Archive Result

;;;1Soundfile 19970504GRJHNLWID05

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Jewel Heart Netherlands

Topic Working on Inner Growth

Transcriber Vicki Cahill

Date February 26,2022

GR: And I’m a non-vegetarian. So, I eat everything. (DT) Everything, except myself. (laughs) (DT) And then the argument was, if you eat meat, the normal Tibetan Buddhist point is, you know, because, because, it’s not killed for you, so you don’t have downfall. This is what normal thing is. (DT) But the point is; well, because we ate meat. Because we buy. Even it’s not for you. But you buy meat, so you contribute to the killing. (DT) And that’s true fact. (DT) We do contribute for sure. (DT) I mean, if there is no, if there is no meat eater there will be no butcher shops, you know. That’s for sure. (DT) So, by eating meat and by buying. Even it’s not for you. We definitely contribute for killing. (DT) So, then the people go on and say, “Yeah. If that’s so, then why do the Tibetan Buddhists eat meat? And why do Buddhist eat meat. As a Buddhist, you should be totally vegetarian.” (DT) It’s true. It’s true. Totally we should be vegetarian (DT) But many are not. And that we have no right to justify eating the meat. (DT) And we must accept it is wrong thing to do. (DT) And however, now my argument. That’s my “but” comes in. (laughs)Lama Pema: To, to debate with the Tibetan teacher. The reason is because in the first line of the writing he says, 0:00:12.6 (Tibetan: she je tam che su be chen pa) Means, the one who has wide eyes sees everything. So, that really provoked everybody else. Who can see everything? And they basically say, “Who’s that? Who knows everything, who’s omniscient?” So, they came up and started to. All they enter Tibet and then started the debate in the place called 0:00:40.6 Mahalangur Chitwan, right below the, right behind the Nepalese border actually. Right behind the Everest. And there the debate took place and they were defeated. And later they renounced their system and became monk. And until recently, until 1959, their hairs, when they cut off their hairs to become monk were still preserved in the Sakya monastery in Tibet as the proof of that.

0:03:04.0 I also said, the vegetables does not necessarily grow in pure land alone. (DT) That’s true, you know. I mean, you grow vegetable. Your food. There’s a lot of insects involved. You do. (DT) You drive a car, we kill a lot of insects under that. (DT) And you drive a bicycle. (DT) little. They also kill. I mean, that’s a part of life. (DT) I think that’s called samsara. (DT) So, you cannot be perfect (DT) No one can. Really. You can’t be too much righteous and try to be perfect because you are not possible. (DT) That’s why, even the negativities have one good quality. (DT) To be able to purify. (DT) That is the quality of the negativities. (DT) So, we create negativity. Cannot avoid. (DT) Whatever we do. (DT) We do create negativity. Can’t be absolutely free, you know, of negativity. No way. (DT) That doesn’t mean you can do anything you want to, you know. I mean, just sort of, don’t bother anything. That’s. That’s also not right. (DT) So, you do whatever we can. (DT) And when you cannot (DT) then you purify. (DT) I believe that is how we balance our life. (DT) That may be too spiritualistic talk here. (DT) If it’s so, I’m sorry. (DT) Ok. So. Did you raise your hand again? That sir. Yeah. Why?

0:05:59.0 Audience: I wondered if there, if you can make difference between eating meat because there’s nothing else available. In other words, it’s strictly to support your own life. And if animals are killed for us because people don’t really need it but enjoy.

GR: I don’t like justification. Truly speaking. It’s not true. There’s nothing else to eat. I mean, the good old Tibet, we say, “Well, nothing else to eat.” But you can still eat grains, you know. (laughs) But that’s an excuse. Justification. But I really personally don’t like the justification. I think you really. You really have to; to; to be honest with yourself. And you have to be straightforward. And there is no good quality for eating meat. And for some, may be necessary, but that is very few cases. But still, you have a lot of protein substitutes and so and forth. But even the meat eating. Even health-wise it’s become bad now. We will know. We all know. I don’t think there’s a justification to be done on that. The true fact is fact. That’s if it’s bad, it’s bad. (DT) If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. (DT) Also, there’s the abortion question. (DT) I don’t think anybody says, “Abortion is good.” Nobody says. (DT) Even the abortion rights people will not say, “Abortion is good.” (DT) (laughs) I really don’t think so. (DT) Nobody is saying, it’s good. (DT) But sometimes its become necessary. (DT)

0:09:02.3 So, the question of the right of the woman to her own body. That’s the question. Nobody’s arguing with abortion is good or bad. But the right of the woman. That is the thing. (DT) And I certainly don’t want to link up abortion and euthanasia. But that’s again the question of the right of the individual arises. (DT) Ok. You first.

Audience 2: It’s a very personal question

GR: Very personal.

Audience 2: Yes, 0:09:59.4 to you, a man eats stew(???). You said, “It’s wrong to eat meat.” You say that. I cannot understand you always also said, “I eat everything.” So, I can’t understand that.

GR: Well. That means. That means, I don’t do everything right. What’s wrong with that?

Audience 2: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you.

GR: Thank you. (laughs) No, no. It’s true.

Audience 2: However, I think it’s true that suffering, you use that term. I will say it in Dutch first. Is that ok?

GR: Sure. Say whatever way you want to.

Audience 2: (DT) (Dutch) I’m sorry.

Translator: (Dutch) Now he’s jumping off stage, place. This is something like, the lama doesn’t wear any underwear. You know that?

0:12:14.9 GR: Who?

Translator: This is a typical case. Do you know what I mean? This is a typical case of, you told this story once about if you go into logical thinking you can come to conclusions which are slightly embarrassing. So.

GR: Why?

Translator: Well, I’ll tell you what she, what she said. Previously you said that the reason for you, why you can eat meat is that vegetables do not grow in pure lands either.

GR: I didn’t say that.

Audience: You did say that.

GR: I didn’t say that.

Audience 2: Yes.

GR: I did not say. I might have said few years ago. Possible. I used to think that way. True. And I didn’t say you can eat meat. I don’t justify that at all. So, really true. And I do eat meat, because I do want to eat meat. True fact. (laughs) Yesh. Really true. And we like to talk compassion, but we eat meat. That’s a fact. And. And also the vegetarian, I said. You know what I said is, the vegetarians also involved in killing. Because the vegetable has to grow. Vegetable has to be looked after. The ground has to be moved. It has to grow. You know. It has to put; even you don’t put chemicals, but you have to put a lot of fertilizers in. So, there’s. So, a lot of insects and so and forth involved. That’s what I was saying. Well, I’m not justifying the other one. I’m just simply making this statement. Parallel statement.

Translator: I’ll try to explain what she said, anyway.

GR: Ok.

Translator: Her point is that, if you know that it’s wrong to eat meat and that if by not eating meat, that you can help to make suffering less. Then how. Then you should not eat meat.

GR: You’re right.

Translator: It would be better not to eat meat. And then isn’t it very lazy to eat meat nevertheless?

GR: I don’t know. It might not be lazy. Very good question.

Audience 2: Sorry?

GR: Very good question. (DT)

0:14:59.4 If you say, “Isn’t that wrong or isn’t that negative to eat meat?” I will have to say, “Yes, for sure.” But if you say, “Is this lazy?” I’m not sure. I don’t think it’s lazy. And there’s no laziness involved in that. Ok. You can look in other the way by; by not try to avoid eating meat, isn’t that laziness? Well, it may be. May be from that angle. But by eating meat alone, is that laziness? I don’t think so. (DT) I can. I can see how you mind works.

Audience 2: Yeah

GR: But by not eating meat, if it’s your goal, then eating continuously the meat, continuously is laziness. However, in my mind, by not eating meat, is this my goal? It might not be. So, therefore it might not be laziness. You know, really, I’m looking that way. I’m sorry. I jump past come the question. You wait for a little while. Well, let’s finish this first. (DT)

Audience: (Dutch)

GR: I’m talking about myself alone. I’m not talking about Buddhist at all. I’m talking about me. (Laughs) (DT) Every good thing you cannot do. (DT) That does not. There are a lot of good things. You cannot do every good thing. (DT) And every bad thing you cannot avoid. (DT) That’s my main point of not to be righteous. (DT) So, every. If you do every good thing, then we give holiday to Buddhas and bodhisattvas. (DT)

0:18:09.6 They’ll lose their job. (DT) Just joking. That’s a joke. So, that’s; that’s my attitude. (DT) I’m not representing. I’m not making a statement on behalf of Buddhist or Tibetan Buddhist or even Jewel Heart. This is me. (laughs) (DT) That’s me only. (DT) Yeah. So, now you sir. Oh, no. Robert’s next. Sorry.

Robert: Yeah. I have a question about euthanasia. About two weeks ago and we had to decide in one week time we need to get to the vet and get the dog, whether we should let her live and suffer for how long there is until perhaps they will die of themselves, or to end it and we decided to end it both days. And I was wondering, if can you say that killing create too. Because, tried to weigh, it’s not my fate. (Dutch)

GR: Is no question, it’s a good motivation. (DT) And I’m quite sure it’s killing too. (DT) That. I’m quite sure it’s killing too. Whether you did the right thing or the wrong thing. That’s a different question. (DT)

0:21:01.9 For the case. For the case of dog or cat or horse, if it’s suffering a lot, it might be the right thing to do (DT) You know what I mean?Robert: Suffering?

GR: No. Killing. Ending is the right thing to do. (DT) For human beings, from another human being. I don’t think it’s the right thing to do. (DT) So, therefore I will, I mean we will. I will not support capital punishment for whatsoever. (DT) No matter how evil the person might be. (DT) Capital punishment. But euthanasia. That’s a different question. Who is deciding? Themselves. Not the government. Not the law. (DT) So, the question is different. (DT) Because the person himself, or herself making the decision to end his or her life. (DT) Rather than we, some different person decided to end his or her life. (DT) That’s how I look. (DT) And some people may think, “Why animals you can decide, and why not human beings you cannot decide?” (DT) Two reasons. The animals cannot make decision for themselves. (DT) Maybe they do. But they have no way of communicating. And so, you make. You make the decision for them. (DT) And then the chance. There’s a hope of the animal taking better rebirth in the future. (DT) And human beings is. I mean, there’s equally hope. However, it’s already good life. (DT)

0:24:00.6 So, it’s so many things involved in there. (DT) So, these are my thoughts. And I don’t know. Everybody. They make their own decision. Nobody ask you to make decision for you. Really. I mean, for animals are different. But (DT) About meat eating, I’m not just fine myself at eating meat. There’s no justification for me eating meat. It’s true. (DT) Yes sir.

Audience 3; I would like to combine a few things, which thing have said today.

GR: Good. Very good. I’d be happy to do. Yeah. Listen to it. Good.

Audience 3: And I also wanted to put in very strong request. Also We’ve been talking about these activities and all Buddhism activity. 0:25:12.4 And detachment, Buddhist (?) but now we are in the present-day world. And I can very much buy that the Tibetan Buddhists in the old days eat or ate meat. But I think the present-day situation is a grave one. I think. Because the past years, it seems more and more clear that the way we are producing food is doing a lot of harm. We are messing around with genes in this world.

GR: Messing around what?

Audience 3: Messing around with genes.

GR: Genes Yes. Yes.

Audience: All the cows look the same. We are putting. We are putting chickens in very small boxes. Five, so they cannot move. And because they get aggressive, they cut off the beaks. Things like that. And they are putting a lot of animals together in small cages. So, they all look alike. So, then when the sickness comes, they have to kill thousands and thousands. And it’s all because of money. You know. So, I think, and then this my request. I think that Tibetan Buddhism has a clean book here. And people are not listening to our own churches at this moment.

0:26:59.9 I think it’s. It’s the task for Tibetan Buddhism to give an answer to this. And I think it should be different, because the context is different. I think the answer to be different then say, two hundred years ago. I think it would be a good thing if you used your connections to talk about these things.

GR: Thank you. (DT)

Translator: Is that correct?

Audience 3: It’s not only about meat. It’s also the way we are producing our vegetables. One.

0:29:56.4 The biggest producer of soya this moment is also the producer of pesticides. And this producer, is taking the genes of the soya, not for benefit of mankind, but to make the soya resistance against the pesticide. So, this is the very.

GR: (laughs) Making more money.

Audience 3: Yeah. Making more money.

GR: Yeah. Well. Thank you for your remark. But I don’t whether Tibetan Buddhism have a clean book or not. I do not know whether people listen to Tibetan Buddhism or not. But your suggestions are really great. And I think we should really consider whatever we can contribute from any direction. And that for sure. That for sure. (DT) Public awareness. I think that really helps. (DT) Ultimately it is the people who make decisions. (DT) It is the power the people. (DT) And the people has the power. And that include all of us. (laughs) 0:31:42.9 Bettis (?) made a song there, right? People has power. That’s what it is. You said the same thing. Ok. Yes.

Audience 4: (Dutch)

Translator: Yesterday, he already asked you about having intellectual knowledge and information on the one hand and real inner grasp, inner development on the other hand.

0:32:59.3 And the role of emotions in that process. Now, today specifically, his question is; if emotions or feelings can be guardians to tell you if you are going in the right direction in your development?

GR: Feelings and emotions. Can they be right?

Translator: Guardians.

GR: Guardians.

Translator: Guardians. So, they tell you if you are developing in the right direction. If you are following the right path.

GR: I believe the awareness. What I look awareness as one of the mental faculties. We label the mental faculty. But I think kind of. You know. Another activity of mind. Mental faculty. Awareness. (DT) Mental faculty. Awareness is comparing with the intellectual information that you have and intellectual information which you have, which you already analyzed. On which you had drawn conclusion. And your awareness is trying to compare that and try to see it is working the way you had drawn conclusion or not. I think that should be the good guidance. .(DT) See, the beauty of this. I’d like to add. The beauty of this, you’re simply not trusting your feeling. You’re simply not having a blind faith. You have collected the information. You’ve analyzed. I mean, you’re not making professor, but when you use the word intellectual, you may be thinking some great intellect or something. Maybe not.

0:36:01.3 But enough information. And you’re processing that. And you have drawn conclusion and then that is your guideline. That is the. That is the direction. That is your instruction. That’s your guideline. So, then your awareness is watching whether you are following that or not. The beauty of that is you have gone a step beyond the feeling, and you have gone a step beyond blind faith. You have gone a step beyond 0:36:37.4 (Blank fast?) So, that is the beauty what we could do. Do you see that? (DT) That is the. That. Let me just finish that. Sorry. I got veto power. (laughs) Just joking. Because I’ve got this mike. That’s the reason why, even in meditation, spiritual practice, in meditation, the analytical meditation is important. Because that has edge over. Edge over the concentrated meditation. (DT) It’s like the surgeon has the edge over to the internist. (DT) Just like that. So. Ok. Now, I cut you out. It’s your turn and then Marianne.

0:38:43.6 Audience : (Dutch)

0:39:24.7 Translator: Well, he’s. What he meant was also that if you do something, then afterwards you have a feeling about it. It makes you feel well, or it doesn’t make you feel well. And a lot of people say that they don’t eat meat, because they feel it’s not good. Now, his question is, can you trust that type of feeling. Is there a level in yourself that already knows these things? A knowing level on which you can trust. And which gives you these feelings of doing things or not doing things. Feeling right of wrong about these things.

GR: Human intuition is supposed to be very important. (DT) I don’t know how correct they are. (DT) I believe, it depends on the individual. (DT) But then, by saying that, each and every one of us will think; I’m the correct individual. So. (laughs) (DT) The human intuition has a lot of value. (DT) Whether it’s everything great. I doubt it. (DT) Now it’s your turn. You want to say.

Marianne: I was thinking about the feeling. We have so. I think there are differences between what we mean by feeling. Might not be the right example now. And when you say, analyzing and analytical meditation, I think it’s not completely free of feeling. It’s not analyzing always only in the head. If I ever write, for this analytical meditation on death, I’m not saying here, I know that everybody dies. But I 0:41:31.6 less compete (?) with the feelings to get to know, Oh, I’ve accepted to deaths. Which brings also a kind of feeling with it. So, I just wanted to discuss that it is not feeling, emotional feeling free. But these words, and then you can maybe say experience, but these words are in our language a little bit mixed up.

0:42:00.9 And when you use the word emotion, you have a filling in of that word, which we do not exactly all know and then you’ll get this kind of misunderstandings. But even analytical meditation, feeling. (DT)

GR: Analytical meditations might not be free of emotions or feelings. But the strongest reason in analytical meditation is reasoning. The reasoning have a more power than feeling of the individual. And to check your reasoning is correct or not correct, you check with the statements made by the different teachers who have experience. So, it is confirmation of your reasoning. So. So, in my opinion, the, by analyzing you can get much more confirming than that of simply rely on feeling. But that not necessarily mean it is free of feelings. That ok? Yeah. (DT)

0:45:09.7 And it’s. Look, how beautiful it is. You know? If I’m sitting here and tell you there’s two types of meditation. One is known as analytical meditation. The other is known as concentrated meditation. Analytical meditation provides the material on which you concentrate. And then concentrated meditation concentrates on that. If I tell you that, you are not going to get much anyway. As I said it. But we’re discussing here the wisdom of the people here. The people’s wisdom. Your wisdom. Everybody’s. The peoples’ wisdom here brought it more clear to us. And so, this is a very good thing, you know. And just like to remind that. Appreciates that. (DT) Don’t you agree? (DT) So, this is very important. Now let us move a little bit. A step a little bit to more. Unless you want to say something. Did you raise your hand? Do you want to say something?

Audience: I want to listen first.

GR: What?

Audience: I want to listen first.

GR: You want to listen first. Ok. Let’s move a little bit up .A little bit up now. Let’s. We’re talking about death. The death is such a thing that, whether you like it or not, we all will go through. (DT) No question. We will go through. (DT) You’ll die. I’ll die. The doctors will die. Everybody will die, anyway. So. (laughs) True. (DT) So, then the question is, what happens. What is it? (DT)

0:47:58.6 And I’ll say. I mean, I been saying it. I said, death isn’t discriminating. (DT) Remember we have that detachment yesterday. (DT) Lady here who said detachment. Where? Oh, yes. She’s here. I started looking around where you’re sitting there yesterday. I’m sorry. So. The detachment. The really. The forceful detachment. The forceful detachment is the death. (DT) Death doesn’t wait for anything. (DT) It does wait. We will do everything, whatever we could to wait. (laughs) (DT) So. So, what happened to the individual? (DT) This is a very difficult subject. And very important. We all will go through. (DT) Death of course, is a natural process. (DT) Natural process, because our physical body is unable to, to be host of the mind. (DT) So, the combination of the body mind connection. Are you with me? Body and mind connection. That keeps us alive. (DT)

0:50:55.9 So, when it is detaching, we even detaching, detaching our mind with the body. That is my way of looking. (DT) So, we forcefully leave. (DT) We’ve been kicked out. (DT) So, whether during; whether there is a painful period or not painful period or whatever happens. No matter whatever it may be. They 0:51:39.9 are suffering that. They have pain there. Because it is not so easy. Certain portion of the body can no longer function. Yet, certain portion is not completely detaching. That’s not easy. So, the time of the pulling, the separation, the process itself. Separation. No matter whatever the doctors will tell you. But I’m sure there’s quite a lot of pain. The individual will go through agony, pain and that got to be there because of the separation. You know. If you pull on our finger, or the fingernails, how painful it is. Here we’re pulling off completely. And it needs. It has pain. It has suffering for sure. (DT) And when you think that way, there’s bound to pain. (DT) And also, in the West, the process of the death itself is such a strange thing. People don’t experience much. (DT) What I mean by that, is they simply quickly, the moment the brain dead, the moment they stop breathing. They just simply pack up the body and push it out and wash it out and whatever they do. Paint it. And put in the little thing. There’s not really an experience of death for. I don’t know. The dying person will go. But as far as the living people’s concerned, that’s not so much experience of death at all.

0:54:02.8 There is no. I mean, you don’t really. Many times you don’t even see the dead body. You don’t bring the dead body in home. There’s no smell. There’s nothing, you know. I mean, simply nicely wonderfully packaged and put it out. I mean, that’s my observation. I’m sorry if it is offended somebody. But I. That’s what I see. (DT) It may be a. What? Ok. Well, let me just finish the subject now. We’re changing. So. It may be my opinion. And it may be easy not to handle with the messes that you created. But somehow. I mean, it is made too beautiful. (laughs) You know, too easy to pack. (DT) And very recently I have the experience of Allen Ginsberg dying. (DT) What happened is. I think I mentioned here yesterday. Did I? That he called me and put a report and all this and that. So. So, So, finally, what happened is that Friday morning about seven, seven o’clock I got a call from Allen’s secretary. And saying that he had stroke. I don’t know when he had. Nobody knows when he had because he insisted he wanted to be housed alone and with only Peter. What his name? Orlovsky. He happens to be his lover before and he’s crazy mad .Virtually mad. So, his secretary and everybody was a little concerned with that, but nobody thought; it’s first night, Allen’s going to go. (laughs)

0:57:00.1 Translator: (DT) Yeah. That’s it.

GR: Yeah. And he called me. The secretary called me in the morning. A little after seven. Saying that, Allen. He said, he’s feeling very uneasy in the house. Normally, he come from nine-thirty. So, he said, he came earlier today. And just to see. He said, Allen had stroke. Nobody knows when. And I said, “What is Peter doing?” Peter Orlovsky. He said, “Rimpoche, Peter is buying bicycle.” (laughs) (DT) I mean, he really doesn’t know what’s happening. You know. He doesn’t know what’s happening. (DT) So, anyway. So, then I reached with some former and present Gyuto monks to New York by 5:30. I immediately called Philip. Philip Glass. And Philip said, “I will call there.” I said, “Don’t call. Just go and say your prayers.” (DT) So, by the time when I reached there it’s about 5:30 in the evening. (DT) And he’s in coma. (DT) When I walked in, the house is packed with people. (DT) There are like sixty or seventy people. (DT) And they’re all very. All famous people. All. I mean well known artists, poets and musicians and politicians. Everything’s like this. (DT) I don’t know who bought it, but somebody brought big food down there.

0:59:59.2 So, there’s cheese, biscuit, Chinese food and Western food and it is packed with food on one side. (DT) And there’s tea, coffee, all, orange juice and then all type of different drinks on another side. (DT) And looks like some kind of a festival rather than; rather than somebody’s dying. You know. (DT) So, the moment I walked in. So, they all followed me like this. (laughs) (DT) So, Allen’s on the sick bed. He’s breathing there but going like that. And there’s nothing else. (DT) And then they put a chair there. So, people could turn by try to sit on the chair and hold his hands and talk to him. (laughs) (DT) So, where it’s. It’s really packed with the famous poets. You know, the. What is his name? That crazy guy? Crow. Crowcery. Crow.

Audience: Kerouac?

GR: No. Kerouac’s dead. No. That short guy. Gregory Corso. Gregory Corso was there. The painter. The Italian painter, Francesco Clementi was there. Philip was there. And you name it. I mean, all most well-known. All the poets are there. Known. Known American poets. Almost all there. Except Gary Snyder. And almost every known American poet is there. (DT) And then all the artists there. (DT) and some are with children. All their children together. You know, like in ten years, eleven years and all this. Kids together. (DT) And it’s like festival. (DT) And there’s a doctor there. (DT) A doctor with the white coat and the stethoscope. You know. What do you call? Stethoscope there. And doctor is busy attending the visitors explaining what this illness do.

1:03:04.6 (DT) And he had brought the latest issues on the liver cancer and everything. He said, “I brought the book.” Had the latest book here. Then this does this. He reads to everybody. Explains that. (DT) Ok. Then the moment I got in, everybody followed me. Everybody. I mean, like sixty people behind like that. (DT) Then I said, “Please excuse me. Just get out.” (DT) So, they leave us alone. They sort of went away a little bit. Not on the bed like this. Then they went away a little bit. (DT) I think everybody came to see. The moment I came in it is going to die or what I’m going to do. Or, you know, something, you know. (DT) So, then we said. We prayed. Said the Lama Chopa. Very slowly. Very slowly. (DT) And then we did the Heruka body Mandala. (DT) And his way of breathing changed. (DT) And by about 11:30 at night. 11:30 or 12. Almost 12 at night, then we stopped saying prayers there. (DT) And while saying, while saying the prayer I talked to him a little bit. (DT) But I have no way of confirming he understood me or acknowledgement or nothing. (DT) So, what I did is, I still talked to him continuously the death processes and try to recognize when this comes and that comes and that comes and all that I did that. (DT)

1:06:00.1 Then everybody’s there. Still 11:30 and a lot of people, seventy, eighty people still there. Some are going out. Some are coming in. Some goes home and has to take a shower and comes back, you know. (laughs) All these things going like that. So. (DT) Another very famous poet called Patti Smith. She was there. She had her two, her little daughter with her. And Allen has. The moment you walked in at the left side, Allen has those nude pictures of him and Peter Orlovsky and all this, complete nude pictures there. (DT) And a number of others. Burroughs and maybe about seven or eight man naked there, you know. Pictures. (laughs) (DT) So. Patti Smith might have gone home and brought her daughter in. By the time when I was leaving. 11:30. (DT) Her daughter suddenly saw these nude pictures and she screams, “Mama, Mama, come here.” (laughs) (DT) She’s yelling. You know. Really screaming, “Mama, Mama.” (DT) So, Patti Smith is explaining her daughter, this is natural. This is called openness. And I don’t know whatever she was telling her. (laughs) This not to be shy and not to be 1:08:15.6 (??) or something. She’s talking. (DT) So, all of them. All of those things going on. (DT) At the same time. At the same time those well-known people. They’re picking up certain things out of Allen’s place. They’re picking up some, some book or photo or something. They’re taking.

Translator: Take away.(DT)

1:09:06.2 GR: His secretary was complaining me. And saying, these people have come in big limousines down there, but now they’re taking things away. I can’t stop them. (laughs) (DT) So, later I came to know, what happened is, Peter Orlovsky. He’s crazy, right? He told them, “Take anything you want.” (laughs) (DT) So, Clementi told me. Clementi.

Translator: Clementi

GR: Clementi. Francesco Clementi. Very well-known Italian artist. He told me. He said, Peter called Clementi. Clementi, come here. So, he said, he went there. He said, “Take anything you want. I mean it. Take now.” (laughs) (DT) So, Clementi said, he didn’t take anything. But he might have told everybody. Even so, that’s what people did. (DT) And it is good opportunity for to souvenir or, you know, whatever it is. (laughs) (DT) So, anyway, then I left 11:30 and then Allen died about 2. Just before I. I went back to Philip’s house and went into bed and the moment I slept, put my. Just moment I slept, the telephone rings. So, I thought, yeah. I told them if any change comes, calls me. (DT) So, by the time when I get there, he died already. (DT) Yet, we can still see, his consciousness is in the body. Absolutely clear. (DT) And then we immediately did Vajrayogini self-initiation. (DT)

1:11:56.5 And about 7 or 7:30 in the morning, about that time, there’s nobody in the house. Nobody. All left, somehow. I don’t know why. (DT) 7 or 7:30. (DT) So, that time we did the self-initiation for him. (DT) And then about noon, then we did a lot of different things, prayers, things like that. But about noon, all afternoon. I don’t remember exactly, and Philip was there. And I said, “The consciousness is still in the body.” (DT) And Philip told me, “Even I can figure out that.” (laughs) He said (DT) So, the really what’s happening is, is the internal dissolving system, or whether he’s meditation or whatever it is. I have no way of telling. But my thought is, looks that he is very much focused. That’s now a feeling. My feeling is, looks like that he was very much focused on the Mahamudra. (DT) So, the doctor is still there. The nurses are still there. I mean, they declared; the doctor signed the death certificate. But he’s still there. Because a lot of people’s still coming and going. The doctor still staying there. It is. It is big well-known doctor in the next door hospital. But he stayed the whole day there. You know. (DT) In the meanwhile, the arrangements by the funeral home people are calling in and saying, “Should we take it, should we take it?” So, I said earlier, “Maybe about 5” (DT) That’s it. And when I said 5, about that time, the funeral home people came in and looked at us and, “No. The consciousness still there.” Then Philip said, “Even I can figure out he’s still there.” That’s what it is. (DT)Rimpoche:….

1:15:06.8 Then we said, “8.” (DT) Even at eight o’clock, he’s still there. Then ten. (DT) By that time, the secretary told me, he made it twelve. (DT) So, about 11:30 at night. 11:30 at night, his consciousness actually departed, departed with the body. (DT) The most vivid way of looking it. You know, his body is like this. The whole day. Like this, all day. And about 11:30, he had stopped completely down. (DT) BRobert: Long hair

Lama Pema: Yeah

Robert: Long sadhu hair.

Rimpoche: ..

Lama Pema: …Genuine.

Rimpoche:

(Hmm. Otherwise, I’ll fall asleep. When Tibetan tells a story, you don’t tell a story in daylight. You know, like, the light on. You have no books, nothing. You all sleep and mother has to tell story and children has to say in the dark, hmm peewr. Kind of say. The biggest

Robert: You lure to sleep by pretending to go ho hum.

Lama Pema: it’s still. So, the mother will know whether you are actually sleeping or still listening.

Robert: Otherwise

Lama Pema: So, the. He. The. So, that what actually decided all this, when he debated and he became first teacher who actually are exposed to the other Buddhist system belief. And then come in contact and debated and defeated in an open, open tournament. So, it is again for the Tibetan history something to noted. You know, to think about it. In India a lot of thing happen like that. You know, Indian Buddhist debating Buddhism and the winning and so forth.

0:03:00.5 So, his fame actually spread all over India, Tibet and the Chinese, China. The then China, who was recently ruled by the Mongol China. Respect all over So, the. So, the. It was the same time when Tibet after the king Langdarma’s death, until Sapan’s time, as I said earlier, Tibet is kind of interspersed. Has no central rule. No central thing to look for. Everybody’s sort oflike, having a small like curtain(?) states of united. Something like that. It’s kind of like that. So, the. It was for the Tibetans, it was Sapan’s great name, greased. While we call, actually Sapan’s great compassion. His far. That really helped save the Tibetans to, from that time until now, 1959 to come into this kind of integrated, kind of Tibet as overall thing. That’s how I should say it. If I’m wrong you have to forgive.

Robert:……

Lama Pema: It’s my perception, now. Doesn’t mean anything. And it is it is not because it is warfare, fighting war for anything. Nothing. It’s just the learning. This inner sage/search?. That really saved. Just as you have, what do you call? Maybe it is difficult to understand. Like the, when Milton wrote a poem, he saved the country from the war. Do you know that story? Something like that. Of course, totally different way of looking at it. But something like, this one person saved the whole Tibet from the destruction and later what Tibet actually came to be, integral Tibet. Our eng political upheaval or you know, attempt to rule one another. The Sapan, Mongols, Genghis Khan, actually ruled the China, and actually took over Tibet. Just a few wars and Tibet just simply said yes. And started giving the, what do you call it, tributary? Tributes.

Robert: tributes

Lama Pema: tributes. Yeah. After the Genghis Khan death, Tibet stopped paying it. So, they thought they were free, now since he is dead. So, Genghis Khan’s son, actually Godan is aneckan grandson. Godan. He sent lute army into Tibet and he actually again, came up and killed thousands of monks, burned hundreds of monasteries, and came all the way up to the center of Tibet. So, there was a time when Godan was very much need, for many needs. One need; he wasn’t in need of power anymore from Tibet. He don’t need any wealth, anymore. Because Tibet doesn’t look anyway like you could get anything out of that.

0:06:09.6 But actually what you are looking for is an enlightened teacher. He was looking for that. He sent his minister called, Dorta and Leje. The two minister to look, what is there in Tibet you can find it. And look whether you can find a great teacher, because I need that. So, they looked around and they saw different traditions, like Drikungpa and Kadampa and so forth. And all the teacher, at that time is the greatest teacher seems to be the Sakya Pandita. So, and then the, what do you call. I want to read the, what do you call, the story, the invitation. Basically, it was a. It wasn’t quite an invitation, but the. The. It’s a kind of a. Well, since you will never have time to look at those histories, but this is time, just hear something about it. It will be nice. So, he sent an invitation, saying, “I, the most powerful perse perse King Godan wishing for Sakya Pandita Kunga Gyaltsen. That we need a lama to advise my ignorant people on how to conduct themselves, morally and spiritually. I need someone to pray for the welfare for my deceased parents.” That was another reason. “To whom I am deeply grateful. I have been pondering this problem for some time and after much consideration, I have decided that you are the only person suitable for the task. As you are the only lama I have chosen, I will not accept any excuse on account of your age.” Because Sapan is very old at that time, over sixty years old. Over sixty years. “Or the vigors of the journey. The Lord Buddha gave his life for all living beings.” Here he’s cause. He’s already learned because China at that time is, I think, half the world at that time is Buddhist. Do you know that time? Because almost all China is Buddhist. So, he knows all about the Buddha’s teaching. All he needs is a teacher, actually a teacher. “Lord Buddha gave his life for all living beings. Would you not therefore,, be denying your faith if you try to avoid this duty of yours? It would of course be easy for me to send a large body of troops to bring you here. But in so doing harm and unhappiness ;might be brought to many units and living beings. In the interest of Buddhist faith and welfare of all living beings, creatures, I suggest that you come to us immediately.” (laughter)

0:08:50.6 The. The. That’s the thing and then later on the actually the story runs. How you know, Sapan has to write lot of letters because Tibetans need him much back in Tibet. And he wrote a letter to Kadampa, one of the Kadampas students called Kadampa 0:09:04.7Namkha Drak/Bum(?) This Kadampa 0:09:06.8 Namkha Drak(?) for scholar is useful is one of Kadampa school and become the very much student of Sapan and later on is a student; became a great teacher. So, he wrote these to, as answers to certain letters to Namkha Drak. He said, “These Mongols have told me that you must at any rate come to be our religious teacher and if you will not come, there will be war. Therefore it is better that I go with them, for fear that Tibet would suffer if war break out. I have no more than a hope that, that will bring, that will be benefited by my doing. Yet I have no certainty it will be so. Nonetheless, I know I can give my body in life if that will bring benefit for living beings.” Now, to the Buddhist, that is, more than anything else, if a person can give up one’s body for sentient beings, then that is actually shows when you attain the stage called bodhisattva bhumi. The actual intentional, of thoughtful meaningful giving only is the sign. You can read the Ahisamayalankara. You know, how you, when you reach the such and such state, what is your outward sign of inward experience. That is exactly when you receive such and such. So, that actually shows, he’s the great enlightened teacher. Now, so, Sapan went to India, went to Mongol China, up to all the way down to the placed called Liangzhou/Lingchu? Len chow? How do you pronounce?

Robert: Leng cho

(insert time here) Lama Pema: Len chow. And he took, actually, three actual almost three years to get there. The what, passing through the Lhasa, Samye Monastery, and basically Sapan’s teaching headquarter, later Lingchu and previously sachu? And the Samye in the Lhasa. These are the three places of his major teaching places. So, in Samye, he basically, what do you call, renovated the kind of dilapidated Samye Monastery. And painted the monastery. He even created a famous painting called 0:11:24.7 Dom Sum Tenba(?) Dom Sum Tanba. That year. Of all the Tibetan, what do you call it? Of all the Tibetan style of painting, the when you see the sword, you know, basically you can guess, you know. Roughly you guess this is; this original painting comes from this very famous painting there. He painted in the walls of Samye Monastery and put the, wrote a poem about it. And you can still look at it. You can see every now and them. You can come across Tibetan book or many translated books. So, he passed through the Samye and that is where, actually, the, his nephew who is ten years old, called Phagpa became ordained in Samye Monastery. So, when he went to, finally we see, landed in China in Liangzhou, he was then led by the Godan, who was just enthroned as the king. And they, they both turned cloth,we call fen la, the fen means the chieftain or king or whatever. La means the teacher. For the teacher, what we call, later, what you call in the Western term, Priest, patron top type of thing. They met. And there actually, Sapan’s great impact on their lives was, what do you call? The, when he started teaching and introducing the Tibetan Vajrayana teaching for the first time. First, initiating the king himself. So, those are the time. It is a little bit, not too widely known in the general folks. But usually, you know, like anything else, the chieftains, the teacher; actually owns the teacher. You know, once he invites. So. So, again, the tantric Buddhism is especially difficult to develop, because teaching only can be given for twenty-five students. So, he limit yourself and you can’t reach. So, the; he taught and another thing, a significant thing that Sapan did directly to the Godan is because one of the reasons Godan, actually, his mundane reason was to heal him from this, what do you call? He suffering from leper, leprosy, and Sapan actually, through the, 0:13:42.5( mantra path Maitripa (singhanada)?), healed this leprosy at that time. So, the king gained a lot of path and very much devoted to the Buddhism. There is more of an esoteric aspect of the story; inner story usually gets by scholars and Tibetan delivers that actually was the; since king is Buddhist, he need a great Buddhist teacher to actually, to solve the problem that they are having at that time, between the Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. That is supposed to be. Some scholar thinks that way. Maybe wrong. Maybe just their supposition. Half heard issues. But that is one of the reasons because, the name that reach China is primarily not just the word of the messenger told him, but because this famous name, when he debated Indian logicians and teacher. Respectfrom what do you call it? gabbyhor. Tibet; hor means Mongol and then China. So sort of everybody sort of knew like we know right now the, you know, like, what do you call it, nuclear war, something. We know. We know all about it. At that time.

0:14:57.7 That is another reason, he was looking for spiritual teacher who can actually solve the problem there, but unfortunately Sapan lived only for six years or something. He didn’t live much in China. There was a repeated request by the Tibetan. And he wrote repeated letters, such as a letter to the Tibetans and all. And letter to my students. A letter to such and such. A letter to answer to the prince. A letter. So, in these collection of works, you can read all kinds of letters. The. In his collection of works, you can find. Usually connect with the spiritual work. Basically Sapan on the other hand is very much help in the most spiritual method to protect the Tibetan from the destruction. So, they have their own independence in their own way. And basically, pleasing, taking care of the king, by his own spiritual power. That is how the first time the priest as king was actually coming up at that time. And we know our present king and teacher and leader, His Holiness Dalai Lama. It’s a similar, similar form. Just the same thing. These are the, what do you call, the original, the earliest form of the priest king, that happened to be. The. So, Sapan actually wrote over hundred and forty works, dependent on different lengths. The famous are the thing called, the Dom Sum. The Treasury. Now the Legs Shad is the kind of go collection of elegant saying. This is the mark of all the Tibetans, even now. It is so widely spoken, world renowned. And all other books, basically the writing is esoteric. The Vajrayana form of Buddhism which doesn’t make sense to you right now. And the. The one of the most contribution that he gave in the form of writing and studying is this called: Mams Jug. How do you call Mams Jug? Lexicon.

Robert: Mams Jug, the

Lama Pema: How do you say in English.

Robert: Lexicon. Encyclopedia.

Lama Pema: Yeah. Encyclopedia, which doesn’t exist. And he started writing. Translating for the first time, for the what do you call? Poetry from India to Tibet. Sanskrit in Tibet. Which later became the authoritative text written by the Gundee. The poet in India. And he started studying it. He wrote drama. He wrote all kinds of, in other words, I told you before.

0:17:41.9 So, one of the most important thing he wrote is, in the later part of his, later few days of his life, which had extended over two years, in China, he wrote the thing called the letter to do, letter to all the Tibetans, he wrote. And then the religious text called, Sage’s Intent. Means the teaching, summarizing all Buddha’s teaching. Giving the title, it’s what Buddha intend to teach, you know. It’s called Sage’s Intent. He’s saying these two books and basically he, in those letters, he really said, he’s unable to come back to Tibet. He basically gave up that he is going to live forever, the rest of his life, no matter how he’s living. And that became legacy as he kind of lost whatever, the things to give back to the Tibet. So, over that years, I’m telling this story just to kind of give you a kind of basis, a conception, a kind of person; a teacher. Not to, I’m not digging how great he is, how smart. I’m not digging part. You are the one who is going to judge, if you want to study further. Now, those are the days. Actually, of Kublai Khan, the great king. Maybe you have book, you have the book specific. Kublai Khan is the another king new to the Godan. I think he is successor, yes?

Robert: Yes

Lama Pema: The. He actually definitely want Sapan to come back to his place, by the time Sapan passed away. So, Godan also died at the same time. Same. Basically the same year. But what left behind, this is the Phagpa. In China, Chinese call fossil. Phagpa. His original name’s Chogyal Phagpa. Means the dharma king. Dharma King. Do you see this? The original first word, Dharma King. The Dharma King, Chogyal Phagpa is only nineteen years old. He’s a kid. Right? From the teen years. And the. But he. Because he’s learning, he’s scholar. Because he’s great sage himself. He actually learn all he needs to learn from Sakya Pandita. And Sakya Pandita finally said, “You have learned everything that I have to teach you. Now I’m giving you my dharma heir, as my dharma heir.” So, he give his gold status of Buddha and a conch shell as a kind of, whatever, that’s the tradition to do, the teacher to give student.

0:20:23.0 So, the Phagpa who’s only nineteen year old, took over the charge to actusfsf, to as the religious heir to Sapan and this Phagpa, who is nineteen year old, actually influenced the king so much, turned then into Vajrayana Buddhist, gave the initiation and he’s the one first to conquer. Basically, through the spiritual power, to Tibet, back to Tibet himself, without even killing one person. And he gave Tibet back to Tibet itself. In other words, as a token of the offering, of the gift, to the dharma gift that Phagpa gave to Kublai Khan. Kublai Khan gave him back Tibet to these, what do you call? To this great teacher. Later he also gave him Imperial Preceptor as the title. They call it 0:21:16.1 Guoshi(?) in China, which king, teacher or something. So, this Phagpa became very instrumental for the Kublai Khan’s purpose. Because Phagpa, actually, for the rest of his life, except for almost about eight years of his life, he actually spend most of life, (eighteen years in Tibet, probably, all in all) in China. So, the. Of course that means he had already mastered the Chinese language by now. So, he is the one who is about at that time, about twenty-seven or something, or twenty-nine, who actually resolved the. Who actually participated in the debate between the two hundred Buddhists, two hundred Taoist, two hundred Confucians, in the place called 0:22:13.9 (????) (Kaiping???) I don’t know much about it. locality called Karakrum. And he’s the, a kind of, the hero of that debate and basically defeated the, what do you call? Taoist beliefs of certain things. Here it says something or other. He. The. The. In other words, there was a strong belief within the Taoist that even actually proved that how the text go here ching which translate as conversion of the Taoism, that it is false. The only text that is true, actually true is the what do you call it? The other I Ching. I think I ching is the only text that is the right thing. In other words, he actually took over this kind of same thing that Sapan, his uncle actually took in it’s, in Tibet.

0:23:19.7 Not only that, there are different problems with different scholars. Some say Sapan. Some say Phagpa. But one way another, one of the teacher actually devised for the first time a script for Mongolian to facilitate this existing colloquial language to translate entire Buddhist canon into that language. And he, he invented a script called phags-pa script in the letter, his name. And that is the very much look like Tibetan. You can see, if you find a book. The. And. And through his inspiration, the Mongolians really undertook to actually translate the Buddhist canon. And that didn’t took more than three, thirty years or something. It was translated back in Tibet, in Mongolian. So, the basically, Phagpa is the one who, who regained this Tibet back to the Tibetans, themselves. So, all this teacher, I’m not going to list other teachers that we have in our texts. The letter teachers. So, in other words, the power and the realization, the understanding of those great teachers is actually what they call the study and the practice of this specific cycle of the tantra called the Hevajra. And that is the cycle of tantra, which the overall corpus of Lamdre, is actually explain it. And that is still taught and we still have this lineage. You don’t have to worry that its scattered away some more time. It is still alive. You know, you want a love them, you can cuddle them. You know, you can adopt them neither. Whatever you want. It’s still taught in a living tradition. And the, this is the, that same power, that actually got these teachers enlightened and these beings benefited and liberated. And these Tibetan people who enjoy the lasting peace for several centuries, such as these teachings. So, to the others; other religious system, you have teaching called Lam Rim. To the Gelugpa system, you have Lam Rim .To the Kagyu system you have this called the Six Yogas of Naropa. You know, doesn’t mean anything different, but a special kind of, each carrying their own kind of certain aspect of Buddhism as whole. And to the Nyingmapa, you know, the Dzogpa Chenpo, the great compassion and so forth. This. So, this is actually. How much time do we have?

Robert: 0:26:05.8 (Tibetan: rt and lp)

0:26:31.0 Lama Pema: So, the. So, the Lamdre system as the, what do you call? That is what has been practiced. And if you want to study, you can study now. In writing the preliminary books, reading the books, studying under the teachers of your own way. And so forth. But the. As the main style, the whole thing is the tantric system, based on the Hevajra tantra. Is the little bit successful because, by, because its nature of secrecy. That’s the only problem for the public has it. So, you have to give up lot to finally come to this point. You know. Even your ideas, even yourself, any, everything. You basically make yourself non-being and make a being out of that. The. The. So, this Lamdre system is actually again, same thing. Has been preserved, practiced, by the same Khon family. Same Khon family. So, the same Khon family. One of the interesting things to me. I don’t know for you. This. We have a definite record of these, how many years? Of about twelve hundred years, this family lineage. A direct lineage. One after another. That is something. You know, if nothing else. And the, and still exists. The Khon family still exists in the form of the emanation of Manjushri. His Holiness Sakya Trizin in India, Present head of Sakya family; Sakya tradition school and both. Another branch of family lives in Seattle, called 0:28:16.1 Dagchen Rimpoche. Same thing. And they are the one who holds this, this Lamdre system and who teaches. But that doesn’t mean that other teacher, so far doesn’t have any responsibility or have no share or something. Doesn’t mean. But this family took over, like you took over certain children to adopt and save life. In same way, this family actually took over sometime as the king, sometime as priest, sometime as landlords, sometime as chieftains. Basically whatever form they are took over the place of Sakya and preserved to the Lamdre system there. And basically taught in Tibet, these three great places. Which later the Sakya school developed itself. The three school called: Ngor school. Most of the painting you saw, very much ecause we’d been looking. Really looked, 11:20, 11:25 looked. And it was still up. 11:30 it was out. He looked. Suddenly, it’s out. And it looked at clock. It’s 11:30. (DT) And so, by that time, immediately, this all completely dry. (DT) And these things goes in. (DT) Temples. There’s two additional holes are there too. I don’t know what it is, but. (Laughs) (DT) And also the color changes very quickly. You can really see it changing, the color. It’s no longer, that shiny human face left. (DT). It’s become gray. (DT) And the hands also become like ash. (DT) These things did not happen until after 11:30 at night. So, then we said. I told the secretary, “Now, it’s you .Do whatever you have to do.” (DT) I could do that because Allen; One. Happens to be famous person. The doctor and everybody’s cooperating.

1:18:00.9 And two, he had told his secretary, don’t do anything. Follow exactly whatever instructions that I give. (DT) So, they had a special arrangement with the police as well as everything, so they could keep there. (DT) Then the whole day, the newspaper people and the television people packed outside the door. Nobody is allowed in. (laughs) (DT) Everybody. All the different channels. BBC. The Japanese television. They are all waiting out there. Just outside. (DT) Anybody going in, they will chase Anybody getting out, they will chase.

Translator: What?

GR: They chasing people around. Anybody comes in, they will chase. Anybody goes out, they chase. (DT) So, that is what; how it happened. (DT) So, there are a period of unconsciousness. (DT) And I’m sure you don’t have pain, but I don’t think you are aware of what’s going on. (DT) Oh. Thank you. So. So, you don’t, perhaps you are not. You don’t have awareness. (DT) And many of us have the experience of going through anesthesia. (DT) Yeah. When you go under anesthesia, you go, zoom. Right? (DT) You don’t know anything. (DT) So, that probably must be the period like that. (DT) There are people who die with a certain awareness, exactly what’s happening with the process. (DT) There are people who died without awareness. (DT) But the process definitely take place. (DT) Because the process is the way of separating the consciousness and the body. (DT)

1:21:09.7 So, the question now what we have is, not so much of the death itself. What happens thereafter? (DT) [Oh. Thank you.] And that is the biggest question we have concerned. (DT) So, that is the unknown. (DT) I don’t think people are afraid of dying. Or death stage. (DT) But it’s the fear of unknown. (DT) So, I think for us, whether we believe Buddha’s teachings or not. But awareness of what happens thereafter. And that awareness, we must have it. (DT) I’m not asking, by what the Buddha tells you. What Buddha tells you. (DT) But I am telling you, the Buddhism and that of Tibetan Buddhism carries a tremendous amount of information on that. (DT) I mean, for example I never heard the terminology anybody’s using, bardo. Except the Tibetan Buddhism. (DT) So, everybody is talking about bardo now. (DT) I think in Mexico, there is a restaurant called bardo. (DT) Ok. I must let you, what you wanted to say. I’m sorry. (DT)

Audience: (Dutch)

1:24:35.5 Translator: She notices that a lot of people are very much afraid of death. And that may give a lot of problems. That even people who have been friends all of their life, then they become lonely. They lose contact, when one of them is dying. And she also notices her own fear of death and now the question is, “Why are we so afraid?”

GR: I think the fear of unknown. Which I have said earlier. Not dying itself, process. But it is unknown. We think this way. It’s also disconnected. You don’t see, what you see today, you don’t see tomorrow. You don’t recognize each other. You don’t see your friends anymore. Even you see them, they don’t see you . You know what I mean? Big detachment. It is the biggest total of one life. It is the big total. You know. Ching, ching, ching, ching and bring! Zrrr. That goes. You know. That is the big total. So, biggest detachment. And then unknown. These are the reasons why people are afraid. (DT) Right? (DT) Right or wrong? Huh? What did you say?

Audience: I think so.

GR: Yeah. There’s more. There’s much more than that. (DT) There’s much more too, than this. But let us stop for a while because, you’ve got to have your own.

Translator: Bardo

1:27:09.2 Huh?

Audience: She said bardo.

GR: What does that mean?

Translator: We’ve got to have a little bardo. Break.

GR: I don’t know how long the break is. Little Bit. (break) One thing to 1:27:26.3 understand (?). We’ve been talking about the death and dying and use Allen Ginsberg as an example. And that’s because Allen just died very recently. And so, that was the reason, even that happens. It’s happened. That’s why I used that as an example. I’m not trying to use the, again, you know, the names of the celebrities and tried to show this, you know, big celebrities here and there. Try to parade. In case, you people have misunderstand. You never know. People’s thoughts are people’s thoughts. Everybody will think differently. So. That’s not the point. The point what I am raising is, that is the latest incident happened to be, in my life of dying. That’s why I used it. (DT) In other words, I’m not parading the celebrities here. (laughs) I’m not bringing their names just to. (DT) Ok. Now it’s your turn. Go ahead.

Audience: I have two questions.

GR: Yes

Audience: First you said, then I soon see something about if it’s in Buddhism and salvation or I read books. Well, I see a 1:29:38.3 round (?) of monks singing or praying. And my question is, “Where are women? When are they coming?” Is it a man’s business and 1:29:38.3 how (??). It’s my first question. And my second question is, “This morning I met a lot of fun and I experienced (?) humor by listening to you and seeing you, I felt very good.” When I’m at home I very often miss the tv, of my work, my business and my worries and so on. So, what are you doing? How are you (??) I keep experiencing this humor even when things are, things happening with ourselves and so forth. Do you understand? (DT) (laughs)