Archive Result

Soundfile 19900414GRAALR2

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Ann Arbor

Topic Lam Rim: Types of Vows > Vajrasattva purification > Morality > Bodhisattva motivations > Selflessness vs Selfishness > Debate tips

Transcriber Matthew McKinley

Date 2/18/2024

[Audio cuts-in abruptly - previous file ended on Vajrasattva purification practice] Not so strong, not really. Vajrasattva is an enlightened being specialized for purification, so therefore Vajrasattva mantra is considered very important for purification. That is very long mantra called 100-syllable mantra but that is not hard for beginning people. Now is your first introduction in Vajrayana actually, so "OM VAJRASATTVA AH" - the shorter form, 21-times suppose to serve the purpose. I'm not sure whether it completely purify or not but it definitely cuts the increase and multiplication.

Audience: Just a small point but I wondered when the previous group like read the mantra after we've done the mantra 21-times we say "OM VAJRASATTVA HUNG" and I just wondered if that was something different between those two?

Rimpoche: Some people say "VAJRASATTVA HUNG", I think "VAJRASATTVA AH" is the correct mantra. "AH" is the most important one here rather than "HUNG". Normally lot of mantras end at the "HUNG" so some people think the last word has to be "HUNG", so they put it "HUNG".

Audience: Actually Rochelle made a point that maybe we say it really fast and when we say it fast it actually kinda slurs into that almost. Maybe that's why I [indistinguishable], when you say "OM VAJRASATTVA HUNG" it kinda sounds like...

Rimpoche: Let's hear from... you, say loud. Very fast!

Audience, other female member: "OM VAJRASATTVA HUNG, OM VAJRASATTVA HUNG, OM VAJRASATTVA HUNG", it's the "HUNG". It's the "HUNG".

Rimpoche: "OM VAJRASATVVA HUM HUM HUM HUM...

Audience, male: Yeah that's how we say it I didn't know if that was just...

Audience, female: OM VAJRASATTVA HUNG, OM VAJRASATTTVA HUNG, OM VAJRASATTVA HUNG. It's the "HUNG".

Rimpoche: I think the VAJRASATTVA AH is the right. Maybe the different lamas will have different way of telling or not. So you can't say that is wrong or that is right but... huh?

Audience: We were just agreeing that you told us before to say "OM VAJRASATTVA HUNG" for emergencies.

Rimpoche: Did I told you?

Audience, en masse: Yeah, you told us. [sporadic chuckles]

Audience: Do you know what date it was that he said to us? [Audience laughing and general commotion breaks out] Where was the teaching?

0:03:00.7

Rimpoche: Can I defend myself? [Audience laughs] Second time? Last chance? [Rimpoche laughs] VAJRASATTVA AH, Tsong Rimpoche emphasized on that. VAJRASATTVA AH. The HUNG is the union, combination, AH is basis of- AH is very powerful mantra, basis of emptiness. AH DENGBE RUNGSHI. It is the foundation of emptiness. And it is the base of all mantra, so whether you say OM VAJRASATTVA AH or VAJRASATTVA HUNG, I really don't think it make much difference. But AH is good, Tsong Rimpoche emphasized on that. I don't think you can say HUNG is wrong, I don't think there is "M" sound, though the letter is round, round can be translated as base. And base can translated as female, so zero can become equals to "MA", so people may say "HUM" but I think normally it goes "HUNG" rather than "HUM" because of two double round behind again which balance- anyway, so that is little too beyond our point anyway. Good, what else? So that is good purification, so it helps to build the foundation of the morality thing. Now that is that, but after taking Bodhisattva vow and after taking Vajrayana vows, the Vajrayana vow commitment and Bodhisattva vow commitment is, I don't believe, it has been introduced like the Pratimoksha vows. Pratimoksha vows, one incident happen another rule introduced, one incident happen another rule introduced.

0:06:00.3

But Bodhisattva and Vajrayana it has- are you okay? I'll get it by now, you with me? [Audience, female: Yeah.] Good. You... Bodhisattva and Vajrayana vow is, you know what I'm talking about? What is Bodhisattva vow?

Audience, woman: I'm just-

Rimpoche: Keep on listening, you'll get it. [Audience, woman: Right.] When you talk about this Bodhisattva the Mahayana path is called Bodhisattva path and people who are sort of committed to become a Buddha are called Bodhisattvas, this is a technical name. It is the badge of the club! [Audience laughs]

Audience: Are we going to get buttons Rimpoche?

Rimpoche: Oh, probably, yeah. [Audience laughs] Is badge of club. So, the members of the club are known as Bodhisattvas, so they have their certain ways and rules of it. So to get into the Bodhisattva club you initiated into Bodhisattva. So way of initiating is taking vows or developing it, the true way is without depending on vow and get yourself develop it. Not depending on the ritual and taking vows but just getting yourself developed, that's true way. So other way of getting it is taking vows and put a label on it. So the taking vow is sort of the initiation, when you take this sort of vow then this baggage comes in- the luggage comes in through that. The luggage is this, of the Bodhisattva and the Vajrayana, within that, within that luggage there are certain- some are more sort of heavy, some are more lesser heavy and all this, but not so much discount. Like the Pratimoksha vow you can go on with having discount but there no. These are the rather more strict, yet very liberal, there's no such a thing called breaking in that. Praktimoksha vows there is something called breaking, you break it and you become no of it and here you doesn't. There's nothing called breaking it, however that is why it is lose

0:09:00.3

but it is more tight and heavy, actually. In true reality it is much more strict and much more hairy. But it is loose too. So these are become relevant to us, when you take the Bodhisattva, when you take the Vajrayana, these are relevant. Pratimoksha are not that relevant, except basic.

Audience: Rimpoche, how are those vows developed?

Rimpoche: Which vows?

Audience: Pratimok- I mean Bodhisattva and Vajrayana.

Rimpoche: Well you go and attend Bodhisattva ceremony-

Audience: No, no, no, no, no.

Rimpoche: And you will get a little identification....

Audience: That's not my question, you said that the Pratimoksha vow is based on each one is based on a specific incident.

Rimpoche: No no, not vow. The commitments.

Audience: The Pratimoksha commitments are each based on a specific incident, the three-hundred and sixty-some...

Rimpoche: Yeah, during the Buddha's lifetime.

Audience: And you said these two that's not the case.

Rimpoche: Well these two are beginning layout, if you are Bodhisattva these are[n't?] against your vows, these are not...

Audience: So Buddha just presented those and it wasn't based on incidents?

Rimpoche: I don't believe so.

Audience: Presented like we...

Rimpoche: I don't believe so. I don't believe so. I don't believe so. These days there's an identity card for it, you know. One of our smart friend, you know, we have one Rimpoche. The healing lama, you see me, you see doing his thing, "Kungezen". He had actual identity cards, you know, I saw them in Singapore and Malaysia when I went- Singapore, second time. He really issued identity card for me but I don't know why he did it. I like to talk to him. It looks funny, really funny. Chuck Wang showed me one and then other showed me one, so what did they said "That Rimpoche gave me." When you attend a Bodhisattva ceremony- I mean the Gelug tradition doesn't even give a name, your name is good enough name, doesn't even give you name. No really, and some traditions do give name, I think that later developed anyway. They need something so it's developed, I believe it come from- developed by the 16th Karmpa, almost. Then they started giving names even.

0:12:00.3

Audience: Names?

Rimpoche: Huh?

Audience: Um, you mean specifically with that Bodhisattva vows.

Rimpoche: Vows, yeah. Everybody who take vow they started giving names.

Audience: Well the practice of giving the names with the vows, I don't know about those but all the other vows so many Lamas, reading their biographies, that they get a new name when they take ordination.

Rimpoche: For monk, yes.

Audience: But for lay-people I never heard that.

Rimpoche: Yeah, but now they do. Now they do. Anyway, so now what the "Kangzen" did he even showed identity card, this is very funny to me, you know. He has an identity card, those who took the Vajrayana vows, there's an identity card, you know, and it is so interesting one. Two piece, folding like this, one side there is a Buddha - picture of the Buddha, five Dhyana Buddhas wherever the flowers fall he picked the flower of the- whether it is Akshobya or Ratnasambhava and picture of Akshobya and Ratnasambhava one side and then picture of the person, individual, on the other side. Then with the name and signature from them [Rimpoche laughs] and that's Vajrayana identity card. I think it is funny. But people liked it, they carrying, they showed me and then... and some even have identity card without signature. They sort of got the identity card from Thubten Jinpe they said, so they put their picture on there by themselves. [Audience: Counterfeit] Huh?

Audience: They're counterfeit. [Audience chuckles]

Rimpoche: Fake!

Audience: Rimpoche can I ask a question, just a quick clarifying one. When we were at the long retreat Gordon asked a question about lay-vows. Now, in the categories in the three that you've talked about here, where does that fit in? Is that a pratimoksha vow?

Rimpoche: Pratimoksha vow.

Audience: But it's not for a monk and nun, it is something that a lay-person can take.

Rimpoche: Yes.

Audience: And then you had talked about saying- you said to Gordon "Well that's very interesting, I'm going to answer that question, that's important for you, we should talk about that." and then we never did. And I've been kinda thinking about it...

Rimpoche: What is it?

Audience: Well, what they are and whether- we did talk about why they might be good because we talked about the fact that if I'm not killing at this moment I'm not getting any merit for not killing but if I've taken the vow not to kill then all the time I'm getting the merit. So that's a pratimoksha vow, is that important for us?

Rimpoche: If you have the Bodhisattva vow you have higher than pratimoksha vow, actually. [Audience: I see.] Bodhisattva and Vajrayana vows are from

0:15:00.4

the vow point of view they are higher and important vows. But still you can take the pratimoksha vow, lay-vows, there is. There are several different lay vows, which are all known as "Gyemen" in Tibetan and also known as "upasikas" in Sanskrit, "Upasika". There are complete "Upasika", "Yong tze kyene, tsang tze kyene, kyomo kyene", I think there's eight or nine "kyenes" there. I forgot. One of those "kyenes", I think "kyomo kyene" even wears robe. Even wears total monk robe, "kyomo kyene".

Audience: Rimpoche, is there any real benefit to having those vows in addition to Bodhisattva vows and Vajrayana vows?

Rimpoche: I'm sure there is, I'm sure there is, I don't know exactly what. Really. But I'm sure there is. Maybe sometimes there's some difference of the things you're not suppose to do, maybe some difference there, sometime. I'm sure quite different on the sexual miscontact, there's quite different on that. And alcohol too, I think there's some difference. So "kyenes" are totally... [Rimpoche starts to chuckle] "kyenes" are not suppose to drink but a lot of "kyenes" drink, they said I took it "minus that". I don't know, people do that these days, "minus that". Minus alcohol.

Audience: Oh, minus the vow. I get it.

Rimpoche: Normally.. I don't know if you can or not but people do it. I really don't think it is allowed in the rules.

Audience: Most I hear that people comment that they have their [indistinguible] vows of not drinking to the point of drunkenness. So they still drink but they say "Well I just don't drink til I'm drunk."

Rimpoche: Yeah, I mean I don't know where it come from. I came close to that several times. And I don't know where but actually it is not allowed, so there's a big question.

0:18:00.2

Audience: I mean it is interesting conditions nowadays because somebody was asking me about the one for sexual misconduct, "Well does that apply to- not to commit adultery but how does that apply to someone who is getting a divorce or someone who is separated?", you know and they are asking me these interesting questions, you know.

Rimpoche: What is sexual misconduct to you?

Audience: Well, again I took- you know I think of it as a vow- something that grows within you.

Rimpoche: I don't mean it. Name it.

Audience: There's many different levels, I mean when you take- Gangpopa I read, he has a full list of-

Rimpoche: Come on, I didn't say what Gangpopa does. You tell me. [Audience laughs] Supa wanted to save you.

Audience: Oh go ahead Supa. [Audience laughs]

Audience, Supa: In terms of the vow itself, it is not committing adultery. I don't give it any credence of you know these outlines of restricted times of day or on the full moon, or whatever they are.

Rimpoche: They are irrelevant, unless you are taking "Yungdzor gyene" vow or "Sungy- [Audience, Doctor: And it's complete...] No, no, no Doctor. "Yungdzor gyene" and "Sangyur gyene" is lay vow is not completely abstained. No, that's a lay vow that is not monk vow.

Audience: I understood that there were some lay vows that had the full...

Rimpoche: No, two yes, but that doesn't [indistinguishable- "Kakagyu"] sexual at all, no.

Audience: I was told by monks, I mean they're not monks but they wear the full robes but they have the "Ginyin" vows except for the sexual misconduct means complete celibacy.

Rimpoche: No, "Yungdzor kyome" both have- allowed sexual, unless you are "Sangyu gyene". "Sangyu gyene" is not allowed, there are two, three, four, five, they have this discount goes. But on the "gyene" business, it is very very tricky one, I really don't know. Who really knows? [Audience laughs]

Audience: No one here. [Audience chuckles]

Audience: In the Jewel-Ornament it gives a really elaborate list..

Rimpoche: Yeah but everybody have different things whatever, but doesn't matter. What does matter,

0:21:00.3

I mean these... yeah there are difference on that, lot of difference, what we can- like we hear the question what the Bodhisattva vows and lay vows. I think lay vows will have a cut on the sexual things, more than Bodhisattva vows and Vajrayana vows may have it. And sexual misconduct is another thing, another completely another matter, totally another matter. And basic sexual misconduct is one thing and then the time-place is additional thing, completely additional thing. The basic idea of sexual misconduct is here- you know I paid no attention for long time, I begin to open my vinaya plus Bodhisattva and Vajrayana rules about a year, or maybe less than year, but begin to open and begin to look. And is very very funny, sometimes you find certain important points, I mean what you call it "punchline" right? Punchline. And what I found on punchline on the sexual misconduct is sexually hurting other people, that is the really punchline. But the books are very good, they take that as granted, completely granted, people take it as observed, then they go on top of that "full-moon there, this place and that place" and goes very very long listing on top. But what happened is the long listings overlook the hurting other people. That is the fundamental basis of sexual misconduct.

Audience: Rimpoche, you mean- let's say a situation which might be called adultery in which two-people are married or.. are married to somebody else, each of them are married to different people and- but they are attracted to one another and decide to have a sexual relationship.

Rimpoche: I'm not even sure if that is sexual misconduct or not.

Audience: If it hurts another person is that is that...

Rimpoche: Consent person.

0:24:00.3

Connected in the body.

Audience: Is it the consenting, is that what you mean?

Rimpoche: Two people are involved and that sexual activity is hurting another, that is really covered in the [indistinguishable- "raves"] and things like that, you know.

Audience: Is hurting another within the two people or hurting another outside?

Rimpoche: Party, within the party.

Audience: So when does the adultery thing come in. I mean that's what I don't understand, before they always talk about adultery.

Rimpoche: Well I'm not sure, that's one thing and that's not the full list. Then you go on, add up, add up, add up on top of it. So the point is when you look in the Jewel-Ornament and all this sort of thing- I haven't read the Jewel Ornament version but some other version, the additional list has been completely mentioned but basic is not mentioned. So, that is very important point. I've found two, three, punching lines like this, very recently, one is on the suffering I would like to share that. One is on this, the suffering is also I found punchline on it, it is completely by coincident. I was looking through some old book which I memorized completely number of years ago, probably when I'm like 7 or 8, completely forgot about it. Started looking back and in that it says- this is something I showed doctor, didn't I show you or you? [Audience, Doctor: Not me, no.] You? I showed. It is suffering because you have no freedom. [Rimpoche chuckles] Isn't that funny? Because you have no freedom it is suffering, they're not talking about it- I mean the word suffering may be wrong, they're not talking about you have pain, problems, or particularly pains and shortages but it's simply talking about you're not totally free. There are a lot of important pockets sometimes you can't discover. I'm happy to found that, I memorized that when I was 6 or 7 years ago, never found it. [Rimpoche laughs] When I sort of closed the book and started see the words goes on my mouth top, paid no attention.

Audience: You're not totally from what? Period.

Rimpoche: Period! You have no freedom,

0:27:00.4

so you're in control of somebody else.

Audience: Or delusions.

Rimpoche: Come on. Somebody else, there can be delusion, can be karma. Doesn't have to be another person, okay? It doesn't matter you controlled by a robot, or you controlled by machine, or you controlled by human- another person.

Audience: [Audience chuckles] Sears and Roebuck. Robot, robot, not Roebuck.

Rimpoche: Okay, robot. So doesn't matter you're controlled, you have no freedom. You can't go, you can't leave, you can't move. Isn't that important? Huh?

Audience: Yes, very much so. That's my experience of the difference between Zen, is they go just for the punchline but they neglect too much other aspects of it and they just see the punchline. They don't see what leads up to that punchline, think you need to see both sides of it.

Rimpoche: Mmhm. So this is lot of things like that, it is interesting. What else then?

Audience: There was a third one. Third punchline.

Rimpoche: I forgot now.

Audience: That was the one that you said the quotation from Dharmakirti. The one you said you experienced on the way to Ohio on the turn-pike.

Rimpoche: Oh that's another lifetime ago, that's not latest news. That's not latest news [Rimpoche chuckles], that's an old news. Okay, now that's it. So what we look is we look as our morality, important morality, we look- we restrain from the basic four then we don't enjoy doing the non-virtuous and whatever we involved we purify it. I think that is basic guideline sort of we can take it easiest, simply, and if we don't go beyond that we are okay. You can't be strict, don't even try to be. Now once you take Bodhisattva vows and then there are fixed things you have to follow it. Vajrayana, fixed things, you have to learn them and follow them. I promised to do a teaching on the Bodhisattva and Vajrayana vows to Sandy and Aura for last 3 or 4 years [Rimpoche chuckles, just started it!

0:30:00.2

No, not even started. Never did it, so someday, one day we'll do it whenever that one day will be, who knows. [Audience laughs]

Audience: Rimpoche?

Rimpoche: Who said that?

Audience: It's just me.

Rimpoche: It's just me, yes me?

Audience: When you gave everyone refuge in the group thing, about a year and half ago, you talked about the five precepts and I thought at the time that you were giving them to us as a vow. And I tried to keep them, and I've purified them, and I've broken them and all this stuff. [Rimpoche: Very good.] Does that mean I have been keeping them as a vow? Can you do that just by simple intention?

Rimpoche: What did you say?

Audience: Can you do that just by simple intention, just because I thought that I'd done it and took them as a vow.

Rimpoche: Well you can call it refuge vow though nobody really called, and refuge is sort-of you know in the luggage of the refuge you come five-percent. And that is the luggage.

Audience: Right, okay. I even reaffirmed them with a lama and all this stuff. So I just wondered if they were really to be kept as a vow. So what's the difference between those and the "Gyene" vows?

Rimpoche: Very close, but "Gyene" has it's own certain rules. Certain rules, I mean for refuge I think alcohol... is not that really, I mean you can, though in some area Buddha really insist on so much on the alcohol. But here you may be able to say it you drink, I mean as long as you can control, maintain your status, if you lose little balance doesn't matter, if you're little bit slow doesn't matter, you go completely out of the way. I think for refuge you can have that, I really mean it. For certain vows like "Gyene" or "Upasika", when you take vow "I don't drink at all" then that is "I don't drink at all", I mean it depends on the vow's words you repeat. If that says "I don't drink at all" that means "I don't drink at all" but here you may say "I don't drink at all" and then when you go back you'll say "Well, I said don't drink, that doesn't mean I don't drink that doesn't mean I don't drink it means I don't get drunk" and that needs a little bit of interpretation, so may not be right. That's why "Gyene" is always divided within the level, I think eight different levels in there. Then the question rises whether if there's a single point of "Gyene" is considered "Gyene" or not, that is the theoretically problem

0:33:00.4

for the theologists to solve out. I don't think they will ever solve anyway.

Audience: The four basic were killing, stealing, and lying.. and what was the fourth one?

Rimpoche: Sexual misconduct.

Audience: Sexual misconduct.

Rimpoche: And if you add a fifth then the drinking will come. Intoxication, it's not a drink, again, it is not necessarily alcohol alone. It is the word intoxication, whatever makes you mad, that is the description. Huh?

Audience: You mean angry-mad or insane?

Rimpoche: No, no, no, no, no, you don't know what you're doing. Yeah.

Audience: And where does it fit in?

Rimpoche: Where ever you would like to. [Audience laughs]

Audience: There's four non-virtues and this is the fifth?

Rimpoche: Yeah! That's it, I mean [indistinguishable: no limits].

Audience: When you say intoxicants.. [Rimpoche: Huh?] Try to refine this thing of intoxicants, does that mean substances primarily? Or does it also mean like people?

Rimpoche: No.. no, no. Any substance that you take...

Audience: It means substances, it doesn't mean like my boss drives me crazy.

Rimpoche: No, no not that but even if your boss drives you crazy but boss cannot make you mad. So boss make you irritated and boss can make you- you know, as long as there is no intake, doesn't make you. Intake, whether in the form of injection, form of anything goes within your physical thing. I mean no matter how much somebody talks to you, you cannot drive you- people say "it drive me insane" don't they? [Audience responds collectively with: Mmhm.] They say it but really you don't become insane person, but if you drink too much you really have no idea what you are doing. Okay? Okay that's basic thing we have to follow it, which really gives you- us enough thing to observe, didn't we? It give us enough material to observe ourself and enough material to change ourself.

0:36:00.4

Yes or no?

Audience: Can I ask a question about changing one's habitual patterns in the Mahayana point of view? Is it the mere fact of thinking of others which- before oneself, which goes against the grain of our habitual pattern of always thinking selfishly. So that small turn, change, can begin to change the patterns? Which is an internal thing rather than the pratimoksha which is external.

Rimpoche: Very important question, very interesting. Two ways of looking at it, what do you think Laura? I see two ways of looking on this, one: Bodhisattva's really do change.

Audience: They what?

Rimpoche: I'm a funny person, I get a funny question on my head which is not allowed- should not be here. But does Bodhisattvas really, really change? I'm not doubting the intention of the Bodhisattvas but do they really put other people above your own personal gain. Or is it Bodhisattvas considering important of other people, love, compassion and other people is to gain yourself? Is it for gain yourself? So these are the really big questions bothers me lot sometimes. Somehow it is focused back, you know? "For the benefit of all sentient beings I would like to obtain enlightenment", there's a big "I" who wants to jump over here. And that's [indistinguishable: learning].

Audience: But my question has more to do, I...

0:39:00.3

Rimpoche: No, you're question is linked because you said putting other people considered more important is that begin to change the habitually pattern?". So that's why I raised basic fundamental question does Bodhisattva really chose people above you? Even they what considered it for other people good but to benefit- not to benefit myself they say, but to serve others I would like to obtain enlightenment.

Audience: So I know what me-me-me feel like but I would like to know what it is from the point-of-view from the opposite of that. Of really putting other people before oneself.

Rimpoche: I understand that, I understand what you say and I think I did. But my question is do they really put other people before me?

Audience: But that's what I thought it was all about.

Rimpoche: Yeah, I thought so too! But is it really? That's what I'm asking.

Audience: Well I guess I want some experiential taste of what that is... so. What is it like to do that?

Rimpoche: Yeah, it looks like administrators who need power to serve the institution. Don't you think so? Maybe not. [Audience: Looks like.] In modern times we have to analyze... [Audience grumbles all at once]

Audience: No? Why not? Why not Aura, tell me why not? You know, the Bodhisattva goes and say look "I would like to serve all the sentient beings, I would like to take total responsibility of liberating every sentient beings. I'd like to do it, but I'm short of capability, I need capacity to do it. So I had to become a Buddha first.". It looks to me that administrator comes and say "Look, I'm here to make this institution run correct but in order to do that I have to have power to say, be able to do this-tdek-tdek-tdek-tdek, otherwise I cannot manage- I cannot administer. The institution will not run well.". So Aura doesn't agree.

Audience, Aura: But where does the [indistinguishable] of the mother with the only child come in, when they're willing to even give their own life...

Rimpoche: Yeah, the only child- yes, yes, the only child are the all sentient beings.

Audience: But its the underlying principal that you're developing.

Rimpoche: No no, listen the only child is all sentient beings. It is the "one but", all but one, the only child.

0:42:00.3

All but one is the only child, right? Let Aura say something, she's boiling down. I'm not even looking.

Audience, Aura: I mean I have a few things to say to that..

Rimpoche: I'm sure you do, [indistinguishable] then we'll stop. [Audience erupts with laughter]

Audience, Aura: Half-an-hour, half-an-hour. For one thing I think from the point of view of Bodhichitta and really developing Bodhichitta or Bodhimind, whatever you want to call it, that definitely without a realization of emptiness that- without really seeing the true nature of phenomena I think it would be impossible- can I finish what I was going to say before you interrupt me?

Rimpoche: No you can't. [Aura: Oh yeah I can't? Okay.] You know why you cannot? [Aura: Why?] You are mixing method and wisdom together. We're talking about method here so just talk about method.

Audience, Aura: No, well we're not just talking about method. We're talking about-

Rimpoche: I am! Please, no-

Audience, Aura: Oh well I didn't hear that in Jacqueline's question. Jacqueline's question I heard: can you experience- how do you experience actual, a lessening of self-cherishing...

Rimpoche: She didn't say that. That's not question, at all.

Audience, Aura: How is it possible- because she's talking about experiencing putting others ahead of oneself, in which case you have to view yourself as differently than you view yourself in this moment.

Rimpoche: That is her second statement, that is not her original question.

Audience, Aura: What's her original question?

Audience, Jacqueline: Had to do with more with changing habitual patterns that the actual switching from literally thinking about oneself first and then thinking about others, putting others before oneself. That actually- is that what changes habitual patterns?

Audience, Aura: Does doing that change it, is that what you are saying? Does just placing others ahead of yourself change the habitual patterns?

Audience, Jacqueline: Because that's what we've been talking along- through here is habitual patterns.

Rimpoche: So she was saying that is that makes internal change different than external thing, that's what she really pointing it out. Is it Mahayana way of changing a habitual pattern, in another words. In your answer you try to put the wisdom in that and not answer but statement. We are totally talking about method. When you talk about method you stick to a method, when it come to wisdom

0:45:00.0

you stick to wisdom and later when we combine- [Audio abruptly cuts-out, comes back in second later]

Audience, Aura: [Audio abruptly cuts back in] -in there because when I introduced wisdom you're saying "Well that doesn't count we can't talk about it".

Rimpoche: No, no no, no talk because absolute Bodhimind is not Bodhimind [Audience, Aura: That's right!] But therefore the wisdom doesn't count at all.

Audience, Aura: Okay, alright. Well then I'll change my- I'm sorry because that's right cause I was addressing it from that point of view.

Rimpoche: You know I'm trying to bring this question, I'm trying to bring that negative question before we get into Bodhisattva path. So I wanted to make that clear first, you know what I'm talking about?

Audience, Aura: I think I know what you're talking about now, yeah.

Rimpoche: Good, so I'm raising a doubt whether the Bodhisattva is really committed. [Rimpoche laughs] Yeah.. okay.

Audience, Aura: I agree with you based on relative Bodhichitta alone I would agree.

Rimpoche: What does absolute Bodhichitta do on that?

Audience, Aura: What does it do on that? What it does- I mean what I was getting at was I think-

Rimpoche: I mean this is off the record, okay? Doesn't come in the picture. No Buddhism tape doesn't matter but... this record means what we're doing-

Audience: Don't really pay attention. Don't really compute, you know?

Rimpoche: Ah-ha.

Audience, Aura: So you're asking me what?

Rimpoche: You think the wisdom do something here, what wisdom do? What do they do?

Audience, Aura: Yeah, I think wisdom does a lot because the wisdom cuts ignorance.

Rimpoche: Yeah, so what?

Audience, Aura: So ignorance is the root-cause of self-cherishing.

Rimpoche: Oh I see you're taking three-steps. Okay, okay, you're taking three steps.

Audience, Aura: If you cut ignorance you are in a position- you see yourself completely differently than you see yourself when you are seeing yourself through the experience of ignorance.

Rimpoche: So?

Audience, Aura: So true Bodhichitta is not really possible, more than just an aspirational-

Rimpoche: What do you mean true Bodhichitta?

Audience, Aura: What we're talking about is in terms of really completely cherishing others more than you cherish yourself.

Rimpoche: Well that's not true Bodhichitta.

Audience, Aura: In a relative sense that's not?

Rimpoche: In the relative sense yes but not in absolute sense.

Audience, Aura: That's what I'm talking about! I'm sticking to the relative here. The true Bodhichitta in the relative sense.

Rimpoche: Okay, good. Now we may be confusing a lot of people. Yeah really, I'm trying to dig you a little bit down on that true Bodhichitta business.

Audience, Aura: Well that's what I meant cause when I was- I'm talking now about the Bodhichitta Jacqueline is describing.

Rimpoche: Jacqueline did not even describe the Bodhichitta at all. [Rimpoche laughs]

Audience, Aura: The cherishing others more than oneself.

Rimpoche: Yeah, and in habitual patterns. Changing of habitual pattern.

Audience, Aura: The changing of habitual pattern of cherishing self more than others! Into the habitual pattern

0:48:00.5

of cherishing others more than cherishing self.

Rimpoche: Yes. So before we even talk her question we said that's Bodhisattva is really cherishing others.

Audience, Aura: Well that's where I got- where I came in with the other part.

Rimpoche: Yeah. And then there's the [indistinguishable- reason/raising] so many hands are down there, this is her sensitive point of the Bodhisattva act.

Audience: Well okay, she started out with is changing the habit of taking care of yourself before-

Rimpoche: She didn't say taking care of.

Audience: Not taking care... what- thinking of self before thinking of others versus thinking of others first.

Rimpoche: Did she say word "thinking"?

Audience, Aura: What word did she use?

Audience: I don't remember at this point.

Rimpoche: See, that is the point!

Audience, Aura: Ok, my...

Rimpoche: Actually the "putting" I think. Putting, that is what I read at that time. Whatever she has used it, you know.

Audience, Aura: Putting others first while changing the habit of putting yourself always first to making a habit of putting everyone else first is seems to be changing to one unbalanced habit to another unbalanced habit. Because if you are putting everyone else always first then you're sacrificing this and you can't keep- I mean you can do that and that probably has some benefit in some cases but you can't keep up sacrifice in the long run. That's not the answer.

Rimpoche: That's fine, that's fine. Lets' go out to half the count, let fifty-percent go ahead and then you go. [Audience laughs] [You -Indistinguishable- to do]

Audience, Aura: You replaced balanced is...

Rimpoche: Yeah fifty-percent, it is balanced. No, no where is it balanced? Where is it?

Audience, Aura: Where I see it balanced is where you are taking care of yourself and everyone at the same time.

Rimpoche: Ah, here you come. But can you do that? Is it possible?

Audience, Aura: Yes.

Rimpoche: Really?

Audience, Aura: Yes.

Rimpoche: Is there a time when everybody becomes a Buddha? Is there a time when there is non-Buddha is left? Everybody is Buddha, will there be time?

Audience: You mean where Samsara is empty?

Rimpoche: Will there be time that Samsara is totally empty? Will there be time when everybody will becomes Buddha? For your balance you have to go after that time, right? So you're not going to agree with the fifty-percent so you have to go to that point. Will be everybody together. Magic carpet. Everybody sit on it and go together.

0:51:01.8

Audience, Aura: Well no, everybody doesn't have to- okay from my view...

Rimpoche: Oh who should be left out? Who should be left out! Who should be left out?

Audience, Aura: No, my view point not everybody is left out. Okay, everybody can benefit without being a Buddha. I can benefit people by gaining enlightenment and other people benefit by the ways that I can help them.

Rimpoche: Okay, okay, okay. Okay, you can benefit by becoming Buddha and other can benefit little less than that, right? [Rimpoche and audience chuckle] Remember...

Audience, Aura: And you can also play absolute truth that everyone is already enlightened.

Rimpoche: Oh sorry, no. How can that be possible?

Audience, Aura: Everybody is a Buddha. Absolute.

Rimpoche: Not at all, not at all. Then why should we be here? Do not misunderstand that, that is big mistake. Lot of people say Buddhist doesn't matter, everybody is a Buddha anyway it is only their mind. No that's totally mistake, if you are absolute Buddha what are you doing here? Get out. True. That's why I always use everybody has the seed of the Buddha, everybody has the Buddha nature. I use baby Buddha. [Audience chuckles] So your balance is- you are off balance, you better agree with the fifty-percent. Count, count sentient beings divided- [Audience, Aura: I'll take half.] Take half then you'll get in. Then will true balance.

Audience: That's not completely true, I mean think what she's saying on a human level [Rimpoche: I know, I know.] it's not an "either or". It's not that you have to sacrifice yourself in order to do something for something else, as matter of fact when you do something for other people it feels better than when you are doing things for yourself. The idea is you can do both together, you don't sacrifice that's not the good idea. My concern for other people, like cooking dinner is more fun than just eating alone, it's that kind of a thing. You can still eat dinner and so can everyone else but that's more fun than just cooking and eating by yourself. That kind of thing.

Audience: Right, that's the idea.

Rimpoche: That's the idea. He didn't say that did he? He may, he may have that in mind but she had that in mind, which I also knew from the beginning, but when I refute her I had to push her around, you know. [Rimpoche chuckles] And I push Aura off the absolute- absolute Bodhimind.

0:54:00.7

Audience: Rimpoche, in the Bodhisattva vows there's the idea of not abusing the aggregates and it seems to me that there's some notion that, you know, that people have limited strength or limited stamina or limited physical needs that you know, you can't always be giving. I mean there is some notion of taking care of yourself in order to be able to accomplish the goal of helping others.

Rimpoche: So?

Audience: So the two are incompatible.

Rimpoche: I didn't say you can't take care of yourself. Did I?

Audience: No but you said you doubted that- you wondered aloud if there was...

Rimpoche: No I mean, I'm not doubting whether the Bodhisattva can take care of itself or not, I'm doubting the Bodhisattva really wanted have others above you. I'm doubting on that.

Audience: What do you mean by above you?

Rimpoche: Well... I'm the servant, I want serve everybody, I needed to serve everybody so I need the capacity to serve everybody. So you people wait! I go quickly go become a Buddha and then I come back to serve you. That is the idea, so actually I want to become a Buddha first.

Audience: Well not for selfish reasons necessarily...

Rimpoche: Yeah.... that's maybe the excuse. [Audience chuckles]

Audience: No, I don't really agree. Because it seems if you're a Bodhisattva and there's someone there that's more capable than you, for the good of all sentient beings you would let them go first.

Rimpoche: Will you?

Audience: Naturally, sure. Of course.

Audience, Other: Because then you will be in good with the Buddha. [Audience and Rimpoche laugh]

Audience: Noooo, that's not why! Because that would be ultimately for the good of all sentient beings.

Rimpoche: How do know that's not excuse?

Audience: Well I can't speak for everyone else, I can only speak for what I think.

Rimpoche: Ok, for you, are you sure you are going to do that?

Audience: Yes!

Rimpoche: Hmm! We got a lot of witnesses.

Audience: That's okay.

Rimpoche: Yes, Supa?

Audience, Supa: I think just from a method point of view it seems like that's one of the great mysteries because that's the big dichotomy. Because the whole idea is just so that you can generate the energy to strive for that ideal, which really isn't possible until you've given up the striving. So the whole idea is to keep that- you kinda chase your tail, so you give up chasing it then you can really see what it means to give other people without putting yourself, bringing yourself in the way there.

0:57:00.1

Like Aura is saying, you can't really see it until you're at the end but in order to get to the end you have to be having that attempt, that try-mind kinda thing, to deserve. It is that dichotomy because- it's selfish in a sense but in order to overcome that selfishness you have to get to that place of selflessness, but the whole idea is just the method to get there, the process that you go through to get there.

Rimpoche: Selflessness and not being selfish is I think two different things. Yeah, I think it is totally two different things. Because Aura take one step backwards going on with the ignorance and by that time everything is cut and two-steps forward but that sense but if you don't put it that way and use the selflessness and not being selfish, I think two different things, totally.

Audience, Supa: I think not being selfish implies that if you saw someone there like you're still going through the method and you're using that technique of not being selfish by giving, by generosity, you know, but that ultimate goal is that selflessness.

Rimpoche: No. The ultimate goal is selfish. Why I give? I want to be rich. Why I have morality? I want to be pure.

Audience, Supa: Who's the I?

Rimpoche: Me!

Audience, Supa: Who are you?

Rimpoche: Me!

Audience, Supa: Who's that person that wants to get somewhere?

Rimpoche: Ah-ha, that's is me, continuation of me. Sometimes I have the name of Gelek, sometimes I have the name of Rimpoche, sometimes I am Mr. Gelek.

Audience, Supa: They're just labels.

Rimpoche: No, no no.

Audience, Supa: Well what are they then. Are they real?

Rimpoche: Yes!

Audience, Supa: They're real empirically but they're not real ultimately.

Rimpoche: Ultimately may not be real, doesn't matter. I'm real. Yes, real enough. Mm-mmm [Rimpoche chuckles triumphantly] Otherwise I would be less of it, so then it would it would be only physical body and nobody's living inside. You go and knock the door, you think there is somebody there, and you knock the door, you open the door, and you found nobody. Empty house! That's not right. It becomes what robot or what?

Audience: Robot, yeah.

Rimpoche: Robot. Then what is different between the robot and that being? The robot will also move, that being also move. That is different, so the main point comes if you exist relatively is it good enough

1:00:00.5

to be exist. If you exist relative, you've heard that before...

Audience, Aura: No, that's not what I was responding to.

Rimpoche: Let me get that through. If you are exist relatively you are good enough to be exist. If you do not exist absolutely it doesn't matter but you exist relatively it is good enough to be exist. So if you loose the basic fundamental "I" with the selflessness then what will happen you become nihilistic.

Audience, Aura: Ah-ha. Nihilistic.

Rimpoche: Nihilistic. But there are a lot of Buddhist schools do accept that way! Huh? There are Buddhist schools that do accept that way. I can't say it's wrong but I'm presenting and arguing from the other side of it. Just like I told you earlier, "candle blow".

Audience, Supa: Mmhmm, right.

Rimpoche: The same way, that's what happen. Here they will say, "Alright, beginning you didn't really didn't exist but you only realize you did not exist by the time you see emptiness. So then you only little left over and then also go, then you go into the empty, you disappeared. Like a candle blow." I didn't say that is wrong but that is the viewpoint, they present, one school. But the Mahayana viewpoint will refute more than that, they'll say no that is not the case. If you exist relatively it is good enough to exist but there is something in that. There is not an empty house, there' somebody living in there, there's somebody called "I", which is continuation of discontinuity from the point of impermanent. But from the point of existence it is somebody who came from samsara who will go into Nirvana and still exist and become a Buddha. That's what it is.

Audience, Supa: But you're free?

Rimpoche: Yes, totally.I mean that means free does not depend on not-existing, becomes fundamental difference. [Audience member laughs] What happened? What time did you tell me to stop?

Audience: Lunch is ready when you're ready to stop.

Rimpoche: No but what you told me some time.

Audience: The people are coming at four so we need to eat...

Rimpoche: Not my four.. oh three yeah. You told me stop at three right? Okay. Well, we did work out the foundation of morality, some kind of thing.

1:03:00.4

You can still think and we can discuss and we can argue and we can get some point. Okay? The trick of argument is push the person, not let it go on the idea where they want it to go. Trick of debate, actually. I cried so much, you know, I cried so much once. I remember it was between between my father and Kyabje [indistinguishable- Rubche] Rimpoche, who was then, and I had to say the abbot of Loseling Kampo has no pants on- no lower skirt on that. I had to say it! Because the argument come in that way, I was trying to self- Loseling, when you are in Loseling studying the abbot is sort of symbol, doesn't matter the person, the abbot is the symbol or head off it. So I was very proud and my father started debating with me. And then Kyabje "Rubche" Rimpoche also joined him and I had to say "Loseling abbot has no clothes underneath, the lower part is naked", I had to say, I don't want to say it, I'm forced to say it. Because some kind of where you go is something wrong, which leads to- it's like a watch, if you're wrong somewhere it push you wrong direction and then ultimately you will go to that point where you see you're really wrong. So I cried and cried and cried. Probably I was twelve or thirteen that time maybe, no! No, I was sixteen, that time, yeah, I was that time. You know I cried, so that is the point. So the trick is not let the people go on the way they want to go, because you get catch. Catch is the one you say something wrong, you catch one there, so then you push them off. If you don't get catch then you can't push them off, they will go. Okay we can have lunch, right?

[End of file, audio cuts-out-1:05:18.6]