Archive Result

Soundfile 20000830GRSROTF08

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location SR

Topic Odyssey to Freedom

Transcriber Helen Breault

Date March 11, 2021

(Before I take the questions, who is it tonight—Tony or Rochelle? Before I do that I’d like to give the floor to Chris for a minute, Chris McCall. (Directions to retreat and about cleaning, etc.)

(1:50:8 Rimpoche begins)

Okay, Rocky.

Question (Rocky): If all consciousness is dependently arising, how can Buddha’s consciousness be permanent or unchanging?

Rimpoche: Ah, that’s a very interesting question. But who said Buddha’s consciousness is permanent? Where did you see it? Who told you? I’m not going to say, “How dare you said that!” [laughter]. So how do we know Buddha’s consciousness is permanent? I don’t think we know about that. When you don’t know it is permanent it must be impermanent. When it’s impermanent then it’s changeable. When it’s changeable, it’s not from positive to negative but it’s changeable from minute to minute. [Rimpoche laughs] Buddha changes his mind every minute. That’s a joke. (To audience: So would like to identify who this person or is it sort of a group who sees there, lives red tide and zip it over [3:26] and over-protected. [laughter] If the individual would like to identify, then I think then that’s the case. But if you don’t want to identify then you don’t have to.)

[3:43]

Audience (Tony): Also on the subject of consciousness I have several short questions. Related to that, where did consciousness come from originally since it can’t come from matter? Does a sperm have consciousness? And how does consciousness relate to emptiness? In other words, for example, the question was, “If nothing has inherent existence, what is it that goes on from life to life? Why does, if it’s not inherently existent, how does karma attach to it? And is this some sort of primordial mind?”

So that’s a whole laundry list.

Rimpoche: You know this is the good old question. Buddha was asked is there end of the world or something? Is there end, beginning end, and ending end? Beginning end really means beginning. [laughs] [5:23 Tibetan] So Buddha was asked whether there’s a beginning or end. You know what Buddha did? Silent. When I first came to India, the Delhi University Buddhist department professors were giving lectures. And it was on this topic. Buddha was asked, “Is there a beginning or end, is there beginning or end?” And they said, the answer that Buddha gave was silent. The Delhi professors always said, “Silent” (whispering). That’s what it is. That’s my answer. Oh, I’m joking! [laughs]

[6:62]

I was just joking that. Yes, non-consciousness is not supposed to become consciousness. Yet there is no new consciousness. That’s why we say limitlessness of the beginning or something. No one really knows except Buddha in the Buddhist point of view. No new consciousness and therefore we’re there right from the beginning, limitless beginning. We don’t know when the beginning is.

[8:07]

Okay. Sperm does have a consciousness? I don’t know. Probably not. Otherwise there should be a baby without mother. That doesn’t work. So that shows the sperm doesn’t have consciousness. If sperm does have consciousness they don’t depend to the egg. That shows it doesn’t have. Yeah, it is dependent arise. Two components of a piece. Without the other, one doesn’t work. That shows the sperm doesn’t have consciousness. The egg doesn’t have consciousness. That’s why we don’t have gay babies. [laughter] I’m sorry. [laughs]

What was the other question?

9:59

Audience: It was relating consciousness, trying to put it in the perspective with emptiness. And also the idea…The question basically says if everything is inherently empty, what is it that carries on from life to life?

Rimpoche: I don’t know whether everything’s inherently empty. I don’t know why the translators choose to call it “no inherent existence.” But what does the word “inherent” really mean? It’s nothing coming from… What does the word “inherent” mean really?

Audience: Within itself, coming from itself. Independent.

Rimpoche: In other words, “selfless” they try to say “inherent”? No.

Audience: (Inaudible)

Rimpoche: Jonathan’s looking (in dictionary) I don’t know why they choose to use the word “inherent existence.” Self?

Jonathan: Do you want me to read the definition?

Rimpoche: That’s better. We have a huge dictionary here.

Jonathan: “Existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality or attribute.”

Rimpoche: Ah… “A permanent and inseparable quality or attribute.” I see… And those circumstances, whoever selected that word, made a good choice, very good choice.

So inherent existence means independent and…Jonathan?

Jonathan: “Existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality or attribute.” They give the example of someone who has inherent distrust of strangers, which means it’s within them and you can’t change it.

Rimpoche: Can you read it again?

Jonathan: “Existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality or attribute.”

Rimpoche: So there is nothing permanent, number one. And number two, there is nothing inseparable.

[13:50]

Whether it’s a quality or whatever it may be. That’s why there’s no inherent existence. It really gives you the meaning quite clearly, if I know the language. It gives you the meaning quite clearly. So the consciousness is.. Consciousness does not have inherent existence because number one, it’s not permanent. It’s impermanent. Number two, it’s separable, its part and parcels are there and always one or two combine together and its functioning together. And that’s why separability is always there. Always there’s a separability there. So therefore it is, there’s nothing inherently existing, that’s true. Then what happens?

Audience (Tony): The question is, given that, how can karma stick to… What is the thing that goes on from life to life? And how can karma stick to it?

Rimpoche: What goes from life to life is what we call consciousness or the being or the person. But being and person is not permanent. And it is part and parcel joined together. And it is separable. Right? So that’s what goes life to life. A fragile piece joined…looks like a sort of broken something joined by lots of crazy glues together and then travels. Does that answer the question or no? I can go and talk for a long time on this. But if it’s not permanent, and if it’s impermanent, how does it work? Like Trungpa Rimpoche used the word “continuation of discontinuity.” I think that’s quite a good choice for this. It is something continuing but discontinuity. Something continuing but it is discontinuity. It’s like we were talking this morning: the little torch that gives you tik—tik—tik that you gives you arc. But then you know, there will come different pieces, depends on when they use it. But there’s a continuing coming in. So it’s almost like that: continuation of discontinuity. Very vivid example. We see those people working tik-tik-tik. It’s continuing but this is the continuity.

Audience (Tony): Is this the primordial mind, then, that you’re describing?

Rimpoche: I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know. I don’t think so. Primordial mind is something different. It’s not primordial, it’s modified already. And it has already a lot of effects there already. So it’s modified not…

(John’s laughing, what happened? It is sort of contagious when you cough…(Audience member is coughing). You need some water…etc. Rimpoche coughs, then laughs).

[20:35 teaching resumes]

Audience: I was saying as long as we’re talking here we should talk about the indestructible drop and then let’s get it all out on the table.

Rimpoche: There are two types of indestructible drops: indestructible ’til you die or indestructible ’til you become enlightened. And indestructible ’til you get enlightened is not our business right now. But indestructible ’til you die is actually the genes that we get from the parents or the egg and sperm we get, join them together and become a drop. You know we used to have a little seed, it is red in body and black on top. There’s sort of a little seed there, in very bright red and black.

Audience: (Inaudible)

Rimpoche: I thought she was going to get the seed. I don’t think so, I don’t think they have seed here. Maybe somebody has it in mandala offering, if they have. I mean, one side is black and one side is red but it’s one piece. Likewise, the indestructible drop is half is from the sperm side and half is from the egg side. They join together and provide a base for the consciousness to remain in there. Sort of provides shell, like the egg shell. Then you have the egg yolk and then you have the white part of the egg. And it’s been sort of the yolk is shelled with the white thing and then you have the shell outside. It’s almost like that. The sperm and egg mix together and become sort of some kind of egg-type of shell which was consciousness’s base been given for… It’s called indestructible because it will not separate until you die. When they separate, you’ll die for sure. The individual dies when it’s separated. That’s why it’s called indestructible. Indestructible ’til you die. And indestructible ’til you get enlightened. The other one, I don’t want to talk about it. And this one is that. (Wait a minute, I don’t want to get out of order, so…)

Is that the primordial mind? I don’t think so. When we refer to the primordial mind we’re referring to something else, something else. Pure nature of the consciousness. Now this is a very tricky point. If you really think very carefully. We talk about primordial mind and pure nature and this and that, mind is pure, everything’s pure, wonderful, blah blah blah. And all of those, I mean there’s a whole thing there. Even during the Buddha’s period, Buddha’s life time and even thereafter, different thoughts of schools existed. And Buddha neither denied nor sort of gave priority of one over the other. It becomes a philosophical matter. But, on the other hand, there’s no beginning of consciousness. So what are we referring to? A really pre… These are the very serious matters to think. Though we teach and even meditate encountering primordial mind and this and that.

[25:56]

This is difficult, isn’t it? And then I think there’s two different things too. The two different things are the nature of the consciousness that’s not enlightened and the nature of the consciousness that’s been enlightened. So I think there’s two different levels and two completely different systems here. Not only a system, what’s really happening. When you say, “Is this primordial mind?” you’re talking about the consciousness itself, right.

Tony: The consciousness that goes from life to life.

Rimpoche: Consciousness that goes from life to life is continuation of consciousness which is probably not the primordial mind at all. The moment when you talk about the primordial…You know when you’re doing the Mahamudra or some of those things, then nobody will question what is primordial mind. Try to find out something. We introduce something. There’s something you can find too that you can also find. But what you’re going to find— is it really a “pre”? What does “mordial” mean?

Audience: It’s not “pre” p-r-e-. It’s “pri”-mordial. It means before—originally.

Rimpoche: Sounds much better.

[27:46]

So “primordial” means pureness of it.

Audience: Doesn’t really mean that. It means original.

Rimpoche: Original.

Jonathan: Want me to read? Primordial: “Constituting a beginning. Giving origin to something derived or developed. Original. Elementary. Pertaining to or existing at the very beginning such as ‘primordial matter.’”

Rimpoche: Beginning, at the beginning. When the Buddha says there’s no beginning.

Audience: But the thing is, with primordial soup, for example, the constituent elements that were originally there are still there and we are still it. So it’s not really positing a beginning in the way of a beginning before which there was nothing.

[Audience inaudible]

Jonathan: It says “Giving origin to something derived or developed. Original. Elementary. First formed.”

Rimpoche: No, there is no such a thing as called “Buddhist English.” We have to remember that very carefully. [laughter] I mean it’s true. There’s no, don’t you think so, huh? English is English. There’s no such thing as called “Buddhist English.”

Tony: But I assume the term “primordial mind” is a translation of a Tibetan term which is a Buddhist concept.

I’m not sure if it’s alayana, or vishnana or whatever it is. That’s I think what the people are referring to rather than the English term.

Rimpoche: The word in Tibetan is nyugsen or lahngyi or rangshi. Shiva or rigpa or all this variety of language we use. [30:28 Tibetan] The easiest way, lesser confusion, is the nuksten. [30:38] But as long as you don’t make a mistake with the bamboo. Bamboo is nyungma too. [laughs] So if you don’t make a mistake, then it’s okay. You know, rigpa can make mistake. Rigpa is idea, thoughts and everything is rigpa too. To does the shepa. The nyugsem, nyungmesem is the right word if you don’t make a mistake with bamboo.

[31:14]

Perhaps it’s chosen language that way because the bamboo is straight and has this joint. But it’s very straight. Not like any other tree or branch that goes this way or that way crooked. It’s straight. Sort of a natural straight mind. That’s what actually comes in: natural straight mind. And then somebody might have chosen to call it “primordial mind.” So natural straight mind. Sure, it is. But continuation of traveling from past to future life, yeah there’s that. I think I guess we have to say, “Is this a primordial mind that’s traveling?” Yes. Do we recognize this as a primordial mind when you recognize this mind? Probably no. I think we may have to separate that here. I think that’s where the confusion are maybe getting it. Because I’m easy to say either yes or no. Probably we need to separate that. When you recognize this mind, do you consider encounter, recognizing with the primordial mind? No. Is this a primordial mind that is traveling? Yes. Is that the mind that is primordial mind? No. I think there’s a different separation. Once you make that separation… It’s slightly confusing, a little complicated. A little bit of a philosophical thing involved here. But I think that’s what it is.

[33:10]

So if the question is, “Is this a primordial mind?” Yes.

Jonathan: Could you say what travels in an aspect of primordial mind but not the whole of primordial mind?

Rimpoche: But the whole of primordial mind is in here. But everything, whatever’s in here is not necessarily primordial mind. I think that’s what’s happening. I think that’s sort of good enough.

(Which group is that? At least I get answer from group. It started with Kathleen—not to reveal the source of the question.)

(Audience: Group Ten.)

Rimpoche: Interesting question. So wherever it comes from, do they need more clarification on this or are you more confused?

(Yeah, people who are in the group, they can all say if they don’t want to say individually. Or say, “Yeah! No!”)

Audience: [laughter]

[35:04]

Tony: So, since that was a nice juicy one I now have a controversial one. The question is: some people…

(Audience discussion about citronella smell making people sick).

Rimpoche: Well, whoever the guilty person with the citronella. [laughter] Now I can smell it a little bit. What does that come from? Could be out of air-conditioner.

Audience mayhem continues until…)

[37:14]

Rochelle: Should I continue, Rimpoche? If I die suddenly, what can I do ahead of time to make sure that I don’t fall into a lower realm? And if I do fall into a lower realm, what happens to the karma that I dedicated to enlightenment?

Rimpoche: Well, number one, whoever that person might be. [It’s really getting smell now…Audience discussing it until…]

[41:52]

Audience: Is primordial mind universal mind or is enlightened mind?

Rimpoche: Primordial mind should be awakened mind. But whether it is enlightened mind or I’m not even sure whether it’s even universal mind. I’m not even sure.

Audience: [Inaudible]

Rimpoche: I have no idea. That’s really true. I really have no idea. It’s honest. I’m not making joke.

Audience: …to be sure I don’t fall into a lower realm. If I do fall into a lower realm what happens to the karma that I dedicated?

Rimpoche: Well, number one, hopefully you don’t die suddenly. Number two, certainly you don’t want to fall in lower realms. It’s in your hand right now. Whoever’s asking that question, it’s in your hand right now. So please don’t fall in lower realms. And we worry about what happens to the karma if you do fall in lower realms. Actually, nothing happens to the karma. It remains sort of frozen for a while.

[43:29]

(Audience: inaudible

Rimpoche: Congratulations. At least you came out of the closet—closet which is locked and sealed by the facilitator for Group Number Two.)

Audience: The reason I asked that question was because I heard you say many times that the chances are slim-to-none that we’re going to come back as humans. So, if we spend all this time dedicating our merit and practicing and practicing and practicing and don’t reach enlightenment in this lifetime, as you said the chances are slim-to-none that we’re going to come back as humans. So what happens then?

Rimpoche: I think it’s serious. I mean very, very serious. Yes, when you look in our own deeds the chances of returning back as human beings are a little slim, yes. But if you really look, work hard and then do it, then it’s not that difficult and it’s not impossible. It may work.

(Maybe we have to stop. It’s just fifteen minutes ahead, that’s all. Look at John, he’s cute.

Audience discussion…

I’d also like to know when you’re going to do those things you’re going to do.)

[46:35]

Rimpoche: That’s the point. The chances are we won’t go to a lower realm. We have a very good chance. Sort of not going to lower realm, particularly when you have this very strong interest and efforts. We’re probably not going to go into the lower realms. But the possibility is never ruled out. And when you do the teachings, I have to do it in such a way and it hits the people. It has to hit the people. Draw the attention. So I’m glad it’s drawn your attention, saying that chances are slim of coming back as a human being. It caught you! That’s a good thing. When it’s slim you want to make it within that slimness. In that category, you wanted to make it in that. You know, that’s the whole purpose of those sort of strong statements hitting. It’s for that purpose. But as a practitioner as we are, as opportunity what we have, as things that we do, the chances of coming back as a human being is much more better than anything else. In reality, one may not have to worry too much about it. But, other other hand, there’s a possibility too.

[48:00]

What happens to the positive karma? It’s not wasted. It is there. It’s waiting for the conditions to touch. The moment the conditions arise it will work. Let’s say if some of us, someone’s born as some kind of skunk or something. The karmic condition is such that you get somehow a skunk. But the skunk will not last very long. When the karmic condition’s right probably some car will hit the skunk. And the skunk will be reborn not as a skunk but as a human being. That’s possible. That’s what we really look into karmic. Therefore, everything, you know, whenever you get hurt or hit or something, when some weak being’s been killed, it’s not bad. The person, the individual, is a killer. It hurts the killer. But also the consequences of that might not necessarily be that bad because that can probably have a change of connecting with a better condition and taking rebirth as human beings or something.

Okay, next.

Audience (Rochelle): Today you mentioned we cannot add to our life. If it’s fixed, how does it get lost into a specific amount? And then why do we do longevity practices such as White Tara? Are we purifying for a fixed amount of life or do we actually extend our time?

Rimpoche: I don’t believe we extend our time. But we do have a fixed time but there’s no guarantee the fixed time is going to get it. So the idea of fixed time’s not necessarily, I mean it’s sort of allotted. Allotted is again the wrong word. Allotment means somebody else allots you. But it’s sort of certain years we may have to be able to live. But you may not be able to live it fully. It may be interrupted at the age of thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy. Even though you have a capacity, capability and a thing to go, say up to one hundred or ninety or ninety-five or something but it may be interrupted in any level. But that is the idea. The longevity practice removes those obstacles. And that’s why it’s not added but making sure it’s fully used. I’m making it brief because of the smell and timing.

Audience (Rochelle): You said today that certain planets have beings which have fixed lifetimes unlike ours. What information do you have about other planets in our universe? Is it possible that any such beings could achieve enlightenment?

Rimpoche: Yes. According to Buddhism, if you look at it, at least they talk about four plus four planets. I don’t know whether that includes America or not. I mean it does include America but whether America goes in the southern continent or it goes to the northern continent I’m not sure. But northern continent is supposed to have a fixed lifetime of one thousand years. And before your time when you die some announcement comes in the sky and says, “Hey, your time to go.” When I first saw the hospitals in the west I thought, “Wow. That’s it!” Here you go. [laughs] So that’s that.

Audience [Tony]: There’s a question about incarnate lamas. Some people have the label of incarnate and the question really is what does that mean? Are they enlightened beings? And is it possible for them to fall back? In other words, if they make a big mistake, these incarnate lamas during their life, can they stop being an incarnate lama and become lower realm beings, things like that?

[53:00]

Rimpoche: In reality everyone’s been incarnated. There’s no one who’s not been incarnated. Nagarjuna said [53:10 Tibetan]. One should try to have more reincarnation and that’s the best achievement. That’s what Nagarjuna says. However, the incarnate lamas of Tibet is the system only available in Tibet. I don’t know, but that is supposed to be… It is sort of begin to recognize somebody who had come there and did something great. They begin recognize that person in different form. But everybody’s incarnate of somebody. But only the very helpful and person who had done great service—and they have been re-recognized as incarnate lama or something. That is only recognition, they have done and so they come that way. But what did they recognize? What is that supposed to be? They’re supposed to be at least arya level—extraordinary beings. [54:55 Tibetan] Meaning, the aryas are free of normal, usual sufferings of death, birth, and illnesses and so and forth. They’re free of that. And what is really happening is, their way of taking rebirth and recircling is done by the power of their dedication.

[55:13]

(Talks to audience. You better off move. I was thinking that for a long time, so…)

[55:27 Tibetan]

So they don’t have the taking rebirth by forceful negative karma or by power of delusion. Instead of that, the power has been shifted to the commitment and they pray. So that was supposed to be, at least supposed to be incarnate lama. Do they ever fall back? If they’re arya they never fall back. If that’s not arya then it’s different. Every recognized incarnate lama is supposed to be really what they’ve been recognized as? Big question. Nobody knows. Is there corruption in the incarnate recognition? Yes, sure. Very much. We have witnessed it the last couple of years: two karmapas, two panchen lamas. So all of those. Two kenzay, two denjum [56:47]. It is questionable, yes. Definitely.

Audience [Rochelle]: When it comes to accomplishing something, how much is free will and effort and how much is karma?

Rimpoche: Both. Hundred percent.

Audience [Rochelle]: If we all have to face the consequences of our own karma, how can a bodhisattva take on our suffering?

Rimpoche: They’re trying. They don’t.

Audience [Rochelle]:

[57:34]

There’s a few very practical [questions]. As a Zen practitioner I was taught not to seek goals or have preferences. Having sixty-four steps to pursue enlightenment seems to contradict this. How can I reconcile this?

Rimpoche: Well that’s very interesting, the first question that you have asked. If you don’t seek any goal, so what do you meditate? What for? The reasons why do you sit? What for? Just for fun. Or what for? I mean, think very carefully. (Talks to audience:You’re allowed to come out of the closet? Go ahead.)

Audience: That was my question. Suzuki Roshi said if you’re sitting to accomplish something you’re sitting for nothing.

Rimpoche: Did he also say if you’re sitting for nothing you’re sitting for something. Perhaps that’s the next step. You’re sitting for nothing you’re sitting for something. I’m sorry, can you bring that tomorrow? I’d like to talk a little bit more here. Tonight seems to be the time and the session of both is pushing us. But it is very important.

Audience [Rochelle]: A practical question: Why do we do the prayers in Tibetan? Some people say they find it difficult to understand what they should be thinking about and what is the purpose of doing them in Tibetan?

Rimpoche: Oh, that is the addiction. My addiction for language. Very simple.

Audience [Rochelle]: How do you talk with someone who’s dying and isn’t convinced that anything does happen after death? How could you skillfully talk to that person?

Rimpoche: If you talk to any dying person, more or less you find that person is not going to think, “I’m going to disappear.” Person is also going to think, “I’m going somewhere.” Most of the dying persons will have intuition at that time that they’re going somewhere. So you can talk from that angle. Move the mind of the individual something into the positive. Even not virtuous positive, at least like a beautiful, open, nice, wonderful space-like. That’s what you can do. And that’s because more or less rarely a dying person, within the next hour or so, and that person’s intuition is quite clearly showing—if it’s conscious and if it’s intelligent enough—they’re thinking they’re going somewhere. They don’t think they’re going to disappear. They think they’re dying but they think they’re moving somewhere. And so they’re looking for something where they’re moving, what’s going to happen. We may call that a fear. We may call that whatever we may call it, human intuition will guide them, push them, somehow they’re moving somewhere. And you can talk to them that where they going is some place nice and wonderful and better. And this and that.

[1:01:49]

And I also emphasize very much we all like Buddha. So for us we don’t mind talking about Buddha. But not for everybody. Somebody may get upset if you try to put the Buddha right in the face of that person who doesn’t even like a Buddha. Or doesn’t know anything about it. They may get irritated. So we have to be very skillful. Even you can’t help it, you should never harm them. If you raise anger or confusion—confusion’s even a little better —but anger, or disliking you may be doing disservice to that person.

Audience [Rochelle]: (inaudible)…Single pointed concentration in the context of the Lam Rim.

Rimpoche: Very good question. Whatever we’ve been talking to meditate and to think, is we’re talking to you from the analytical point-of-view and every point of subject, wherever you’re thinking you’re going to find that result, the point, your conclusion. And on that conclusion you concentrate. Both concentrated meditation and analytical meditation have to go together. If the concentrated meditation’s not there, you’re not going to find the point you’re looking for. I mean somebody may tell you something, but you’re not going to find it. But if you found it, if you do not meditate on that you’re not going to effect you. That meditation is holding the point. It is subject meditation not object meditation. But the subject, the point of what you found, like life is impermanent, —once you’re convinced and then you really focus, even you have to say it or you have pinpoint it— whatever works for you, the life is impermanent. Sort of pinpoint it on that and then sit on that. And when you sit on that, the consequences of sitting on that it will absorb in your personality. I’ve been talking to uplifting the personality. Finding the point is analytical meditation’s job. Once you found the point, sitting on that makes you absorb into the personality and become a part of you. You need both of them. And that’s where the concentrated meditation goes. I think it’s clear but short. Sorry, but it’s clear.

[1:04:43]

Audience [Rochelle]: You said it’s unethical to reject beings from being born as human beings. In this respect is birth control also unethical? And also in conjunction with that, since we’re praying and dedicating for all beings enlightenment and it seems that the animal population is getting smaller, are we praying for animal extinction?

Rimpoche: Birth control might not be something bad at all. And I don’t think it is unethical either. I’m not Catholic anyway so, nor I have Catholic background. I don’t see that as unethical. And also seeing not necessarily rejection of the human birth. And of course it is a little unethical if the laboratories started choosing, selecting, certain point. I think we can see very clearly it’s unlike birth control. It’s with a specific goal, with a specific purpose of selecting a better, you know, sort of thing. It’s slightly different there than just to have birth control.

Unethical part of it is true, but more than that if you become a two-class system of human beings it will be very unethical and very troublesome. And that’s what the more unethical thing I was talking about this morning or yesterday. It was more unethical about that—two class system of human beings. It’s also a rejection, selection it isn’t fair. It is unethical. But birth control is something different. Birth control you’re not rejecting something who’s coming. You simply don’t want to carry anything extra for the time being. So it’s a totally different. And the idea of making it superior beings, it’s simply that you don’t want a baby at this particular moment so you use birth control. I think that’s a big difference. That’s my view.

Yes, we’re praying to empty the animal realm completely. Yes, we are praying to empty the hungry ghost realm. Yes we are praying for emptying the hell realm completely and we want them to be better human beings. They’re better, they want to be human beings. We’re praying for them to become a god rather than remain as animal forever. Yes I am.

Audience [Tony]: There’s two more. One is regarding oral transmission. The question is what is it? What benefit does it have? And how is it different from a teaching or an initiation?

Rimpoche: This is another Tibetan culture. The oral transmission, the sound that you heard is the sound continuing from the person who wrote it. When you have the oral transmission it sort of gives a little more strength to the individual on their meditation. That’s what it’s supposed to be and that is the reason. There is nothing more than that.

Audience [Tony]: Is it possible to experience emptiness at the Sutrayana level and then obtain enlightenment?

Rimpoche: Yes. Answer is yes. Vajrayana has no extra or superior emptiness, no. The emptiness whatever the Vajrayana level you use is the sutrayana emptiness. Not only that. Even the Mahayana doesn’t have different emptiness than that of Theravaden yana. The same old emptiness. [laughter] Good old emptiness in all three yanas together. In Sutrayana, yes, if you’re following Mahayana Sutrayana, yes, you obtain a totally fully enlightened Buddha. If you’re following the Sutrayana only Theravaden level, the result level which is also prescribed in the Theravaden level is the arhat level. That’s it. Anything more?

Audience: Inaudible

Rimpoche: No. After that, they will all become god and then we will empty them too.

[1:10:52]

Audience [inaudible]

Rimpoche: Very good idea. I’ll tell them. Okay.

We started with this out of turn business. Anyway go ahead.

[Carla]: Inaudible. You said that consciousness is impermanent.

Rimpoche: Impermanent, yes.

[Carla]: So when does it end? Or is that another silence answer?

Rimpoche: That’s another silence.

Carla: So it doesn’t end with enlightenment. If you’re enlightened you have consciousness.

Rimpoche: Yes, it doesn’t end.

Carla: And that mind doesn’t end.

Rimpoche: Even our mind doesn’t end.

Carla: How can it be impermanent and not end?

Rimpoche: Because it’s discontinuity. Really true. It’s changing. It’s conditions. Components. Everything changes, that’s why it’s impermanent.

Now I’m going to stop because it’s Karen. [laughter]

Kevin: I’ll try to make this… I don’t know, maybe I’m confused. This is try to be a serious question I guess. What kind of imprints do you get from a skunk. I mean, can you get imprints from an animal? Of course I’ve felt like an animal sometimes. Do you get imprints from a skunk?

Rimpoche: Yeah. The smell. [laughter] The smell is the imprint.

Kevin: I mean if you were a skunk and then you became a human being.

Rimpoche: Then you don’t smell. [laughter]

Kevin: Do you have the imprint still? You carry on the skunk-ness.

Rimpoche: You know how do you find out? We ask Robert to smell it. Every life, every minute, every time, wherever, whatever we do, whatever karma we create we get imprint. Skunk, snake, cockroach.

Kevin: It’s never just the new life.

Rimpoche: No. Never new, never nude. [?1:15:20]

Audience: Rimpoche, I understood you to say the Sutrayana emptiness is the same as the Vajrayana emptiness.

Rimpoche: Yes.

Audience: Bear with me. I’m going to formulate my question as I go here. If emptiness from Sutrayana point-of-view is a blend of vipassana and shunata.

Rimpoche: It is shunyata. Whatever it is shunyata is emptiness.

Audience: So at that point that one realizes emptiness from the Sutrayana standpoint, then at that time a fully enlightened Buddha with no remainder, nothing left to purify, no inherent kleshas to deal with? I mean, they’re totally omniscient at the direct experience of emptiness?

Rimpoche: No. No. No. No. No. Direct experience of the emptiness is out of five paths at the third path level. There is another fourth path called meditative path and no more learning. Meditative path also has nine stages. So no. It’s not.

Audience: Okay, so if Vajrayana is the rocket ship to enlightenment, speedier, faster they say, how does the generation/completion stage yogas in Vajrayana, how does one have to have the direct experience of emptiness from a sutra standpoint to be able to have generation/completion stage?

Rimpoche: Yes. But not at the Sutrayana level. You can gain this experience of emptiness in Vajrayana level as well.

Audience: And that emptiness, that experience of emptiness is identical.

Rimpoche: Same as the other emptiness. Besides that, there’s even sixteen different emptiness or even two emptiness on the person, or emptiness on things. So no matter whatever it is it is same thing. Same result. [1:17:45 Tibetan] Once you see emptiness on table you’re bound to see emptiness on the vase too.

Thank you very much and goodnight.

[1:18:10 Teaching ends]

[1:18:00 Ending prayers]

[1:19:06 Tape ends]