Archive Result

Soundfile 19900602GRAALR3

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Ann Arbor

Topic LamRim 1990 files

Transcriber Robin Trimarchi

Date 02252023

(Note: student comments are edited, paraphrased and quoted, to give context to Rimpoche’s responses)

0:00:00.0 … a true, a deep true wishing of, uh, you being well and happy, and joyful. Without my, anything added. Without my desires added. Did you get it? Without my, the moment my desire was added on that, and then its, eh, no matter whatever you may say, for benefit of this and for benefit of that, but it is for benefit of me. So, which we call it, true love, true compassion. Which is, sort of, beyond our imagination. Which is beyond our, we cannot comprehend how I can do that. We try to comprehend how to start and comprehend that to me. It’s not possible. Not possible. One. But it is, it is possible if you really care. As the true wish of being well to somebody, it is possible for, from us, for us to develop if you really care for that person. Take one person. Right? If you really care for one individual, so then we can be, it’s possible to have a true wish for that. Possible. You know what I mean? And that’s what we can accommodate. Many Americans do accommodate that. I really care for this person, or her or for him, so, it’s not going to be me, but, I wish, I really sincerely wish and that, being able to, being able to help whenever he or she need it and there, and all this are become possible to Americans. We can see it, we do see it, and that’s happening, it’s possible to at least one individual basis we can see it round. And that goes on.

0:03:03.0 And that is possible because the care is there on the heart of that particular person. So, the person be able to push your self-desire, selfish interests aside and make yourself available to that, because of the care what you have in there. Right? We see that. Once we see the example, we can enlarge that. If one is possible, hundreds is possible. And if hundreds are possible, thousands possible. If thousands possible, a million’s possible. And millions possible, a billion’s possible. So, everything’s possible. Where we can see it, so we can do it. But, you have to care for billions. The caring mind has to be not only for one but have to be for billions of people. Okay? So, in order to care in the billions of the person, person, you need to know what is this people are for you. I mean, what do I got to do with these people. Nobody cares for anything unless there is some reason, or some purpose or something. So, you have to have care for the others, some reason has to be developed, some reason has to known to you. Which you don’t have developed, it’s already [?]. So, what is that reason? So, comes the cause number four. Right?

0:06:01.3 Number three. Come cause number three. Which is knowing that I have been cared and loved by that and this person. No. Not only in knowing, actually the knowing will do. Knowing will do. I really have to do something for that, they did so much for me. You do that, don’t we? Don’t we say that? They did so much for me, so, I really have to do something for them. We always say that. So, knowing business. Knowing what? Knowing they have been kind. Not only they have been kind, they have protected you. They have chosen you. They have been able to choose themselves to die rather than you, for yourself. So, that’s, what we call it, remembering kindness. It becomes step number two. And if we have the step number two, the step number three is automatic. If you are debted to somebody, indebted to somebody, you have to definitely do something. That is in our good quality of human beings, you have that. You don’t have to put any efforts to develop that. Did you get it? So, in order to get that, uh, acknowledging of their, they cared for you, they sort of, they went to the extent of choosing their life over, over your life, and you need recognition. The best recognition here is recognizing as mother being.

Sort of, ah, sort of, called the Tibetan great teacher used to have, used to use this expression called [TIBETAN].

0:09:03.8 So, the ultimate, the ultimate, sort of, friend, the ultimate source of seeking protection, help. I do not know how the America here, people functions. In Tibet, it functions, if child, they have some problems, they say, ‘Ma!’ Always call, ‘Ma!’ So, the automatic inclining, calling for mother for protection, or seeking help. So, somehow you have uninformed knowledge of, eh, rather self-conscious knowledge of knowing the mothers are there to protect you. They even choose you over their life. That not necessarily have to be true for all mothers, but majority is like that. Sometimes some mothers are very harsh. But then if your mother, you know. Why you have to be harsh. So, so, that’s, this is sort of, ah, I think one pushes other, one pushes other, so that’s why they call first six are called ‘cause,’ and the seventh is the ‘result.’ Because one brings other, one make it other possible. Otherwise, when we talk over there, it is totally crazy. But when you talk down here, and when you take now, I introduce you step backwards, right? Now, the next minute you go forwards. You go forwards, then it’s, one pushes the other. It’s not the, this is, sort of, mechanism of its own. When you started pushing the button, there’s more difficult is, to pressing the buttons. Once you press the button, the rest of the mechanism will work by itself. That is the backward of introducing. It’s backwards, right? Backwards. And now, we will talk forwards, okay? So, before we talk forwards, I think we stop here.

0:11:49.9 [TIBETAN] [side comments and conversation. Tape cuts off and resumes]

0:13:28.4 So, that’s how things work. Did you get it? (laughter) [GR: what happened? Oh, I said it in Tibetan] Okay, I just read it, this, because, eh, it goes on and says, eh, so, this one brings the next step. So, for this one shouldn’t be, eh, impatient. And if you keep on practicing it, it will definitely grow. And not only the bodhimind can grow, even to the Buddha stage you can definitely reach. Because it says [TIBETAN]. Here it goes and said, um, generally the Kadampa tradition is, has a very important techniques, and specially, this seems sounded like little bit of Gelugpa propanganda. Specially, eh, great Tsongkhapa tradition is really, actually, eh, the warm breath of Manjushri herself. So, it has complete path of sutra and tantra both. Not only it’s having the complete path of sutra and tantra, but the difficult points are very much emphasized. So, it is, now this is really propaganda. [TIBETAN] It is much more profound than that of other traditions that have come earlier in Tibet. (chuckles) Takpo (?) Lama Rinpoche goes on say, and that’s why some people don’t like Pabongka much, because, oh, he’s emphasize always Gelugpa [can’t catch this]. But Takpo Lama Rinpoche, he has good, one of my great teacher, he refers to his teacher from Takpo village who, who taught him this Lamrim tradition, not taught him, who, he had listened Lamrim many times, but finally what he finally listened to Takpo Lama Rinpoche, he call always Takpo Lama Rinpoche, so we all called Takpo Lama Rinpoche. So, it is in [cannot catch this] from Takpo area. So, he always refers ‘my, Takpo Lama Rinpoche.’ Takpo is the place, province in Tibet. [?]

0:16:44.4 So, sometime he says, Takpo Lama Rinpoche, sometimes [??] Lama Rinpoche, he says, ‘My great protector, His Holiness Lama Rinpoche.’ So, [TIBETAN]. He said, the earlier Tibetan traditions will also help tremendously to bring Tsongkhapa’s, erm, we always refer as [TIBETAN], pure golden dharma. Um, he says [TIBETAN]. The [Tibetan name] is one of the earlier lama who first wrote a contradiction for Tsongkhapa, and later he, sort of, regretted and wrote a praise for Tsongkhapa. He said, [TIBETAN]. He said, in general, sutra and tantra, and specially for tantra, [TIBETAN], among the tantras, specially for the maha anu yoga tantra, uh, [TIBETAN]. Great stages and specially at the illusion body development. [TIBETAN] Tsongkhapa has made a very great contribution. Which Tibetans always like to say, [TIBETAN], which is not clear before, very, very clear. And [Dorje (name?)], one of the great [Tibetan names and places], [TIBETAN], all the fine explanations of sutra and tantra came from the great Tsongkhapa. So, he said they have prayers like that, and that’s truthness praising Tsongkhapa. [TIBETAN] Otherwise, [TIBETAN] he said, otherwise, a way from this sort of practice, lot of people will say, what this practice can deliver Buddhahood in your own hand. From the palms. But it is big (talk and a name?), it’s very difficult even to deliver the, the lowest level of the first path, which is tshogs lam, accumulation path. Which is divided into three categories. With the lower category of accumulation path is also difficult, to catch up. [TIBETAN]

0:19:45.5 If you go through this stage of Lamrim development and Buddhahood can really deliver in your, on your palms. [TIBETAN] So, that also, unless you develop very stage by stage, it will not develop. So, in order to take steps, this first introduction of recognition, the recognition of also recognizing every sentient being as your ultimate friends. That is, mother beings. So, this so important to emphasize on that. [begin in Tibetan, sidetracked into side conversation]. [TIBETAN] So, the few who would like a pleasure and happiness, but if you keep on creating non-virtuous, so, it has gone wrong direction. Similarly, you’re desire to become Buddhahood, but you don’t want to develop this very mind. That’s also going in wrong way. [TIBETAN] So, farther goes on and said, if you do not try to develop bodhimind properly, and try to do any Vajrayana practice, you will not reach to the Buddha levels. And example what he has given from Lhasa, the [?] area is the west part of Lhasa, Gompo (?) is eastern part of [?], sorry, Gompo (?) is eastern part of Lhasa, and [?] is western part of Lhasa. So, he says, somebody will go and ride a horse. You know, Tibet has no road, there is a road but there’s no sign or anything. They don’t say, ‘To Chicago.’ They don’t say at all. So, you keep on riding a horse and go, go, go, go, go, and after some time, days and days, and after some time you think, well, there is a town here, it must be [?] now.

0:22:46.3 So, you get down and you recognize, you realize you reach Gompo (?), completed all of the directions. So, there’s nothing we show. So, it can be like that. He said, if you don’t try to develop bodhimind, you keep on working hard, through a practice of Vajrayana without bodhimind, and then you keep on, after some time you think you become a Buddha, and you realize you have gone miles away the opposite direction. So, so, therefore it is absolutely necessary to develop this bodhimind through you. Should I continuously read for a little while? Maybe not. Well, I guess I found little more, further more, little more Gelugpa propaganda [?] business. So, not really, I should not say propaganda [?], but it seen the qualities. (long pause) Well, in short, if we want, if we want develop this bodhimind, then whatever you it becomes dharma, that also Mahayana dharma, and direct cause to enlightenment. I think we did that at the benefit level already. So, so, in order to be one of, among the practices, um, this is very, very important practice. More important than meditating yourself in the form of deity, saying mantras. And these are the small branch of practice. The essence of the real practice is developing the bodhimind. And developing the points given as the Lamrim. And among them, it’s also essence of this has to be the bodhimind.

0:25:51.2 So, if you don’t have this, but if you may spend whole your life in the empty mountains, but whatever you may try to meditate, whatever you may try to do something, instead of becoming your closer to Buddhahood, and you can go very far away. So, everybody should take this as essence of practice. Okay. Now, let’s go on that, eh, then the second step. After developing equivalent, eh, well, I think there’s still much more. After developing the equanimity, then the, among the seven step,s the first step, recognition of everybody as ultimate friend. The sort of, the most closest friend. Do you use the expression of ultimate friend? You don’t. Best friend, okay. The best friend. The best friend here, actually, eh, it becomes, uh, the mother. And if you do not developing according to this, not according to this, but according to the tradition here. If you do not develop this recognizing every sentient being as the best friend, if you do not develop this, um, then probably you will never be able to develop bodhimind. Uh, probably it’s never be able to develop. So, the recognition of everybody, even before recognizing everybody as, uh, best friend, you have to recognize everybody. But how can you recognize everybody? So, the recognizing of everybody is incarnate. And that is incarnate. That is important. If you do not recognize beings as incarnated, then um, you been cut out so much. You been cut out so much. You cut out, cut out essence of, um, [?] practice. So, the recognizing, before you recognize them as best friend, but you recognize every being as incarnated. And that is so important. But then, how can you recognize everybody as incarnate? This is a big question. Very difficult question.

0:29:50.1 Whether everybody is incarnated or reincarnated or not, I think it is very important for ourself to recognize that ourself is reincarnated. Are you reincarnated? Who is reincarnated? [GR asks students. Side conversation] (long pause) This is a very difficult to develop within individual, because there’s not so much way we can prove to ourself that I am reincarnated. Um, of course, we somehow or another we have some indications, um, the best, uh, we can get is reasonable argument, and reasonable, reasonable argument and reasonable coincident … what you call it? Coincidence. So, that makes us think maybe. So, that is the thing, it is a problem. But according to the Buddha, and it’s very funny. The Buddha says the cause of the beings, the mind is such a thing it has be continuation of itself. The mind, in other words, the rocks and the muds and all this type of thing doesn’t make, does not become a cause of mind at all. The mind, cause of mind is always a mind itself.

0:33:01.9 Did you get me? Did you hear me? Mind is always a continuation of mind its kind. The [?] mind cannot become mind. You know, [?] mind. Is the one [?] mind, or what? [students respond: matter] The matters does not become mind at all. That is reasonably we can accept. Can’t we? The matters does not become mind. Mind is always continuation of mind itself. We have problem with that? [student responds: not everyone accepts that] Why not? [students respond: inaudible] What do you mean ridiculous. Why? [student replies: … existential viewpoint is not … (inaudible) … continuation of mind] That doesn’t matter. That is different talk. That is different talk. Can anybody accept the matter becomes mind? [students: yes … Christians, Jews, Muslims believe that God created individuals out of matter. Response continues] Really. [students continue in unison] Why did he need a spirit, if the matter becomes mind? Why do they need a spirit? [student: existential viewpoint] Well, for the existential viewpoint [student shares analysis: mind and matter of one substance] Okay, then why doesn’t the rocks talk? [inaudible response. Laughter, applause] The reason why the rock doesn’t talk. Why doesn’t the monuments talk? [students respond, talking over each other]

0:36:10.7 Well, it’s not only the human beings talk, the dogs talk, too. [student: they bark] Yeah, they talk. The birds talk. Yeah, birds talk, dogs, talk. [students continue to talk over GR] So, even you’re not human beings capacity, but they talk. Among themselves. Yes, they have their communication. They have meetings. The birds have meetings. [student: plants communicate] Plants communicate, not all, but some. [more student comments about plants] Okay, that’s that. So, anyway, that shows difference, in the, in the Buddhist principle. So, that, it really, the matter doesn’t become mind, mind doesn’t become matter. That is in the Buddhist principle. [student question: … why are there spirits of trees and rocks …] There are spirits occupy the trees and rocks. They occupy them They make a base out of it. They remain in there. Sort of, you know, that’s what I’m told, yeah. Isn’t that interesting? [student question: … is there no new life, no new beings] That’s that. That’s that. [student continues: … no new creation ever, same old people] Yes. Same old people. That’s why you recognize each other. That’s why, you know, the Ram Dass is saying, recognize. Didn’t he say recognizing? There’s nobody which you don’t recognize. Huh? [student comment: … but there’s new human birth] Yeah, that’s new human birth. But it’s new being. It is new human being, but there’s [students talking over GR] Well, you may not recognize, that’s true. I mean, there, you may not recognize, but it’s not that you’re never before. [student comment/question: possibility of meeting someone you’ve never before] I doubt it. Think about billions and billions and billions of life that one went through with a different, billions and billions and billions of companionship that we went through. It’s very difficult to, uh, get somebody which we’ve not been … [students talking over GR]

0:39:12.0 I didn’t use the word ‘recognize,’ that is my wrong [?] This question is, isn’t there somebody who not been with you before, not contact. [student responds] The remembering is limited. The Ram Dass’s point is, try to recognize they’re all your old friends you made. That’s what his point is. Huh? [student comment: I have trouble with that] Trouble with what? [student responds. Conversation ensues among students] This is interesting. Yeah. Theoretically, yeah, nothing has been proved, right? But the Buddha says that. And that’s why Buddha said, ultimately there will be time to become all sentient beings will be enlightened. Because there’s nothing new sentient being coming up. [student: why not?] Why not? Because the mind is mind, matter is matter. [students respond: where does the mind arise from to begin with] That’s, there’s no answer. That question was rasised and Buddha doesn’t answer. [students continue: … where does the mind come from to begin with … if no new minds can arise, wasn’t the mind ever new, or was it never new?] Probably never new. Probably never new, yeah. [TIBETAN] There was one Indian professor, uh, he’s called Buddhist professor, and uh, he always give lecture, when I’m seeing him many times. He give lectures, seminars, wherever he go, he talk this. He says, Buddha has been asked, Buddha has been asked, where is the beginning of the human, beginning of the mind? Buddha came to great [?]. He look up and down, he says, normally he does, [can’t catch this] So, this silence is a great answer. That’s what he goes on to say. But actually, the book says, [TIBETAN]

0:42:15.4 And, they said, they says, Buddha doesn’t answer that. Buddha doesn’t answer that because the answer, whatever he going give it, it’s not going to be very much acceptable to the people until, unless and until people themselves sees and feels and experience it. So, Buddha doesn’t answer that, really true. Doesn’t answer. But he insists the mind is always continuation of mind. And the matters are continuation of itself. That was the big division between the mind and matter. [student comment: the mind is always individuated] Individuated. And it will occupy the matters. Now for our, for example, our body is matter. And our mind comes in and occupies. And when we started producing the different skandhas, and different consciousnesses, and then communicating, and that’s how [drops off]. And uh, that’s what it is. [student question: isn’t the body produced by karma] Body does not, uh, body does not produce by, yeah, that’s produce, your body produced by your karma, as well as, it is material. If there is no material, no matter how much your karma may be there, the body does not produce. [student comment/question: … there can’t be matter then without mind] What do you mean? [student continues … rocks don’t have minds themselves … inaudible. (Second student comments): … you’re saying that there’s no sentient being that we haven’t encountered, but you’re implying that’s there’s no beginning] Sure. And that’s why when they say, ‘when it started,? Buddha keep quiet.

0:44:59.4 Will there be end? He says, yes individual ends. But he doesn’t say, he doesn’t say. He keep quiet. He keep completely quiet. Question is, is there end for the samsara. But not even samsara, [TIBETAN] existence. So, Buddha [can’t catch this]. [student comment: inaudible] He didn’t say [?]. Beginning or end, both. And that’s why, even the arhats now. The arhats are, it’s not necessarily it is absolute, what we say, in absolute Buddhist views. Even the arhats are, after sometime, leave the arhat level and [can’t catch this], because that’s the Mahayana viewpoint. Because doesn’t disappear. But Theravadans say, the existence is result of suffering, or result of non-virtuous. Every existence. Now for them. So, the body is the result of, um, the form is the result of, um, of non-virtuous and suffering. So, the one individual obtains arhat, he will be arhat till he dies. Arhat was left [fades off, can’t catch this] And after he died, [TIBETAN] They say, if you become arhat, then when you die that’s the end of it. They say there is no continuation. The form will dismantle and your body has become … (0:46:54.0) [TAPE GOES SILENT]

0:47:07.2 But then, Mahayana tradition knowing, doesn’t it? [Tibetan name] know. And they have to continue. So, they cannot remain in this, this full, full, full, joyful, full, almost semi-zombie period. You cannot remain in that. (chuckles) [side comment] Uh, you cannot remain that very long time, and so you rejoin in the Mahayana because the matter remains to be matter, and the mind remains to be mind. [student question: what’s the source of the matter…] Atoms. Whatever it is. [student question: what does existence depend on …] Off of that quality, of that different times. [student: inaudible] There is no nature of mind at all. But the karma involvement, yes. There’s tremendous karmic involvement. [student continues: the source is ignorance, then] Huh? No. The moment you talk about ignorant, it becomes mind, [?] mind related. Ignorance does not produce. [student continues to talk over] Ignorance does not produce. Ignorance does not produce rock. Ignorance does not produce word. [student continues: … it seems like it begins to talk about separation, like with the Theravadan, in order to have the arhat situation and have the individual liberation, then there is complete separation between an individual and all sentient beings …] Why not? There is complete separation, yes. [student continues: … individuation …] What do mean? [can’t understand GR, something about individual … Student comments inaudible] What do you mean ‘very separate?’ But it’s not loneliness. [student continues: right, it’s not loneliness …] No, no, she probably was thinking of some kind floating … [student continues: partially inaudible … some separation I’m having trouble with … inaudible] Even the Mahayana, the separate independent is there. [student: inaudible]

0:50:00.2 Yeah. Independent … if you have look at independent, you have to look individual beings and individual. And when individual, because if you look them as to try to flow them together, and then your karmic position, non-virtuous, and everything get mixed up. You can’t. [student continues: so, when you get past division and karma, then you don’t have the need …] Need of what? [student continues: to maintain a sense of individuation] But if you can float in the, in something like that, why don’t you flow from the beginning? So, it’s not, it’s not that. Neither, neither you build, maybe some kind of information you’re holding at the back. We have beginning we have together. Then the (dark?) falls out and when separated, and lost completely, and then find very difficult to come back to that flow (float?). Something like that in your head. Must be sitting. Like those ants. You know, all the ants beginning there together in their own house. And everybody goes out to find food. And one gets somewhere else, and very difficult to get back. It’s very hard, difficult, somehow they found it back. So, so, you find all this delusions and non-virtuous are on, between on that way, and ultimately all this obstacle been cleared, and you reach back to the queen ant. Queen ant. So, you’re thinking something like that, and then that might have been problem. [student continues: inaudible] Wherever it comes from, it doesn’t matter. But you have to remember it is individual. Individual. You don’t have to accept because I said so. But there are lot of other problems. If you do not accept individual, then there’ll be karmically, it’s not possible to find. [student continues] Yeah, it is not a temporary thing, you know. [different student comment: are you thinking of the individuality aspect as the result of delusion?] That’s what she’s thinking. See, I’m getting at that. And you think it’s sort of, you know, it’s part of something there, and some, some your ignorant, you dropped out and lost from the basic source, and you’re flying in space somewhere, and then everybody try to find you. You’re try … the buddhas are going around, bodhisattvas are going around, try to find the little piece. And the little piece trying to search everywhere, and you can clear all your delusions, problems, and you find mothership back and get in it. That’s what you’re getting. Something like that [?] So, maybe it is, maybe it’s mutual work. [second student question: … does matter arise from mind, did you ask that? (student answers): when a comment was made that our form is the result of our karma, then I raised the question, what about form that has no mind, it is the result of collective karma or what?]

0:53:11.7 It is collective karma plus it is, it is matters. Whatever the substance matters, are the atoms that are collected in that. And the Buddhism goes so detail how they divided the atoms. Very, very detail. Tremendous detail. [student comment: … what I don’t know is where the matter comes from] Matter is nothing but collection of atoms. [students talk over each other] Why do they have to come from where? They don’t have to come from anywhere, it’s around. [students talk over each other] That is the non-Buddhist way. Why it has to come from? Why? [students talk. How can things be produced without cause, it’s not a vacuum, etc] No, listen very carefully. Buddhism in the talk, there is nothing without cause, is, eh, it is the relative with beings. That’s what we’re talking about. [student comment: I think the problem is that I’m speaking in linear time] What? What does linear time mean? [student continues: linear comes from the word line, straight, that’s how we think] Oh, I see. [student continues: … then you would think there is always a beginning … cause and effect …] Cause and effect is there. That is the individual’s friend, straight. But then there’s a lot of cross air, horizontal things going around. Everything’s going around. The circle’s round, everything’s there. [student comment: … where I get stumped is this radical separation, it’s fashionable and popular to be thinking of consciousness and (?), even in the material world there’s a consciousness, there’s no spot without consciousness, that way of thinking would be like about the stones, they have a consciousness, but it’s not human consciousness, low-level consciousness]

0:56:42.1 Well it’s not even the, no, no, it’s not, sorry, it’s not. Even the stone there is consciousness, but it is not a stone consciousness. It is the consciousness of somebody else. Not the stone. Whoever has been there. Whoever be around. When you say there is no place where there is no consciousness, that’s true. [student continues: so, in existence …] Okay, that’s true. But, but the question remains - who’s consciousness is that? If it’s like we have consciousness, we pointed to our body, which consciousness is this. This is my consciousness, that’s me, right? We say ‘me,’ whoever that ‘me’ might be. So, similarly you cannot say, you point out stone and say this consciousness, who’s consciousness this? Oh, this is spiritual called so-and-so’s consciousness. And how come it’s in the stone? Because this spirit happens to be occupying that little place. [student comment: … earth as a being…] Oh, earth itself, I don’t think it is, um … [student continues: … solar systems don’t have beings, planets don’t have beings] I don’t believe earth is being, I don’t know about the solar system. I don’t anything about it. Earth has occupying, eh, one big occupying mind within that, being there. That is called ‘Goddess of Earth.’ Yeah, Goddess of Earth is in occupation of earth, but it’s not earth itself. That is difference between Buddhism and [voice fade, can’t catch it] [student commet: basically the Goddess of Earth doesn’t need the earth] Yes. She can, she can survive without earth. She happens to be on earth, but her independ, dependence does not depend on the earth. The earth depends on the, the different parts of the earth. But the Goddess of Earth doesn’t, existence does not depend on the earth.

0:59:01.5 But she may become Goddess of Moon. But, eh, that’s possible. She moon rather than she earth. [student chatter… are there external forms without matter …] No, there’s a, there are, there are, there are consciousness without matters. Without form, without matters. So, all this formless consciousness are totally exist. [student continues: still in this space and time without matter] Without matter, yes. Formless. Disembo (fumbles pronunciation), disembodied point. [student comments: mind only. (earlier student continues): do you think of that as a more subtle kind of matter, they take form …] There is no matter for whatsoever. Because it is total, not, not even a [?] It is total formless. So, no form, form whatsoever. That’s big question. But they don’t see each other. They don’t see each other. [students continue to chatter in background] I do not know how they communicate each other. I do not know. I do not know. That’s big question, whether the formless have meetings. And you know those spirit come into trance, trance, like we see (name) and all this. Spirit that come into trance. They refer themself ‘formless.’ [TIBETAN] The formless mind. I’m borrowing this and that form, I’m talking to you. But so many, they always have formless. So, what happened was, during the Sixth Dalai Lama’s period, there was big trouble in Tibet. Sixth Dalai Lama behaved very naughty, completely and things like that. This some big trouble. The Mongols are coming into power, they try to kick him out, and all this thing. And then the Drepung Monastery, they, they, they had this, eh, the protector, the Tibet government protector called, eh, [TIBETAN] It’s also the protector of the Drepung Monastery. So, they get, eh, came into trance, and saying, telling, him and tell truth. And said, truth, whether this is the true reincarnation of [TIBETAN] or not. Make, say, truth. So, this one go, said, if it’s not truth, my head [TIBETAN], says my formless head may crack into thousand pieces.

1:02:00.7 So, there’s one incarnate lama called [Name?] Rinpoche who’s standing there, he said, ‘What are you talking? Formless! Where you get the formless head?’ (chuckles) [Name?] said, ‘Where is the formless head? If you are formless, how can you get a head? And how can it crack?’ He said total nonsense. (chuckles) That’s what it is. [students laugh] Then the Mongols got him. Yeah, Mongols got him, took him out, and took him out completely, and then they, then they recognize another Sixth Dalai Lama. Six, there are two Sixth Dalai Lamas. That’s why. There two Sixth Dalai Lamas. One is known as [TIBETAN], that is the naughty one. And there’s another one called, uh, what is his name? What? [conversation with students about Dalai Lama names] Oh, the, the name of the Dalai Lama is got during the third. The title, Dalia Lama is a title. The title was given during the third. That’s what it is. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. No. The Penchen, Penchen Lama is the, the First Penchen Lama is Third Penchen Lama. So, the, the, the official Second Penchen Lama is the Fifth Penchen Lama. Or Fourth Penchen Lama. [students chatter and laugh] So, now let’s get back to our own point, again. Whether the matter produces mind is big question. So, if the matter produces mind, and how can you have incarnation? [student: if the matter produces mind?] Yeah. [student responds: it would be like the scientists say, your body could just be all matter, there could be no mind, that mind could just be a revolving … ]

1:04:56.1 Yeah, that’s right. So, that’s it. So, then, so, there’s no question to be incarnate. You’re dead you’re gone, you’re gone you’re gone (?), that’s it. So, that’s it. So, that is the principle where the mind produces matter, and matter produces mind, or not. So, in the Buddhist, and I think in Hinduism, all this, Eastern religion probably, the mind is always result of mind and matters are [?] mind. Matter is always result of matter. And there goes atoms, and tremendous amount of small, and they goes up to, something called [TIBETAN]. Always you can pair, pair, pair, two, two, two, pair, pair, pair, and then another one at the end it goes, you cannot even make it. It not even possible to make a pair. So, called [TIBETAN]. The moment you can make two pair, it becomes [TIBETAN]. And that is, that’s tremendous amount. I mean, it is completely beyond, I mean I can see, or something like that. So, then this collective of those atoms, atoms what do we call it? All this… that becomes different matters. You can make teapot out of it, you can make a rug out of it, you can make anything out of it. But you cannot make a being out of it. [student comment about the western modern, philosophical view … composed of energy, there is a lower, more primary substance, and that substance that emerges as matter is somehow like consciousness … but it’s not like it’s separate. It’s not like there’s this inert thing is inhabited by something …] And you know what, you know what, you know what Buddha says? Even this, nothing can compare that. That carries four elements. Even that carries four elements. Even the tiniest, tiniest, you cannot make a pair, carries four elements. [student comment: inaudible] Yeah, that’s possible. Smallest container, yes, why not? The, the energy of the element does not need physical form. So, therefore, it can maintain content in smallest container. [student comment: inaudible] I do not know, what did we call it? Huh? [student comment: so you’re saying that there is an underlying energy like the one …] Well, there is like four elements there.

1:08:02.4 Which we call it, which we may like to call it ‘energy.’ Whatever you call it, that’s four … [students interrupt, student comment: then wouldn’t you be able to break it down by dividing it up into those elements?] You cannot. You have break everything completely, and even then there is, even then that has, that, even then that little tiniest, unbreakable four, four elements exist. [students continue, have been talking over GR. Someone asks a question: … so the question before about the problem of personal identity (students talk over) you start talking in terms of absolutes, in which there is no (inaudible), there is no dualistic or categorical consciousness, and so forth. Then, how do we make any distinction between I or individual minds forming (to) mind and matter.] Let’s get more, let me get little more clear. [student comment: … we’re led to understand that when we begin to operate or contemplate the nature of mind and so forth in the absolute rather than from the (?) perspective that there are real distinctions, there is no dividuation whatsoever. So, here we’re making primary distinctions between mind and matter … and are willing to assume that they are distinct in kind. And yet, I wonder from the absolute perspective, when we get to that level of contemplation, will we make any of these distinctions at all … what would be the nature of our (?) mindstreams, for instance] The mind doesn’t break like this atoms, what we’re talking about it. The mind is mind, it has no form. No changeable nothing, right? It is continuation, it’s of existent of its own. And it wanders round, and it’s from, time to time, it occupies different basis. And function from that basis. And from time to time it goes without any basis. So, when you, when it goes without any basis it becomes formless. When it is, sort of, occupies certain basis it becomes, sometimes, it becomes human beings. Sometime, it’s been trees. Sometimes it’s beings, um, [student comments: inaudible]

1:10:57.6 No, no. What you mean result relative point of view? What does that mean? [student: this is all from a relative point of view] What do you mean? [student continues: from absolute point of view. GR stops her] Oh, yeah, we’re talking about (origins of it?) Okay. Between relative and absolute, yes, we’re talking about, we’re talking only about relative point of view. We’re not even touching the absolute point at all. Okay. But the point is, you have to remember, if you exist relatively, it is good enough to be exist. [student comment: inaudible] Okay, so, relatively, if you exist it is good enough. So, they are talking about relative truth. Relative truth is truth. Absolute truth is truth. That’s why you have two truths. Absolute and relative. Yeah, really true, yeah. [student comments: it’s funny] Why? Why? Is there what? What you mean? You want to the whole truth. Nothing but the truth. [student comments: ... is there a point where you’re not limited to the relative truth] What do you mean? [student talk over each other] You want the whole truth, okay. Nothing but the truth. [student comment: … it sounds like you get to the point where, if there’s individuation after Buddhahood …] Why not? [student continues: that there is an inherent-ness to each individual person …] Yes, you’re right. You’re right. There is inherent-ness, but there is not inherent existence. Yeah, there is inherent, there is continuation of it. [students talk over GR. Comment: … but it seems like then, if you get into individuality you immediately inherent existence] No, you don’t. See, you seek difference in between. Okay. There is continuation. [student comment: … relativity exists after Buddhahood, relativity doesn’t cease to exist, it’s not like we just use relativity and then relativity is gone …] So, if you think that that is the problem of thinking emptiness has ended. So, what would happen is you’re, now are looking at it, ‘ah, this is our,’ again I’m talking to you like container. [students comment: inaudible] What? It’s from [?]. [student chatter] Those are talking. Okay. So, what I’m, I, I, I give you that analogy that you said this floating business earlier, I talked to you, right? You talked about mothership, space, and all this.

1:14:08.8 Now here you, or rather the thing what you have is, you say, ‘oh, in reality I’m empty. And I don’t see that emptiness, I’m here, all this existing, existing, existing. And try to get them out, get them out, get them out. And finally, I see the big empty.’ And I get disappeared. So, if you think emptiness is empty, that’s what happens. Absolute truth as empty. [student comment: I’m not saying disappear, though] Then, yeah, observe on something. So, the, so, the individual identity will be lost, gone. That’s what you’re thinking. [student comment: … that’s linear, too …] Linear is this, right? Okay. So, instead of going this way, it’s going, (chuckles), crossway. Or, from that way [students laugh] Instead of going that way, it started going this way. So, I believe something like that happens anyway. So, if you, because of the, the whole idea of reincarnation is based on that. Really. The reincarnation is, is possible because the mind produces mind. Mind is continuation, doesn’t produce. Again, the word ‘producing’ probably be wrong word. Mind is continuation of mind. And matters are continuation of materials. So, the mind is continuation of mind, and so, therefore, there is a limit of mind. That’s how it comes. [student: the limit is to itself] The limit is, there’s a number limit, you know, I mean. There’s no new. There may be, [student interrupts] there may be, there may be millions of mind. It doesn’t sort of, don’t think of producing like, you know, bunch of grains in, in a one measured in, in a container. Don’t think that way. Think the mind as, as um, what I’m talking about? I don’t even know what I’m talking. [student replies: it’s more vast … student talk over] Yeah, it’s when I said limited, don’t think ah, don’t think of limit what you can measured by the containers. But limit by, by itself. By itself. So, therefore that changes continued, continuous, continuous.

1:17:01.9 Straight (?) that into that. And even after Buddha, it will continue. So, the only difference is, it is continual with the pain, or continual without pain. Continual with limitation, or continual without limitation. So, when you talk about enlightenment, it’s continual without limitations from its knowledge point of view, from its quality point of view, or from its joyfulness point of view. Okay? This is gone beyond Lamrim. We’re talking, this is, this is what the, this is what the, what the para, para, para, para, what is it? This is (?)paramita, yeah. No. Pramana. It is pramana and abidharma mixed. And mixture of abidharma and pramana. What is pramana? Dharmakirti’s, um, the logical thing, yeah. Yeah, this is, this is the peace (?) point. So, so, when this mind is continuation of mind, so, there is, mind is not limited to this or that, one or two lives. So, it is, sort of, gone millions of different. So, millions of different companions. Millions of different, eh, mother. Millions of different father. The millions of different children. So, there is no stranger. That’s how pramana works. It is clear, (name)? [student comments: … but even with this limited universe, there has to be some, in order for this to be true, this relatedness, there has to be something that says you gotta have different (inaudible)] Not necessarily. Different, not necessarily same. You cannot have same all the time, you cannot have different all the time, either. [student replies: you can’t have the same one over and over until you’re related to all of them] It happens. [Student continues: well, then you’re not related to all beings. The point is relatedness to all living things, it’s really not parent relatedness … (different student): but it’s possible parent … students talk over] [GR starts his comment, can’t catch it] …

1:20:00.9 … why they introduce as mother being, because our limited view looking at a child, and the depending of the child to the mother, and all this and this and that makes this mother-being business is again, it is another analogy. Other words, a whole idea is, since this is a being, billions of time, beings best friend of yours in billions of times, why don’t you care for them? That’s the whole idea. [student comment: … who says they were friends] They’re enemies, too. They’re enemies, too. They’re friends, too. [student continues: what if one guy has been an enemy every time] That’s also possible. [student continues] Yeah, that’s possible. That’s possible. That’s possible. Oh, yes, yes, that’s possible. [student continues: … then why is the recognition that they are sweet and wonderful and loving and saved our lives …] Ah. Listen. [students chatter] Yes, there is a point. You’re looking the positive point, you don’t, again the positiveness. The positive points you’re picking up, you’re leaving the negative points out. Because we want bring the positiveness in it. I mean, it’s not that, it’s not, it’s true. This guy’s been repeatedly your enemies. And the guy has been repeatedly chop off your head. And your head’s been put it out on somewhere [?] mountains. And that’s been true. Yeah, that guy can do it again. And also this guy has been friend many times. So, why look from negative point of view, take a positive, follow the madam positive. It’s good stuff. [students comment: … dwelling on the negative because that was either born out of my delusion, or his delusion, or shared delusion. So, in reality all that existed was friends …] Yeah. That’s a, that’s a, that’s a, that also true now. That’s also true. You know, that’s why when you really look from the true point of view, every point has room in it. That’s also true. Now the question rises, I just remembered, and I forgot. Just gone out of my head. And we’re saying it, I just got it, but then I got lost. Hmm? What? [student comment inaudible]

1:22:57.9 Yeah. All the existence are a perfect friend, yes. All the, all the negative points are borne out of non-virtuous. And then, when we don’t pick up that exercise, okay now. The point is, we don’t pick up that mental exercise. Why? Because we don’t want to develop negative. We have fully developed negative. We have reached to the peaked point of the negative. [laughter] We don’t need any more further development. No, no, no, don’t laugh, this is serious. You don’t need to further develop because we have that already fully developed. What we’re lacking in the positive development, therefore, we do take on the positive way. That’s what, when you asked the question it came on my head, and suddenly it disappeared for a little while and come back. That’s a really true point. I mean, it sounded funny, and convenient, but it is true. Yeah. [student comment: this is a little tangential …] That’s okay. We’re already doing tangential, whatever we did today. [student continues: morality, opportunity, we work hard for human existence, how do you get to human birth with such positive actions and then create such negativity (this person does prison work] That’s why you call it ignorance. We blame ignorance all the time. It’s ignorance. One. Two. Creating-karma and functioning-karma is two different karma. Creating-karma is one karma, and functioning, different, millions of different karmas. And completion-karma is one karma. So, therefore, creating-karma might have create some positive. But functioning is going through negative. Beside that, individual would like to go the other way.

1:25:59.8 Your addictions, you bring that way. Like a coffee drinker like to drink coffee. Even you know it’s not good for you. The smokers would like to smoke even though it is not good for you. But it’s, doesn’t mean that you cannot stop smoking if you, if the conditions are right. There is enough publicity, there is enough information, you see it on television, you hear them through radio, you talk to the people, people say this, government comes in the picture, you can’t smoke here, you can’t smoke there, you can’t do that. And it helps with the conditions created. And it helps to change. So, that’s the, that is really, that’s really possible. Commonly, when you’re looking at it, we have no problem. We have a perfect understanding, and we have no problem. When you go, this atoms and matters and mind, we have a problem because this for the first time we’re dealing with that, actually. With karma, I don’t think there’s a problem. Because, you know, it, lot of different karmas, karmas come through. Lot of different habitual patterns go through. Lot of different addictions coming up. So, therefore all of them goes in it. Don’t you think so. Yeah, that is, um, that’s relatively little bit easier than, than matter and mind dealing (chuckles) now. And the floating and not floating. And the dissolving and not dissolving. And individuality and, sort of, general big cloud over there, you know, sort of, big cloud. So, that’s [??]. So, anyway, eh, the Buddha’s idea, or presentation, of the reincarnation is based on that. The mind continuing mind. That’s [?] limits. That makes limit. That makes the limit so, in the principle that also links up the beginning of this life links up to the previous life because mind continuation of mind. So, that’s why we say, when the human beings born, uh, in the mother’s, what you call it? Womb. Why you laugh. [side comments] In the mother’s womb the material conditions are when it’s right. And the mind occupies. Get stuck.

1:28:59.9 That’s the, that idea is because mind is continuation of mind. And if the mind doesn’t get stuck, even the material is, eh, right, we don’t produce baby. [student question: is it the entering beings’ karma or parents’ karma that is bringing in that child] All together. That’s, that, as far as birth is concerned, it is collective karma of the individual being and the parents and everybody. So, that’s why when they say, ‘I give you life,’ they say (chuckles), [can’t catch this] so, who asked you? (chuckles) Who make you? So, this all possible because there’s a collective karma. So, everybody’s involved. It is very good of you to accommodate me, however, it’s your karma. As far as the parents concerned. They did not pick you up and selected you. Probably they wanted a girl, or they wanted a boy or something. You happens to be the thing which they don’t wanted probably. (chuckles) [student comment: … a mother was complaining about how she sacrificed for her children, so the child said, don’t tell me about sacrifice, I didn’t ask to be born. And the mother said, I didn’t ask for you either] So, that’s that. [quiet student chatter] So, the idea of mother, introducing of the mother is analogy. It is analogy, but the whole idea is, you cannot leave anybody out who has neither not been, who has not been your best friend. Also, you cannot leave out anybody who has not been your worst enemy. That’s true fact. But we don’t look in that enemy point of view, but we look in the positive point of view. So, therefore, what we want to develop, we want to develop love/compassion. We don’t to develop hate. And so that’s the whole idea of shifting towards looking positive side [GR’s voice fades]. Anyway, so I talked today this, without talking mother and talked that. But, when you remember the kindness, I can’t do that. Because that doesn’t work. I tried number of times. I used it, everything, it doesn’t work. Okay. That’s the first step. Think about it tonight. I think we stop here tonight. Okay. You people might be getting …. Huh? Might be getting … before we do the, before we do the dedication, let’s switch this to what we have to discuss. [side convervation]. (Tape stops and restarts) We talk about it, we talk about the equanimity, right? Okay, now let me ask question. What kind of equanimity are we talking? [side comment]

TAPE ENDS