Archive Result

Soundfile 20010629GRNYTriInterview

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location New York

Topic Tricycle Interview

Transcriber Jill Neuwirth

Date 1/22/2022

(Speaks with audience about his visit) [0:00:48.5] Interviewer: Okay Rimpoche, Thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to speak with you. Rimpoche: Thank you. Interviewer: Maybe you can tell us a little bit who Gelek Rimpoche is and how he came to the West to start with. Rimpoche: Okay, well the Gelek Rimpoche, Rimpoche Gelek, whichever way you want to put, some people call Rimpoche Gelek, some people call Gelek Rimpoche. I personally like to be called Rimpoche Gelek, it’s like the Father Thomas or something rather than becomes Rimpoche the last name. And anyway, so I was born in Tibet in 1939 and did my Buddhist studies in Tibet and in ’59 I’ve been kicked out of Tibet by the Communists taking over Tibet and then I was in India for a while continuing my study and also working under the direction of His Holiness The Dalai Lama for schools as well as cultural institutions and religious institutions. And by ’75, that is 1975, on the instructions of the teachers of The Dalai Lama, and I begin to sharing my knowledge of Buddhism with the Western Europeans and Americans and all this (?) [0:02:50.3] people and all that.

[0:02:52.5] So then came to the point of establishing a Jewel Heart Netherlands. And there is a Dutch woman, PhD student, studying in India from the Nijmegen. And with her, she continuously study with me in India and with her insistence that I came to Netherlands, into Netherlands, and we set up the Jewel Heart Netherlands in Nijmegen. And of course now there is quite a number of people in Jewel Heart in Netherlands, both, all places in Nijmegen, (City?) [0:03:50.8] and (Locations?). And even there’s quite a number of people though we don’t have organized in Amsterdam but quite a number of people in (Town?) [0:04:01.6] and that’s how I came. And after the Jewel Heart in Netherlands then we set up Jewel Heart United States. Netherlands came first and United States second. So we are established a headquarters based in Ann Arbor, Michigan and we also have a practice in Chicago, Cleveland, New York here, and Lincoln, Nebraska and small study groups in San Francisco, Seattle and all that number of other places. There also Jewel Heart in Malaysia, Singapore and all that. Yes, that’s a brief introduction of me. (Laughs)

[0:04:52.4] Interviewer. Thank you. Could you tell us what dharma means for you? Rimpoche: I’m sorry? Interviewer: Could you tell us what dharma means for you? Rimpoche: Well, dharma means to me is, to make my life positive, helpful, and use for the service of other people, to benefit them. And also produce a better future life for myself. I think that’s dharma to me. It is more how you live, how you conduct your life rather than how you be holy. (Laughs) That’s dharma to me. Interviewer: And when you talk about future life do you mean the rest of your present life or do you also think about next life? Rimpoche: Both. I am from the background of believer in reincarnation. So I’m talking about this rest of my life as well as my future lives. So the funny thing you raise this question, because there’s a big difference between the viewpoint of the people who can accept or understand the reincarnation, and who cannot. The perspective of your view of your life is big difference. If you don’t understand reincarnation, your life begins at the birth and it ends at the death, you’re in that narrow little state. And when you begin to understand the reincarnation, your scope completely changes. You have a panoramic view of your lives. Things just doesn’t end here.

[0:07:18.4] Things just doesn’t begin here. It is big difference. I’m glad you asked that question, thank you. Interviewer: But then is it you, or is it the person who reincarnates, or is it other person, are you ever the same? Rimpoche: Interesting question. I’ve put a lot of thoughts on this. Very funny. And I don’t have it here with me, but maybe I’ll be able to show you later. When you look at those, you know, when you look at this Tibetan, this eight lucky signs, lucky signs, there’s one thing called endless knot, it’s continuation , knot doesn’t have end. So I look that as a chart for a reincarnation. And when you put that chart of endless Tibetan knot, cross over this genome chart, you know the physical gene charts? When you can cross with this together, you know the individual’s life, we are running around all the time continuously. Then we can cross with the physical gene, when these two chart meets, I call life. The physical gene provided identity. The- let’s call it mental gene chart, that endless knot provides that you are continuation of life. And these two can cross, here you have life, this life. With the identity of physical identity. When this gene comes from my parents and goes through children. The other gene, the mental gene, is runs around, and next one will be different identity, but the same person. Do you remember? At the childhood quite a number of people do remember. But after age of seven or eight then memories begin to fade away.

[0:10:01.5] Or some people can maintain, lot of people cannot. So, yes, the same person, although the different physical identity. Interviewer: And possibly a mental state- Rimpoche: Possibly. Possibly, yes. Interviewer: Do you think that Buddhism can exist without the belief or doctrine of reincarnation? Rimpoche: Very definitely. Buddhism today is totally different than the view of Buddhism in past, decades ago. You know why? Because the scientific developments. Particularly this bio- what you call it? Genetic, scientific development and biochemical developments and all of them. And also the- and all of them is really making what Buddha said was perfect reality. Particularly you know, when Einstein finds, found, the theory of relativity and point of reference is very much in principle of Buddhist idea of interdependent nature. Interdependent relationship. If you really know what you’re talking about Buddhism, truly has almost nothing to do with belief systems. It is the reality, it is a scientific, it is very much what we are and very much what science. And that’s why the Buddha’s experience that he shared two thousand five hundred years ago, it is truly relevant today in downtown Amsterdam or Nijmegen.

[0:12:26.4] So it is really the more the science particularly have physics, thing, when it’s more developed and the Buddhist become much more relevant.. If you are really truly knowing and looking at the true Buddhist teaching. Interviewer: I read a quote of you in Tricycle magazine I think a few years ago, which you said that the realization of people in this, after the Buddha is always less than Buddha’s realization. Is that the correct quote? And I ask it because if you talk about influence of modern science maybe that there can be change? Rimpoche: I don’t think so. I really don’t think so. I’m not sure whether that is correct quote, because of once you become a buddha, you become a buddha. The buddha of earlier and buddha of later in their knowledge point of view, their quality point of view, it is equal. Cannot be- one cannot be better than the other. Following buddhas, bodhisattvas and all these are slightly less than buddha just because they’re not buddha yet. And scientific development is bringing the facts, actually it’s bringing the facts and then the fact, the facts tell it. Of course, the science choose to go away from the believing system and follow the facts. And now, the science make the hundred and eighty degree turn and following the, particularly the statement that Buddha has given, because it really proves to be, you know, it’s need and so funny, it’s needed answer to show up in the West, to say what Buddha said was correct. So that’s a little funny, but that’s what it is.

[0:14:57.5] Yes? Interviewer: And I think you’re a Gelukpa lama? Rimpoche: Yes. Interviewer: But you don’t look so much as a traditional Gelukpa lama. Is there a reason for this? Rimpoche: Perhaps I’ve been the naughty Gelukpa lama. (Laughs) The funny thing is, the lama, the word what you understand in the West, and lama what you understand in tradition, it’s two different thing. In the West, lama you understand is somebody who’s wearing robes, being monk. And in traditional, the word lama is equivalent to the word guru in Sanskrit. So I’ve been recognized as an incarnate lama by the age of four, I believe. And if then you become a layperson, not be remain as a monk- I should say when you fail to remain as a monk, and even then the recognition of incarnate lama somehow doesn’t go away. So it remains in that way. So but traditionally in old Tibet for example, my own father was also very, very well-known and well-established lama, incarnate lama. And in old Tibetan system the incarnate lamas after they become a layperson they still wear robes. I don’t. I don’t because the robe, that is for the respect of the robe, not for me. And the robe is the sign of, sign of celibacy. And I am not. I’m a layperson just like you and me. And so why should I have different dress? It is a wrong signal. And is already given a lot of confusion in the West. To avoid that I wear normal Western clothes. And I don’t wear Tibetan dress, some Tibetan laymen dress somehow doesn’t suit me. I’m too fat anyway, so. (Laughs)

[0:17:41.0] Interviewer: (Inaudible, background noise) [0:18:40.0] I think I heard you say that you failed to be monk, but I’m sure there are very positive reasons of not becoming a monk. Rimpoche: I don’t know any positive reasons not to become a monk. And actually, it’s my own delusion and my own negative emotions making me not to be continue to be monk. But also, I know where I can claim this, but also it found me very easy to work with the Western people who are having a difficulties. And a lot of difficulties are relationship. And it’s very easy to talk to me while wearing suit and pant, I’m not wearing suit today. (Laughs) T-shirt and pants rather than somebody who’s wearing a red or yellow robes. So from that angle then maybe little benefit. But it is nowhere I can claim as beneficial. For me it’s a failure. Yes. Interviewer: What (Dutch word?) [0:20:15.4] should it mean for a Westerner normal person to turn to the dharma, not should it mean in the way this person continues to live? Rimpoche: Well, my suggestion to the Western friends should be first you have to understand what is all about it. And read, attend lectures, go to seminars, read, read my book. (Laughs) That Good Life, Good Death; Tibetan Wisdom of Reincarnation will be published in October. So, read, there are a lot of books and read and understand, And find out whether that can help yourself or not. And if you find it is useful, even then don’t completely jump in. First study and practice within yourself and if you like it, if you’re helpful, adopt. If not, reject.

[0:21:34.1] You have total freedom, total choice. Better take advantage of that rather than somewhere locked in. Before anything else go to initiation and certainly if you said well you belong here, I belong there you know and that thing is not very Buddhist way. Not very dharma way. It’s not even a, not a way that how the modern democratic society functions. So the first thing is to find out whether it’s suitable or not, by reading, by listening, by watching program like this and all these and that’s what you should do. And after that, if you like it and then you sort of see whether it fits you or not and then you gradually may join it. So and that will be helpful and less harmful. Sometimes when they say, Oh, there’s initiation, some great big lama’s doing initiation, why don’t you go initiation? You commit this, commit this, hundred different commitment knowing nothing. So at the end of it you got a lot of commitments, nothing else, so I really don’t think that’s wise way of doing it. Interviewer: Does it mean that you turn away from the normal work? Rimpoche: No, it doesn’t mean that at all. The dharma, if it’s good dharma practitioners, one should be able to live a normal life better. Actually, what is really dharma is- it’s very funny I must tell you little story about my book, it’s coming from.

[0:23:27.6] When I finished that book, on telephone driving between Nijmegen and Schiphol on the, in car, seven thirty in the morning, my editor is in California nine at night, we’re talking on the phone. And you know when I’m getting to that, to that, you know from Amsterdam you’re going toward Schiphol, that direction, then she said, I guess we came to the end, what is your dedication, who would you like to dedicate this book? And I thought about it, I say, okay, I dedicate to my master, from my parents, for giving me life, to my masters teaching me how to live. So actually, good living is dharma. Interviewer: So it also means very much being in society- Rimpoche: Being yourself, being yourself, being in the society, being nice person, being good person, Dalai Lama always says, warm heart, good person, good human being. What does he say, universal responsibility, thank you. And all of it, yes. That’s what it is.

[0:24:51.6] And that’s also the relevant buddhadharma of this new century. Yeah, really that’s relevant. And it is very difficult to be able to function in traditional way, because the time has changed. We’re no longer in 1600s. We’re in twenty-first century. So we have to move according to that. So that’s my thoughts. Interviewer: Yes, and what exactly in this last, when you say the time has changed, and so dharma the way we practice dharma has changed. Can you explain that a little bit further? What we are the main points we should focus on? Rimpoche: Well, traditionally you have all the time in the world, so you can sit and meditate for years together. But in today’s world we have to pay our bills. (Laughs) Unless you are very lucky one, somewhere you can hide somewhere up in the north of this Amsterdam, where you go in those islands up there so you don’t have to, maybe you’re building up that high over there or something. If you can hide somewhere place like that, you’re lucky then maybe you’re okay. But on the other hand, in Netherlands, you know, your social services so wonderful and give lot of opportunity to the people to do what you want to, and it’s fantastic and beautiful social services in Netherlands. Nowhere else is available. And I’m really admiring that, deeply appreciate it, and I hope you will not lose that with the E.U. or European Union or whatever. You know, really, you know, the Dutch have tremendous good thing. You work hard, that also you Dutch people work so hard. And Dutch and German, they work really hard. And so you earn your life but I hope you don’t lose them to the Spanish and Greeks and all that, Italians. (Laughs)

[0:27:16.4] They’re coming joining in this E.U. business. Anyway, so you have good opportunity there. But the rest of everywhere else, everybody, even in Netherlands, you have to pay your bills. And when you have to pay your bills, it’s not that easy. So you have to work. You have to make a living. And besides that, and traditionally in Tibet we even used to say, if you cannot make your living, if you’re not successful in the material world, the chances of being successful in spiritual world is less. There are a lot of people who thinks that you know, well, I can be sort of hippie in the material world and don’t care, but I will be great in the spiritual world. I have my doubts. So the combination of it. I don’t mean you have to be greedy, driven yuppies but you have to make a reasonable good living and contribution towards society rather than liability towards society. And then you have opportunity to practice spiritual path. Whether it is Buddhist or Judeo-Christian tradition, or whatever it may be, so I think the sort of contributing member of being in society is number one. Not try to be a liability and then adds up to spiritual. And it’s become icing on cake.

[0:29:03.8] Interviewer: Thank you Rimpoche. Rimpoche: Before I close I’d like to say hello to all my friends in Netherlands, those who are Nijmegen as well as (Names of towns?) [0:29:15.7] and anywhere else. Say hello to everybody, thank you. Second Interviewer: If you grant me one more question, Rimpoche? Rimpoche: Okay. Second Interviewer: Would you say something about the role of transmission and teacher student, the notion of the teacher the necessity of having a teacher? Rimpoche: Okay, so is that a question (?) [0:29:34.8] already? Okay. So, well the question is teacher necessary? Yes. What I understand, teacher is absolutely necessary because, you know, a number of reasons but most important thing pop up in my head right now is the spiritual path is unknown path to us. Particularly in the West. There is no reference. There is no point of reference available. So anybody can sit there and dream all kinds of things and claim that this and that. And that could be very, very harmful, not only to yourself, to the person him or herself, but also to society, and people that follows you. It’s really like blind leading blind. And since there is not good reference point where we can really refer, sort of continuation of teachings lineage becomes a reliability. And reliability is very important for the individual practitioners or person who’s following. So for me the teacher is important and necessary. The relationship is also a big question from the traditional Buddhist point of view guru-disciple relationship is a fundamental basis of, they even call it root of development. But on the other hand, every teacher who teach dharma has to be guru or not, is become guru or not, they’re all big, big different question.

[0:31:56.3] And that also, the human intelligency, intellectual capacity of educated human beings are equally important and that, using that is equally important as for when the teacher’s direction. So I’m suggest, since we’re in such a time, yes you follow, take the direction of the teacher, but question the teacher. Question, which is traditionally also do. Question the teacher and follow. At each and every point use your common sense and negotiate with the teacher. And that’s how you should go. That’s my feeling. Thank you. (Audio cuts) [0:32:59.8]

[0:33:06.8] Third Interviewer: (Inaudible) … Interviews with some of the older Western monks, you know, that studied for thirty years. Rimpoche: And the- Third Interviewer: Roger (Inaudible) [0:33:17.1] George Chernoff (?) and Renee (?) and Neil, Neil Borton (?) from Australia [0:33:25.3] and- Rimpoche: (Inaudible) Third Interviewer: No, I didn’t get him. Rimpoche: Why? Third Interviewer: Oh, Nick. Nick! Of course I did, actually. I’ve given Nick the guest editorial. Instead of me writing the editorial, because I was never a monk or a nun, I said you can write it and then I’ve put myself further down the magazine. So he’s doing that. And the Ribur Rimpoche has some advice as well. So you know, don’t even think about getting ordained until you’ve done your lamrim properly first. You know, do the path, do the path of liberation and then think about it, but anyway we would be very anxious to get you to tell us what you think, how relevant it is for Westerners to be monks and nuns in the twenty-first century. Because some of them do tend to rush into it and they disrobe again, don’t they? Very quickly, some of them.

[0:34:16.3] Rimpoche: Well, if you can be monk or nun, of course nothing can be better than that. It is wonderful thing. One of the Buddha’s last gifts is the sangha community. Sangha community. And that is the nuns and monks who are, it is one of the greatest way and Buddha himself have a not only chosen himself living that way, but introduced. And that is no doubt is great way. But can we become, the question remains, can we achieve enlightenment without being a monk or nun? The answer here is as far as I know, it’s definitely yes. So like if you read this Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand by Pabongka, which Wisdom Publications have published that. And if you read there, there is a verse quoted from Marpa the founder of Kagyupa tradition, or- no, no. It’s not Marpa, sorry. There’s a verse it says, kan chi (Quotes in Tibetan) [0:36:07.0] Even one who remains in the household, you can obtain liberation or ultimate enlightenment. The example is like Marpa and great earlier Tibetan Buddhist ministers and kings and things like that. So is it absolutely necessary in my opinion, answer is no. Is it good to be? Absolutely, no doubt is good to be.

[0:36:56.6[ Now the question is what does that do? How does- what do they contribute to the society? That is the question. But if you are good monk, a good nun, and if you really can make a good role model for other people to follow, then again it is wonderful. But if you wear robes, and if you provide different role model, other than good one. Then perhaps you may be doing some disservice. So, that’s my opinion. Third Interviewer: That’s wonderful. Would you ever consider re-robing yourself? Rimpoche: No. No the thing is I admire people who become re-ordained, but that’s gives, sends very wrong and a mixed message. So I been unfortunate failure to keep my vows and became a layman and perhaps the rest of my life I’d rather be that way. So I try to send message even though you’re- I’m not trying to copy George Bush, George W. Bush who said, even you are C class you can still become President. (Laughs) I’m not trying to follow that, but I’m trying to send, say whatever you do, whatever jean you wear, robes or not robes, the most important thing is be a good person and try to be compassionate and try to have motivation of being helpful. And so I rather sort of you know send that message rather than sending mixed message (Inaudible) [0:39:15.3] for that’s the reason. That’s the only simple reason, no other reason. Thank you. Third Interviewer: Thank you very much. I’ll send it to you (Discusses email address to send it)