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Odyssey to Freedom – Talk IV re: Guru Devotion

Odyssey to Freedom - Tape IV Dated October 12, 2000. This talk covers Sections 13 through 16 in Odyssey to Freedom Transcripts and consolidated and bound as if it were a book.

0:00 Welcome everybody here tonight, Thursday night. So, many of you have been here many times before, so I don’t have to reintroduce what we are doing here. But I want to remind you, in case you are new to here today, we’re in the middle of Odyssey to Freedom. Right in the middle of it in the old table in sections thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. We have not reached seventeen. We’ve been doing thirteen and fourteen. Thirteen, acknowledge a spiritual master, fourteen, Investigate the qualities of a spiritual master and fifteen, reflect on the qualities of the student, and sixteen, Cultivate pure relationship. It is very interesting, we have been talking about this subject a few weeks now, but we are not going to go anywhere until we establish the base, properly, if you are seriously interested. 2:30

2:30 So, this is a little boring subject, very controversial, this guru business. It is extremely controversial. It is extremely important and may be quite boring, obviously. Talking is not very thing. But on the other hand, it is absolutely essential, without which, you truly won’t get anywhere. Anywhere! Interesting, I had this last weekend, spent time with Ram Das, in Ann Arbor. Ram Das came to Ann Arbor and we had Friday’s night conversation with Gelek Rimpoche. We started with that and then Saturday, the whole day, we did workshop. It’s obvious, many of you know Ram Das very well. It is very obvious that he has a profound guru devotional practice. Regardless, no matter what happens, no matter whatever it is, he can see the, it’s almost he can see, everything that is dealing with it or everything he is doing or everything it is almost like a reflection of a guru’s deeds. So, he is almost to that level, really, you can see a very strong devotional practice, which probably, perhaps the only most important practice he had. Everybody sees very well; he does with that. And it’s all successful. So much, so that, I mean many of you have heard that, even his ________ is guru’s grace. So, to that level to that far he can see and go and do it. And, the others, I don’t know whatever it is, but there is a very profound guru devotional practice you can see. We had a very interesting time talking about it. And he tried to expand on his new formula that he developed, that is, of “I” or “self.” I the ego, I the soul, and I the beloved, whatever he called it, enlightened, or universal. It is the three level of “I.” 6:23

6:23 It was very nice, and we tried that on _____________, too. I didn’t have a problem on that. It’s okay. We tried this with John Halifax and Sharon Saltsburg. Both of them, telling him Buddha said something and I don’t know what else and then follow that. And so, Buddhas said this and that. He was a little surprised that I didn’t have a problem. The way I look, the “I” the ego that is I which has no function whatsoever completely overpowered by ego and its activity, so I don’t have any problem with that. And, I don’t have a problem with the “I” the soul. I don’t have a problem with soul as a name and label. Some people may feel uncomfortable with that, but it depends how you look at it. Generally, a lot of people tell you, Buddhist doesn’t accept a soul. Yea, in one-way Buddhist doesn’t accept a soul, but, on the other had Buddhist does accept consciousness and sovereign being and all this. So, if you’re going to argue on the philosophical issue, then you can go ahead and do it. But I don’t think it makes any difference to a practitioner at our level whether you going to call it a soul or a consciousness or whatever, as long as it is not permanent one. 8:25. If you look at a soul as completely permanent, unchangeable, then it’s difficult. If is difficult because an individual cannot change. Individual cannot improve. Individual cannot become better. Then, what the hell are we doing here? You know. So, that is the problem. So long as you accept that as impermanent. I don’t see any problem. A name is a name. You can call that a soul, you can call it consciousness. So, whatever it may be. It is almost like ego itself. Ego is simply naming the psychologist have produced and to label something and we the practitioners, try to use something else. So, anyway, it is the same thing. And I don’t think anything is wrong which the Christian terminologies, as long as we’re talking orange with orange, apple with apple; rather that orange compared with apple. I don’t see anything wrong. 9:46.

9:46 He himself, Ram Das, what the matter with these people who try to say, Buddhas said, Buddha said. I am speaking of permanent and impermanent. So, must be that reason, so I didn’t see anyone of them and didn’t talk. I did see them but didn’t talk to them. So, must be that reason. So, then he said, “It has to be there. So, I said, yes it has to be there. I call it “Continuation of Discontinuity.” So, we worked well. We did a good job, but, at the end of it (workshop about 5:00 pm) something came up. His way of thinking is “I the Beloved” the (?) of Enlightenment. 10:54.

10:54 But then he began to think back, you get back (returning). I have no problem with coming back so long as you come back with your own powers will, wishes and authority. Rather than with the power of karma and delusion. So at the end of it, I was able to talk to him afterwards at the airport the next morning. But the thing her is, is you have a fall back, if you call it a fall back from the third level (the Path of Seeing), whatever beloved, enlightened and them every effort we put in would be useless 11:44. Because you are going to get the same thing back, so what is the use? Why do we go all the way up there and have the same thing? It is almost like Middle Eastern crisis. When they make some progress then something happens, and it’s almost taken back to the ground zero level. You know. It is very unfortunate, but it does happen. The Middle Eastern crisis is in samsara. When we’re looking and we’re looking on the liberation. So, if we have the same problem it’s not right. So, once you become enlightened you should be Enlighted and be enlightened forever, rather than come back. 12:46 So, that verses is a very important point, that is, primordial mind. 12:56

12:56 Primordial mind, the original mind, primordial mind. The question is that is the number of people, including Tibetan masters, thinks that when you encounter all, is pure almost like enlightened. It almost equals to enlightened level. So, then somehow, you get a sort of negative, emotional, delusional, troubles created. Then when it’s clean, you go back to the original. That is troubling to me., big trouble for me. Because if you have to accept the primordial mind as completely as enlightened level, then the problem arises that we are all enlightened before, one time or another. 14:22. So somehow, we got back. We got back by something gone wrong somewhere. Maybe the manufacturer has made a mistake. Maybe it is Ford or Firestone, whoever. So how a manufacture’s mistake and they made it so we would have that problem. This is very unacceptable for me. Because I do accept the primordial mind, I do. And I also believe with encountering with the primordial mind. But I cannot accept the primordial mind equals to enlightened. That is a big problem and is the source of a lot of confusion from other people. 15:13

15:13 So incidentally, what happened, is that this came up on my head, because so when you talk about the (?) of them coming back, then I had to express my reservation. Because, not only those, not only you’re enlightened, that you come back, and that is the primordial mind, and that was enlightened, and then you get back in trouble and back and all this and that, and this become big trouble and by fear of misleading. So, because of this I had to come up with a very simple reservation. But then what happened is, Tuesday came, and we’re reading the Bodhisattvacharyavatara and the very that I was reading that evening, happens to be, such a tough verse and dealing with one of the very strong viewpoints of primal substance. So, that is all linked up and why I am talking to you today as they are all linked up. 16:49 So that in English, in Tibetan they call it TSOL, if you directly translate it become the general principle. TSOL, general principle. But the translator in the Bodhisattvacharyavatara has chosen to call it primal substance (a theory or substance - attitude theory, is an ontological theory about objects positing that a substance is distinct from its properties).

17:19 So, since I’m reading in Tibetan and I know what they’re talking about. So, that is another (? not sure). It became funny what you call it, a primal substance is something that looks like a primordial mind but is somehow there is something called, unlike Judeo-Christian tradition like a “God” but they’re similar, something called a Creator, the Creator of All, everything. And, that Creator comes out and looks for something to be created. It’s called “Self.” So, these distinctions are available in Tibetan language. We call it (Ba Shedi Te Key Ru - way off), which is the principle of Primal Substance created me by putting him or her within me and so I became a being. 18:53 You see. So, it has its own complete system of liberation. It has its own complete system of everything. But, however, I’m going to cut the long story short, because it’s not going to help and make any difference. In order to make that long story short, how they say, there is that Principal Creator, decided to put a piece of His (Him) in me and I pop up and became being. So, then I am here with all the delusions and all this because the Principal Creator is not happy with me. 19:45. So, everything, whatever is happening, He created me and whatever I am experiencing is His reflection rather than my doing it. So, when He is not happy, He has those terrible dances that He performs. The dance He performs is a terrible dance. So, these terrible dances are called my suffering. And so He was a little happy, he performed this Joy dance and this Joy dance becomes my joy and then one day, somehow I may get a guru somewhere. Somewhere the guru will tell me whatever you are seeing is all lies. It is all performance but not reality. 20:41. The real truth is beyond this (?), this principle, the Primal Substance, and it is there. So, when I look at IT, Him, the Creator, He will feel so shy and this is quote in the Indian traditional culture, He’s so shy some young man looking at somebody else wife. The wife feels so shy. This is two thousand years in Indian culture, right? The wife feels so shy and she will hide herself. So, likewise, when you look at this, at the Primal Sustenance, He will feel so shy and He will withdraw and when He withdraws, I will be liberated.

21:41 So, this is how the system works. That came out Thursday (I believe Tuesday). It happens to be that very verse dealing with it, which really tells you, our existence is totally dependent on the cause (s) and effect (s). Nothing but them, cause and effects - not created, not somebody else put it in, not all, not, not, simply existing by terms and conditions, cause and conditions. And within that term and conditioning we’re functioning. We do, we do exist, we continually exist. But that continually existing self is impermanently in natural (nature). So, this is Continuation of Discontinuity, because every minute, every second, it changes, but it’s me. So that’s the reason, I don’t have the problem to accept soul as a label as long as it is Impermanent and changing. It can progress as well as regress. Progress or Regress. As long as we can do that, then that’s fine. But then you make think, can you regress? Sure, you can regress until you become fully enlightened. Until that (then) there is ups and downs always. And that’s why we have become responsible for our deeds. Anything we do, we are responsible. No one else is responsible for my deed and no one else. No one else is responsible for your deeds or her deeds. Each and every one of us is responsible for our deeds. That’s because of this reason that I give you, just now. You know all of the roads leads to you., supporting; You are responsible to our self. These are the reasons we have. 24:56.

24:56 I can make a difference to my life. I can help you to make a difference to your life. You can help me to make a difference to my life. But you cannot make a difference in my life or I cannot make a difference to your life I mean, I can make a difference, but I am not responsible for your life and you are not responsible for my deeds. But I can help you to do good. You can help me to do good. I can help you to do bad. You can help me to do bad. We can help, we can contribute, but you cannot be responsible, really responsible. So that mean my liberation is totally my deed, nobody else can decide “Yes!” Or I’m so shy I am going to fly away, and you’re liberated on that viewpoint of Primal Sustenance, is not logically stand on that viewpoint. Logically. Vice versa, there are many things, many, to me the spiritual path really is making myself better and, in the Christian-Judeo sense, bring myself closer to God. That’s fine. Bringing myself closer to enlightenment, bring myself closer to becoming a Buddha, bringing myself closer to becoming enlightened or whatever, whatever you say. But improving the individual, bringing the individual level and that’s why it’s complicated, it difficult, and there are so many layers after layers, because our karma, our negativity, our negative emotions are layers and layers. That’s why even the products liberating ourselves has so many layers and layers and layers. 27:39

27:39 Not only do you have those layers, but we need to know when, what. It is absolutely important. If you don’t know when or what, what else can you do. You can simply sit there and do one thing. Even Guru Yoga, my subject today. The Guru Yoga really tells you, if you have profound faith, profound intelligent faith, to the guru, then everything will be okay. This is how the guru yoga (works). We have talked a couple of Thursdays on this. We talk about the qualities. 28:46 You know what we really talked this time, we talked about more of what we did not talk about in “not a book,” the Odyssey to Freedom. It is not a book, it’s a transcript. I have to say not a book, because all of a sudden it came out looking like a book. 29:00

29:00 So, I want to share with you, things I did not share over there, because I want to talk different angles, different levels, so that people can get it, this. And, also, I personally hesitated to talk about this guru devotional part of it for a very long time, because I (?) feel a misunderstanding. I told you the other day, two Chinses amins, attend ended (_______) Lam Rim teaching and (_____) he kept on saying that you have to have total devotion and the Chinese admins thought, he may be a great guy, but he not and makes us the representative of the Emperor of China, his servant. That’s why he’s telling this. So, they decided not to continue to stay in his teaching. That’s what I fear of that. So, I didn’t talk much. And, plus this guru business is somehow misunderstood in the sixties. Yes, there has been a lot of wrong things. They have had a lot of taking advantage of this particular point which is important. And, so for years, for maybe almost seven or eight years, even though I talk about all Lam Rim, (such as), Foundation of All Perfection, I would mention guru devotion a little bit, and jump back. Even this time, though I spent five or six days, I did not really talk to you about the teaching of guru devotion. But I did teach the most important essence of it. 31:19

31:19 The most important essence I told you, it first started (What did I say) who said that without looking at notes, somebody said “Appreciation”, yes. Appreciation is the seed and then on the basis of appreciation it grows up. It will grow up and it will grow up. And so, we came to the level where we are talking right now, the root is developing profound faith. It is not blind faith. Bling faith leads you wrongly. All of those troubles, such as Jim Jones, and Heaven’s Gate, all of them, because of blind faith, it is extremely difficult for a first-generation people. That’s you people are first generation people in Buddhism. It is difficult because the culture is totally different. From the cultural point of view, it is difficult. So even I thought you understood. 33:05. Even you thought you understood. Perhaps you have not understood, because of the culture. The culture itself is big difference. 33:22 Yes, particularly my generation. We were brought up in the monetary, learned the dialectical Tibet system. So, my mind is very critical, sometimes too critical. I think three times before the other person thinks, one good one and two bad ones, already. 34:05. I won’t even know which one is it. So, I won’t even show, presuming. That is the critical part of it. However, however, however, however, we don’t raise that critical issue with certain people. I never raised my critical thoughts with my gurus. Never, ever. And the Tibetans in general, don’t raise the critical parts with the Dalai Lama. (Abide) it is the Dalai Lama who said so. So, no matter, whatever it is, their culture and the culture here is totally different. 35:10 So, it’s important, that you have to learn the Tibetan or the Chinese or the Mongolian or whatever you call it, call it Asian culture, or Indian for the matter, the guru business is really coming out of India. 35:28

35:28 It is the Hindu-Buddhist tradition that carries tremendous value in that. It is not out of, maybe it is something in Muslin, I know nothing about it, so it there is nothing there, why does this (?) business become important. There must be something there too. Must be, a little bit, right? I know nothing about it. So, but as far as I know it comes from the Hindu-Buddhist tradition. And it’s funny. I told you when I was a kid, I had an opportunity to meditate those Lam Rim points, in between these two great elder men. So, the point was that I can meditate or think or analyze anything, so have been told to say “Guru is Buddha. Buddha is Guru. Guru is Buddha. Buddha is Guru. There is no other Guru than Buddha. There is no other Buddha than Guru.” And these are my childhood mantra in the evening, when people are meditating. 36:56

36:56 So when you think about those angles. So, what is really happening here, is Buddha is Guru, Guru is Buddha. For this message tells me is my Guru is my Buddha. My Buddha is my Guru, which means, my guru is my mentor. The mentor will show me how to think, how to function. It is very interesting. When you talk about the guru devotion thing, you know, it is very funny, especially when I am talking this faith business. So, people will probably think yea, you have a faith in guru will tell you what to do and you just follow it. Wrong! it is an absolute mistake. No one can really make, tell anyone, to do anything. This is the other way around. It is the other way around. It is the I used it to my gurus when I have difficulties I will thing what would my guru do in this situation. And that’s how I used it, rather that they tell me what to do. (They taught you to think for yourself - my note). And if you have a profound faith and then sometimes funny things happened. I think I shared with you people, maybe not here, I don’t know where, but I think I did. 39:14

39:14 Once I was in Singapore, that the year when the Chinese man, the Trenaman Square Incident in that time, 1989. So, I was supposed to go to Tibet hoping to go and trying to get a visa to get to Beijing and I was in Singapore. So, I was waiting in Singapore, and a friend of mine, a business guy. So, he started to buy a big house in (a certain section of Singapore and that’s a lot of money) in that area. He was like buying a big building on Fifth Avenue, something like that. So, he asked me, and we do have a way of shaking, right (called casting a divination). You throw dice and this Emi Mini Mine Mo business, so, we do that. So, I couldn’t do it and I forgot, a couple of times, maybe three or four times or five times, I couldn’t do it. He goes in the morning for work, so I am (?) and we’re all alone and won’t come back till the evening. So, both of them are working and I have an announcement, so, they had a couple of helpers in the house in the daytime or whatever, the masters of the house. So sometimes we came back maybe about 10:00 or 10:30 and suddenly I go oh my you have to make a decision about the building. So, he is coming back. So, what to do? I didn’t do anything 41:20. So he says, please, please just come you know. You know, because they are, what’s happening is that two other people are trying to buy it. It sort of become last minute. So, when we went there so, we walked through, a huge three-story building, everywhere and nice building. Now I have to say something, right, buy or not buy. The guy is just waiting there and there are two other people, too, walking up and down. They’re making a decision, as well. So, I don’t know what to say. And, I thought about it, if (?) Rinpoche here, what would he say? So, he said, please come this way up by some steps over here. So subsequently when I went up to the steps, so in my visual image, devotional visual image, I say (?) Rinpoche use to have a manager. The Western people who know him says, an Egghead person, his head is like this. So suddenly I sort of saw him sort of there but the stare, so he says, he told me, (?) Rinpoche says, “If this person buys the house, no big deal. There are not going to be any illnesses or and environmentally not right or that sort of incident will not happened, but the economic part is, he knows better. 43:15 So, I don’t know, tell him that. On the steps, so anyway, up the stairs we went and looked through the window. 43:29 So he says what do you think, Rimpoche. Well, I don’t think you’ll have any illness or difficulties or anything like that because of the building. Economically, I don’t know. You’re the businessperson, not me. So, that’s what I say. So, things like that happens. The funny thing 43:58

43:58 So, so, all of those are possible on the basis of this profound faith and pure relationship. Even though, the guru, him or herself, it not great, but the person if the people have some kind of profound thing, it works, according to this one. You know, I have been reading the telling of stories out of this Mongolian thing. I saw on, the other day, there was a group of Mongolian nomads traveling somewhere, and they had a person among them who knows something about dharma, not very well, though. So, these people have a very strong faith in this guide, it’s a good guy, not necessarily developed, not necessarily learned, not necessarily great master. But they have a very good relationship between the group of nomads and this guy, and he is representing Buddha to them. So, they are looking at him as a Buddha and he is representing Buddha to them. Is he a Buddha, probably not? He is also not even a learned one. He’s kept very funny. But then this story goes, there was a group of robbers. And the robbers decided to rob those nomads traveling. So, this leader of the robbers says “I’ll go first and see if they all sleep. So, I’ll see how many people are there and from according to that, we’ll see how many people we need to take, how much we have to do and easiest to let them sleep and then we’ll go an attack them. So, I will go and watch and see how many people.” And the leader went there. 46:42

46:42 All the nomads went to sleep. Their lama did not go to sleep. He didn’t fall asleep. He kept on waking up. So suddenly he found a little hole which has mice, actually a rat. 47:15 He said, who is the person all of a sudden jumping out here.” So, at the same time the leader of robbers, jumped out and he heard this. My, that lama probably knows and has clairvoyance, no doubt in me.” So, he got a little scared, but still doesn’t show. So suddenly a mouse came out near the robber, who’s hiding there in the tent and there is some sort of dust thrown. So, he shakes his feet and started throwing the dust. And sometimes the mice on the inside started throwing a little dust. So, this lama said “Oh, you are now throwing dust.” And this guy heard. Oh, now he knows I started throwing dust by my feet. He now knows that. Oday, then the mice went back. And this lama says, “now you want to go back.” So, the robber went back and so now he knows what I am doing and thinking. So, he (the robber) got more scared. So finally, he said let me make one more attempt to make sure that he really knows. So, he came back in and can’t even find a little more. So, the mice came out. (The lama) He said, now you are coming again. So now you are coming again. So (the robber) decided this lama knows. We cannot rob those, and we will be in big trouble and the robber ran away. 49:09

49:09 So when the robber run away, and the other robbers says, “Why are you running away?” He said all were asleep but that one lama, he didn’t sleep, and he probably knows what I am saying, what I’m doing, so whatever I was doing outside he repeats from inside, he tells me. So, better not rob them. They said, “No, we should probably kill him first, so that they won’t know. We should kill him first. Then the (chief robber) said, “No, no, no we may not be able to kill him, but he will do black magic. All our children going to get sick and wives will get in trouble. It’s not worth fighting for, forget it. So, they all agreed. There are forty-seven thieves and only seventeen nomads. They could have easily overpowered (the nomads) if they do so. Because of their strong faith, so they have somehow been protected from attack of those robbers. And the story doesn’t end here. 50:57

50:57 The story continues and thereafter, one day, the leader of the robbers got very sick. They are sort of nearby, so the local doctors came and did everything and couldn’t help much. So, the robber leader has in the back of his mind that that lama has clairvoyance. He will know what to do. So, he had some kind of faith. So, he insists his robber friends to go and see that lama and give him good gifts and ask him what he can help. What can he do? So, they came to see the lama and the lama somehow said, who is this sick person? So, the person said well, he’s normally a robber and a robber leader. He’s our leader, we’re robbers. So, he thought, we’ll if he is the robber leader, we probable killed a couple of people. The lama thought, according to this. The lama thought that he killed a couple of people, then he said, well the pain that he’s experiencing now, is due to the number of people, the number of human beings, that you have killed. It’s because of that you experience the pain. If you do not regret and purify, not only will you die, you will go to hell. But if you purify and not to kill any other human beings anymore, and also retrain all your people around with you, then you will get better, I shall pray. And you will get better. 52:52. So the guy went back and told him that he could get better. So, the chief robber, said “I can get better?” The other robber said, “Yes, if you promise not to kill any human being and you restrain for all your party people not to kill any more people. You will get better. (The chief robber) He was very happy. With that happiness, somehow, something happened, and he really got better. 53:20. So he came back and gave all his weapons and the robbers become a practitioner. So, that’s the story ends here. 53:33

53:33 That’s how the story ends here according to this Mongolian Lam Rim. You know what? Why the robber gets well could be a lot of reasons, why the robber got better. The robber had some imbalance of circulation. The circulation is because of the air movement and because of the air and mind travel together, functions together. Because he was happy it affected air movement. Air movement affected his jaundice and that’s how he got better according to this. If I keep on telling you this long story, anyway, I turned like three pages of this. So, at the end, the robbers become practitioner. So, it’s all credited to all the profound faith of those nomad’s guru to that guy (chief robber) even though the guy (lama) is nothing, but a good guy, not a wrong guy. He does good things and that is how is can affect zillions of others. Different stories follow thereafter. 55:05

55:05 (In Tibetan) This is a person (?) which I have told you, the Chinese representative all listen to him. So, he says, one practitioner, one who has a profound faith in your guru, doesn’t matter where the guru is, the distance, no matter how distant, the lama and the disciple may be separated, from their mind in their heart, they are together. They even do appear, over here today, we don’t have the problem. I came from Michigan this morning, so we don’t have a problem here. I am just saying this as an example. But in old Tibet, you have been traveling on a mule’s back, so you know how many miles you can go something like seventeen, eighteen when you’re traveling from morning to evening, that much, maximum. So, then this profound relation is mental relation, not a physical relation. It’s a mental relation. And if you have that mental relationship then, everything works. 57:02. And if you don’t have that, then (In Tibetan) profound faith, then whatever quality we say is going to gain can be reversed. 57:24 You know what, the example was very funny here. During the Buddha’s lifetime, he had a cousin always challenging Buddha (Devadatta). Every time always challenging Buddha, whatever he does. 57:45

57:45 So one year there was a shortage of food (famine) and all this. And the Buddha and his disciples, who were highly developed, by their magical power, they can go in different realms and getting all kinds of different foods and brings them. Caging, the Buddhas cousin was telling the Buddha that he could not travel with them, so he asks Buddha to give him a teaching how to learn how to make the magical powers, how to go and get it. Buddha says, you have to practice, you can’t learn it. So, the Buddha’s attendant goes to a couple disciples and now no one would like to talk to him (cousin). No one shared with him. So, the Buddha’s attendant made a deal with one of the disciples, saying no matter how much he’s telling you, Buddha’s is Buddha’s cousin, so you have to help him. At least he should not be hungry. You should do something 58:54 So there is some disciple great one called Robuchon. So Robuchon said alright, I will teach him how to do it. I am not sure whether he can do it physically or not. But I will show him. 59:08

59:08 So Robuchon taught him. He can go with all the other Buddha’s disciple and pick up those from the god realms all the food and this. And one of them said, hay, you have been able to do that because Robuchon taught you. You should be very grateful to Robuchon. He said, Na. I discovered myself, Robuchon had nothing to do with this. So, the next morning he couldn’t go. So, the magical power he developed because it is not spiritual development for him. It is developed by so called Hell Realm guru there. And he is disgraceful, no disrespectful, is not been grateful to the person who is teaching. So, his power has gone down. 60:05

60:05 This is during the Buddha’s lifetime. There are many of those. So, in one way this is right. If you have that great guru devotional basis, then everything, that’s called root, root of all development. When they made those outlines, you always find the root of the development is guru devotional practice. It’s the root. How do you expect to grow any branches, or leaves or fruit if there is no root. It’s not going to work. If there is root, it will all work, and this is the truth. if it’s important, that’s why I spend time and talk to you with giving you those interesting stories and all these things and also it is the mental, really. When you have difficulties and what to do, you won’t know what to do. Then, you probably think how my guru will handle that? And I can see that very well working with Ram Das, without any shadow of doubt, with the total thing in there. 61:53

61:53 There are a number of people it works and a number of people it doesn’t. It is interesting (in Tibetan), I use to know those stories, but I forgot completely. One of the Panchen Lamas, a very famous one, I don’t know who it is now. Maybe the third Panchen Lama, he has been recognized and he has a manager. In those days it is not a big Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. They have a manager and a couple attendants and things like that. Here is a manager who is very knowledgeable, very respectable, very conservative elder monk. So, he always thinks “I am quite learned, quite good. This Panchen Lama is not the reincarnation of the earlier Panchen Lama. And he didn’t learn much and he’s a young lad now and immature. He doesn’t know much about it. So, he used to think that way 63:17 And, likewise all the staff in the Panchen Lama’s house all think the same way, because of the influence of the that elder manager. That’s what a mentor is all about it. So, the manage thinks this Panchen Lama will not know anything, but he will know better. So, they all the house staff think the same way. So, one day, somebody came and asked the Panchen Lama, will you please give me some initiation or something. The Panchen Lama knew this person is not right to be giving an initiation and he said no. So, he had a lot of offering to make and he went to the manager and talked to him. The manager thought it’s necessary, not because of right or wrong, but because of huge donations and offerings. So, the manager went to the Panchen Lama said, it is very important you should give that initiation. Then he said in the same breath, that if you don’t know what to do, then I can help you and I can make everything. 64:45

64:45 So the Panchen Lama said, okay. Panchen Lama said okay to something of short initiation. So, then he wrote down, how to make the mandalas and how to do things. The people will do it and you have to say from this prayer to that prayer, from this place to this one, from this line to this line. You have to do this, and you should generally give this much advice and that much and exactly he told. So, he said, yes 65:18 So, he gave the initiation exactly what the manager says and at the end of the initiation, he says all I don’t know how to give the initiation and the manager told me exactly what to do. I have done exactly what the manage told me to do. So, he said that in the initiation, too. 65:38

65:38 Then a couple of days later Mongolian travelers, who have no money at all came by and asked him to give (?) initiation. That is very complicated three-day initiation. So, the Panchen Lama said yes, I will give it. They asked when. And the Panchen Lama said the day after tomorrow. And the manager and everybody think, he just managed to give that short initiation. How is he going to manage with this Great Maja (?). So, he gave the total initiation, with great explanation, and all with a performed way and at the end of it he says “The other day what I gave the initiation, it’s according to the manager teaching. And today what I give is my one. 66:47

66:47 So, the mentor has both points. The point of the responsibility of leading the right thing, other than if not, whole household will think that the Panchen Lama doesn’t know anything, until he gave that initiation. Then he proved himself to be great scholar and thirteen volumes of collected works from him. The mentor sits there and thinks that he doesn’t know anything. So, everybody thinks that he doesn’t know anything. So, he could have wasted his life 67:33

67:33 Anyway, with those reasons, I would like to quote from a tantra, from the Buddhas tantra. You know what tantra is? How many people do not know what tantra is? Buddha’s teaching are divided into two categories - one is called sutra and the other is called tantra, the mystical part of it, the Vajrayana part of it. It comes out of tantra. So, that’s about it. From the tantra (Tibetan). This is it. It is very hard to read. You know why? It is the wrong spelling, spelling is wrong, writing is wrong. It is a manuscript. You know they wrote everything by figuring out what they are saying (interpreting). In Tibetan. The accomplishment or achievement of a Vajra Master. It is totally dependent on the Vajra Master and student’s relationship. (In Tibetan) Because of that any insult form any angel is called first downfall, in Vajrayana 69:48. Right, the first downfall is this Vajra Master tantra. So, we bring this in because it can only achieve, I told you the other day (In Tibetan), if the Lama delivered, you could reach anywhere you want to. To pay the fee with faith. 70:20

70:20 Remember my own personal experience about that. So, one should not forget that benefits, disadvantages, and also equally disadvantages there. So much so that in the tantra, (In Tibetan), two different things here, no matter whatever downfall you may have, one may have all five major downfalls, one person may have it together. Even then that person can be purified and become a perfect enlightened being. One who has created downfall with Vajra Master, is extremely difficulty to purify and to become enlightened, within this lifetime. This is a big strong (stone) block. That is one of the reasons, the gurus in my case, whatever conditions goes around, the gurus become very sensitive and things are difficult to handle on the issues of certain guru doesn’t agree with certain guru points. It becomes so sensitive and difficult because of these ways (In Tibetan) So that’s to say is one of the disadvantages here. So, this disadvantage becomes possible for the individual because if you started searching for the faults of the gurus. If you are searching for faults of the gurus and there you are going to find a lot of faults. Because, even they’re enlightened Buddha, but they did not come as a Buddha, they came as ordinary human being, with a normal human addictions and faults, advantages and disadvantages, altogether. 73:15

73:15 If you go into the detail of the Lam Rims, they will tell you if you are sick with jaundice you will see the conch (?) yellow and the snow mountain yellow and this and that and all sort of a funny examples they give you. They’re there. If that point help you, you can use them. But the bottom line according to Ling Rinpoche, insists and told me a number of times. The bottom line of all the reasons, beyond all these reasons, the most effective reason is that I am seeking a benefit. I am seeking advantage. I am not seeking disadvantage. So, that is the bottom-line reason. 74:22

74:22 Sooooooo, so the Buddhist tradition tells you, as I told you the other day. From the Hinayana point of view the gurus should look like Buddha. From the Mahayana point of view, the guru as Buddha. From the Vajrayana point of view, guru is inseparable (from) that of a Buddha. So that’s what it is. So, it is an absolutely individual matter. It is not a matter for public. It is an individual thing. It is a personal thing. It is not a public thing. It is a personal thing and I have a zillion different reasons why, zillions of reasons as well as examples of why you have to look and see that way. But I don’t think there is so much point. But the point is, because people want an advantage and not disadvantages. 76:04

76:04 And also, the teachers have a responsibility to show how one handles negative emotions. I think that is a very important reason (In Tibetan) We have a saying in Tibetan, whatever the grown-up people will do the kids will do the same thing. The fawns will climb on rock like the goats do. That is what the Tibet is normal saying. So, the responsibility of the spiritual guide and teachers is to share the way how to deal with negativities - negative emotions, and the positiveness. 77:48 It is all very important. I would like to conclude this somehow. I would like to conclude now. Not only do you have the profound faith, but also it is so important to remember the kindness. 78:15

78:15 These are the basis on which you gain development. Many people who had a tremendous amount of scholarship, tremendous amount of brilliant person, I am talking about the history, brilliant people one cannot gain any development because of the lack of this. Lack of this. And many can gain tremendously without putting in so much effort. As I have told you, a number of times, it is also available in the Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, Atisha had a lot of students in Tibet. One of them called (In Tibetan), he has all these opportunities to meditate, he lives in cave, comes down whenever Atisha gives teaching but meditating. So, his name is Great Meditator. One is Domo Rinpoche 79:30 (?), the number two person in this tradition. He was always busy translating Atisha, never have opportunity to meditate. The third one is (?), another guy, who has to cook all the time, never had opportunity to even say his prayers, because he had to cook and cook and cook all the time, cook. So (?), the great meditator, one day thought came up on his head. Knowledge point of view, probably Dome Rinpoche, number two, much better than me. He or she, I am never sure, anyway, let’s say he. Because I don’t want to be radical in Tibetan history. But I have a very important reason to believe it’s she. Really, I think I am the only one who says, but. Anyway, he is more learned than me, no doubt, but he has been so busy translating Atisha with all the visitors and all the thing so never had a time to meditate and practice. And then, poor, Ami has been cooking all the time and never has chance. So, I must be the best one, he thought. 81:20 So Atisha knew that. So, one day, Atisha said let us have a sit-down meeting over there. Ami, you make a nice good lunch or dinner or whatever. And we sit down. So, they sat down and Atisha says “Today I would like to know, between the three of you, who is better for your spiritual level. 81:47

81:47 So Atisha started asking questions and thought about it. So, the great meditator, forget about the Dome Rinpoche, the translator, can even (?) the cook. So, then they answered Atisha, how come he’s a meditator all this time, I have been cooking all the time. Why didn’t he catch me? Why didn’t he even get to my level. So Atisha credited this to guru devotional practice. There are a number of those. All of the great (?) lama, who could not learn but didn’t have any term to meditate because he’s serving his teacher. Maybe this is what a (?) Rimpoche might have said that, so the Chinese run away. The Chinese representatives, _________ Rinpoche, might have said that. So, this is the sign of a Master. But he could not meditate anything, but his only practice is being attendant of teacher, and washing his cloths and cooking and feeding and all this. And, certainly, he developed wisdom understanding of emptiness once when he was sweeping the floor and brought dust and put over his little apron because he is working everywhere. So, his apron and carrying the dust and coming down the steps carrying the dust to throw in the middle of the steps he realized the emptiness and he even throw those things out and where he really understood emptiness, gaining emptiness on the level of the step. 84:07

84:07 A number of those incidents, so many, Lochu Rinpoche, the previous Lochu Rinpoche and the previous ____________ Rinpoche, both of you, many of you know, maybe. Lochu Rimpoche started our Summer Retreat, remember the first time he came and gave a Mandala Initiation. and Professor Thurman, came and translated it. The first-time retreat in Jewel Heart. ___________Rinpoche came and gave the transmission of the Prajnaparamita in the text in Ann Arbor at the summer retreat. So, the previous Lochu Rinpoche and previous ______________Rinpoche is about the time of the great Pabongka . So ______Rinpoche could not understand anything and he’s a very tough guy, also a rough guy, too. So whenever he had doubt, he would like to ask Pabongak or ____________Rinpoche, so he could not find Pabongka he would run to __________a___Rinpoche, and when he could not find _____________Rinpcche he would Pabongka, maybe six or seven miles. He would walk day and night and get there and try to see him. 85:31 So Pabongka’s attendant would not let him go in, because he had no appointment, nothing, and then he suddenly appears. It could be at night; it could be at early morning. Pabongka Rinpoche could be sleeping or whatever, doing prayers, or whatever. And he wanted to go in, but the attendants would not let him go. They would have fought there all the time. They would even have fist fights. Every time _________Rinpoche goes there they have fist fight. Likewise, he runs to Lochu Rinpoche. Lochu Rinpoche doesn’t have attendants like Pabongka has. He is just a geshe, a very famous geshe. But Lochu Rinpoche would not talk to him. He said, it’s not time for you, get out. He’s thrown him out and shut the door. ______________Rinpoche has those difficulties all the time. He couldn’t even figure out impermanent and permanent man (Name ?). In the Tibetan language, it’s a little funny. Me Cut, the permanent men, Me Manessa, means without cut, means impermanent. So, you always have difficulty. A I Me Cut or Me Manessa Cut, am I impermanent or permanent man? 86:55. He had a great deal of difficulties. He might have gone twenty times to those teachers to find out, whether he is a permanent man or impermanent. 87:10.

87:10 So one day Losha Rinpoche said, you really want to understand that. He said, yes, I do. So, will you listen to whatever I say. Yes! Take your bowl out. He had a big bowl. He doesn’t have any money. He is very poor. So, whenever the teacher he has a big bowl. So wherever the bowl is people give offering of tea or food, He lives on that, ___________ Rinpoche at that time. So ________ Rinpoche says take you bowl out. So Losha Rinpoche peeing in his bowl and it’s completely filled up and said drink it. 87:52. And ________ Rinpoche said without any hesitation during the whole thing. So Losha Rinpoche said how stupid you are. 88:10

88:10 So according to the __________ Rinpoche, the word stupid somehow hit him there and somewhere here and went something like a ringing and all of a sudden L Rinpoche is a great scholar, without anything after drinking that bowl of urine. 88:36 So this is not a public story, okay. It’s a private matter for between those two. But it worked for that person. So, things like that happened a number of times and I guess I should cut my talk here. 89:12. Anyway, if I don’t. Then you know the most important thing, another thing, interesting thing, I have to tell you. 89:25

89:25 When Atisha came to Tibet, many people said “Oh, this is a great Indian scholar.” So, he had a teaching. And someone said, I want the teaching and I want a way of developing myself. So, somebody told Atisha I want a teaching. Atisha did not reply at all. The person thought that Atisha did not hear me. He said, more loudly, I want a teaching. Atisha did not reply. So, he shouted at the top of his lungs, I want a teaching. Atisha said, Ha, Ha, Ha. I had a good ear, I heard you right from the beginning. But teaching is profound faith, faith, faith. How’s that? So, the conclusion is Nagarjuna. Guru devotional practice conclusion is Nagarjuna. Nagarjuna is says (I Tibetan) so the best purification is done purification on the basis of guru devotional practice. Best accumulation of merit is done on the basis of guru devotional practice. The offering is offering is to the guru which is offering to the total enlightened beings all the enlightened beings and great wisdom will of the enlightened beings will be offered through this. (In Tibetan) by doing that, by making the gurus happy, you will receive wisdom from all the enlightened beings. So, this is one of the keys. 92:03

92:03 But, we don’t make that very public because are bound to misunderstand. That’s why I am saying it is not public but is private. People bound to; you know the Chinese representatives misunderstood. In the seventeenth century, thought, oh, this is bad lama he wants to make us his attendant. We are representing the Emperor of China so how can we be his attendant. So better go away. So, that sort of thing happens. So, conclusion is guru devotion is the backbone of your spiritual path. Sadhanas, high level Vajrayana, Mahayana practices, Samadhi, Viviana, bodhi mind all of them rooted with this and within the framework of this. And that’s why Lama Chopa is so important. Essence of Lama Chopa is guru devotional practice. Well, I don’t know whether I have done service to you or disservice for you. I don’t know if I don’t say it, sometimes, it is not right. So, anyway, so these couple of days we spent on that. You think about it and asked questions to yourself and to the sangha friends and to me, also, constructive questions. 94:10