Archive Result

Soundfile 19900414GRAALR1

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Ann Arbor

Topic Lam Rim:

Transcriber Matthew McKinley

Date 11/4/2023

[Audio cuts-in]... where are, where are we, out of the outlines? Tara or Brenda? Whose chasing the outline? Who began typing outline?

Audience: The Lam-Rim outline?

Rimpoche: Who's keeping track? Where are we now?

Audience: We're at the Mahayana level. [Rimpoche: Huh?] We're beginning with the Mahayana practice. [Rimpoche: Already... up to there?] Well we finished the twelve- I mean unless we want to go further into the twelve-dependent links, that's where we left off.

Rimpoche: Alright. Brief introduction, I think that is enough for the time being. And um....[extended pause]. Alright. Alright, now Mahayana path. Wow. So when we going through common with the medium level, we're not really going deep into the teachings of the medium path nor are we going deep into Theravadan teachings but out of which whatever is necessary we have taken it, right? But I think one thing we might have left out between the common with the lower-level is emphasize common with the lower-level is- the medium-level, sorry, which is really part of what we call it liberating yourself towards nirvana. So above this level- actually we have to emphasize very much is, out of three, what you call those? Three training of mind,

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out of which- what ideas Doctor?

Audience, Doctor: Umm, the morality?

Rimpoche: "Laba sherab gye laba, laba tsugye laba, laba dzingde laba", right?

Audience: I wonder if it is the discriminating awareness- or what did you call it: the meditation, or concentration?

Rimpoche: What did you call it, concentration, what you call it?

Audience: I'm not sure what you were- I don't want to use the same words you used the last time.

Rimpoche: What did I use it?

Audience: I think you said concentration, morality, and meditation. The "ting-nyin-dzing" was the absorption.

Rimpoche: What do you mean *absorption*?

Audience: Concentrated absorption.

Rimpoche: What that mean? What does meditation mean?

Audience: As opposed to concentration?

Rimpoche: Why you use absorption, what does that mean?

Audience: It's- when it's completely focused on it and so there's nothing outside of that absorption, it's completely encompassing.

Rimpoche: What is meditation? Perfect state of meditation.

Audience: Samadhi, is that.

Rimpoche: That's not English.

Audience: The concentration is also an absorption.

Rimpoche: So you object for the meditation, you want to use absorption.

Audience: I'm trying to remember what term you used for it. You used wisdom with the morality, wisdom, and meditation.

Rimpoche: Is that okay or not okay? You said you don't want to use it.

Audience: It's not an objection Rimpoche, I just wanted to remember what words you used for it.

Rimpoche: I thought you say I don't want to use that word, just a few minutes ago.

Audience: He did but I think he was stumbling on his words-

Rimpoche: Here comes the Madame Positive. [Audience laughs] She's so- everything is so positive, you know, so beautiful and wanted to make positive. So when you're finding positive itself, accidently used it, so I mean... [Audience laughs] You'll probably see she run out of something to get it on [indistinct]. So anyway these are the three-trainings of mind before we get into the Mahayana business. So you have to- we have been talking about earlier the faults and problems in the samsara, right? So now we look for the method, how you going to get into it. So the method they presented is the wisdom,

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morality, and... he doesn't want to use meditation, he wants to use absorption, Doctor says. But I think we stick to the meditation and that makes sense to everybody, you know why not. I mean the perfect state of meditation might be absorbed, you get completely absorbed in that. So why not, I mean why we need to make something difficult and some of the people don't get picture, something very- what you call it? Little more exotic, you know, make little difficulty.

Audience: Rimpoche, you've mentioned several times now these three higher-trainings, three spiritual-trainings I think it's called, but you never talked about the eightfold noble path which comprises these three. So, I mean it seems like...

Rimpoche: I don't even know what eightfold path is, I have no idea. So what would you like to give...?

Audience: No, I certainly would not, Rimpoche.

Rimpoche: Ok, I have no idea about it so let's not bring- I don't even know. I never heard about it before, eightfold path, never heard about it. Right? Have you heard? See he doesn't know. What?

Audience: It's meditation, wisdom, and morality?

Audience: Yes.

Rimpoche: For it i's a training, it's called it higher training. Training on morality, training on meditation, training on wisdom. These are the method of getting out of samsara. Until now we have talked how bad samsara is, how much we suffer, how much we suffer, how much we suffer, suffering, blah-blah-blah, and we know, we even know out of four noble-truth we even know what causes the suffering. So we look into the delusion and karmic causes, now the picture what you suppose to have, up to now, is you see the black hole over there and you see what makes that- what creates that black hole within us and now is the time, sort of thing, that you look out, how do we get out of there, sort of thing. It's now, it's sort of, actual path which is coming out, sort of thing, on that. So what you have to do is you have to be able to link the four noble-truths and the three higher-training and sort of, you know, these are the basis. And out of four noble-truth, we saw the first two and in order to get the fourth level we now go on the third level, okay?

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That is path level, okay? Now you have very vaguely heard about five paths and all this-and-that, this is sort of a little intellectual way they divide it into five-paths and ten-stages, in Mahayana, or in Thervadan five-paths and eight-stages. The stages and paths are the now, well this is it, but in practical form it is the three-higher training of the mind and then the Doctor will link it up with the eightfold path. And so, and probably 37-part of Buddha's practice, we never really linked up after that so... So, anyway, let's look little bit on this three-training. And out of this three-training we not going to touch much on the meditation, I mean we talking from the beginning to the end is meditation material but we are not talking about techniques and how. And we are also not talking about wisdom, so the only left- at this level- is looking into the morality. And behaving, that's really what it is. How you create non-virtuous, again going back to the karma, how you- what makes you create virtue, what makes you create non-virtue and behaving accordingly. Which is the really part of the morality, really deeply looking into it. I brought the wrong copy, the one copy I'm on... [Rimpoche chuckles]. So the morality is becoming based like a foundation, there is very interesting book called "Nagajurna's letter".

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You find very often, I mean people do read that, that I belive it is translated into English, right? Do you have the copy? You do, okay. In that it had mentioned "Ting gyu sashen dunge lengu tson", so the morality is becoming like a foundation of everything which grow. We talk about guru-devotional practice is foundation of development, and this is now the second-stage level, it is becoming the foundation again. Sort of become a foundation where you can grow and all this. Okay, now, when you talk about morality what are we talking about it? What are we talking? What does that mean, morality mean? Would you like to give... Aura, what does morality mean? I don't want English language explanation but I want some kind of understanding. Of course in English, in the Western background, they have different way of understanding it. So I would like to hear what you say. It is the morality? Okay [Rimpoche chuckles]. Similar to that [indistinct- get banned], right? Huh?

Audience: Cliff does that.

Rimpoche: Is it? [Audience: Mmhm, [indistinct], it didn't get banned. Cliff and banned book.] Oh it's easy to take it off.

Audience: Lose your head? It's easy to lose my head.

Rimpoche: But the technique is how to get it back. [Audience laughs] If you know how to get it back then you can take it out. To take it off is easy- yeah it's true, difficult is how to get back.

Audience: How do you get it back?

Rimpoche: That is difficult. Even great Nagpopa, the Mahasiddha Karlapa is called it right? And he knows how to take the fruits fall off from the tree without touching, just sit there and give look and make all the fruits fall off from the tree. So his teacher tells him if you know how to put it back then you can take it off. And see it's taking off that is easy but put it back is difficult. And I don't remember, when I was a kid I remember reading somebody's biography. I don't know whose biography it is, one lama, one very respected, very well known one. Goes hunting all the time, hunts all the time with guns and all this, goes with hunting. All the time he hunts, I mean most of the time he's- I forgot who is it. And what stuck on my head was- right when I was 12 or 13 at that time, that's why I forgot who the person is you know.

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And goes hunting for all the time, and he hunts deer and all this sort of thing. So somebody accused, many local Tibetans accuse him all the time, saying bad things behind him. So one day I remember reading it there and he said "That's fine. Ok, I'm going to hunt, whoever wants to come with me, come." So few went, not so many people, few went there and he go hunt and he got one deer, he shot the deer, and he said: "Be careful, don't tear off the skin because we need to eat the meat, so when you cut-it, cut-it nicely and don't tear off everywhere". So they cut the deer, removed the skin and ate all the flesh and he said "Don't touch the bones, leave the bones there." So they had the meat and after that he said "Allright, put all the bones together", and put all the bones, don't touch it from the beginning, don't break it right, so whatever is breaking there he fixed it and put it. And now he said "Sow the skins back", so they started sewing the skin back and he got his mala and put that inside, so put mala inside and they hear the "WAAAAHHHGGYAA" and the deer gets up and runs out [Rimpoche chuckles]. I remember that. So that's it, if you know how to bring it back then you can kill it. If you know how to put it back, you can take it off. Take it off is easy, put it back is difficult. Cutting the deer is easy but making it walk again is difficult. I think it is basis of morality. Give me your [indistinct] there, I'm waiting for it. Only taking the time I stick my story inbetween. Still have to wait or what? [Audience, Aura: No I don't have to wait at all.] I still have to wait another story in there.

Audience, Aura: Oh that's fine. Morality is keeping one's vows and commitments purely, for someone who doesn't have vows or commitments it's the observance and maintaining of the ten-virtuous actions and the avoidance of

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the ten non-virtuous actions. But any vows and commitments that individuals have in addition to that are the base of their morality, the maintenance of those. I don't know.

Rimpoche: Yeah, you made a semi-intellectual statement. I'm just joking [Rimpoche chuckles]. Semi, right?

Audience, Aura: That's the base of the morality, I mean, I don't know...

Rimpoche: Your right, committing, committing... honoring your commitments, yeah. Is it all commitments is vow? That's another question.

Audience, Aura: No I said vows and commitments.

Rimpoche: Okay, even Mike the [indistinct- committee?] lawyer is looking at the window and when I'm saying "Is it all the commitments?" he's shaking his head like that. What are you thinking?

Audience, Mike the Lawyer: I was thinking what you told us on the retreat about what the difference is between a vow and a commitment. [Rimpoche: What is it?] A vow is something-

Rimpoche: So one time I'm going to get a lot of contradictions because these people remember, right? [Rimpoche chuckles] When I was in Holland they have described- what you? [Audience: Transcribed.] Transcribed the Ganden Lha Gyema teaching- incidentally they say some tapes are missing, I was supposed to do that. So they transcribed everything except the back-side of two-tapes are missing, which they didn't. So one Saturday morning, you know, I had questions is Maria and- what is her name? [Audience: Marienne Deli or Marianne DeCoch? Something like that.] DeCoch, no some other one. The small one, the small Marianne. [Indistinct] and quiet. [Audience: Hmm, I never met her.] Something, soter-something. [Audience: Oh yeah I did meet her. Ok, yeah.] Anyway that Marianne had so many- and he goes on to say "Rimpoche, you said this in here but in your talk here on certain-certain date you said something-something here, and then in your study group you had mentioned something-something here. Now all these three are different, now which one is it, should I write here." [Rimpoche laughs] I had three or four of them coming one after another! He had them all in these- you know tapes, books, or notebooks. You know something-something here

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on this point, you said something. So that soon is going to be here now too. Anyway, so what did I say? Difference between the...?

Audience, Mike the Lawyer: A vow is something of the nature of light which will grow within you. And a commitment is a guideline that will help one to keep your vow from becoming damaged.

Rimpoche: Ok, the vow is light nature, okay? So you know, what my problem- what I found is none of there contradict, sometimes I use two similar words to try to get some kind of idea across to the people, right? So that gives me sometimes difficult because afterwards they caught you back. Again here, the vow, there are two points on this. The- you know there is four Buddhist, what you call it, schools in traditional... so the two and a half school will say vow is something physical which grow within you, so they use even words "breaking vow", something to break. Some sort of physical shape, they say tangible even, so tangible and something grow. Grows within you, it can break, they give example like a fruit basket or give example like basins where you put- you know the basins where you put things, food and all sorts of things- like a plate, bowl or something, you know. That sort of example they even give- because Buddha said it is base of all development, so make it idea of base came cross they use like bowl or plate or something. Bowl can hold whole thing together, right? Whatever you can pour it in they can hold together, that's why idea of base they give. They can also break and have a crack and all this sort of thing they give you that sort of picture is the two and half of the lower schools will give you that idea. The higher schools will tell you it is not tangible, nothing here, nothing of that sort but something grow within individual. But there is something which you have to say, so for me to come link it with you sort of a light nature,

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so that's- I might have added up that word here. So sometimes need the clarification otherwise, you know, "Such-and-such a date you said something in a certain place, here you said this, now what, which one you want me to put in here?" Okay? So that is the vow, commitment is commitment, honoring whatever it is. Now the morality here, the question of morality here, is basic morality for Buddhist is avoiding non-virtuous and accumulating good work, as much as possible, and watching your mind. Watching your mind, or rather controlling or watching- the control word is not really good. But smoothening, softening, improving, whatever terminology you like to use but dealing with your own mind, I think that is the basic Buddhist morality. And then individuals have different commitments, here-there, here-there, each different initiations that you take it carries some kind of vows and it does carry its own commitment, baggage comes along with it, and things like that. I mean don't think baggage as bad but in this case- if you don't like baggage you can use luggage, something that goes along with that. [Rimpoche chuckles] Yeah, people like- people don't mind having luggage but they don't like baggage, right? What is baggage into luggage, what difference there?

Audience: Baggage has a negative connotation, like it's [indistinct-found] or something.

Rimpoche: Yeah something which you don't want to carry but you have to drag around. But luggage something which you needed to carry. So the initiation is all luggages with it, whether you make it baggage or luggage it is up to you. But it has something there. So... what is problem Brenda? Didn't you raise hand? I thought I saw it.

Audience, Brenda: I'm thinking something.

Rimpoche: Allright, I'm sorry.

Audience: We've said before a lot of times about morality being watching your mind, this is just a really practically based question. I sometimes find that I can watch my mind really clearly, and I can see myself doing a lot of things that don't make me really happy

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and it seems to me there's a step missing here. This really practically step that is in between watching your mind and changing your actions, and it's the linkage between those two, cause I can watch myself doing things, or acting things, or thinking things, or saying things that I know that are non-virtuous. Getting angry for example and yet then, even though I know, and even though I'm aware of it and even though I see a whole pattern of behavior that I'm in that I don't want to be in then there's a step that's not letting me, somehow, go from that to the stage of really acting differently. [Rimpoche: Good.] You're saying watch your mind and you're going to act differently, I'm saying-

Rimpoche: I didn't say that! I didn't say that! No, no, I didn't! I didn't, this is a problem with you. I say watching mind is morality [Audience, Brenda: Right.], yes? I didn't say act thereafter, we're talking about basic morality, watching mind, is becoming morality, basis of morality. Okay? But that doesn't mean- that's it, full-stop! Don't put any implications, okay I have a problem. Okay, you do have problem, everybody has problem, okay, we haven't talked, we didn't give the linkage. The linkage will be linked up when you talk about wisdom, you link them up. Here we're not talking about linkage, we are introducing. We are talking: okay that is morality and leave it there. What you're doing is you're jumping a step-ahead, say it is a practical problem, sure it is a practical problem but it is also practical problem for lot of people to even watch it and seeing the wrong thing. A lot of people, a lot of people won't even watch it. [Audience, Brenda: They're not even aware.] I mean they're not aware or they don't like to watch about it or that's what it is. Some people may not be aware of it at all and some people be aware of it but they don't like to pay attention to it. Okay, now you're jumping step ahead, okay I watch it, I recognize but I wanted to switch it, I can't switch it. I can see it is going wrong but I don't have- there is a missing piece. Sure there's missing piece, no doubt about it, there is missing piece. We have to find piece where it is, that's the mystery of the Tibetan Buddhism. [Rimpoche and Audience laugh heartily] You have to solve the mystery! What did you say?

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Audience: I said and if you pay the good monk fifty-dollars you might be able solve the mystery. [Rimpoche laughs]

Rimpoche: What?

Audience: Let's open some windows. Do you want some air? [Audience agrees] Maybe over here, over there? [General talking about which windows to open and milieu conversations about temperature, comfort, jackets, until 0:33:04.7]

Rimpoche: The technique is change the baggage into luggage.

Audience: Is that the mystery of Tibetan Buddhism? Change your baggage into luggage.

Rimpoche: You know actually they say, in the Tibetan tradition, the monks hear that everyday. We were monk, you know the man who was discipline person, he always say everyday "Kutu mahon gyen du nen nuna", he said "Whatever you have to do, don't make it something that you have to carry it but makes you decoration ornament." And that's what everyday you hear it, you know, "Kutu mahon gyen du nen nuna", so don't turn that into a load you have to carry but make it your ornament. And the people who can't carry any one arms in the body but

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if it's some kind of jewelry or decoration they can carry kilo around but they don't think they're carrying, right? So it becomes decoration and so this is probably the way to look at it, so not looking as baggage but looking as luggage, necessary, needed. Anyway, so that's the morality point, basically we're talking about it. What we are doing is we are introducing, okay? We're saying this is the base, we did not say where we go from there how do we correct that. But when you see this is the base, where we see what is going on, so you know, you already knew you have to change. So what you change? What do you change actually?

Audience: You can change how you act and you can change how you think.

Rimpoche: You can talk see? Earlier your statement you said "You see what's wrong, I can't change it, I cannot find missing piece", now you're talking! That's different, see? You're saying when it's wrong you can change it, you can act differently, you are giving the key to yourself but [indistinct- Cindy] tells me it is missing.

Audience: I guess I want to know how. Or I want it to be easier! [Audience laughs]

Rimpoche: That's it, I mean that really shows right? I mean it's not easier way, maybe not. It is difficult. We talk to our study group people, we talk about changing of habitual patterns, things like that, for the new people- for the people coming here. We talk about it right, so apply that. Just over here. So lot of people don't see the- oh now you're cold too right?

Audience: I've been cold- chilly most of the day. So that is fine with the cover. The air is nice.

Rimpoche: Are you the #2 positive? [Audience laughs, Rimpoche is referencing to Brenda or Aura being the #1 positive (person)]

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Audience: Changing the baggage into luggage.

Rimpoche: Things like that the positive really works, the positive attitude will work for things like that. Changing into the baggage into luggage, things like that, that's really what it is. So we talk about the changing of habitual patterns, we talk about it, and so what you do is here, that's how you do. We even tell them, right? We even tell the newest study group "Changing your habitual pattern is not easy", we also go to the extend of saying it's swimming against current. I've said that, right? And I'm sure all of you see it, probably right? So swimming against current is not going to be easy, we know that right? Matt tried to walk the other way yesterday, at the airport. I believe it's not so easy, he came back here. Is it hard? Not so hard. You could manage.

Audience, Matt: Yeah I could have made it.

Rimpoche: Yeah, you can manage when you're well. You can manage but it's nothing easy. You know just ask later on in the airport, he tried to walk other way around. [Rimpoche laughs]

Audience: He would have pick off that mother and child on the way here.

Rimpoche: What?

Audience: He had all these bags and there was a mother and child coming down the other way.

Rimpoche: Anyway...

Audience: Rimpoche does it help to understand why- why you're acting that way because I ask myself the question "why am I doing this?" I mean when I'm watching the pattern.

Rimpoche: Do you need to know why?

Audience: Yeah, mmhm.

Rimpoche: There is no reason.

Audience: There is no reason?

Rimpoche: No. Because you do act always that way because you are used to it. If you search for the reason probably there is no reason, even you have some reason which is not really valid reason. You have maybe some excuse you may find, you're not going to find reasoning there. Habitual patterns doesn't have many valid reasons. Habitual patterns doesn't have valid reasons. It is habitual pattern, you do it, you like to do it, you know it's wrong but you're still doing it.

Audience: And even if it is causing pain you still do it.

Rimpoche: Because it is a habitual pattern. We haven't learned

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how to look other way round.

Audience: I guess I was equating reason with cause. Because there is a cause, it's the delusion and ignorance. The wrong view.

Rimpoche: Almost, samsaric events are caused by delusion and- if you keep on digging, digging, digging, digging and finally it landed on delusion. The reason or anything, and you really don't have a reason do you? You just do it. Yes Al?

Audience, Al: I think one of the things that comes up in terms of a reason is- not like it's a good reason or a rationale reason, but a process in therapy is you find what the feelings are that are being satisfied by that behavior. Like there is something you desire in that behavior even though you're not getting what you want, and sometimes it helps to identify what that need is and find that there are better ways to take care of that need. And that's something you can do by self-examination or through therapy, and in that sense the reason I do this is there is some emotional need, once I recognize that I can find more productive or healthier ways to take care of that need and not harm other people. That sense of why do I do this, I think, does help make the changes.

Rimpoche: Well that's very good, really very good. That's one thing we should pay attention and get into it, I think this will really cooperate very well in that. Don't you think so Aura?

Audience, Aura: Yeah I think that's important.

Rimpoche: Yeah. Well Al gave very good suggestion and very good point here. That's true, some need, the need is the- again, you know, I mean really it's deeply, we needed something because our desire is there. The desire is influenced by whatever it is, you know? So if you stopped and- if you dig and found need and if you stopped there, that's one point, and if you still go beyond that and why this need is coming, then again it's going beyond, right? That's a good point, very good. How the delusions are working with us, that's really- the need is also influence of delusions-desire, or something. Something you wanted felt it, felt different, I mean some experience you wanted, that's why this need is sort of greedy need coming.

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This is interwoven of the delusions and the effect on the individual. So people have lot of different ways of looking into this morality business, some people will try to put this morality very strict... rather disciplined, you can do this, you cannot do that, sort of very strict disciplined way putting it on a person. And another way is the whole idea of discipline business is to change the habitually bringing the delusion business[Audio cuts-out and back-in@0:43:58.7] - changing it by yourself, within the reasonable freedom, within the reasonable adjustment, you know what I mean? Some of the, if you look into the monk's vows, sometimes it goes so much so that they cannot even look beyond 5-feet this way or 5-feet that way, they're suppose to go and look in that like the horses when you sometimes turn the horse put something over here so they don't let you see it. You know? They don't let you see it so that they go straight, they do that also to some people. Which is narrowing your view, narrowing everything, try to force and focus in one direction and pushing it through. And that's one way of doing it, not necessarily good or not necessarily bad, but the question is is whether it is suitable to me or not? That is the question. I don't think it is question of whether it is bad or good but question is suitable for me? For some people it is suitable, they like to be act like baby, like to be told what to do, what not to do, and if you not tell them what to do, what not to do, they are not happy. And some people don't like to be told what to do or not to do, you like to act by yourself. And that's individual, I can't say one is good or one is bad. Maybe. Both may think I'm right and good,

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so similarly in here too. So when you looking into these things, that's the reason why. Even the Buddha give these different vows, what they call it pratimoksha vows or self-liberating vows. So the monk's vows, the nun's vows... [Audience: [indistinct- layman's vows?]] Yeah, normal layman, yes. Those vows are sort of categorized as one category which you call it pratimoksha vows, self-liberation vows, which is very strict discipline- I do not know whether the people are following or not, that different question. And it goes so strict, so strict, strict, strict, and if you really be following it 100% correct, normally not looking anyway, just going like this. That's a true, it's true. And that's why- you know what the men, the men, really the men, the male man, you know, is afraid of attachment to woman and woman is sort of afraid of attachment to man, so it become so strict to avoid that sort of possibility of coming. So strict, so what happens is if there is a- sometimes it goes so strict, if there is a monk in the house there should not be any woman at all. And if there is a nun in the house, there should be not man at all, there should be not male at all. Sort of to go to that extent is- actually it is not whether it is monk not a woman, but the idea is the monk should not be where the woman is. It's not the other way around, people are interpreting no, if there is a monk a woman cannot be there. That is totally misinterpretation, the monk should not be where the woman is [Rimpoche chuckles], that's other way round. And the nun should not be where the laymen are, not that the laymen should not be where the nun is. But that is how it go to the extreme this much, because strictly imposing some kind of rules to

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avoid the habitual ways of bringing delusion, so that's what they go to that extreme. Yes?

Audience, Supa: [Indistinct] about that because, I mean, it seems to me it would be relatively easy to gain pretty deep insights in that kind of environment, now I'm wondering in a broader sense if someone is sort of protected in that way by their vows, are they going one day need to be tested. So that they can go out in the world and face the distractions and have to be able to strong enough that they could face those distractions and not need their for protection.

Rimpoche: You want to know the truth, my feeling? Yes, it is true they need that, but 98%, if you give the test - they fail. Ninety-eight percent, they fail. So, don't misunderstand what I'm going to talk here now. Don't misunderstand, I'm not criticizing, actually, the self- the pratimoksha vows in particularly monks and nuns vows are considered as fundamental basis of Buddhist practice. Don't misunderstand me, but what I want to say, but I think it is not suitable for 20th-century practice at all, unless you're willing to live in the forest. And don't want to come down at all, the rest of your life you're going to lock into the forest and be, sort of retreat area, don't misunderstand of normal American sense of retreat. American sense of retreat is everybody goes in some area where your not being involved. This particular retreat, what I'm talking is, retreat yourself completely out of the world and sort of you're not in there. You're sort of just surviving physical needs of food, clothes, and shelter, just about that and not having any contact with anybody, not talking, not thinking, not listening. And completely sort of excommunicated, of the general- what you call it?

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Society. And that is the true retreat, it is not where areas called retreat where group of people go there and have some nice food and good environment and meditate little bit, that's not the real retreat of this sense.

Audience, Aura: Rimpoche, are you saying that in the 19th-century or in some other place or whatever that the kind of people that Supa is talking about, that you you know, are practicing and have the benefit of that sort of restricted lifestyle that in that, in those times, if those people were to have been thrust into society as it was, they wouldn't have failed?

Rimpoche: Earlier, I won't even say 19th-century, I'll go to the- back to 10th or 11th-century, to that point, I think it is maybe little bit easier, I don't know. I don't know, may not be, may not be! But that's why it is very rare and very small percentage, I think it is only 2% of the population of all who ever tried may be able to survive, two! And that's why you have very strong respect and in the Buddhist tradition you respect the monks, very strong and this and that. And in Tibet we have too many monks, we don't respect that much because there's too many there, you know, I mean really. Think about maybe three-quarters of the population is monk, so the whole population is monk.

Audience, Aura: I guess the question that rises for me, and I don't at all mean this as disrespect for monasticism in any way, but I don't understand if that's really the case: what does that say about the method working? I mean I just don't understand, you know, it seems to me-

Rimpoche: I think method is working because you are completely cut-off the conditions to rise the delusions. Forcefully, cut-off the conditions and so the time, whatever you are passing through, is at least you are not accumulating any more non-virtuous on that and you are building up a period of different habitual way of working, forcefully, the longer it goes it may become better for you. In that way it work, that's my simple, straight-forward way of looking, not bringing "mystical" part of it in picture. Yes Supa?

Audience, Supa: I mean my gut feeling is that I think it's really beneficial because some people would never even get to- an even glimpse of it unless they do take that kind-of time to really maintain those vows. And then when they see what's available and what's possible

0:55:00.4

then they can take it into the world and really develop the strength to be able to deal with anything in their lives, because to me it seems that like, [indistinct] doing that elite 2% then you're not really there. I mean you have to be able to do it in any situation, you know.

Rimpoche: Yeah, you will never be able to do it in any situation unless you really fully- I don't want to say develop, you really fully change your habits. I don't know whether you call it develop or not but you really fully change your habits, and then you can- then you can do whatever. Then you can go whatever, you can go down and red-light area and sleep there and nothing will happen. So that's one way of enforcing disciple. Now another way is looking into it and try to change reasonably whatever could, falling it, getting it up, and walking cross. Falling it, getting it up, and walking it cross; falling it, getting it up, and walking cross; falling, walking cross, and completely don't walk, fall-walk-fall-walk-fall-walk-fall-walk, fall-walk. And that's the way how we go and move and move and move and that is another way. So we have these purification days and that, is coming in because of fall, and then we continue. It is so important to keep one's mind very carefully determined and to follow your commitments and things like that, even you break it and say- I don't say "I broke anyway so I'm finished", don't do that! Even you break one day, "Ok I broke, doesn't matter, let me try again!". So that is very important point, for the mind of cutting yourself completely of "I made mistake so I'm finished so it doesn't matter now", that doesn't work. That is bad, if there is something really called pointed out "bad", that is really bad. "Well I did it anyway, so it doesn't now", so you know people do that, don't they? That is really bad and that should under- sort-of put any pressure

0:58:00.3

and get that out. Get that out of your circulation completely, out of your system. You know what I mean? People make mistake all the time, you're not going to find anybody pure. Practically nobody, at this age, what we call impure. Practically nobody! Even Buddha come down and finds some faults in that, at least for our view. For them it is pure because they can eat meat and make the animal walk again. For them it is pure, not only pure for them it is a tremendous amount of development, we don't have that. So when you talk about this morality I think we are talking about the different level of the people or the different practice, it is so important to know and keep that as background of mind, rather than looking at blanket! Okay... but out of these three vows, the Vajrayana vow, Bodhisattva vow, and the Pratimoksha vow- what we call the Nuns and the Monks vows, right? Out of these three vows, Bodhisattva and Vajrayana considered more important than these Pratimoksha vows, as far as one individual ourself is concerned. As for as one individual concerned Bodhisattva and Vajrayana is more important than Pratimoksha vow, but as far as general public is concerned Pratimoksha vow is more important than the Bodhisattva and Vajrayana vows, Vajrayana and Bodhisattva has no visibility at all- it is your own private, individual business, not a public concern, not a public business. You know what I mean? [Audience: Mmhmm (in agreement)]

1:01:00.7

But as far as the Pratimoksha vow is concerned, those of the Monks and Nuns are concerned, that is a public visibility: they dress different, they shave their head different, they've been shaved- I mean you know what, why they shave their head? You call shaved head or shaved their hair? [Audience: Yeah.] Why? Why do they shave head? Everybody grow their hair and they shave, why? Makes different, looks different, behave different. Sort of, you know, sign for them: change your habitual pattern. It's a reminder themselves and wear different dress, to reminder themselves and also to public that represent Buddha-dharma and Sangha, that's why even the Bodhisattvas and Vajrayana people will put the Pratimoksha vow with the Bhikkshus who have this vow who put above them. Though spiritually the Vajrayana and Bodhisattvas are far higher and better than that of some of those Pratimoksha vow holders, however they put above them, they respect them, because they represent something. They represent to themself they're different, they remind the other people, people changing habitual pattern and they represent Buddha's way. You know what I mean? So that's why, that's why Pratimoksha vow is considered as an important point. They are supposed to be willing to take whole strict discipline, not even going to look distance here and there, not 5-feet this and not 5-feet that side. Wether they do it or not that's different matter, that's total different story, whatever they do. Who knows what they do after closing their door. [Rimpoche and audience softly chuckle] Huh? The Tibetan Monks eat in the afternoon, which you're not supposed to, according to this rule you're not suppose to eat in the afternoon at all, after lunch. It doesn't matter, I mean people now make it 12-o'clock and then there's that, the monks that now do, but there's not.

1:04:00.3

Buddha doesn't say 12-o'clock, Buddha said noon, noon doesn't necessarily have to be twelve. But what really meant is eat one meal, two meals, don't eat three. That's what it is, the whole reason why they can't eat in the evening is they become fat. No really, I mean if you look in the Vinayana and I mean not bad, I studied very, monks and nuns, I really studied very carefully and the whole reason you cannot eat in the afternoon- evening is because you're going to become fat and become lazy, that is simple- that is real objective for that. You can't be fat and you can't be lazy, and evening meal cause you become no more fat. Then there's one monk, a very funny monk, you know, he can only eat something very funny. You know he can eat and [indistinct] here like monkey and after certain hours only then this and he can chew and go to his stomach. And then the people go to the Buddha "he can't eat" on that because it goes here and need a couple of time, couple of hours, and then it comes up and he can chew and go, in his case it is special. Because Vinaya is not based on what non-virtue or virtue but it is more based on the rule for the Buddha lay, so Buddha made the- these are the rules. Enforcing a strong disciplined rules on the people of those who are willing to go in that direction. So his rule he can change, he say "Oh this one, what does he do?","Oh he builds up everything here and after sometime he'll chew late in the evening", okay that's alright because whole purpose of idea is not to become fat and not to become lazy and but his case is actually having one quantity, that much quantity, even in the evening that's fine, let him eat. These are the incidents, how it comes up, all these rules you know, it is so funny, I mean it is so funny. You have no idea, it is 364, each one of them had developed by incident, each one of them developed by incident. One incident happened and then they go to Buddha and Buddha said "No, you can't do that", that become rule number one. Then something happen- [Audience laughs] Yeah yeah really, that's what happened. Why are you laughing?

Audience: How come Buddha is never pictured with a shaven head but he's a monk and all his disciples have shaved heads?

Rimpoche: How do you know Buddha didn't

1:07:00.4

shave his head?

Audience: There's no representation anywhere of Buddha with his- I mean I have no idea but all the representations are of Buddha who has, you know, the Ushanisha on the cobalt blue hair and never have I seen a picture of Buddha with- but when they refer to Buddha they even say with the shaven head...

Rimpoche: Are you sure Buddha is monk?

Audience: No.

Rimpoche: Good. There you go. Huh? I mean if you tell Buddha is not monk everybody will laugh at you. Buddha is monk. [Extended pause]

Audience: Then who is Sangha?

Rimpoche: The other followers of the Buddha. Anyway... that's different. Whole story is totally different. Earlier in Buddha's time some of those Bhikkhus, now today they become a Bhikkhsu they have certain rules and rituals to do, right? So earlier they don't have that, so what happens? Buddha tells, come here! And that's it! "Come here" is a full-fledged Bhikkhsu. Huh?

Audience: A welcome something... ?

Rimpoche: Oh, no no no, come here! And that becomes a vow. [Audience chuckles]

Audience: So that's ordination?

Rimpoche: That's ordination, that's ordination. That is ordination, that is initiation, that is full-fledged vow. [Audience continues to chuckle] So all of these are there, okay? Huh?

Audience: The scriptures say in those days for the virtuous ones their hair and beard would just fall off.

Rimpoche: Not answering that. They have to cut it. That also becomes funny rule, they used to keep long hair. They used to keep long hair, they used to keep long hair.

Audience: In India that was the style of renunciates, I thought, in general was to have long hair.

Rimpoche: At that time, yes it is, they used to keep long hair.

Audience: The thing was to not to cut your hair, to let it just keep growing.

Rimpoche: Let it keep growing. So then, then something going on in the public places, something going wrong and then they said "Oh these are the followers of the Buddha" and some people say "No these are not followers of Buddha, that's followers of Jaina" or followers of this or that

1:10:00.3

and so then they have to have somehow they said alright Buddha shave whole hair off, that's how it happened. [Rimpoche chuckles] So shave everybody's- cut their hair off. Then the rule came you cannot keep your hair longer than... than this much. That is why. Anyway, these are total different story, so each one of those incidents, what I'm not thinking- I'm thinking in sort of funny way. Even in the protection of the sexual misconduct on that every different instance comes up, so the every instance comes up he goes "Oh yeah, that's that" and then it goes to Buddha and everything he ever comes up there, he said "Oh this is the first time so let it example this, from now one you can't do this." This is exactly how it developed every single three-hundred and sixty-four is every single thing has been developed by different instance. All the time, all the time. The Chaka, there's one monk named Chaka, which is Kyabje Ling Rimpoche's lineage at least the most- almost all the sexual different things is his incident. Most of them, everywhere, he does all sort of funny things! [Audience laughs] Huh? I mean it is everywhere, so each one of them follow like that, that matter is different now together. For us, what is applicable? Now that is Vinaya rule we have printed on- Vinaya rule we have printed on the pictures, right? So we know that's not applicable to us, I mean maybe applicable to us but we know we cannot be on that. I mean really, what I tell you truth is if you are following that the best thing is to follow perfectly and not in the half-and-half business. [Audience murmurs in agreement] Which unfortunately nowadays most of them- you know where Buddha has, Buddha is such a kind, you know? Buddha give lot of discounts, tremendous amount of discounts and later is becomes so much given, discount-discount-discount, if you don't involved with all this four forms of sexual misconduct of clean human being, lying - a big lie, not even a white lie is counted, big lie then what is it?

1:13:00.3

[Audience: Stealing.] Huh? Stealing. And that also some certain value they come up, you know, after some time. So if you're not involved with any one of them, any one of those four, and then if you have hesitation to the non-virtuous and then you considered as perfect... perfect moral based.. moral based, pure. Pure! So Buddha is so kind he applies all the big rules and after some time gives all the discounts back and goes to that extreme. "Tsun den pambe...", that's it, full stop. So you don't have "Pambe", these are called lose, you lose completely, if you don't under[indistinct-form]. And then the sexual misconduct is also started cutting-cutting-cutting then there's come down so much, and anyway, forget it. It's not this thing, is not...umm... reality for us. Okay, so Buddha gives so much discount, so that's why it is made possible to have monks- to survive as monk, otherwise you're not going to survive at all.

Audience: But you suppose it happened because people were starting to get past the idea that if they didn't do that they weren't going to get enlightened?

Rimpoche: What?

Audience: You suppose that people thought that maybe because they didn't follow all these rules that they couldn't possibly get there?

Rimpoche: No, that's not true.

Audience: Yeah, I know that but is that the reasoning for discounting so much?

Rimpoche: No, I think reasoning-discounting is, you know, because he is compassionate manner. So somehow wherever he will give- wherever he can get it adjusted, he like to adjust it. And Buddha's best gift to society is the community, Dharma plus community. For the community, if you lose this community it's not going to be very good for a lot of people. So balancing in between I think, and the compassionate, and balancing and meet in giving all the discounts I think. And also they don't really see that much fault in that, because you make them law then you give discount so... and then Buddha also has many of them he has to give because

1:16:00.7

his cousin, his cousin accusing Buddha's followers all the time. "Look at them, they behave like this, it's disgrace", and this-and-that, he makes public call public, and said "Look there's a disgrace", this-and-that, so then Buddha hear about it, "Alright, it's disgrace. Change it. You can't do that.", though he also builds up anyway, you know. But the whole idea of it to change the habitual patterns, not to fall in the wrong habit. Okay? What happened? Now we have painted that picture of that over there, which is not very much relevant to us. Now what is relevant to us? Now that is the question we have to raise: what is relevant to us? So for us the relevant is almost similar to the today's monks, almost. Because these basic four we have to protect ourselves anyway. Basic four, plus hesitation to the non-virtuous. Okay?

Audience: I don't understand at all. You said for monks?

Rimpoche: No, I didn't say it. Basic four non-virtuous.

Audience: I see.

Rimpoche: We protect ourselves from that and then have hesitation to other non-virtuous, committing non-virtuous have hesitation. Okay, the hesitation here does not necessarily mean the hesitation of usual way of understanding. I'm trying to be using the same language that's why. Actually, what does you hesitate mean? [Audience member chuckles]

Audience: I just think we have these dogs that are trained, you know, throw the food on the floor and if you say "Tref" they'll wait and then when you say "Kosher" then they can eat it, you know I've seen someone train their dog. So if there is some non-virtue that you are just lusting after and you go "wait" and time your clock and wait ten-seconds.

Rimpoche: [Rimpoche slowly chuckles] I thought that, I really thought that. That is what English language express, right? Hesitate, it doesn't mean that at all. It means if you're committed make sure you purify it, that is the hesitation.

1:19:00.3

Don't enjoy it and go ahead and do it all the time, no. You're bound to do it, there's no way you can skip it, okay? With our- with the power of delusions that we have on our head and with the conditions that we are living... [Rimpoche exclaims- Ahhhhh] We are sure we have non-virtues but don't enjoy, don't get a kick out of it. Did you have anything? What that mean? "Don't get kick"?

Audience: No fun allowed.

Rimpoche: Don't take it as fun, don't enjoy it. I do not know how to express that in English.

Audience: See the short-comings I would think.

Rimpoche: But in Hindi they would say "Mazak-maklema" but if you have a glass of beer and you take one sip and say "Mmmmmmmmmm", right? So that sort of thing makes you do it more, so don't. That's what it is. Don't take the kick out of it, but it will happen doesn't matter it keep on happening. But whenever happen make sure you purify it. I think that is the definition of hesitant for non-virtuous, you know what I mean? So it may totally be doesn't be that meaning of that word, so you may have to look for different word for that.

Audience: Reservation.

Rimpoche: Doctor it is same thing, reservation-hesitation. [Audience-Doctor: It's not the same thing] No?

1:21:00.8

Okay, what does reservation mean?

Audience: Reservation implies having second thoughts about something, hesitation doesn't necessarily imply it. You know reserve means holding back, hesitating is a little bit different. It's pausing but it may not be any mental reservation. If you have reservation-

Rimpoche: But the word in Tibetan is "Ngtzem", "Tsun tzem padma ma wo dra...", "Tzem" in other words you don't let it go yourself completely free. So that's what it is. The meaning of not letting you go completely is to have a- whenever it happens make sure you purify. That's how it works.

Audience: So reserve is like that, you keep forces in reserve. You don't send all of your forces out, you keep some and hold some back.

Rimpoche: Sometime you may not do it, no matter when you do it, even they are not breaking that's another point. Yes Supa what is the point?

Audience, Supa: I was going to say that not only feeling good about doing an non-virtuous action but, I think, in this society, in this day and age people are just indifferent. To steal, people don't even think twice about it, in their mind they think it is a good thing, they don't even recognize they are doing something bad, not only do they, you know, if they aren't feeling the pleasure of them to steal. They'll just steal wantonly and not even think about the fact that they are causing a karma, so be able to recognize it is going to cause you suffering unless you do some kind of purification.

Rimpoche: Mmhmm, yeah. The our problem is recognition is first rather than.. yeah, recognition. If anybody want to stretch their leg please go ahead and don't have to restrain yourself to give a pain on your leg, okay? Recognition... Now for- what, what is it?

Audience: I was just going to approach it from the idea of if- as far as enjoy, if you feel like you are simply depriving yourself of something. The emphasis isn't that it is for your benefit to discontinue that behavior but in fact you feel like you're depriving yourself of something then that's the aspect you're trying to not include.

Rimpoche: Depriving is not a good thing to do, you really have to look in that way. Depriving yourself to do anything, good or bad, depriving is not the right thing to do. There's not a positive, it's not in your vocabulary.

1:24:00.4

It's not good. And even you're doing something good but depriving yourself something with that attitude and thought will create another problem, so it is not good. There is no reason why you have to deprive but do- whatever you have to do you have to do something with think and thought, and don't let it do without thinking, without knowing what you're doing. I think it comes to that point. Isn't that interesting. So pratimoksha vows are not- the whole thing is not relevant but it really points to this: you try to avoid, like you know five limitless non-virtues. There are five limitless non-virtues, avoid all this. You don't know they are? Who knows what they are? Five-limitless, doctor will know, he is a doctor.

Audience, Doctor: Killing one's father, killing one's mother, killing Arhat, drawing- intentionally drawing blood from a Buddha [Rimpoche whispers: "Drawing Blood"] Yeah, with intent to harm and causing a schism in the Sangha when- and that's achieved when four or more monk and nuns, fully ordained monks on each side are formed...

Rimpoche: I don't think they said fully ordained monks, Sangha.

Audience: Sangha. Then there's these five auxiliary, that parallels this.

Rimpoche: See it's the doctor, show the next. He enjoy it now [Rimpoche laughs]. Killing an Arhat, killing Arhat and drawing blood. Drawing blood that's a big question, what is that, you know? Anyway doesn't matter, and if you say non-virtuous and Buddha categorized them as the five limitless non-virtues. More or less it is rule rather than by nature, more or less. Anyway, that's different point. So hesitation, what we've been talking about non-virtuous will come whatever you do, there's a no way. So when it comes don't feel bad about it, purify it, and don't carry it around and carry it all the time but purify and clean it. For the purification point is applying four-powers and all this and that is there but Vajrayana had very interesting technique to purify. That is the mantra power applied, so before you go to bed if you said twenty-one times "Vajrasattva AH"... [Rimpoche chuckles]. Twenty-one times "OM Vajrasattva AH" probably does the job. Goes in to- [Audio abruptly cuts-out - EOF @1:28:00.3]