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1010

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Soundfile 19980429GRJHNLOTF07

Speaker Gelek Rimpoche

Location Netherlands

Topic Odyssey to Freedom

Transcriber Christine Brennan

Date November 7, 2021

Don’’t keep on thinking your own qualities and your own virtuous karma and all this, think of others qualities, think others good deeds and keep respect to everybody. These are the two basic principles one has to keep in mind. That is applicable to everybody whether you’’re a member of a group or the leader of a group.

Ok, having said that we better move to number, what is it fifteen now? Oh, sorry no, seventeen, ok. You have a question?

Translator: He said, the question is, is it necessary formally speaking to ask your teacher to become your teacher?

Rimpoche: I don’’t know. What we used to do in Tibet is when the teachers giving teaching like this and the way and how it was done in Tibet is not the way we do it in the West, it’’s different. Mostly teachings are organized by the benefactors, some wealthy person whether you’’re a monk or incarnate lama or family. In Tibet another funny thing is, there are a number of noble families, right? When one noble family asks some teaching from Rimpoche, the other will do another one, they have that. There’’s a handful of twenty of thirty families, they’’ll keep on doing that all the time, that’’s number one.

0:03:54.0 Number two is, the incarnate lamas institute [0:03:57.9 can’’t understand] each one of their institutes designates their own incarnate lama teachings, they will ask them too. Then there’’s business community which tries to compete with the noble families all that time, that is true. Then there are monasteries. So what they do is, the benefits make a request and they select the place where it’’s going to be and the date and then it starts there. The benefactors normally, what they called benefactor, because the benefactors normally pays everything, transportation, living expenses, stipend of the teacher and their retinue, not a salary but a stipend, a large amount of money. All the retinue and everything, plus how ever many thousand comes in, they at least give you tea and something to eat, bread, biscuit, some distribution of money. All of those, that is why that’’s the job of the benefactor.

0:07:06.9 So each and every one of us would individually ask, may I attend your teaching with the scarf and a little bit of money. Normally there used to be like ten or fifteen people sitting down there and each and everybody go and ask can I attend this teaching? Answer is generally yes, yes, yes. So there would be ten or fifteen people sitting there saying yes all the time. So that is how it works in Tibet. So once you attend the teaching, then you’’re part of it and that’’s how it works.

0:08:29.7 So here it’’s a different organization, sort of different. So I believe you may or may not necessarily have to be asking, each and every individual. Probably the, maybe the membership dues maybe indicating that.

Audience: [0:09:07.7 off mic, hard to hear] Last time you said that …… last time you said I think ... you were talking or asking about one specific teacher to guide.

Rimpoche: Normally what happens is specific teachers, you don’’t ask anybody would you be my principle teacher, you don’’t. We just sort of go and see wherever you’’ve been benefiting and you’’ll go here and there and sometimes you build a very special relationship with one spiritual master and you maintain that relationship and if that other person accepts you then it may become more important teacher, but no one will say no. By the way and how the individual is functioning you’’ll know whether they’’ve accepted. If you ask them, have you accepted me, they all [0:10:31.6 tape cuts out for a few seconds] accepted or not accepted because it’’s a Buddhist rule, if you say no you’’re going against your own tradition. So, you have to say yes, but [0:10:43.1 tape cuts out for a few seconds again] whether it is absolute yes, or it is yes it depends, you will know. So that is how we choose, traditional way.

0:10:57.5 Here in the West it’’s organized and I’’m in Jewel Heart, so when you’’re in Jewel Heart and you’’re benefiting, the message and information is coming from me. I don’’t remember what I said last time, thank you for reminding me. It’’s true, I’’m the house teacher, not the house cook. So it is slightly different than the traditional Tibetan way here, more or less the reasons why you pay the fee here, like the teaching, we call it workshop or we call it retreat, whatever we’’re doing we’’re doing the teaching, which is teaching is sharing the basis on the Buddha’’s experience. If you treat that as learning, as spiritual guidance, as making yourself work through, then it is perfect teaching. If you treat them as exploring possibilities, there’’s two possibilities, right? Two possibilities. So there are both, you can make it straightforward learning, developing, building a foundation, yes. If you’’re treating them as exploring, find out what it is, yes. When you pay the fee, probably that was the point where those fifteen people are sitting there saying yes, yes. It must be working the same way here. That is my simple thought, I don’’t know what to say otherwise, but it is a good question.

0:13:15.0 Mr Krause? Same thing I brought up to share, that’’s the same clause, right? [laughs]

Paul: I was thinking about something you said yesterday about perceiving a teacher, a spiritual master. Like do you perceive him as an enlightened being or human being or you said a dog. Now I have a question on this, whether I see a dog as a human being is this information he gives to me. When I see a teacher, I see his body, I see a human being. I have to, when I say he is an enlightened being, what makes the difference in the information I will perceive?

Rimpoche: [0:17:12.1] Anyway, it is a very good question. On the other hand, it is a silly question. You can receive information from the dogs if you know the dogs language. Otherwise you cannot. That’’s why it is used as an extreme example. They’’re saying that is used for extreme, extreme example, so do not take it too literally. Second part of the question, which makes your question very important, two possibilities [laughs]. Many of you don’’t know, we used to joke with Ed all the time, whatever you ask him he would say, two possibilities. One time when we went to Amsterdam and friends from America, Colleen was there, and we got off of the bus and now we have to go somewhere and it is the middle of the bus terminal. One bus going here and one bus going there and there’’s a danger, you have to move, but before you move we ask and he would go, there are two possibilities. Ever since then we tease him, two possibilities.

0:19:12.2 So here also, two possibilities. Possibility one, that the dogs language business, but the second point is very important. What makes you get information, so whatever it is the information is information, how does that make a difference to me? That is a question. This has been too much straightforward. You’’re simply thinking the information as a message and information, you’’re not thinking of the life behind the information. You’’re not thinking that. It is, if you get information from a book, if you get information from a person, if you get normal information, the same thing. But spiritual information is different because the value if that, and there’’s a blessing, there’’s a strength, there’’s a force behind it. This force behind it makes a difference. The force behind, it’’s normal American language, you know like E.T., the movie, may the force be with you. Like that. It’’s the force behind and the force behind is the value of the spiritual master, not only the simple information. That is, out of two possibilities, it is a good possibility.

0:21:41.0 Audience: But then you have an issue maybe, what, how do you say that? [some discussion in Dutch]

0:22:29.2 Translator: How do you know whether the teacher is an enlightened being or not? Is there a possibility to make sure of that or is it just a matter of accepting or not accepting that?

Rimpoche: If you can make sure it’’s great, but I don’’t think we have ways of making sure at all. So that’’s why I said perception. If you perceive as Buddha, you get Buddha’’s force. If you perceive as dog, you get dog’’s force. That’’s what I said yesterday. It’’s the perception, it’’s not, there’’s no way we can confirm. But on the other hand, it makes no difference. Whatever you perceive the spiritual master, it makes no difference to the spiritual master individual, doesn’’t make a single difference. You understand?

Translator: I understand.

Rimpoche: If the spiritual master is a stupid one, he or she will remain a stupid one, whether you perceive them as enlightened being, or monkey, or dog. That doesn’’t change a thing.

Translator: Yes, but I think the question is, how can you make yourself perceive……

Rimpoche: That’’s what I already answered.

Translator: Then it’’s a matter of faith. You take it or you leave it.

Rimpoche: Yes

Translator: But there’’s no reason to prove or to concern or to……

Rimpoche: No, no, no. It is a question of faith and a question of intelligent faith, not a question of blind faith. We give the qualities of the spiritual master yesterday, and these are the criteria that you can check, you can observe them. When you check and you can observe it, you may not know. The question that he raises today, he says how do I know that person is a fully enlightened? My answer is, no. In that case do I have to follow only faith? No, we give you ten plus ten qualities yesterday. These are for your consideration. You check with that, you understand and you investigate with this, you draw your conclusions, and then you follow. So it doesn’’t matter whether that person is fully enlightened or not, if they have the criteria that’’s in that, if they have that information, they have the tradition, they have the lineage, and it’’s working, fine. You are the investigator for the qualities specifically mentioned. You’’re not the investigator of the individual person or persons, so that is how we perceive. It’’s not blind faith, it is intelligent faith followed by investigation style. That’’s what it is.

The bottom line for this, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche used to say, [0:26:41.4] rang kin du la kyong min de weh chez, I’’m seeking this benefit and profit, I’’m not seeking loss and disadvantages. So if you want the benefit and profit of Buddha, then you might well as perceive the person as Buddha. If you want to loss of opportunity and losses, then you might as well perceive it as a dog, that’’s where the dog came in yesterday. So that’’s the bottom line information. I’’m sure there are a lot of questions now and I’’d like to close this and go down. Unless somebody had a burning question. Alfred had a raised hand, right?

Alfred: When I hear that [unclear] dog, it reminds me of the incident when Asanga was meditating and he found a dog and perceived him as Maitreya. So he carried him around [28:16:08 Rimpoche starts making disagreement noises as speaker continues, eventually drowning him out ] showing that’’s Maitreya and people.

Rimpoche: There’’s one piece that’’s missing, right? One piece is missing. Which one?

Alfred: He didn’’t perceive him in the first place as Maitreya, he couldn’’t perceive him as Maitreya until after he purified perceptive disturbances in himself and he licked the dog with his tongue and the worms and then he perceived him as Maitreya.

Rimpoche: You’’re right. So when he way carrying Maitreya around and he’’s perceiving that he’’s carrying Maitreya, he’’s not carrying a dog. But the people have seen the dog being carried around, only one old woman, nobody else. Everybody else thought he’’s running around saying I have Maitreya here, look, look, look. So everybody thought he stayed there twelve years in a cave and now he’’s gone crazy, I’’m so sorry. Very sympathetic. But only one old lady saw, why is he carrying a dead dog’’s body over there, why is he saying that’’s Maitreya? So the missing body is……

Alfred: [0:29:39.7] So to perceive a human being as a live being or an ordinary being, the difference is very subtle. As you say, it’’s extremely hard to objectively want to discriminate, so what can very easily shift to the perception of he is enlightened or he is not because the criteria is charged. I mean you cannot touch very much. So then is the dog perceiving as Buddha extremely more difficult? So let’’s say a lot of purification has been done or the ability of not sticking to any convention relatively whatsoever. So one would be able to perceive the dog as an enlightened being or to perceive the dog tooth as Buddha’’s tooth or whatever, then the function will be the same. So if you could be able to perceive the dog as an enlightened being you would have the benefit, but that’’s much more difficult than perceiving a human being as Buddha.

Rimpoche: You want to say it in German? [laughter] Or Dutch? For the benefit of those here.

[0:33:53.6] I’’d like to add one more thing here. When you’’re investigating the spiritual master you’’re not investigating whether he’’s an enlightened being or not. There’’s no way you can do that. We’’re actually checking whether that person’’s ok or not. Will he or she give me unnecessary trouble? True, this is how we do. Unnecessary trouble in the sense, sometimes some spiritual masters make you do something funny, you know and we don’’t want that. That’’s what I mean by unnecessary trouble. Whether that person has good knowledge and good understanding and good development, I mean you presume that person has development, but whether he is learned or he is saying the thing which goes in according [0:35:34.6 recording cuts out for a few seconds] I’’m not, that’’s what we check.

0:35:56.3 So then in case if he is a crazy one, in case he or she is a crazy one, can I tolerate? That’’s how we check. That is the investigation we do. Then we select. Ok, that joke you can do really truly, because there’’s no way you know whether this person is enlightened or not enlightened unless you are enlightened and if you’’re enlightened then you don’’t need the spiritual master because you’’re enlightened.

Another thing I’’d like to share with you here, it doesn’’t belong in this path but I’’d like to share it with you. About two or three months ago, a little over two months ago, one early morning, meaning seven thirty, it’’s early for me these days. I used to get up four or four thirty and now I get up ten or ten thirty or so. So now seven thirty is early in the morning. One early morning I received a telephone call and then I woke up took my machine out, I pick up the telephone, right half asleep. It happens to be one of the persons in Jewel Heart in Chicago. A woman who I’’ve been studying in Jewel Heart for over nine or ten years now. She said, well I have a question but I’’m so embarrassed to ask this question. No, no, no I should not ask the question, she said.

[0:38:44.9] So I said, well you woke me up already, why the hell not ask? What is it? She says I’’m so embarrassed, so say it. All right, here goes, how do I know if there’’s enlightenment? She says, ever since I know I’’ve contact with Tibetan Buddhism I’’ve been working for enlightenment, but how do I know? Mind you, it is extremely important question. The time that question was put to me, I’’m half asleep. Such a question has never been raised when I was brought up. So wow, it woke me up. I thought for a little while, and I have no answer. So I said, no we don’’t. We don’’t know whether there is enlightenment or not, we don’’t know. Truly, we don’’t know. So then the thought came up to me and saying what I’’m thinking, so then if we don’’t know, what are we doing? She didn’’t ask that, but that question comes within my mind, to myself. What are we doing? Why do we travel around all the time? Why do we try to talk to the people all the time? Why you have to say your commitments even if you’’re half asleep, half not asleep and why do you do that? But one thing that we do know is that the improvement within the individual. We can see the individual is more gentle, kinder, better.

[0:42:07.3] Whether it is due to maturity of age or exposure or Buddhism or whatever it might be. We see improvement within us. Every day, every week, every year, it’’s building up. That tells you there is unlimited way to go and improve, because it’’s not one improvement, not two, not three, but goes up and up and up which is indicating there is constant continually you can improve. There is such a room. When it becomes no more and then that’’s called enlightenment. So judging from our personal way of improving, you cannot deny there is no enlightenment because we see it. But if you try to see is enlightenment real or not real, it’’s hard to understand, hard to get it. So that’’s what I’’d like to share with you so that judging from our personal view there is room for improvement, so there must be an end of improvement which is probably called enlightenment.

[0:44:40.3] So those questions, that question, has been very good to me. It is important for everybody, so I try to share with people so that we can get a sense of what we’’re really looking for, enlightenment you know.

I haven’’t done a single thing today and now it’’s twelve. [Recording stops]

[0:45:45.4] Where are we? Seventeen. Invest human life. Now the question rises, whether if it’’s my life is worthwhile or worth less or useless. It’’s very hard for some people to see the value of life. Many people think, I’’m useless. Many will think, I’’m hopeless. Like, I know nothing, and I’’m this, and I’’m stupid and all sorts of things. I’’m new, I’’m know nothing about it, I don’’t get it, I’’m stupid, I’’m sick, I’’m old, I’’m young. All sorts of excuses people will think and say that there’’s no value in life.

0:47:49.2 So when you think of not having value, it is absolutely wrong and every human being, every human being has their own value. You know it, I know it, we all know it. Most of the people who think that I’’m useless and I’’m hopeless are more or less having some kind of mental problem. It is. Because when you sit down and think about it and say what you can do, you find a tremendous amount of what you can do. You can do a lot of things for yourself, you can do a lot of things for others, you can do lots of things for your children, you can do a lot of things for your country, you can do a lot. You can do a lot of things for the world and you can make a difference, yet still you would like to stay I am hopeless and helpless. It is absolutely wrong idea that meant to be negated at this level.

0:50:13.5 So that idea is to be negated. By negating that idea what you accept in is appreciation and embracing. You don’’t want to compare your own capability with someone else who has better capability than us, to gain the appreciation. But if you compare with your life with someone who is lesser fortunate than you, or handicapped, mentally handicapped, and then you see the difference. The problem why we don’’t recognize it is because we’’re taking it for granted. You say, oh I’’m not handicapped, so why should I compare with someone handicapped, but I’’m not good. People have that. That’’s because we are not thinking properly. It is a big problem for a lot of people. Traditionally the traditional teachings will tell you the life what we have has eighteen qualities. Eight of them are called leisure, and ten of them count as opportunity. So leisure and opportunity they count eighteen qualities here.

0:53:04.9 Which I am not going to go through the detail here of the eighteen because you’’ll find them in Lam Rim courses. You’’ll find them in introductory course. You’’ll find them in all different books and everywhere it’’s available so leave it from there you can pick it up. But the bottom line is, realize how important this life is. The importance of this life is connected with the capability of what we can do. There is no limit in human capacity and capability, right? What we call scientific achievement is human achievement. I believe that Einstein was a human being, not a god. Sort of the Rembrandt, this is Holland, right? All of those, the great artists, great scientists, great poets, all those great people, they’’re all human beings. Basically the life that we have they have, what they have we have. Even the brain, I don’’t think their brain is bigger, otherwise it will not fit in here, right? If it’’s too big it will not necessarily work better. Really, truly, the same capacity that Buddha had and what we have is the same capacity.

0:56:17.7 Why we cannot make it? It's not because of the fault of our life, but it's the fault of either you're not getting opportunity or you're not interested or you're not diligent enough. These are the problems. Otherwise, same thing that Buddha achieved, we can achieve the same thing. What is standing against is the laziness, not interested, not having the opportunity. So really if you look at the life that we have, it's almost capable of doing anything, unless you're handicapped, mentally handicapped. If you're mind is working well, even if you're physically handicapped it's not that bad. You can have a scientific achievement or you can have a spiritual achievement even if you're physically handicapped. Well, why should I say so much? Just look at, what is this guy?

Translator: Stephen Hawking?

Rimpoche: [0:58:35.9] Yeah, yeah. That genius mathematician. So that is the value of life. This life is capable even in that condition you can achieve this much. So whenever you think, I'm not good, I'm ugly, I'm short, I'm fat, in my case it's true. [laughs] Otherwise normally people will think that way, it is troubled thoughts. No one is ugly. Everybody has their own beauty, everybody has their own wonderfulness. Even short and fat people will also have his own good quality and wonderfulness, yeah. I very often suggest people, when they think they are worthless, valueless, look in the mirror and take off all your clothes because nobody else is watching, right? Don't do it when somebody is watching. When you take off all your clothes, stand in front of the mirror and look at yourself. Don't look, oh-oh I have a pimple here, not from that angle. Look from the basic life that your have, basically how wonderful you are, how beautiful you look. Each and every one of us have our own wonderful quality. Appreciate that. The mind of thinking, I'm useless, I'm hopeless, I'm ugly, my eyes are crooked, my mouth is sideways or whatever, all of them, you will look carefully and you'll see with your own eyes and you'll appreciate these exaggerated depression inviting minds are meaningless and are not true. You can come from that by yourself looking in the mirror and you'll see it as physical aspects of yourself and you'll appreciate with that.

1:01:48.3 So does mentally. The mirror over here for the mental mirror is the dharma teaching. The presentation of the spiritual path. This is reflecting your mind. So you look at yourself in that, get the reflection out of that, find out whether you're doing ok or not ok and appreciate what you you did ok and try to redouble your efforts where you have to correct it.

Bottom line, compare with other lives as a human being on one side and then compare it with any animals. The pet dog you keep, whether it is a chihuahua or Lhasa Apso or German shepherd or bulldog or whatever. The cats that you have, the cockroach you have in your house, the mice that pops in all the time, uninvited guest. Compare with all of them and compare with our life. The question does not rise, we have a tremendous value in our life.

1:04:58.9 Traditional teaching will tell you, they give you eight liesures.

They say if you're an animal today what would you do? It's true, what can you do? Though many people will think, my pet, my dog, my cat or my snake whatever it might be, think oh it's very intelligent and wonderful. Fine. It's ok. Give your car key and send to buy a carton of milk. They can't do it. But you can do it. That's what I mean. All values are like that, immaterial. Some people think, well I can't take that any more so I'm going to cut my life short. Many people think that way. The problem is you're trying to escape from life and your escape a very short period. After a few hours later you'll be in an even more difficult situation than you're already in. One has to remember those and appreciate life.

1:07:13.5 Now from the spiritual point of view, this life that we have today and life what Buddha had makes no difference. Or for that matter, any great matters in any tradition, there's nobody else, it is all human beings who have achieved. It's the same thing. It's the same thing with everybody. You understand? Can you think? Really. What we are lacking is opportunity and efforts, otherwise it's the same thing. We have opportunity. We somehow, fortunate, I don't know what, by shared incident or whatever we happen to be able to meet with this sort of teaching that will be capable of delivering total liberation.

1:08:56.4 And not only, not only capable of liberation but with Vajrayana it becomes real and true and it materializes. That opportunity is extremely rare. One of the Panchen Lamas, I forgot whether second or third, was giving a teaching in Tibet and telling people how difficult it is to find such a qualitative life. So one of the Chinese benefactors who happens to be attending his teaching and got up and with folded hand in Chinese style, with folded hands he said, excuse me you have not seen China that's why you have not seen inner human beings. So the idea is that not ever human beings have the opportunity. We do. But if you look at your companions or your friend or your children or your whatever, you try to bring them to opportunity they're not interested. They don't want it. You go all sorts of way try to push them and bring them and fight and cry or whatever you do when they don't have the opportunity they won't come.

1:11:31.9 So it is showing you, you have opportunity but that one doesn't have opportunity. The opportunity is not only been provided but it's also the willingness of accepting it. 99.9% of human beings in the world have no interest on spiritual path. It's true. But it is only one percent have the interest and those also too kind of usual Sunday service or Shabbat or something which cuts down to thirty, forty, fifty percent out of that, all this. Out of one percent, you know?

Translator: Of those one percent, half will go to church?

Rimpoche: No, going church is nothing wrong. But you know, spiritual path is only going Sunday church and if that is the only spiritual path, that's not enough. Sort of lot of people will be cut in that. A lot of them do that and nothing else.

1:13:20.7 So then there's just a few percent left. Among them many are interested in soup. Ready-made chicken bouillon dropped in the glass of water, right? So which is ready-made package of some kind of rituals and practices and whatever it is, bring it and put a little water and give you a chicken bouillon soup. So you have something from Native Americans, something from Hindu, something from Buddhism, something from Mayans, something from Shamanism, something from everywhere and then put them in together, put water and that's it. Look to those people, when you look more and more to those people that put so much efforts, they're trying their best, but their delusions don't go down. Not only are the Buddhists better either, not the Buddhists better either.

1:15:35.5 You'll find among the Buddhists so many of them for so many years they put together and they become more arrogant, they have a practice, their egos build up bigger than Mount Everest, really. You find them among them. They think, I know everything nobody else knows anything so I can say whatever I want to because I know everything. Unless you become enlightened, you know nothing. You don't know anything, truly speaking. We are fortunate enough not to have that Mount Everest sized pride. Now we have to make sure that we perceive ourselves not as useless hopeless, just be right, kind, intelligent, educated, open minded, perfect human being.

1:17:55.1 I say open minded, it's important. If you're not open minded you will block all information out and you receive only one information from one source only. Sometimes it makes your life easier, you don't have to worry much, but it is a most terrible thing because you can really the wrong information and only wrong information, nothing else. Even if it is right information, even then you should get from different sources. Gandhi emphasized this so much. So much so that in India in New Delhi all in the radio there's Gandhi verses written in Hindi near the door, huge. I don't know how to read Hindi well, but the essence of the message it says, if you shut all your windows you will suffocate, but if you open your windows the air will come in it purifies by itself and it becomes freshness, bring the freshness by itself. This is the idea. You have to receive all the information. You don't want to block information at all. No matter whatever it may be, even radio, television, you don't want to be bombarded with thirty-second messages but you should receive information.

1:20:30.0 So that is important, and I'm not only saying when I say television and radio, but if you don't want to listen that's fine you don't have to open it but I'm saying that is not only the spiritual path, all of them should receive. Now for example, even our Tibetan Buddhist practitioners within Europe a few years ago remember Geshe Kelsang Gyatso took all the Dalai Lama's pictures down and threw them out and burned them in the fire in the middle of Piccadilly Circle with all these books and tapes. I disagreed with that totally. Now some people said, Geshe Kelsang didn't throw those books out and burn them out. And I disagree with that too. The main point is, we're not cult followers. You know the cult system is such a thing, they will cut all your information out. You get only one information believe it or not, that's all that makes it possible for you. Remember we're near the year 2000. It is possible to do that in 1700s, and we did a lot in Europe too. I have seen it many places around here, if you don't wear certain garment if you're a woman you had no other alternative accept join the fire.

1:23:27.9 You have to get a certificate of saying how much you weigh, right? So all of them are possible, it happened in two or three hundred years before. So leave it there, don't bring it now, we're in the year 2000. It is the twenty-first century, my god. Because we have the capacity to receive all the information, because we have the capacity to make our own mind up and that's why we had to be open.

1:24:28.0 Do not ever surrender. So not ever surrender your own intelligence freedom to anybody. I mean total freedom but more is the intellectual freedom, really never surrender it to anybody. Because that is our value, because of that we make a difference in our life. The basis of this is our life. So embrace, don't waste. Don't reject, don't bury under the ground by yourself. That is the most important point of this number seventeen. Is it seventeen? I covered eighteen, I covered nineteen. Good thing [laughs]. So otherwise I'll be stuck, right? So life, it is value and appreciate the rarity. We deal with the rarity, if you watch the people, how many people are interested to obtain enlightenment? I mean how many people do you have in Holland, what is the population here? Huh? Sixteen million, all right. So out of sixteen million how many people care to talk about enlightenment?

1:27:07.7 How many people really think of a spiritual path? Beside the usual Sunday church and usual church activities. Going to church and involving into the choir singing, etc, etc, it's almost become a social thing rather than spiritual for so many people, believe it or not. That's what I see. You do enjoy, though you complain when the hat comes in the church. You know when the hat goes around you complain a little bit but throw in something in there you enjoy and curse both, we all do. It is more or less becoming a social activity. Except you many pray a few minutes there. So otherwise it's more or less social. So you judge yourself out of sixteen million how many people really are in the spiritual path? How many of them are really have deep commitment to free yourself totally from sufferings? How many really want to help others? How many are really interested in that? If you look at it the number goes down and down and down and down. So we by chance, by sheer incident, some kind of fortunate somewhere hit it and that's why we happen to be here today. [Recording ends during translation].