Archive Result

Teacher – Student Relationship NL 1997

19970507GRJHNLTS02

0:00:05.1

GR: We came to sort of a conclusion that we’re looking as a perfection, status of the perfection as one that is free of pains and fear and that’s what we’re looking at. Anybody disagree with that?

0:00:55.5

GR:

Because how we pooled the ideas together and I think that was the concerns that we have , is that right? Or is that not right? I mean many of you have given thoughts and in those thoughts don’t we sort of concerned in that? Right? You did give your ides, you did and you did and you did. You wanted to say something-

0:02:42.5

T: When you mentioned this morning about fears for future lives he wondered if that was only for people who believe in future lives or not?

0:02:59.4

GR: Very good thought, you’re right. I brought up the future life because I’m so used to it.

0:03:15.1

A: And I was wondering if maybe rejecting, is that a word? Future life control out of fearful?

0:03:39.6

GR: If that’s so if that’s so it is very easy. To stop the future life fear because then simply don’t believe it. Human mind is such a funny thing, you know? If you are told, if we suggest to you, if you’re told not to believe in future life you’ll be wondering whether there is or not if so am I doing a disservice for me or not? And that is true. Human life is so curious they would like to do something else, right? I don’t know how to answer your question but my understanding is , my understanding is just by not believing in future life cannot stop our fears.

0:05:50.0

A: I was thinking about it and I think that most major religions do believe in a future life but not in a reincarnated form, not in flesh.

GR: You’re right.

A: Almost all of them believe in a future life; in the Valhalla, in the heavens in the eternal hunting grounds…

0:06:16.0

GR: Either the right or the wrong side, somewhere, right?

A: Yes, that’s maybe something to do with my question because I was wondering if this fear you mentioned was something which is basic in human beings or if it was brought in because you mentioned future lives within so that the fear which has no point to look for goes on that?

0:07:03.9

GR: I understand your question perfectly, I mean your doubts perfectly. Thoughts.

A: So my question is is this fear something like instinct?

GR: Instinct, that’s the word you’re looking for.

0:08:13.3

GR: His question in English is clear, he is saying, I mean at least to me he is saying is this fear come because of the instinct in the future life. Is it your instinct. What do you call it?

T: Do you know by instinct that you have a future life and are afraid?

GR: No. No, no, no. The word what he’s using is, you raised this thought because you have you’ve been through the past life and you will go through future life, that’s why it’s your instinct. It’s not, do you get that idea? Because you have experienced and you’re bound to have it. It’s called in- what is it?

A: Intuition.

GR: Not even intuition, it is…

A: I used instinct.

GR: Yes, instinct. That’s right, that’s the word. Instinct. Because animals have instinct so yes, we have a natural instinct, that’s the word. It doesn’t mean because of the belief it means you’ve been through it, you naturally have it. That’s what the word instinct should give you right? Because animals naturally know.

0:10:07.5

GR: And that I’ve been trying to say it in the morning. It is because I’ve been saying it because we lost so much things we lost so many times and we do have that fear. Didn’t I say that earlier. So I didn’t use the words it is our instinct, natural, that’s the word I believe, instinctive nature.

GR: Instinctive nature. If Allen was here he will give the correct word but he’s not. So instinctive nature like the animals have. The skunk have the ready and whenever there’s a threat he knows how to skunk. And that’s the instinctive nature you know the horses will kick you out and the buffalo will charge, the dog will bite you, it is the human, no the animal instinctive nature.

0:11:54.2

A: I don’t know if I understand you now. Do you mean that we have instinct that there are more lives after this life? Because I know for instance maybe my parents they know exactly there’s only one life and then you go to heaven. They don’t have that instinct I suppose.

0:12:23.9

GR: They don’t have instinctive clear knowledge, they don’t have clear knowledge of, we don’t have a clear knowledge of, don’t say they let’s say us, we, we don’t have clear knowledge of what’s going to happen when we die, what’s happened thereafdter, ok? We would like to believe that we will go to heaven and have a pinic for an infiniyte time. We’d like to believe that. Is it true?

No listen, let me finish. We’d like to believe that but on the other hand simultaneously our natural human feelings or whatever we’re using the word instinctive nature that comes up of fear, afraid and after all we all many of us are afraid of dying. You don’t want to think about it because you say oh don’t think about it, it’s bad, makes you afraid makes you crazy, don’t think about it, people say that, right? And why are we afraid of dying? If we’re sure we’re going to go for a picnic why afraid? Right? Why afraid? The body that we have in the morning of an old man, all sorts of qualities that you have will be able to change into youthful young beautiful handsome in the evening and have beautiful picnic, then why do we worry? But we’d like to believe it but we’re not sure. And why we’re not sure? One, we don’t have scientific proof. Two we have another instinct tells you hey there’s something else than that and that’s because the fear comes up because of al sorts of things comes up I mean normal western language you should have dismissed this or it’s nature of human life we would have dismissed that in normal western language.

0:15:14.7

But we can not. We cannot, why? Because it bothers us. It bothers us, it bothers you it bothers me it bothers all of us. We will fight. We keep on fighting in our life to our discomfort. Mental discomfort, physical discomfort whatever the capacity you have we’ll be struggling with that. We struggle in that with the help of a therapist, with the help of doctors with the help of religion with the help of whatever you can get and until we become crooked ourselves physically we keep on fighting it. That’s because we will like to believe in one way but our natural instincts tells us that’s another thing. That’s what we do. That’s where we all fight for.

0:16:19.9

If there’s nothing, that’s a very good question. I’m sorry, yes, yes. (Dutch translation)

0:17:57.7

And also her comment, this is absolutely true. And some people are afraid of a void, it is completely, she says if there’s nothing. Then there’s the fear of getting lost completely.

0:18:28.2

And this is absolutely true that is another fear we have. I have a lot of comments on that but I’ll reserve it for later.

0:19:17.0

Translator- She says well maybe the point is that we have to accept this uncertainty. The uncertainty that we do not know what will happen, that there might be nothing at all and that there might be continuation. Maybe that’s the point.

0:19:34.2

GR - That is the point.

0:20:44.7

She says in a certain state you may believe that there is a heaven and an eternal picnic and then in another stage you may believe that there are future lives in which you have to learn all sorts of things one after another. The she says well it’s a matter of belief. There is no way of saying this is it, and it’s not that.

0:21:09.1

You’re right. But on the other hand, you know its very funny. Funny in the sense if there is nothing then there’s no quarrel, there’s nothing.

0:21:44.4

But if there’s a heaven then there should be hell. You know we’d like to have all the good ones. We’d like to believe there’s a heaven and we don’t want to believe there’s a hell because it’s terrible.

Hell, heaven and earth go together. It really goes together. And if there is a hell there should be a heaven and if there’s a heaven there should be hell. And logically speaking believing theres a heaven and believing theres no hell doesn’t work. Just doesn’t make sense. If there is a heaven there should be hell. Ah, very interesting, why?. She says why. This is a very interesting question. I don’t want to say why not which is very easy for me to say. But I don’t want to say that. What makes you think there is hell or heaven?

0:23:35.3

Right, you learn it, you feel it there are all sorts of reasons. You learn it you feel it and you’re taught and you have heard yes that’s true. You have heard the information. If you’ve never heard of hell or heaven you never think hell or heaven. You can’t deny that lady. And since you have learned, you were taught, you feel it, the heaven you’ll also feel, some people feel hell, too. There are a number of people who express I’m in a human land, a human being experiencing hell realm. Because they feel it. That’s why. Now I’d like to I don’t want to get into argument because if we argue there’s no end because no one can settle it either this way or that way because for 2,500 years they’re unable to settle it, we don’t expect to settle it in three days.

0:25:35.1

But it raises the consideration. It raises that we should think. And that’s what it is. Awareness. That’s what we need. The lack of awareness is a problem for us. Ok, so with this I still like to go through that Foundation of All Perfections. I don’t think we have to settle one perfection as only one, this one. A number of people have expressed a lot of different perfections. And all of those ideas they you give will fit into my Buddhist background. It fits. You know in Buddhism, no I’m talking about Buddhist doctrine, ok? And when you look at it they give you all variety of different levels of the perfections. Number one, the first , almost all they call it enlightenment. The definition that you gave earlier, everything is perfect, free, functioning effortlessly, free of all blocks and effortlessly able to function. Knowing everything. So that is the Buddhist definition of a Buddha, definition of Buddhahood. So the Buddha said that is the best that you can achieve. So Buddha introduced that as the number one goal for spiritual achievement. So when we say when I say all perfections, I look at that level. Then can everybody get to that place? Maybe, they say yes. But are we going to get up there? I don’t know. If you don’t then they give a number of different levels underneath that. Yes really. In Buddhism this is the eleventh stage. And below that ten different stages. And that’s called stage number one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten and eleven, Buddha stage.

0:30:02.4

So even if you don’t get up there on the top you may be able to get half way through. Or you may get through different levels. Even through the level one. So like that they will, Buddhists have that. They introduced that. And the way they introduced, when Buddha introduced, it’s not that Buddha sits there and say well there’s a thing called level one, there’s a thing called level two, there’s a thing called level three. Buddha did not introduce that way. It’s like this, we talking together. Then people express their thoughts and ideas and label what they do, what they achieved. Then Buddha said, “ah, you’re in level number one, you’re in catagoring two, you’re in three and you are in four,” that is how it came. So then people moved from one level to another level. So that’s why we say it’s a very practical level rather than a theoretical level. So what does this number one come, stage one come from? How does one get to the stage one? That is the expression by this gentlemen made earlier in the morning. Knowing every true reality as it is. Didn’t you say that? Right?

0:32:39.1

So we call that the path of seeing. And seeing what? Seeing the reality. So that is only level one for Buddha. And when they’re talking and the person who can really see the true reality what it is and when expressing it, oh now you’ve reached to category one. Now are we over there? I don’t think so. At least not me. No there.

0:33:34.1

Audience: A long way to go.

0:33:35.4

GR: Might not be that long way to go as you think. Might not be that long away. It’s funny. It’s funny, you don’t know, really. Sometimes it looks very far away but suddenly you realize you’re there! That is the surprise we’d like. So now what happens is maybe I may share with you since we’re talking the Foundation of Perfections, now what happens is even on that level or almost similar to that level didn’t somebody say free of pains? Who was it, You? Thank you. Free of pain, totally free of fear of getting hurt yourself, and free of pain comes almost at that level. Are you with me? So therefor your instinctive thought of perfection fits here. So in order to get to that level in order to get to that level you must know that you are capable of doing it. You’re capable of doing it from your body’s point of view and from your mind point of view. And there you need self confidence. So your interpretation works well there. Yet along with that her remarks of wisdom is necessary. So what Buddha tells us if you don’t have self-confidence you won’t make it. If you have self confidence without wisdom you’re in trouble. You know why? If you don’t have the wisdom then you have ignorance. Wisdom and ignorance goes together because it’s like a seesaw, if you have one you don’t have the other if you have the other you have the other it works that way. The self confidence without wisdom perhaps we can call (arrogance) Not only arrogance. Arrogance is different. I think it is sort of stupid stubbornness, a little more than that. Stupid because there is no valid reason of you’re point. No valid reason, doesn’t make sense to anybody else except me. So it is stupid statement. You know why? People can call people stupid because the statement that you make or things that you say which only make sense to you and nobody else, that is the clear sign of being stupid. Really, believe it. If it is an intelligent one, a lot of people have intelligence capacity if not one the others will pick up, they’ll say yes it’s a good idea they’ll say.

0:39:11.1

And when everybody else thinks its not a good idea that means it a sign of being stupid. If you still insist on that on top of that if you still insist then what’s happening? I don’t want to listen to anybody else. Then it becomes more, what? Very big headed, yes. (Audience: a very closed mind) I don’t think so, I think you’re very liberal for that. You have to be more harsh on that. (Audience: Finally you’ll lose your self confidence.) No you don’t The point is when you prove that yourself has been stupid and cannot make a judgement, you still cannot make it and that further proves that you are really stupid and stubborn. And it reinforces your stupidness and stubbornness. And when youre able to realize everybody thinks its not a good idea but still you think it’s a good idea then you’ll be able to adapt and change, that becomes and intelligent person even though you may have a lot of stupid ideas but you have the capability of adapting. What happened? Why are you laughing? Did I say something wrong?

0:40:59.5

Translator: Well I mentioned the kind of person you are describing,

GR: No I’m not! Honestly I’m speaking in general. But its good to know so that if you’re in that category and that is the key for you to change. So I’m providing again the same mirror. So the self confidence with the wisdom is the method for us to achieve our goal. Over self confidence with ignorance is obstacle. Don’t you agree? Keep on thinking, really true.

A: but you can also have wisdom without self-confidence

GR: Possible. You know what the wisdom does? Wisdom really gives you, you know it. You know what you’re saying. Still you’ll adapt with the other person, what they wanted, you go along with that. Not because you’re not knowing but respect to the other persons so you go along with that. Its not that the person doesnt have self confidence but the person adapts, sort of an adaptation because of respect to the other person. I don’t think that person with wisdom, I don’t think they lose the self-confidence. These are my thoughts I don’t have any proof but when you look at it you’ll see that way. You know it, that’s not the right thing to do however you’ll submit to the pressure of the other person or respect to the other person or you go accordingly. That doesn’t mean you don’t have self-confidence but you sort of let it go.

0:44:33.0

So the Foundation of Perfection whatever that is becomes a different variety of level. So when we look at ourselves as a practitioner coming in and trying to work for the level whatever we need we have to aim to that. Alright, the first word here, following the kind master, foundation of all perfections is the root and the basis of the path. That’s all I have, can I borrow yours? I believe this is written by Tsongkhapa somewhere in thirteen hundreds somewhere. And it is the essence of a lot of Buddha’s message put together. And it is very practical today. I mean it’s absolutely practical today. You know what I see is the beauty with this Tibetan Buddhism is whatever they’re telling they probably told hundreds or thousands of years ago but it is still absolutely practical today. And when we read this we will know, I’m not simply saying it when we read this we will know it. So it is perfect for us not to read as a Buddhist text but to read as a guideline for our living. And life, how do we live with it? So that’s why it is amazing, really. How much wisdom those people had. And how meaningful. I mean it is useful for old Tibetan and its very useful for Chinese and its useful for the western Europe and America and its useful for the Japanese people too, really.

0:48:16.1

So believe me, the author when he wrote this text he had no idea what the western culture is, he has no idea what the Japanese culture is, he had no idea and I can guarantee you the person in that life has not come to Holland! And no way of knowing the Dutch life. But it is very relevant to Dutch life today.

So I’d like to avoid the subject given to me. Because it’s not that relevant now. We can come back and talk about it too. What to talk about the kind master. The guru trip is very well known in the west. And nothing for me to add. They have already done it. I was a little too late. So if you have questions because a number of people are indicating they didn’t like it when I wanted to bypass that. So if you have questions I’ll be willing to spend a few minutes. I also ignore it, how important it is. And I also see how it bothers you. And that’s why I’m happy to spend time. Ok go ahead. Who’s the first hand raised? You…

0:51:20.3

Dutch

0:52:27.8

T: the point is that well we can read complete libraries full of spiritual book yet not make one step on the spiritual path so he can see it is important to have a spiritual guide there, somebody who know s the spiritual field and can make the selection for you to tell what is important now and what to do. Then on the other hand there is the risk that you, how to say this? To make too much of the person of the teacher, to make too big ideal of that. And the question is where is the border line between that? When is it still a healthy relationship with your teacher and when does it become unhealthy? When does it become a guru trip?

0:53:21.5

GR: Very good question isn’t it? Ed is a good friend. I’m going to be very frank, you don’t mind? You do, you don’t mind? You don’t mind. You do mind? Then I won’t say it.

(someone’s chair breaks, lot’s of commotion)

0:55:03.4

And when you say you can read and read and understand and study and made no progress without the help of guru you know to me that’s what I think is you’ve been completely brainwashed by Tibetan Buddhism. Chinese communists when they came when we stayed together for ten years they used to call us green brain. Our brain is green. So then they said you have to wash your brain and make it white. And then there comes the communist ideological doctrine comes in to wash your brain to make it white. So you’re brain is becoming green so better wash it.

0:56:46.1

A: that is not what I try to say.

GR: I know that.

A: ok

0:56:58.1

GR: but the real question comes, how much you will go and how much you will not depend on and that is your real question. And that is a big question, really. I do not know whether we really have an answer for that. It’s a big question. What I did in the west ever sine I came in the west what I did is you’ll find a slightly different than any western Tibetan Buddhist centers with the exception of Tarab Tulkus’ style but it’s almost everywhere you find slightly different. Everywhere I notice they make you stand up and fold hands and bow down and all of them they do. If I go to the other centers they do that. And I had the occasion to sit down and think with that. And it’s nothing. It’s simply told to these people to get up and fold hands, bow down, right? And there’s no feeling. And one very senior Lama who’s also quite well known in the west who died a number of years ago now came to visit me in Ann Arbor. I think it was the first or second year I was there. In a conversation he told me how wonderful these western people are. I said, oh? How do you know? He said well I’ve been in America from the Massachusetts to Hawaii, from that corner to the other. And all of them are so devoted. And he said Tibetans don’t do that. And especially young ones and the youth and western educated, they never do that. I said alright let’s find out. Then that was the beginning of the Jewel Heart in America that we don’t have so many people. We had like, what, 13, 14, 15 maybe 20 at the most at that time. And along with him there are a lot of people going wherever he goes from Massachusetts to Hawaii, there’s a lot of the going.

1:01:32.6

Maybe numbers in the thirties and forties moving along with him. That was Tara Rinpoche. He might have come to Europe, did he come here? He did come here. Tara, T-a-r-a. Tara Rinpoche. He might not have come here. Anyway then when he’s going to give teaching and everybodys’ standing up and folding hand and he’s going to give teaching and went towards the throne. There’s two old ladies standing by and doing like this (bowing, folded hands). So I asked them what are you doing? One of them said did I make a mistake? I said oh no, no, no. And I asked the other one what are you doing? And she said he is a nice guy so I’m trying to be nice to him. And another says isn’t that the Tibetan system? I said oh, yes, maybe. So at the end when it’s over then I told him these three ladies have three different ideas.

1:03:26.0

One is trying to return a gesture, a good gesture to you because you’re a nice person. The other is thinking it is a Tibetan culture she’s copying. The third was thinking it has to be the right thing to do. So if anything is wrong such as did I make a mistake she has that fear. So he got a shock. And he was really thinking they’re all totally devoted having absolute faith or whatever. So since then I decided in Jewel Heart please don’t stand up, please don’t bow I mean unless the Dalai Lama comes or something, you’ve got to. Otherwise don’t get up, don’t bow down. But many of them think, feel when they come they think a little bit funny you know? Nobody bothers them getting up and nobody bows down or they think it’s a little strange. And some people would love to do, just like to do it. I had a number of people say please let us do it because I love to do it. I don’t care whatever that is I love to do it. So I said no! You may love to do it but you’re disturbing other people. So out of that what did I learn? What I learned is free of the culture, free of that imposed and we sit down and talk and discuss rather than teach, one teacher to the other we talk. And then I bring my own background of teaching tradition I share that and then people try to follow it in their own life in their own way.

1:06:41.6

And then they experience the difference in their life. And when they feel and experience a difference in their life they will develop some kind of affection, love whatever you may call it. And that is the perfect seed of guru devotion. And that’s my learning. Is guru devotion easy? No noty at all. Not at all. It is difficult. Is it necessary? They say yes. Why? Because it’s the connection. The connection between the, let’s call it perfection, the connection between the perfection and now. And then also it depends on the guru. Some gurus are nice and kind, some gurus are ruthless and rough, maybe not but, you know. Some gurus have an agenda, personal agenda somwe don’t. And so all of them depends on the individual. It’s not the Dharma. It’s not the teaching. It’s the individual. So you’ll find that from guru to guru, it’s different. And that’s because of the personality of the individual person. But what should guru be? Now after all I’m hoping there will be a number people in the Netherlands here to be able to come out as a Buddhist teacher. Not only I hope but I’m looking forward, I’m eagerly waiting for people to come out. So from your point of view what do you need?

1:10:29.8

A, you need knowledge. B, the knowledge is not enough you have to have experience. C, you need compassion. D, you need openness, you really have to be open. You can’t live two lives together, you know what I mean? Did you get it? You have a hidden life and you have another life. You can’t do that. One thing I learned from Allen Ginsburg. I’m sorry I’m bringing Allen Ginsburg all the time. I’m not trying to show off Allen Ginsburg but one thing I learned from him is one day he’s doing a poetry workshop and I don’t know head or tale of poetry but I was there but I’m not participating to the side and tried to avoid and he sort of said instantaneous thought, instantaneous thought he was doing. So he suddenly asked people what are you thinking? Come out and say it. And that is, and he will give you an idea of poetry in the form of first thought best thought. So in that he just sort of simply asked the question. And he asked me what are you thinking right now? What is your thought, you know, what is your thought. And I suddenly started looking back at my thoughts. It was during the, in America there was trouble for one of those televangelist called Jimmy and Tammy Baker, they had big trouble there. It was that trouble, what was it some kind of guru abuse trouble. Let’s put it that way. They don’t call them guru, right? A televangelist but they had big trouble there. So that was during that period. So my thought was I don’t like to be in their shoes. And Allen said to avoid that to be everything open. That’s what I learned from there. So that is very important. If you’re not open then you have all sorts of problems that we’ve seen with all different gurus at the different times. Yep! So what we have to do is not to be in their shoes, in that shoe. And the key is to be open. That’s what it is. So I was told its time for tea break.

1:16:07.9

So Ed’s question still, how do you know? Well, I think you have to, even with your guru devotional practice you have to use a lot of your common sense. And actually the common sense is the best judge. And there are some people who think when the guru tells you to do something you have to do it. And that’s not true. (Tibetan) If you cannot do it you have to say I cannot do it. And if we have good reasons give good reasons. If you don’t have a good reason you just simply say I don’t want to do it. Really true, that’s good. That’s a good way of doing it, rather than making yourself do something which you don’t want to do. Don’t do it. So is there any other questions? You know I couldn’t get some questions so can you clarify a little more that she’s raising. A little later, you can talk to her then tell me the question. Marianne Mathieses you have a question?

1:18:33.2

T: Would you please tell some more about the different aspects that the teacher represents. For instance you represent the dharma because you teach but during an initiation you represent something else. Could you say some more about that?

1:19:08.0

GR: I don’t know whether you represent dharma or not. I think the Buddhist teachers represent Buddha. Because you’re carrying the Buddhas message and Buddhas ideas and you try to share that the best way to effect the individual. So you’re representing Buddha and also you’re representing Buddhists. And you’re carrying a dharma message. I don’t know whether I call it you are representing dharma or not. Ok, during the initiations each of the Lamas who give you the initiation the Lama himself has to be generated in the form of the particular yidam, whatever you’re doing there. Not only a form but the most important person in the mandala and then let the individual be in, let the individual be introduced, let the individual have the authority to work along with it and that is the different aspects. Any other questions? Yes, Barbara, hi!

1:21:51.8

T: You say that following a kind master is the foundation of all perfections as the verses say. Is her conclusion correct that it does not make sense to follow a Buddhist path if you don’t have a teacher? That’s the first question. There’s another question but that will be later.

1:22:11.9

GR: Very short answer probably yes. The reason is the Buddhist studies are and the developments are a living tradition not a sort of book knowledge. So if it’s book knowledge you can pile all the information, you can try yourself. And the Buddhist tradition and the developments that the individual has and being helpful is the backbones of the lineage. AS you know in Buddhism they will make a big deal about unbroken lineage. Because unbroken lineage becomes the backbone, the major support. Tsongkhapa says somewhere, (1:23:56.6 Tibetan) Sometimes when you try to listen you can’t understand anything. You try to read you don’t get a word. You try to memorize you cannot memorize a single word and when you try to meditate nothing is developing within you. The solution for that in that moment is guru. Because it’s the connection again. Since it’s a living tradition it is a living connection. I believe that’s the way it is. I don’t know whether that makes sense, whether we like it or not, I don’t know. That might be the reality. Any other questions?

1:25:43.6

T: So how does a guru become your guru? Do you just go to this person and say hey, do you want to be my guru? How does that go?

1:25:52.7

GR: Good question. Whoever has the biggest advertisement. You know in this country, I mean anywhere in the western European or what do we call it, developed nations, the most important selling point is advertisement. The more noise you can make the used car seller can sell more used cars. You know why I used the words used car seller because in the American expression used car seller means big liar. I don’t believe that’s the way. Nor somebody else tells you I’m your guru, that’s not the way. That certainly is not. So how do you select a guru? You have to know the quality of the guru. Criteria of a guru.