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;;;Soundfile 19950400GRNLFF (03)

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Netherlands

Topic Liberation

Transcriber Nina

Date February 16. 2021

0:00:17.7

GR:

Here comes the difference between the holistic doctors and allopathic doctors. The allopathic doctors will treat your symptoms, the holistic doctor will treat the cause. But what you need is both. You need to treat the symptoms otherwise you will be miserable. And you need to treat the cause cause you got to get better. It is not only the time. So that’s why, thats why knowing the cause of the problem . The cause of the problem is nothing then that of karmic cause and that of delusional cause. And when you talk about the karma and the karmic and all this it is very mystical thing. However it is not important. The important point is behind karma, what makes karma. And what makes karma is the delusions. Which of course there is another word they use is something like inflected or conflected emotion which I never know how to say it.

02:21.4

Afflected emotion.or something. Afflected emotion which I never know how to say it. So, how does that emotion function? And that emotion is not is not, you know, whether you call it delusion or what you call it afflected emotion, afflicted emotion (Translator cuts in and repeats , afflictive, afflictive? GR repeats: whatever it is, you know. The point is how it functions. Because if you are referring to anger, hatred, jealous, attachment all this. Thats what it is you are referring to. And how it is functioning with us. It is functioning with us as though as it is our nature. Right? Though it is not our nature. It functions as though we are born with this, this is true, we are born with it, as though it is our nature. Right? So to make it separate from our wonderful nature. To make it separate you need to work . Without working it won’t work.

4:33.6

It’s like a silver or gold. Silver. If you have a silver piece here and if you leave it it tarnishes.

And so much so, so it looks like a little black piece of iron or something. So to make it look like silver to make it shine again, to make it like white metal to make it beautiful what you got to do is to clean it. You got to put that, what you call it ? Silver polish and then you got to take a cloth and clean it. And all this takes a time and energy and efforts. So if you do so, though it looks like a simple pot, it looks like a black rusty metal cup but when you polish it comes out, natural plain clear.

6:10:7

But you got to do something. Just by putting injection and going to sleep won’t work. And that’s the reason why even though some of the drugs have shown something beyond that but you don’t get there because you did not work. And simply we may encounter with many of those solutions but to make it work for ourselves we got to put effort in it. The right effort in. If you get a silver polish and put it and clean it, easily you can clean it. But if you don’t get silver polish you try to wash it with water, try to put soap and use brush and rub everything, no matter how much your work hard, it’s not easy to get off. So it’s not only that you got to work but you got to do the right thing. Rimpoche laughs. And that’s the reason why we are not enlightened today. That’s your thought, a good thought, very good thought, that’s also why it did not work. So any other questions? You do? I think you should ja.

8:32.3.

Woman Audience: I want to know what is it exactly the problem,,what is the reason that people can’t do these efforts?

GR: Very simple question right? Why can’t you do it. Very simple answer.

Audience: laziness!

GR: Yeah, that is one of the answers. I think it is our habit. That’s the simple answer.

Thats it. To change habits is extremely difficult. If you form a short term habit. Let’s say you to to work in the morning, you take a certain direction, certain route, and keep on doing that for one month. Going that route and coming back the same route. And then next day if somebody says would you give me a ride?

And you 10:03.5 [????] have to change your route a little bit, right, change your street from A to B or something. Change your street and what do you do? In your heart you just have to say, yeah because you are obligated right? But in your heart of heart, I have to get up earlier morning, I have to take a different route, I’m not sure that is good and you get irritated. Even simple little habit.

11:23.0

Thats the difficulty. Thats the difficulty. Forget about changing the habit. Even acknowledging habit is becoming a big problem. It pushes too painful buttons. So you don’t want come anyone near the buttons, you like to protect it, you put a shields around, put a wall around. You know there is an animal called porcupine? Thats what it is. Thats why I say habitual. We deal with that, and this is the whole,

12:34.4 two[ ……………………………………………………] anyway.

I guess thats it and if you have any other questions. Yes Sir.

Audience : Inaudible

Translator: Can western types of therapies have a function within Buddhism and what therapies?

GR: Definitely. I don’t know that much about therapy because I don’t know anything about it. Audience laughs. GR laughs. But there are a lot of therapists who work and who have been great help. And there is a complete set of, complete set of buddhist psychology and buddhist psychotherapy and both are available. It is the, only matter of identifying it, and Tarab Rinpoche here, in Denmark and they try to fix up in the buddhist mind, ahem, functionings, and it is a related things, you put them as, psychology and psychotherapy as you know.

14:57.0

And the Tarab Rinpoche is not only the person. There is more well known person like Richard Kornfield, Joseph Goldstein, Tsultrim Allione and all these people with the psychology background, oh there one more, guy called Surya Dadas,[spelling?] contemporary of Ram Dass. Surya Dadas and all this and they tried to use the buddhist mind and mental functioning. Things, and combined with, even in our Jewel Heart we have Aura Glaser, she does that. And there is other people. Quite a number of them and do this. And this is definitely very strong connection and a linkage and a working and been helpful, with the buddhist mind and mental functionings, mind and mental faculties functionings, and using the terminology and idea

of psychology and psychotherapies been very helpful.

16:47.1

GR: Next is you Sir,

Audience: Is mediation the only way to achieve those efforts or can lifestyle, the way you stand in life be also a way to achieve those efforts?

GR: Where does the word meditation come from? Anybody has any idea?

Audience: Being in your center?

GR: Ja I mean that I understand but where is it coming from? Is latin the ground? Or is it from greek? Or is it enlightened and what is it, meda, is Sanskrit the ground? Meda, meta, meta.

Translator: The word mediation has a latin background and the first part as far as I know maybe refers to center, medius, tia, it could be, I don’t know, I think it comes from the verb ‘stare’ to stand, to be. Stand in the middle, I think its that.

GR: Stand in the middle, In the Sanskrit also too. Mana Mandala., all of them also functioned as a principle in the center.

18:58.4.

So if you are looking that way, the meaning of the word of meditation and it its background and I’m not sure whether I’m right or wrong, but what we got, the consensus here, is like a center, and which means focus, balance point. And balancing point in the middle. If you look from that angle, ja, mediation is the only way to get out. But if you look, oh I’m sorry. Translator translates. But in the Tibetan original, the word for mediation is GOM which means really a concentrate, and hold almost. And which really does not give you that center point of balancing. And but ahem, if you look meditation as one which we mediation instead of thought and how to sit and sort of focus and all this type of thing, I don’t think that is the only way at all. But what you really need is analyzing understanding acknowledging and a changing. And thats what you got to do. And without which we can not.

21:36.0

So, so, so I will not say mediation is the only way in which you will understand as meditation today. Not I think, you got to think. You got to analyze and you got to make corrections. And thats the only way. Whether you do it buddhist way or christian way or muslim way or hindu way or your own way, I think it’s not big important. But important is changing, correcting. Now I got to stop. We talk later. We got a day and a half still. 2 o’clock.

23:16.5

Rimpoche is wondering if the people in the back are ok. In the back back row. The last row?

You people are ok? Ok? Lady over are you comfortable , here with the glasses? Are you ok? ok. If you are ok fine, otherwise you don’t have to have this passage. Ok, before we start, Hans Glass, somehow it is stuck on my head. Klaus raised hand said we got to start.

Audience: I am wondering if you can say that the experience, the trip related experiences are similar to to experiencing higher mediative states.

GR: I don’t know really, whether you can say it is the same experience or not. But there are certain people, particularly during when it is pure acid and before we get it now, its all a mixture,

thats what I was told anyway.

25 :16.3

So during the pure acid there are a number of people being benefited too, a number of people

have gone down doing too. A number of people been benefited. And so I do not know if the experience they get is the same as mediative experience or not, A.

B. Another point, the meditative experience is an experience you gain by working. And the chemical experience is a chemical experience and it lasts as long as the chemical effect is there. It’s going to give a positive effect or negative effect and I don’t think we have control. At least those days. Whatever negative or positive effect you get it remains with you as long as chemical effect is there. The meditative effect is different because it is somehow by hard working by putting your mental, physical, psycho energy combined together and so it is ah, something developed within your own psychic system. So therefore it comes and goes but I don’t think its effect is like that of a chemical effect. Because where and how it comes from itself.

27:43.4

But I don’t want to sit here and act like a drug counselor, because I really don’t know anything about it. And another thing I was brought up this morning, when I’m talking with the experience with the psychology, and ahh, the child molesting, and all this, and very dear friend here brought up a point which is very important point, which is absolutely I did not overlook but I did not pay attention and it is absolutely true to people who have been molested during childhood when you are working with counselors and psychologists and it is very difficult to bring to the point of remembering. It is always absolutely difficult and I am totally aware of that. But when I was saying this morning the bearded one, I am not referring to those, I am not saying that people are wrong, but sometimes the patient goes through the counselor is extremely difficult to express. Particularly woman. The woman has a tremendous problem of expressing the difficulties.

29:30.2.

As I understand it, like a kid, like in rape cases, like 60% of the people will go free. Because they will never come out in the open to say, they don’t want, its too much for them to take it and to be able to come out and say and that much is great difficult and is no doubt. I’m not saying what they said was is wrong. Thats definitely very hard time and hardship. At the same time, the counselor, whoever it is, got to be very careful too. That is what my main point is, you just can’t make a blanket perception and point it out the finger to some father who might not have done anything. Also true and it’s a good point. And it is very difficult to a woman to come out to the point of be able to bring that level, it is also very very hard and the one who does that, has to be really encouraged.

32.06.0

I’m going to bring [the rape ?]to you? Ah, this is not the first time I did this ok? This is second time. And maybe my Tibetan background or monastic ahhhhhh background, whatever it is, when I go on this I always see the counselors frown and forget the patients difficulties they face. This is not always but this is my 2nd time and it happens you know. Reminded just like you did, and Aura reminded me in America once. So this is 2nd time. Laughs. I’m really sure. In the monasteries it’s only males . Its’ not that males are free of that problem either. And that is a problem even men have little courage to say, I don’t know, maybe. Maybe not. laughs.Maybe not. Robert is shaking his head. You are right. Thats true. That’s true. It is certain general society a problem, you can’t be open, you are embarrassed, you feel shy, you are intimidated and all this and general societies problem. So now I would like to move from this, from the point we are talking about, psychological point and drug point to a buddhist oriented point. I really don’t have to move, but link it up. And the way and how, again, we are on the 1st Noble Truth. So in this society today whatever we are experiencing, ahm. Whatever we are acknowledging is this type of little problems we are acknowledging, but we are not really acknowledging the total suffering at all.

35:12.2

Ah basically in the buddhism, if you look very carefully, they give you even birth as a suffering and difficulty. And I’m sure there is a lot of pain when you are born. But I don’t remember a thing. I don’t know whether you people remember a lot. It’s good to remember but then nothing?But they cry all the time. I don’t know it's the sign or expression of a pain. Crying. Or an expression of a joy? I don’t know. We cry both ways anyways. Whether the child had a pain, whether you remember or not, the mother had tremendous problem. We all know that! GR laughs. But 36:30.6…?.. is a joy too so somehow it balances out, I believe. Since I’ve never been a mother so I don’t know. So I believe it balances out. Somehow. So even the sufferings of pain is also has a joy nature in that. Then the 2nd point what Buddha clearly pointed out is the aging problem. Is again really same thing as the mothers pain

37:21.2

[..?..] by the joy of having a child as similarly the aging has a tremendous problem and pain no doubt but at the same time, the joyness of experience of a life. And source of experience, source of information and dignity of a life and all of them there too. And there is a great teacher called

[38:32.2 Khundan Jandan Yang] , 17th hundreds, and the Khudan Jandan Jang wrote a very interesting, very very interesting poetry ah, it is a dialogue between the a youthful young and very extremely old person. I’m not sure how much I’m going to remember. But the few of them I will share with you. The youth goes on town, how how how how, how horrible looking who you are? What you are? Where you come from, what you want. And ah, the elder one says, only a few years ago I was much more handsome then you are, I had much more athletic power then you do, you there, you do now, if I have to run I can catch horse, running horse

40:10.5

I feel that I can catch the flying bird too, if I run I run faster than a horse, thats the idea. Recites in tibetan, ok? But I had that. And had tremendous experience in life. So you don’t even know by now, you don’t even know what it is . And thats what I am. I got a grey hair, I did not paint it, it is as If I received the invitation of the lord of Dead. One after the other. And one of them. When I speak my sound is not as great. I’m not trying to say a strange secret mantra. But I’ve spoke so much my tongue is tired. Rimpoche laughs. …

42:00.1

[ ???] and then I going to remember much but the bottom line comes too, bottom line comes through, bottom line comes through. Then finally the Youth has been convinced by the older person that the older person has a tremendous experience and had a dignity in life, everything what you talk about today the person had already and ah, so, finally, the Youth agreed with him and says, can I have a [42:40.3 maped? ] so I really don’t become like you? Not like you. And the older one says, Yes, it is easy. Theres so many people die. And very few people will die old and with dignity. GR laughs. It is a funny. That you won’t have a long life, and you want have success but you don’t want to become old. Thats funny.

43:40.1 RECORDING ISSUE. TAPE GOING VERY FAST.

46:02.1

You gonna have arthritis. Are you going to have any sort of those aging problems, you are going to get it. Is is just simply because or body is such a chemical something elementary way, so it has its limitations. And even though, the limitations, all of a sudden they come on at night and there will be no severe suffering than that. I’m saying this because traditional teachers will tell you that. But the good thing with the age and suffering is it comes gradually. So somehow you adjust to that. But the society also needs to adjust as you self adjust. Right or wrong? Definitely, because that is something very important and people have to pay attention. And we are very good to have the compassion to ah, to sort of, to somebody who are ill or wounded or something like that, we are very good at it. But we might not that be that much alert or aware of peoples suffering like aging. Or physical limitations. Physical limitations is, people may not be so much aware of as of somebody wounded or some body sick. So it is absolutely important to pay attention, we all will go through with that if you are lucky. The elder person says, everybody will die, very few will die of the old age. Repeats as translator did not get it: I said The elder person say, everybody will die but very few will die with age and dignity. So, briefly about that much, the aging part of it. And I’m sure you do have a lot of questions on this but now next comes the dying part of it. Basically one thing is very good in the west, you know what I noticed with the people, there is kindness within. Everybody has it.

50:03.3

And there is really kindness with everybody. Because basically in principle, you will refuse to accept certain injustice. Which is somehow very much in the East. Few years ago, a very few years ago and I have a friend, who is a young person, about 17 or 18, now he is a full fledged lawyer

named Matthew, he came here in Holland and then went to Singapore, remember? In Singapore the place where I was staying there’s a Chinese businessman house, and they have a domestic servant. Coming from the Philippines of something. I think it's the the Philippines. And the treatment given by the family to the domestic, which if you compare with the others, they are really truly treating her so well. But for Matt it is not right. Because they are not treated, they are not eating equally, they are not sitting together, they are not held right here [52:10.0 all together??] So by third week I have to keep Matthew quiet, because over here he’s fighting. GR laughs. So I mean, as I said, it’s because in the West, people have the openness of to be able to accept, and when it’s not there unable to accept. You have that attitude. A good quality in the West you have, the Westerners have.

53.11.0

So thats why there is an openness there. Thats why I say its good in the West. In the East it’s slightly different because they will accept this inequality, as part of structure or whatever you call it. Nothing strange, nothing new, nothing wrong, that sort of attitude. So why. Why. We can not dismiss it is Society, we can not dismiss and saying thats how they do it. We might not be able to do anything but we must understand why. I think it is because of the capacity of the individual. Capacity to be able to accept. And in certain societies the capacity is limited. And that is true to all of our problems. And some have the capacity to accept. I don’t mean accept suffering as it is. But spacious enough to be able to see it, to be able to discriminate, to be able to correct and some don’t.

55:39.1

And then you have that is one thing. Then another thing is, I like to color the ground as much

could, so then another point is again, is general suffering, which is death. And the death is something we definitely can not avoid it. Yes I’m aware of the medical development, and the development of genetic genes, and they somehow they can extend it and they can put the body frozen and bring it back. And 200 years later whatever it is. And all of them there. And I’m not going to say it may not work and I’m going to say it will work. And I have reasons, don’t let me talk about the reasons. But the point is, for all practical purposes, we will all die.

57:11.3

So then what happens? What is death? How individual die? Or why? How you feel? These are the questions we have to see it. Ok, so now, that death is unavoidable. Simple reason no matter who ever you might be, highly spiritually developed persons like Buddha, and all of them is gone today. All military power, all gone. Look at the European history, all the Napoleones and Juliuses, and all this, they are all gone. And look at the Chinese Emperors, this Dynasty, that Dynasty, Ding?Ming, Ching, all of them are gone. So, everybody is gone really. And how can you and I live long? It’s not possible.,it’s true. Right? If we don’t think, I mean really there’s no problem except for, ja we die, ja, we do, ja. But the point is, can’t I any minute? Not only can’t I any minute but we are too running, running towards dying.

The 7th Dalai Lamas I think it says: [59:37.4 Gyen yen kybi….

The moment you are born you don’t have to right to live a minute. You’ve been running towards death.

1:00:09.8

Soooo, it is an unavoidable thing, so then what happens, how do we handle that? If you die, if I’m dying, let’s say, me, it’s myself, not myself as here, each and everyone of us. When I die how do I handle. And when others die how do I handle? And that is another deep question. And I think, I do not know whether tibetan buddhism contributes to that or not [1:00:59.5 [?] A thought much more than the normal western thought.]??

Because the knowledge of the western knowledge and when you stop breathing. Eastern religions will go through beyond that. Not only Eastern, I think all religions go beyond that. So the spiritual part is have a little more thinking to say than a mere scientific thing. But on the other hand, the medical doctor from Harvard, teaching in Yale and Stanford and everything, I forgot his name, Noonoo something, (Dr. Sherwin B. Nuland) but anyway, he wrote a book called ‘How We Die’. He told me “I have yet to shake hands with somebody who comes back from bardo. Once I do that then I know how to explain until then we have no explanation on it”. He neutrally told me we have a lot of information on this. And he said “but we don’t have scientific information on that”.

1:03:32.3

And scientific means no matter who the person is experimenting, wherever the place is, one works with one and should work with the other or a hundred different people. This one doesn’t,

And thats why they said we have those informations, they are not wrong, but they are not scientific. So there is no scientific information. But there is a lot of religions, people talk about it, and a lot of people who are returned from the near death experience. And what do you call it return from death in Tibetan, they are like in 17 different 1:04:27.0 [?? ?] So whatever it may be

We would like to know exactly what happens if I die. What do I do if I see the other die, what can I do? So, what this tells me if I die, what kind of mind will disturb me? William Burroughs called me from Kansas to Anne Arbor and asked me if root addictions will hold me

back. I took it literally as his addiction, he smokes all the time, not smoker, he smoked pot all the time, William Burroughs, very famous poet right? Translator asking : He smoked what?

GR: It is normal language, smoke pot, smoke weed, you know, smoke grass which means hashish right?

1:06:34.8

I can see you are not educated! Audience laughs! Good thing or bad thing I don’t know. So I told him, I told him the pot shall not disturb you, however the addition to anger, addiction to jealous and all this will definitely disturb you. So the Burroughs is quiet, the telephone went silent for a while, then Allen Ginsburg told me this time, just 3 days ago in New York, he says: “The Burroughs get very angry, that’s why, that’s the reason he went so silent” . I did not know. ‘Burroughs gets very irritated” he said. So that’s that. And there are certain emotions, like anger, attachment and a hatred. This type of emotions, addictions to those emotions, will definitely make the peoples life miserable when they die.

1:08:36.0

And generally, I also noticed and the people who have been nice and kind and a good person in life will always have a better way of going. But person who’s having a, doing something wrong has always, will have difficulties at the time of death. One example. I was in Delhi couple of years ago, maybe 10 years ago, a friend of mine who is the head Lama of Ladakh and presently he is Indias ambassador to Mongolia, called Bakula Rimpoche. And he was a member of Parliament at that time in Indian government. And one Tibetan Bali mixed guy who is his benefiter, I forgot this guys name now, quite a well known guy, anyway, he was dying in Delhi in hospital and he is having a terrible nightmare. In the Tibetan tradition you bring the image or a picture of a Buddha or a picture of a Guru or a picture of a Deity or [1:11:04.6????l]like that. And we bring them, we bring them to the dying person, near the dying person. And the reason why we do this, we try to engage the focus of the dying persons to one of those levels.

1:11:37.1

So that. So that, so that the person dies well focusing on the Buddha or person dies well thinking about the Guru, person dies well thinking of the Yidam, that’s the reason why we try to interlink the parts. And this fellow could never get, could never bring the buddha image in his bedroom or the hospital room. Through here the hallucinations saying that the Buddha jumping off the altar and all the Buddhas coming out of the walls and smashing him. Crushing him. And the person here, well, well he was a big smuggler. And big smuggler in Nepal. He smuggled all different images out of temples. I was even told he sold an image of a big temple in Nepal to a British collector, even though, while the image is in the temple. And the way they do it, they take the collectors there and showed it to them, and then they make a deal, take 50% there in advance, they steal it, do something and shipped out and delivered them somewhere outside Nepal. That’s what they do. I was told that is what they do. So this fellow sold one image of one temple to a British collector and he had not yet delivered that. And so in order to deliver that, he tried, he tried, what he did, he invited the Karmapa, the big Lama at that time. Karmapa, he invited Karmapa to Nepal. And he had the big show going with the Karmapa, huge, thousands of them roam around and do all sorts of things. Going to a temple to a temple taking the Karmapa around. Luckily he did not steal the image before when Karmapa was there, really, lucky there. He drove the Karmapa at the airport and took the same car and went to the village and tired to take the image off.

1:15:23.4

And with all sorts to people went there and tried to take it off. And they could not take it off.

It was grounded so much they could not take it out! And they dig and dig and everything could not come out finally they cut it with electrical saw. And it took a long time and by that time somehow the temple keeper got free and he started running down. [1:16:15.6 laughs / can not understand. Got not scared]. So they arrested him and he was put in the nepalese jail. [1:16:29.1`…………………………………………………..]so that may be how he got in contact with Rimpoche Bakula maybe you know. Trying to get him out of nepalese jail. So whatever it is. So anyway that is the result of that - he was dying and he seeing all these images jumping on him. So while he was dying then I got a letter form Rimpoche Bakula in Delhi with 50 rupees in it. And it saying this is what’s happening with this man and please pray for him. I jokingly replied back to Rimpoche Bakula saying that the 50 rupees is not a heavy weight enough to pull him out. GR laughs.

1:17:55.1

So anyway, thats what happened. And there are other people I’ve seen, dying with the hearing music. When people die there is confusion, some hallucinations too, all the time. Even though people die very peacefully, there are some, they hearing music or chanting or the tantric college monks. At the same time, there is someone saying where is his wife, we have to catch a plane, she’s not ready, we are going to be late, we are going to miss the plane, you know, things like thats going on. So whatever it may be, whatever you do during the life time, it has tremendous effect how of your mind is going to be set up at that moment. And what we have to do to the dying person is to provide spacious. A space to the people to accept. Of course dying person freak out quite often.

1:20:00.0

But people who are near there should be able to take that. It is alright for him to freak out, for him or her to freak out. And we get freaked out. When we loose our job we get freak out. When we loose our house we get freaked out. And when loose a companion we freak out, not only freak out but we remain with the long face for a long time. Did you hear me? Long face, long time. But then this poor dying person is loosing everything. I’m loosing a job, loosing his companion. Loosing his whole bank balance, loosing everything. Even the body. So a little bit freak out is ok. So provide the space. Be able to accept. Its like if you can, like the sky type of space, you can good / bad and everything can come out and be acceptable.

We used to say, even earlier teachers used to say in the monastery, this great monasteries like Drepung, or Serra or this big monastery where 10,000 monks are there are some people doing funny things and they used to say these great monasteries are like the ocean. There are a lot of good things and also funny things and bad things, and all of them there. But it is the quality of the monastery to accept the them. And whether the monastery accept everything or not,

but I think we have to provide a space to be able to accept all this for the dying people.

1:23:26.1

Then of course you have to assure them, its going to be ok.

Rimpoche laughs

END OF TAPE

Ha!