when you’re talking about a spiritual guide, it’s more than just somebody who’s going to give you directions from here to downtown Detroit, where if they don’t give you such good directions it might take you longer to get there, you’re going to be irritated, you get lost, maybe you won’t get to downtown Detroit, maybe you will, it’s not a lot lost. You’re talking about putting your spiritual life, which is your whole life. I mean it’s more- this life is just going to come and go. Your spiritual life is really the sum total of your existence in a lot of ways. If you put that and say I’m going to entrust this person to help guide me with that, you’re talking about a very serious decision. You’re not talking about, well, you know, if this is the wrong choice, it’ll take me a little longer to get there, and you could really end up having a lot of serious problems that would take very, very long time to rectify internally. So I think there’s important reasons for feeling caution about it and for feeling like, I don’t want to just readily give this away just like your most precious objects. You know, somebody wants a cup of tea, well you make it for them, but if they say oh I’d like your stove and refrigerator and this and that, you’re going to think about it. You’re not just going to say oh yeah, take it. Unless you’re really at that state where you know very clearly that you can manage without it. From a pragmatic point of view, you’re going to have to evaluate before you make that choice.

[1:15:29.3] And so this is talking about in many ways, the most important decision you’re going to make. It’s much more important than your marriage partner, and these other things which you can change, it might screw you up or might help you, it’s really- and yet those are the things we think of our jobs and our partners and our family we think of those as being our life’s biggest decisions, but this is really has much more pervasive ramifications. I think that when you’re talking about making that kind of decision, you really have to look, and that’s why in terms, in the Buddhist teachings, why it is continually enforced, you have to look at the source. You really have to look where does this come from? Where has this led people? What does this path say that it does? You know what does it advertise? Generally kind of get what you offer, it’s like, okay, we’re say that we’re taking you from here to there, we have these people that are going to talk to you about it, you listen to what they have to say, you see whether it rings true or not. And then you have the individual person or persons that you make contact with that are closer exemplaries of that path. And you have to make both the discriminative and intuitive choice. And both of them have to be there or you’ll never manage about whether that person is in a position to really guide you. And one quality that’s necessary for that is their qualifications, and the other is your relationship to their qualifications. Because somebody could be very qualified, but you don’t have the right hook up with them. And you know it’s just not going to be the right chemistry for that relationship to occur. So I think that it’s important to look at that and evaluate that. Then, however, when you accept someone, if and when, you’ve evaluated, you’ve assessed, you’ve tested, you’ve checked, you’ve looked within your heart, you’ve checked all your modes of checking, and you determined that you really feel that this person- I know for myself when I- well, in my particular circumstance I had such a profound intuitive experience when I first met Rimpoche, I didn’t even know if he was a Rimpoche. I don’t think I shared that with this group, but it might be relevant to share at this time. When I was in India I had studied with many people, many great masters. Sandy and I were there together and we had, just been incredibly fortunate to have been, not just in the presence of the table to receive teachings from- well, many of them are now dead, the greatest, old, living masters in Tibet, and that was sort of in the last years of their life at that time. And we were feeling both pretty full with- we really weren’t really like, looking for an additional guru to heap on the pile (Laughs) We were very satisfied, we had more than we thought we could digest in this life, was where we were at, at that point. I was preparing to do a retreat, and I had received some teachings for that retreat and I was in front of the library in Dharamsala I was just hanging out in front of the library. (?) Rimpoche was talking about Tilopa and the fisher, and I was really thinking about my experience with Rimpoche in the business suit (Laughs) I was talking with Mel, who turned out to be Mel Goldstein who Rimpoche, some of you know, has a very close working relationship with, he goes to Cleveland regularly, Case Western. They’ve been involved scholastically on his Tibetan research projects for probably twenty years. So I was talking to this man who turned out to be Mel Goldstein and we’re chatting away, and I see a few people standing around, and one of them is this Tibetan guy in a business suit and a few other people. And at that point I have never had the experience of meeting someone who is considered to be as profound and highly realized of a teacher as Rimpoche that wasn’t a monk, and didn’t have a retinue, and where I didn’t have some predisposition to the idea that this person was illumined, right? So, I couldn’t- part of me was always saying, well, but you know, what part of you is just responding to this person because they’re up on this throne, and you know, all these other things. Of course, my nature is to pretty critically evaluate things and so I always had this little bit of hesitation even though I trusted my experience, I wasn’t completely convinced somehow, because I knew that there’s a lot that can into the creation of drama around a space and how that can affect our experience.

[1:20:08.6] So this guy comes over and we’re chatting away, and um, you know, he tells me he lives in Delhi and I offer him a peanut, and we’re just talking, and he says maybe you should come to Delhi sometime? And I said, oh, never. I’m in the Himalayas, you know? (Laughs) I’m a Himalayan baby, you know? I was never going to leave, right? I didn’t know I’d end up spending three months in the hottest part of the year in Delhi at that time. I said, well, no, no I’m going to stay in the mountains, but… He says, well, if you ever come to Delhi, you have to visit. I said, oh, that’s fine, I will. And so then they were ready to part, and this all lasted about five minutes, ten minutes, maybe. And I said, well, it’s been really nice meeting you, and I extended my hand to shake his hand. And when he extended his hand to shake my hand and shook my hand, I had up to that point in my life, the most profound experience of my life. I felt like every- absolutely every cell on my body was experiencing some sort of cellular- and I just looked at this person- I really- you know I really- I thought this was just this businessman. I looked at him and I said, who are you?? And I was holding his hand (Audience laughs) Who are you, who are you? I mean, I knew… I absolutely knew it was not about, you know- and this is the venerable so-and-so, and everybody claps and they come down. It wasn’t about that at all. And he just laughed. He wouldn’t tell me who he was. He goes, oh, I’ll see you later. (All laugh) And he just walks away! And I’m standing there, you know, like having this total gel out physically, I don’t know what’s just happened to me. And I was with this friend of mine who happened to know Rimpoche and he is laughing uproariously because he knows Rimpoche. And I’m just saying Bruce, what is so funny? I mean, who is this person, I’ve got to see this person again. And he said, well that’s Gelek Rimpoche. And when he said that, I knew that Rimpoche meant, you know, that it was a title that was given to incarnate lamas. So soon as he said Rimpoche, then I immediately knew and was so embarrassed about the whole thing. And as I was feeling like the lowliest little worm, I look up and Rimpoche is about fifty feet away, and he’s like (Makes waving motion, audience laughs) waving like that. I’m sure that anyone who knows Rimpoche could see him doing that, you know? He’s like (Makes waving gesture, all laugh) And I was just completely blown away. And then I went to do this retreat, and Sandy did not meet him at that time. And she went on to Delhi with the same friend of ours and met him at a later point, and as a result of that, then we started studying together in Delhi. But so, the reason- I brought that for a number of reasons. One is that I think it’s useful to share that, and it’s helpful to give that perspective. But also because I think that when you’re talking about the spiritual teacher that there’s a sense where even given that, that I had that experience, I mean, I had immediate and total feeling of relationship to this person. And I had had, like I said, you know with the Dalai Lama and many other of the great teachers, I felt profound relationship, but this was sort of qualitatively, it stood out in terms of what I was personally experiencing. I still, still, had doubts and questions and issues every day, you know, all the time.

[1:24:03.9] I mean, even that wasn’t enough to just eliminate that process, you just go well, I’m totally surrendered now, and if you tell me I have five toes, I’ll say no, I have six, whatever, you know that back and forth thing. So I think that there is a level where part of it is just having to go through our own process. But in my experience with Rimpoche, I have found that Rimpoche never tells me, he never infringes on my reality. He only infringes on my delusions. I’ve never, ever experienced an infringement on my reality as a result of the relationship with him and I have been with him many times, day in, day out, day in, day out, for a long period of time, and I’ve never had the experience that he has infringed on my perceptions of things, on my feelings about things, on my thoughts about things, on my way of seeing or looking, in terms of my own development. But I continually experience, and the part that is the hardest, is that I continually experience an infringement on my delusions, all the time. Sometimes when I’m really fed up with it, you know, constant, it’s like always there. And sometimes, I don’t want to acknowledge it as being such, and I’m just not in the mood to acknowledge it as being such, so I just walk away, you know? And he doesn’t say, you can’t walk away. If I can’t deal with it, I’ll just say I can’t deal with this, I’m going upstairs, you know? And I do. And I have absolute perfect freedom in my individuality in that regard. In fact, the relationship inspires freedom. Because the relationship to someone who is free inspires freedom. And a relationship to someone who is bound inspires bondage. It brings you closer to that. And when you’re in relationship, the freer the person is- just like when you’re with someone where their heart is open, you experience your heart being more open. When you’re with somebody where their heart is closed, it may or may not close your heart, but you feel the discomfort of it. You feel that it’s more challenging to be around that. And when you’re with someone as Rimpoche is, or like Rimpoche, other people that have a similar capacity to embody what they talk about, to really reflect what they present. I read this great thing where someone said that Tibetan Buddhism was the only religion that was better in its practice than its preaching. And I find that to be true. But when you are in relationship to someone like that, you are so much closer to being free, because that person isn’t going to be tied up by anything that you do. You could do anything, anything, and they can take it. I mean, you know, you talk about our relationships with people, they’re filled with all kinds of, well, I can’t do this because they won’t like that, or this might end the relationship, or I can’t do that, or I shouldn’t look at them this way, or maybe I should be that way, and our relationship is so fraught with all of that kind of interactive persona, mask-making, that’s why mask-making is such a good thing for us to do because it helps us experience how we do it without the mask. It’s not that mask-making itself is so great, but you make the mask, and then you experience what you’re living like all the time, except you can do it more freely when you’ve got something else on your face, you know? So when you’re talking about the relationship with someone who, through your experience you know is, if not totally free, so much freer than you are. And you know it because you see it happening all the time. You see that nothing bothers them. You know, when you see, day in and day out, no matter what happens, no matter what it is, if it’s surgery, it’s surgery. If it’s death, it’s death. If it’s promotion, it’s a promotion. They’re fine. They’re just fine because they absolutely know that they’re fine, right? When you see that someone, no matter what you do, they don’t really care. They’re really connected to you on a spiritual level. They’re not looking at, well, I like you today because you look really nice. I don’t like you today because you barfed on my lap, that type of thing (Laughs) There’s a whole transformation metamorphosis that takes place within the individual about their attitude towards themselves. There’s at least the opportunity for that so coherently and clearly, that doesn’t- and then can so much be applied in our life, and I think that the relationship to the spiritual teacher can be the most liberating thing in one’s life. And in my life it has been.